...taking (or trying to take) ownership of what other people do? Isn't that a form of violating personal boundaries? Might it be similar to co-dependency?
Would co-dependancy similarities include you scolding Nathan_Jr and OldSkool, a few minutes ago, on what they should not do? ? ?
Or should I recognize that you have some kind of a waiver on boundaries?
*/*/*/*
Can you tell me what you accomplished with that string of posts from you immediately preceding this? Did you get Nathan_Jr's and OldSkool's straightened out?
And what did you accomplish in scolding me, again, that I am wasting my time. Were you wasting your time there, or not?
*/*/*/*
On the lighter side I also noticed that you didn't say anything about my bad writing skills in this latest posting frenzy of yours. Does that mean I am improving?
You wrote: Yes so we can divide your life into dispensations then judge you by the dispensation.
I suppose you could, but you could only do it well, if you had the right inside info on the timing of the most influential situations in my life.LoLI’m not so sure I have all that info.
My dividing TWI into administrations is for the shorthand notation as a time saver, and also it is for assisting me in learning patterns that characterize each different administration.
But in no way am I implying that individuals here had their lives molded to the same templates as TWI administrations.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
You wrote: It paints the Two historical and preceding wineskins (OW-2 and OW-3) as the problem. Not in my mind.I am still sorting out what the problem(S) were, and I know that some of them came from TWI-1.
The majority opinion among the active posters is that there was only ONE problem and that it was totally located in the pure evil anti-idol that VPW is depicted here often, and in every way.
I don’t entertain such a childish, and even cartoonish viewpoint.I think he contributed to some of the problems. But to lay everything on him means that all the other means the devil used are shoved under the rug.The adversary used many methods simultaneously and for years to bring the ministry into a meltdown in 1986, and continued to pummel it for years afterwards. I intend to not let those other things slide under the rug with a simplistic model of all-encompassing and pure evil VPW.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*
You wrote: It also is tremendously naïve and labels the latest OW-4 by the current president who does not weild the power. Two other positions there do. John Rupp. Chairman of the Board. Bill Greene. And the Emeritus couple Rosalie Rivenbark and Donna (what does she use as a last name now?)
Thank you. This is valuable information. I have been learning this slowly in small elements. I want to know these things so I know to whom I should write and phone.
I have noticed for decades that anyone connected with TWI that I have been in contact with will shrink in fear from me if I start talking about the “difficult subjects.”
One of the things they seem to be afraid of is that I might overwhelm them with my knowledge of ministry historical details or theological details, or that I might have a devil spirit and trick them.
The other fear they have is that they don’t have the authority to speak for the ministry, and should let someone else more qualified do it. They even have sounded like they were “acting under orders” to not get involved with anyone who has left the ministry.
This was largely absent in recent years as I have gotten to know some smart leaders on the field. But that is not so much the case with HQ... yet. I calling the switchboard 6 months ago, I sensed the same old fears with the operators.
So, I need to save myself time in trying to contact and get to know more about the upper management there.I need to know who is smart enough, and in authority enough to not have the fears I just mentioned, and able to handle detailed text from me and/or a detailed phone call.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*
I find this alarming, that Rosalie and Donna may be shadow top leaders. Why not be out in the open about it.
My working this topic tells me that a genuine ministry is a 5-senses extension of a gift ministry given to a member of the Body of Christ. NEVER does God give a gift ministry to a legal 5-senses corporation.But this is what “the ministry” came to mean, even in TWI-1.
But at least with TWI-1 and -2 it was pretty obvious from whom and from whose gift ministry the legal 5-senses corporation was an extension. But from whose gift ministry is TWI-3 an extension?Rosalie?Does she have a gift ministry?I know for sure she was a diligent worker, and that figures into the Biblical “helps and governments” the best I understand. But that isn’t a gift ministry.Has anyone looked in her wake, prior to 1986 to see massive blessings she gifted to individuals?If anyone did I did not hear about it. Not saying there was none; I just don’t know.
Now, in TWI-4, I need to know from whose gift ministry is the corporation now based and an extension from?
This not being able to pin down exactly who is who and does what in the new TWI-4 is driving me to find out the details are within the corporation. I will be seeking answers here.
Compounding all murkiness in getting an I.D. on who is in charge is a recent discovery (to me) of a whole set of Position Papers for TWI-3 and -4.At the start of this thread there was posted one such Position Paper, and then I later found dozens more, dating back to 2013.I had no idea these existed !!!They are each somewhat qualified to be called ONE HALF of an E.C.N. (Engineering Change Notices).
So this set of “½ ECNs” was good dt see, that TWI commits itself to a set of Position Papers.BTW, that is my name for them.They simply call them “articles.”
*/*/*/*/*
But now, back to the distressing murkiness of “who is in charge?”
It was pointed out by one poster on this thread (can’t find it now) that none of the Position Papers are signed or designated to an author. Who came up with them?Who signed them off?
It seems murky, and I wonder why.
No of course ALL the problems aren’t due to VPW. But the fact you can’t be honest about the ones that do exist indicate an unnatural attachment to the guys image. And the blindness to very clear commandments that Jesus was supposed to be sent to fulfill the law is astounding.
I am starting to look at what is your benefit to “playing dumb” in certain areas.
Like for instance thanking me for information that is 1 click away w/r to who the BOD are. While at the same time selling yourself as some great liaison to HQ.
Similarly the mark and avoid of the RnR folks. You steer very widely clear of knowing anything about that, but it was the main issue before the current group’s ascent.
To me the logical explanation is you have some form of unstated incentive to being that dumb.
I will manage. I mentioned this because sometimes I have some difficulty, due to the large number of people I debate with simultaneously.
I imagine other people, like new readers, may have similar difficulty. Putting a face to a poster's name will increase that poster's individual impact, and assist memories in an impersonal medium as a text forum.
No other readers don’t have an agenda. Especially new readers. They are here because of damage TWI caused.
Yes, that bothers me also. Worse, if LCM is on it, still.
These are major items when considering where my giving should go.
You know speaking of giving one of the Pharisee things I like to bring up is how those in high places enact this Pharisee law of corban.
Meaning they don’t pay a tithe off of their salaries on staff. And the excuse is the government. But at the same time they can sit in judgement of others regarding the same issues.
So in reality all the direct employees of TWI don’t have to live in the same environment that the volunteers do.
For most positions this balances out because staff means minimum wage. Oh except for the high positions which carry six figure salaries with no tithe burden.
What hypocrites! Can you see Jesus at the return calling them out on this? And using the term “whited sepulcres” like he did when Herod had them act outside the law while publicly speaking like he was carrying out the law?
Then also many of these Pharisees use their family money to advance them in a system they couldn’t otherwise. And work other ways they can own homes that they deny others from doing.
What hypocrites! Don’t you agree ?
Living contrary to the same laws and system that they judge others with.
Yes paying out what is pretty commonly calculated at well over a million USD out of the working man’s abundant sharing is evil. Yes not disclosing your books and making your Pharisee salaries public is evil. Yes paying Craig a higher wage than a schoolteacher for making teaching recordings for 5 people is evil.
These things aren’t rocket science. But they are hidden for the benefit of a few Pharisees.
Yes, to the website. I was at a large local TWI meeting for the 80th Anniversary video live-feed last October. They had all these people on stage, but most who were in charge were new names to me. I think I got a photo of some of them in the mail as their follow-up on my taking the PFAL-T class. Still, no real info on who is who. Donna was not on stage, I don't think. But I hear Donna's sister was? The only one in the new administration I recognized on the video was Joe Coulter, but I rarely spoke to him when I was at HQ. He worked on the farm, and I worked in the town of New Knoxville.
The great principle we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out.
Wait wait wait . . . if my spirit teaches my mind after being taught by Gawd . . . then my spirit is beyond my mind since it was taught and my mind wasn't . . . and I acquired this spirit with my mind . . . cause my mind was taught beyond the absent spirit?
And as my spirit teaches my mind it's putting thoughts there? Thoughts come from spirit? By talking between myselfs I am learning to go beyond what I have not been taught but actually have been.
So I read the Word to renew my mind (RMM) because . . . . wait why do I need this spirit?
The great principle we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out.
Wait wait wait . . . if my spirit teaches my mind after being taught by Gawd . . . then my spirit is beyond my mind since it was taught and my mind wasn't . . . and I acquired this spirit with my mind . . . cause my mind was taught beyond the absent spirit?
And as my spirit teaches my mind it's putting thoughts there? Thoughts come from spirit? By talking between myselfs I am learning to go beyond what I have not been taught but actually have been.
So I read the Word to renew my mind (RMM) because . . . . wait why do I need this spirit?
Holy Shonta! Your right and finally made it make sense so that I know that I know that I know that I know
You need this spirit to speak in tongues much, which is a mandatory requirement for receiving revelation, as is detailed on the Keys To Walking By The Spirit page of the Advanced Class syllabus.
You need this spirit to speak in tongues much, which is a mandatory requirement for receiving revelation, as is detailed on the Keys To Walking By The Spirit page of the Advanced Class syllabus.
It Is Written.
It IS Written . . . and if scripture interprets itself . . . what does my mind do when I am reading?
Our cat loves the laser pointer! But when it crapped out I used a non-contact temperature ‘Gun’ that has two dots for pointing where to read… two dots are too much for our cat…he does like a Keanu Reeves “whoa” and just stands there…so I cover one of the lasers with my finger and he’s back in the game…moral of the story - you can’t follow parallel cults.
Hi, chockful. You wrote: Edited 3 times to sound plausible. Not buying it.
Gosh, it sounds like you are desperate, again, to criticize me. I have NEVER heard anyone accused of editing too much, to sound too plausible.
Your criticism here is nearly the exact opposite of Rocky’s against my writing style.Maybe if you and Rocky compared notes you could bang out something that is more discouraging to me.I just feel sorry for you, spinning your wheels so hard to criticize like that.
*/*/*/*
chockful wrote: No of course ALL the problems aren’t due to VPW. But the fact you can’t be honest about the ones that do exist indicate an unnatural attachment to the guys image. -I have been open and honest about VPW causing some of the problems.Where I differ from you is I am not totally focused on VPW’s problems, nor do I feel a need to punctuate all my writing with repetitious moaning about all his problems.
Nor do I count all of his teachings as tainted by his problems.
Unlike most here, I believe that when VPW was in fellowship, he and God were able to be very efficient in working the Word and teaching it to us. When VPW was out of fellowship, that working relationship was seriously impaired.This same process, of God waiting for us to return to a rich fellowship with Him, so we can work most efficiently with Him.
I protest your insistence that the only way I can be honest is to ditch my carefully constructed paradigm, and then join you and the others with their confusion theology.
*/*/*/*/*/*
chockful wrote: And the blindness to very clear commandments that Jesus was supposed to be sent to fulfill the law is astounding. -I am not following you here. Maybe this needs re-writing.Which very clear commandments do you have in mind here?
*/*/*/*/*/*
chockful wrote: I am starting to look at what is your benefit to “playing dumb” in certain areas. … Like for instance thanking me for information that is 1 click away w/r to who the BOD are. While at the same time selling yourself as some great liaison to HQ. This, again, sounds like a desperation tactic: insisting I play dumb.What was only one click away were the mere names and maybe faces of the leadership, the same things I saw in the 80th anniversary video feed. It sounds like you did not read my response to someone else on this yesterday. What I thanked you for were the pieces of information that described their personality a little and their duties and methods.The names and faces meant nothing to me that were one click away.
*/*/*/*/*/*
chockful wrote: Similarly the mark and avoid of the RnR folks. You steer very widely clear of knowing anything about that, but it was the main issue before the current group’s ascent. -Absolutely no steering here going on. I only get a little bit here and there on RnR and it sounded kinda boring.Similarly to the above paragraphs, I knew none of the names involved in RnR except Bob Moynihan, and I had not interacted with him nor heard him speak since 1979.I have not focused much on RnR because it seems to have little bearing on what I want to do. Had he not passed away, I might have tried to contact him for first hand info, but I only have so much time to spend on all this.
*/*/*/*/*/*
chockful wrote: To me the logical explanation is you have some form of unstated incentive to being that dumb. -Try communicating with me better, and your logic will have a stronger base to it than guessing with extreme bias and a strong dose of ignorance of me and my goals. You are wandering in darkness like “some form of unstated incentive” that could be dispelled very easily with a little bit of conversation and a healthy dose of 1 Cor. 13
*/*/*/*/*
chockful wrote: No other readers don’t have an agenda. Especially new readers. They are here because of damage TWI caused. … You are here to blame them and us and whitewash. -I am not here to blame anyone, especially people ground up in the machinations of TWI. It may sound like I am blaming you and the others at times, but I am not. I always include myself in the list of people who failed to hear and act on VPW’s call to get crackin’ with the collaterals in 1985.I always include myself in the set of grads who gradually drifted away from the foundations and bought into false T.V.T. doctrines. I always include myself when I say that there were many things in the collaterals that were missed or that could not yet be absorbed by us.
Blame is not the game I am playing; it is solutions.Blame is excluded from E.C.N.s for a good reason: proper fixing of blame is impossible for us to do accurately, and it is not our job to try.But to objectively identify where problems happened, and then do something about it, are things we can do.
*/*/*/*/*/*
chockful wrote:
You know speaking of giving one of the Pharisee things I like to bring up is how those in high places enact this Pharisee law of corban. …Meaning they don’t pay a tithe off of their salaries on staff. And the excuse is the government. But at the same time they can sit in judgement of others regarding the same issues. … So in reality all the direct employees of TWI don’t have to live in the same environment that the volunteers do. … For most positions this balances out because staff means minimum wage. Oh except for the high positions which carry six figure salaries with no tithe burden. …What hypocrites! Can you see Jesus at the return calling them out on this? And using the term “whited sepulcres” like he did when Herod had them act outside the law while publicly speaking like he was carrying out the law? …Then also many of these Pharisees use their family money to advance them in a system they couldn’t otherwise. And work other ways they can own homes that they deny others from doing. …What hypocrites!Don’t you agree ? …Living contrary to the same laws and system that they judge others with. …Yes paying out what is pretty commonly calculated at well over a million USD out of the working man’s abundant sharing is evil. Yes not disclosing your books and making your Pharisee salaries public is evil. Yes paying Craig a higher wage than a schoolteacher for making teaching recordings for 5 people is evil. …These things aren’t rocket science. But they are hidden for the benefit of a few Pharisees. I distinctly remember Feb. 1976 when I started working at HQ. Howard Allen asked me how much I wanted to get paid. I was figuring on lowering my N.Y. income some, due to the lower rents and costs in rural Ohio.But Howard threw me an additional curve that made my head spin. He asked me if I wanted to have my tithing and abundant sharing taken out of my salary before the check is drawn, or do I want to give separately off the full check each time?It still makes my head spin a little thinking about that.
I know that lots of things were done wrong there, and may still be wrong.
I constantly remind myself and others here that VPW admitted in July 1977 that the whole ministry was focused and working toward a PFAL’77 goal that was NOTGOD’S WILL. That is what he admitted to, in front of at least 100 staff at lunch, when he aborted the mission of PFAL’77 being a replacement for the PFAL’68 film. So in my model of TWI-4, I include the possibility they have inherited some corrupt practices regarding money and leadership lifestyles and pensions.Yes, I see hypocrisy there.
Many judgements made revolving around tithing, giving , and monitoring the same, were horrendous.Just the constant issue of “what counts” for abundant sharing was so piddly and law like.I already asked the local leaders if the Blue Forms were still used, and upon hearing they were, I said please keep me off them. The Blue Forms are against my religion.
My policy, and I will tell TWI leaders this upfront: TWI-4 cannot demand my respect; they must earn it from scratch. Their connection to TWI-1 is merely legal and 5-senses, and I scoff at it being a smooth transition of power between the administrations. My policy toward TWI-4, nice and friendly they may be, is that they are guilty until proven innocent of all the horrors of previous administrations’ mistakes and sin.
I am willing to give personal money to local TWI believers, and to local leaders, BUT ONLY if they promise it wont go straight to HQ.I will not give money to TWI-4 until they prove themselves worthy of it.Just because they are nice and friendly now does not mean that they are smart and efficient, and good at hearing God’s still small voice.I will pay TWI-4 lots of attention, and tithe plenty of advice to them, but they have to open the money books to all (plus a few other things), before I would give money to them.
Blame is not the game I am playing; it is solutions.Blame is excluded from E.C.N.s for a good reason: proper fixing of blame is impossible for us to do accurately, and it is not our job to try.But to objectively identify where problems happened, and then do something about it, are things we can do.
. . .
Okey,
1) Where did problems happen? . . . . In The Way
2) Something to do about it? . . . . Leave The Way
The great principle we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out.
Wait wait wait . . . if my spirit teaches my mind after being taught by Gawd . . . then my spirit is beyond my mind since it was taught and my mind wasn't . . . and I acquired this spirit with my mind . . . cause my mind was taught beyond the absent spirit?
And as my spirit teaches my mind it's putting thoughts there? Thoughts come from spirit? By talking between myselfs I am learning to go beyond what I have not been taught but actually have been.
So I read the Word to renew my mind (RMM) because . . . . wait why do I need this spirit?
I enjoyed reading your explanation of twi's "GP," despite the dizzying effect it had on my neurons . Now if we can only figure out what Jesus really meant in John 16:13-15 so can can party hardy .
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
I enjoyed reading your explanation of twi's "GP," despite the dizzying effect it had on my neurons . Now if we can only figure out what Jesus really meant in John 16:13-15 so can can party hardy .
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Well from the verses, I don't see two spirits, Father speaking to newly created spirit.
I see Jesus speaking to a Spirit sent by Jesus, The Son. And the Spirit glorifies Jesus and all that belongs to The Father belongs to Jesus.
Ah. . . . . I see Trinitarian trickery . . . grab a concordance and some gloves . . .
Gosh, it sounds like you are desperate, again, to criticize me. I have NEVER heard anyone accused of editing too much, to sound too plausible.
Are you denying you can edit a paper with the intent of being deceptive? He11, the whole paper by Research Geek, which you claim is objective and you posted, three times is deceptive.
From the moment Research Geek claimed Saint Vic went to Princeton, he was working on deception. Most people would read Princeton and think Princeton University, not Princeton seminary, which is not even associated with the university, as the facts state.
36 minutes ago, Mike said:
Unlike most here, I believe that when VPW was in fellowship, he and God were able to be very efficient in working the Word and teaching it to us. When VPW was out of fellowship, that working relationship was seriously impaired.
So how do you know when he was in fellowship and when he wasn't? How do you know he wasn't out of fellowship the whole time?
41 minutes ago, Mike said:
Try communicating with me better, and your logic will have a stronger base to it than guessing with extreme bias and a strong dose of ignorance of me and my goals. You are wandering in darkness like “some form of unstated incentive” that could be dispelled very easily with a little bit of conversation and a healthy dose of 1 Cor. 13
This from the guy who's always whining about being misrepresented.
43 minutes ago, Mike said:
Blame is not the game I am playing; it is solutions.Blame is excluded from E.C.N.s for a good reason: proper fixing of blame is impossible for us to do accurately, and it is not our job to try.But to objectively identify where problems happened, and then do something about it, are things we can do.
You're just blowing smoke here. You and I both know what will happen the second you start criticizing the ministry. But hey, talk is cheap and my guess is that's all you'll ever do. Talk.
46 minutes ago, Mike said:
I will tell TWI leaders this upfront
Notice: I will. Future tense. You mean you haven't yet even though you're attending fellowship and taking the new improved class?
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Charity
Reading twi's article both was emotionally and physically sickening. It so reinforced the doctrinal and practical errors that robbed believers of having a personal relationship with God and Jesus Chr
Bolshevik
Rocky
Who among you (or us) might be strategic thinkers? Was Victor Wierwille a strategic thinker? (not necessarily a rhetorical question) Is Mike a strategic thinker? (rhetorical questi
Mike
Would co-dependancy similarities include you scolding Nathan_Jr and OldSkool, a few minutes ago, on what they should not do? ? ?
Or should I recognize that you have some kind of a waiver on boundaries?
*/*/*/*
Can you tell me what you accomplished with that string of posts from you immediately preceding this? Did you get Nathan_Jr's and OldSkool's straightened out?
And what did you accomplish in scolding me, again, that I am wasting my time. Were you wasting your time there, or not?
*/*/*/*
On the lighter side I also noticed that you didn't say anything about my bad writing skills in this latest posting frenzy of yours. Does that mean I am improving?
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chockfull
No of course ALL the problems aren’t due to VPW. But the fact you can’t be honest about the ones that do exist indicate an unnatural attachment to the guys image. And the blindness to very clear commandments that Jesus was supposed to be sent to fulfill the law is astounding.
I am starting to look at what is your benefit to “playing dumb” in certain areas.
Like for instance thanking me for information that is 1 click away w/r to who the BOD are. While at the same time selling yourself as some great liaison to HQ.
Similarly the mark and avoid of the RnR folks. You steer very widely clear of knowing anything about that, but it was the main issue before the current group’s ascent.
To me the logical explanation is you have some form of unstated incentive to being that dumb.
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chockfull
No other readers don’t have an agenda. Especially new readers. They are here because of damage TWI caused.
You are here to blame them and us and whitewash.
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chockfull
You know speaking of giving one of the Pharisee things I like to bring up is how those in high places enact this Pharisee law of corban.
Meaning they don’t pay a tithe off of their salaries on staff. And the excuse is the government. But at the same time they can sit in judgement of others regarding the same issues.
So in reality all the direct employees of TWI don’t have to live in the same environment that the volunteers do.
For most positions this balances out because staff means minimum wage. Oh except for the high positions which carry six figure salaries with no tithe burden.
What hypocrites! Can you see Jesus at the return calling them out on this? And using the term “whited sepulcres” like he did when Herod had them act outside the law while publicly speaking like he was carrying out the law?
Then also many of these Pharisees use their family money to advance them in a system they couldn’t otherwise. And work other ways they can own homes that they deny others from doing.
What hypocrites! Don’t you agree ?
Living contrary to the same laws and system that they judge others with.
Yes paying out what is pretty commonly calculated at well over a million USD out of the working man’s abundant sharing is evil. Yes not disclosing your books and making your Pharisee salaries public is evil. Yes paying Craig a higher wage than a schoolteacher for making teaching recordings for 5 people is evil.
These things aren’t rocket science. But they are hidden for the benefit of a few Pharisees.
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chockfull
Edited 3 times to sound plausible. Not buying it.
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Bolshevik
https://thewayinternational.com/operating-the-gift-of-holy-spirit/
The great principle we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out.
Wait wait wait . . . if my spirit teaches my mind after being taught by Gawd . . . then my spirit is beyond my mind since it was taught and my mind wasn't . . . and I acquired this spirit with my mind . . . cause my mind was taught beyond the absent spirit?
And as my spirit teaches my mind it's putting thoughts there? Thoughts come from spirit? By talking between myselfs I am learning to go beyond what I have not been taught but actually have been.
So I read the Word to renew my mind (RMM) because . . . . wait why do I need this spirit?
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OldSkool
Holy Shonta! Your right and finally made it make sense so that I know that I know that I know that I know
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waysider
You need this spirit to speak in tongues much, which is a mandatory requirement for receiving revelation, as is detailed on the Keys To Walking By The Spirit page of the Advanced Class syllabus.
It Is Written.
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Bolshevik
It IS Written . . . and if scripture interprets itself . . . what does my mind do when I am reading?
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Bolshevik
My spirit tells my mind and The Word interprets my renewed mind and the senses realm doesn't matter so don't mind it and the old man either.
It's like I don't need me at all.
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OldSkool
It's either in the renewal process or doing lo shontas...or both...
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waysider
Are those the only 2 choices?
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Bolshevik
I think he gave 3 choices. To consider more would be going beyond therefore they do not exist.
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Bolshevik
Wait . . . if I were to say . . . accidently . . . maybe . . . go beyond . . . is THAT getting revy?
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OldSkool
Not if you got the advanced class special.
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T-Bone
your mind just follows the bouncing ball
as we were trained in the PFAL class
here we see new students following along in the class
The Bible says this
wierwille says this about that
The Bible says this
wierwille says this about that
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Bolshevik
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T-Bone
Our cat loves the laser pointer! But when it crapped out I used a non-contact temperature ‘Gun’ that has two dots for pointing where to read… two dots are too much for our cat…he does like a Keanu Reeves “whoa” and just stands there…so I cover one of the lasers with my finger and he’s back in the game…moral of the story - you can’t follow parallel cults.
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Mike
Hi, chockful. You wrote:
Edited 3 times to sound plausible. Not buying it.
Gosh, it sounds like you are desperate, again, to criticize me. I have NEVER heard anyone accused of editing too much, to sound too plausible.
Your criticism here is nearly the exact opposite of Rocky’s against my writing style. Maybe if you and Rocky compared notes you could bang out something that is more discouraging to me. I just feel sorry for you, spinning your wheels so hard to criticize like that.
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chockful wrote:
No of course ALL the problems aren’t due to VPW. But the fact you can’t be honest about the ones that do exist indicate an unnatural attachment to the guys image.
-I have been open and honest about VPW causing some of the problems. Where I differ from you is I am not totally focused on VPW’s problems, nor do I feel a need to punctuate all my writing with repetitious moaning about all his problems.
Nor do I count all of his teachings as tainted by his problems.
Unlike most here, I believe that when VPW was in fellowship, he and God were able to be very efficient in working the Word and teaching it to us. When VPW was out of fellowship, that working relationship was seriously impaired. This same process, of God waiting for us to return to a rich fellowship with Him, so we can work most efficiently with Him.
I protest your insistence that the only way I can be honest is to ditch my carefully constructed paradigm, and then join you and the others with their confusion theology.
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chockful wrote:
And the blindness to very clear commandments that Jesus was supposed to be sent to fulfill the law is astounding.
-I am not following you here. Maybe this needs re-writing. Which very clear commandments do you have in mind here?
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chockful wrote:
I am starting to look at what is your benefit to “playing dumb” in certain areas. … Like for instance thanking me for information that is 1 click away w/r to who the BOD are. While at the same time selling yourself as some great liaison to HQ.
This, again, sounds like a desperation tactic: insisting I play dumb. What was only one click away were the mere names and maybe faces of the leadership, the same things I saw in the 80th anniversary video feed. It sounds like you did not read my response to someone else on this yesterday. What I thanked you for were the pieces of information that described their personality a little and their duties and methods. The names and faces meant nothing to me that were one click away.
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chockful wrote:
Similarly the mark and avoid of the RnR folks. You steer very widely clear of knowing anything about that, but it was the main issue before the current group’s ascent.
-Absolutely no steering here going on. I only get a little bit here and there on RnR and it sounded kinda boring. Similarly to the above paragraphs, I knew none of the names involved in RnR except Bob Moynihan, and I had not interacted with him nor heard him speak since 1979. I have not focused much on RnR because it seems to have little bearing on what I want to do. Had he not passed away, I might have tried to contact him for first hand info, but I only have so much time to spend on all this.
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chockful wrote:
To me the logical explanation is you have some form of unstated incentive to being that dumb.
-Try communicating with me better, and your logic will have a stronger base to it than guessing with extreme bias and a strong dose of ignorance of me and my goals. You are wandering in darkness like “some form of unstated incentive” that could be dispelled very easily with a little bit of conversation and a healthy dose of 1 Cor. 13
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chockful wrote:
No other readers don’t have an agenda. Especially new readers. They are here because of damage TWI caused. … You are here to blame them and us and whitewash.
-I am not here to blame anyone, especially people ground up in the machinations of TWI. It may sound like I am blaming you and the others at times, but I am not. I always include myself in the list of people who failed to hear and act on VPW’s call to get crackin’ with the collaterals in 1985. I always include myself in the set of grads who gradually drifted away from the foundations and bought into false T.V.T. doctrines. I always include myself when I say that there were many things in the collaterals that were missed or that could not yet be absorbed by us.
Blame is not the game I am playing; it is solutions. Blame is excluded from E.C.N.s for a good reason: proper fixing of blame is impossible for us to do accurately, and it is not our job to try. But to objectively identify where problems happened, and then do something about it, are things we can do.
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chockful wrote:
You know speaking of giving one of the Pharisee things I like to bring up is how those in high places enact this Pharisee law of corban. … Meaning they don’t pay a tithe off of their salaries on staff. And the excuse is the government. But at the same time they can sit in judgement of others regarding the same issues. … So in reality all the direct employees of TWI don’t have to live in the same environment that the volunteers do. … For most positions this balances out because staff means minimum wage. Oh except for the high positions which carry six figure salaries with no tithe burden. …What hypocrites! Can you see Jesus at the return calling them out on this? And using the term “whited sepulcres” like he did when Herod had them act outside the law while publicly speaking like he was carrying out the law? …Then also many of these Pharisees use their family money to advance them in a system they couldn’t otherwise. And work other ways they can own homes that they deny others from doing. …What hypocrites! Don’t you agree ? …Living contrary to the same laws and system that they judge others with. …Yes paying out what is pretty commonly calculated at well over a million USD out of the working man’s abundant sharing is evil. Yes not disclosing your books and making your Pharisee salaries public is evil. Yes paying Craig a higher wage than a schoolteacher for making teaching recordings for 5 people is evil. …These things aren’t rocket science. But they are hidden for the benefit of a few Pharisees.
I distinctly remember Feb. 1976 when I started working at HQ. Howard Allen asked me how much I wanted to get paid. I was figuring on lowering my N.Y. income some, due to the lower rents and costs in rural Ohio. But Howard threw me an additional curve that made my head spin. He asked me if I wanted to have my tithing and abundant sharing taken out of my salary before the check is drawn, or do I want to give separately off the full check each time? It still makes my head spin a little thinking about that.
I know that lots of things were done wrong there, and may still be wrong.
I constantly remind myself and others here that VPW admitted in July 1977 that the whole ministry was focused and working toward a PFAL’77 goal that was NOT GOD’S WILL. That is what he admitted to, in front of at least 100 staff at lunch, when he aborted the mission of PFAL’77 being a replacement for the PFAL’68 film. So in my model of TWI-4, I include the possibility they have inherited some corrupt practices regarding money and leadership lifestyles and pensions. Yes, I see hypocrisy there.
Many judgements made revolving around tithing, giving , and monitoring the same, were horrendous. Just the constant issue of “what counts” for abundant sharing was so piddly and law like. I already asked the local leaders if the Blue Forms were still used, and upon hearing they were, I said please keep me off them. The Blue Forms are against my religion.
My policy, and I will tell TWI leaders this upfront: TWI-4 cannot demand my respect; they must earn it from scratch. Their connection to TWI-1 is merely legal and 5-senses, and I scoff at it being a smooth transition of power between the administrations. My policy toward TWI-4, nice and friendly they may be, is that they are guilty until proven innocent of all the horrors of previous administrations’ mistakes and sin.
I am willing to give personal money to local TWI believers, and to local leaders, BUT ONLY if they promise it wont go straight to HQ. I will not give money to TWI-4 until they prove themselves worthy of it. Just because they are nice and friendly now does not mean that they are smart and efficient, and good at hearing God’s still small voice. I will pay TWI-4 lots of attention, and tithe plenty of advice to them, but they have to open the money books to all (plus a few other things), before I would give money to them.
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Bolshevik
Okey,
1) Where did problems happen? . . . . In The Way
2) Something to do about it? . . . . Leave The Way
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Charity
I enjoyed reading your explanation of twi's "GP," despite the dizzying effect it had on my neurons
. Now if we can only figure out what Jesus really meant in John 16:13-15 so can can party hardy 
.
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
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Bolshevik
Well from the verses, I don't see two spirits, Father speaking to newly created spirit.
I see Jesus speaking to a Spirit sent by Jesus, The Son. And the Spirit glorifies Jesus and all that belongs to The Father belongs to Jesus.
Ah. . . . . I see Trinitarian trickery . . . grab a concordance and some gloves . . .
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So_crates
Are you denying you can edit a paper with the intent of being deceptive? He11, the whole paper by Research Geek, which you claim is objective and you posted, three times is deceptive.
From the moment Research Geek claimed Saint Vic went to Princeton, he was working on deception. Most people would read Princeton and think Princeton University, not Princeton seminary, which is not even associated with the university, as the facts state.
So how do you know when he was in fellowship and when he wasn't? How do you know he wasn't out of fellowship the whole time?
This from the guy who's always whining about being misrepresented.
You're just blowing smoke here. You and I both know what will happen the second you start criticizing the ministry. But hey, talk is cheap and my guess is that's all you'll ever do. Talk.
Notice: I will. Future tense. You mean you haven't yet even though you're attending fellowship and taking the new improved class?
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Charity
Great metaphor - I think these students are just waiting for a missed hit so they can go chasing after the ball.
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