Does the Holy Spirit have a distinct existence making it a partnership or team of 3?
T-Bone’s response: yes, I believe so – going on how Jesus talked about Him in gospel of John 14, 15, & 16…thus we have a …dare I say it – a Trinity. TWI made that a dirty word. For me it’s just a clumsy attempt to explain something that is incomprehensible.
My two-bit analogy of how ‘the team’ works is as follows:
It seems to me that Jesus Christ is the star of the show. He draws us in. He is relatable. But every song He sings is about His Father. Like Father, like Son!
Ah, but no one usually thinks about the producer (the Holy Spirit). He is responsible for the overall sound of the concert. He supervises everything – makes sure it’s the perfect list of songs appropriate to this particular audience – somehow managing to have the words go right to the heart of someone – and to each and every listener it seems like there’s only two people in this venue – the listener and the singer on stage, Jesus Christ.
I do enjoy your input T-Bone,
This three part team, Father, Proginy . . . shouldn't there be a Mother? When God-Breathed into Adam the Hebrew word used was feminine, if I recall correctly. (ruach Elohim)
If you're going to use abbreviations while posting or writing, it's a good idea to spell the word or phrase out in full the first time, followed by the abbreviation in parentheses, to indicate what the abbreviation represents.
If you're going to use abbreviations while posting or writing, it's a good idea to spell the word or phrase out in full the first time, followed by the abbreviation in parentheses, to indicate what the abbreviation represents.
Like this: Great Principle (GP)
I've gotten away from doing this ..I'll do my part. Thx.
This three part team, Father, Proginy . . . shouldn't there be a Mother? When God-Breathed into Adam the Hebrew word used was feminine, if I recall correctly. (ruach Elohim)
If you're going to use abbreviations while posting or writing, it's a good idea to spell the word or phrase out in full the first time, followed by the abbreviation in parentheses, to indicate what the abbreviation represents.
Like this: Great Principle (GP)
Yeah thought I’d be ok with a contraction of the thread topic title but apparently not.
I don’t know if I can provide any definitive or satisfactory answers – all I know is to tell you how I go about it - - for me it’s a journey of self-discovery and connecting with others – driven and guided by thoughtful, prayerful, and practical use of Scripture and other inspiring works.
I don’t mean to be evasive – just being honest – I have no secret formula. I include Grease Spot Café in the connecting with others…In the 16 years that I have been coming here, my belief system has changed quite a bit – and it continues to be a lot more accommodating than when I was in TWI. The Bible and other stimulating books, music and art are essential for my sense of feeling alive, growing, and finding meaning. *I’ve listed a few books at the end that I’ve found helpful along with some hyperlinks for things to think about.
I copied your questions and have them in bold blue font below to distinguish your questions from my answers:
(A)Since all of the terms used in this part require a relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who is the Holy Spirit?
T-Bone’s response: for want of a better term, I would say the Holy Spirit might be considered the ‘workhouse’ of the ‘group’ – in that “the work of the Holy Spirit is to manifest the active presence of God in the world, and especially in the church…He is the one who is most prominently present with us now”, from page 634 of Grudem’s Systematic Theology – * see my list below.
I hesitate to say much about the Holy Spirit – and I’ll probably sound like leaders we’re all familiar with if I give some pat answer like “It’s just a walkto find out who He is” – but it goes along the same lines of your thread How does God work in us – we experience the Holy Spirit in our walk – our day-to-day handling of everything on our plate – and it’s different for everyone. I don’t think you can have a class on how God works in us. Gifts energized by the Spirit may feel like something so easy to do …you might think they come naturally for you – but gifts are supernatural – and evidence of God’s active presence in the world…in the church…through you! Covers a lot of ground.
The ministry presented a very limited palette to work with – take your pick – operate all 9 all the time and maybe you have a couple of gift ministries too…In an earlier post I mentioned passages that widened the scope of possibilities:
There are teachers who not only inform – but connect and inspire their students to learn…there are mental health professionals who do more than learn just academics and protocols – they empathize with their patients...there are people who simply enjoy being of service to others – they love what they do.
Something to think about - reconciling humility with self-worth (*see hyperlinks below) - kinda relates to our journey of self-discovery
~ ~ ~ ~
Does the Holy Spirit have a distinct existence making it a partnership or team of 3?
T-Bone’s response: yes, I believe so – going on how Jesus talked about Him in gospel of John 14, 15, & 16…thus we have a …dare I say it – a Trinity. TWI made that a dirty word. For me it’s just a clumsy attempt to explain something that is incomprehensible.
My two-bit analogy of how ‘the team’ works is as follows:
It seems to me that Jesus Christ is the star of the show. He draws us in. He is relatable. But every song He sings is about His Father. Like Father, like Son!
Ah, but no one usually thinks about the producer (the Holy Spirit). He is responsible for the overall sound of the concert. He supervises everything – makes sure it’s the perfect list of songs appropriate to this particular audience – somehow managing to have the words go right to the heart of someone – and to each and every listener it seems like there’s only two people in this venue – the listener and the singer on stage, Jesus Christ.
~ ~ ~ ~
(B)Since I Cor 12, 13 & 14 suggest a "working" relationship between the Holy Spirit and a believer, are we to have a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit?
T-Bone’s response: That’s a tough question! I never thought about that before…it’s odd that the Bible doesn’t tell us much of how to relate to God or the Holy Spirit – what the Bible shows us is that Christ is the key in all relationships:
New International Version The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Hebrews 1:3
Amplified Bible He is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible], the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation. Colossians 1:15
Therefore, if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
All the books above are a quick read – and I still review them periodically; if going deeper into theology is something of interest, you might want to check out
Thank you, T-Bone for your humility and honesty when sharing on GSC.Two verses came to mind after reading your post.
1) But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere (*simple) and pure devotion to Christ.2 Cor 11:3 (NIV)
*Bible Hub gives the Greek word for “sincere” as haplotés meaning singleness, hence simplicity
2)in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the **unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not *dawn upon them. 2 Cor 4:4 (ASV)
* Bible Hub gives the Greek word for “dawn upon” as augasai meaning beam forth
**I’m taking the word “unbelieving” and applying Rom 10:14a (NIV) to it: “How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?”
__________
Thank you, T-Bone for your humility and honesty when sharing on GSC.Two verses came to mind after reading your post.
1) But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere (*simple) and pure devotion to Christ.2 Cor 11:3 (NIV)
*Bible Hub gives the Greek word for “sincere” as haplotés meaning singleness, hence simplicity
2)in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the **unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not *dawn upon them. 2 Cor 4:4 (ASV)
* Bible Hub gives the Greek word for “dawn upon” as augasai meaning beam forth
**I’m taking the word “unbelieving” and applying Rom 10:14a (NIV) to it: “How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?”
__________
That is how I feel about most of my time in twi.I did not hear about a “sincere and pure devotion to Christ” nor did the “light of the gospel of the glory of Christ” beam forth. Instead their devotion to Christ was deluted to the utmost degree and the glory of Christ was obscured all because of their laser focus on all things "vp." Who orchestrated all this? Both verses reveal the answer – the serpent’s cunning and the god of this world.What does that say about twi?!
I trust Psalm 40:1,2 for deliverance from all things "vp": "I waited patiently for Yahweh. He turned to me and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of a horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings."
This three part team, Father, Proginy . . . shouldn't there be a Mother? When God-Breathed into Adam the Hebrew word used was feminine, if I recall correctly. (ruach Elohim)
I haven't read the article yet but the name of it makes me think of a few of vp's quotes from "The Way - Living in Love" that T-Bone posted earlier.
”The next morning, I still hadn’t left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel…a woman came over to me, and said, ‘I think God sent a man here to meet your need. Meet me at 9 a.m.’ I thought, ‘Women never tell the truth.’
‘There aren’t going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.’
then Stiles turned to his wife and said, ‘Honey, I’m going with VP.’ She said something to him like, ‘How long will you be?’ And he said, ‘That’s none of your business.’ That was it, my opinion ofhim as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes, just from the way he handled her.”
I haven't read the article yet but the name of it makes me think of a few of vp's quotes from "The Way - Living in Love" that T-Bone posted earlier.
”The next morning, I still hadn’t left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel…a woman came over to me, and said, ‘I think God sent a man here to meet your need. Meet me at 9 a.m.’ I thought, ‘Women never tell the truth.’
‘There aren’t going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.’
then Stiles turned to his wife and said, ‘Honey, I’m going with VP.’ She said something to him like, ‘How long will you be?’ And he said, ‘That’s none of your business.’ That was it, my opinion ofhim as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes, just from the way he handled her.”
What a mean male chauvinist pig he was.
Well..I don't know specifically what did or didn't happen that day but when u connect the dots vpw excluded his wife often enough cause he was a serial adulterer at best...I'm being nice.
I don’t know if I can provide any definitive or satisfactory answers – all I know is to tell you how I go about it - - for me it’s a journey of self-discovery and connecting with others – driven and guided by thoughtful, prayerful, and practical use of Scripture and other inspiring works.
I don’t mean to be evasive – just being honest – I have no secret formula. I include Grease Spot Café in the connecting with others…In the 16 years that I have been coming here, my belief system has changed quite a bit – and it continues to be a lot more accommodating than when I was in TWI. The Bible and other stimulating books, music and art are essential for my sense of feeling alive, growing, and finding meaning. *I’ve listed a few books at the end that I’ve found helpful along with some hyperlinks for things to think about.
I copied your questions and have them in bold blue font below to distinguish your questions from my answers:
(A)Since all of the terms used in this part require a relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who is the Holy Spirit?
T-Bone’s response: for want of a better term, I would say the Holy Spirit might be considered the ‘workhouse’ of the ‘group’ – in that “the work of the Holy Spirit is to manifest the active presence of God in the world, and especially in the church…He is the one who is most prominently present with us now”, from page 634 of Grudem’s Systematic Theology – * see my list below.
I hesitate to say much about the Holy Spirit – and I’ll probably sound like leaders we’re all familiar with if I give some pat answer like “It’s just a walkto find out who He is” – but it goes along the same lines of your thread How does God work in us – we experience the Holy Spirit in our walk – our day-to-day handling of everything on our plate – and it’s different for everyone. I don’t think you can have a class on how God works in us. Gifts energized by the Spirit may feel like something so easy to do …you might think they come naturally for you – but gifts are supernatural – and evidence of God’s active presence in the world…in the church…through you! Covers a lot of ground.
The ministry presented a very limited palette to work with – take your pick – operate all 9 all the time and maybe you have a couple of gift ministries too…In an earlier post I mentioned passages that widened the scope of possibilities:
There are teachers who not only inform – but connect and inspire their students to learn…there are mental health professionals who do more than learn just academics and protocols – they empathize with their patients...there are people who simply enjoy being of service to others – they love what they do.
Something to think about - reconciling humility with self-worth (*see hyperlinks below) - kinda relates to our journey of self-discovery
~ ~ ~ ~
Does the Holy Spirit have a distinct existence making it a partnership or team of 3?
T-Bone’s response: yes, I believe so – going on how Jesus talked about Him in gospel of John 14, 15, & 16…thus we have a …dare I say it – a Trinity. TWI made that a dirty word. For me it’s just a clumsy attempt to explain something that is incomprehensible.
My two-bit analogy of how ‘the team’ works is as follows:
It seems to me that Jesus Christ is the star of the show. He draws us in. He is relatable. But every song He sings is about His Father. Like Father, like Son!
Ah, but no one usually thinks about the producer (the Holy Spirit). He is responsible for the overall sound of the concert. He supervises everything – makes sure it’s the perfect list of songs appropriate to this particular audience – somehow managing to have the words go right to the heart of someone – and to each and every listener it seems like there’s only two people in this venue – the listener and the singer on stage, Jesus Christ.
~ ~ ~ ~
(B)Since I Cor 12, 13 & 14 suggest a "working" relationship between the Holy Spirit and a believer, are we to have a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit?
T-Bone’s response: That’s a tough question! I never thought about that before…it’s odd that the Bible doesn’t tell us much of how to relate to God or the Holy Spirit – what the Bible shows us is that Christ is the key in all relationships:
New International Version The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Hebrews 1:3
Amplified Bible He is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible], the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation. Colossians 1:15
Therefore, if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
All the books above are a quick read – and I still review them periodically; if going deeper into theology is something of interest, you might want to check out
One of the sub links is to The Holy Spirit link on Wikipedia which also provides a great summation of mainstream Christianity views on The Holy Spirit.
From my perspective a 3 member Godhead makes sense. 3 is the basic unit of either a family or an organization. 3 points form a triangle a stable structure for building. The American government in 3 parts provides a reasonable balance of power example in the modern world.
Spirit typically as a concept involves a higher level learning than just a mental learning. Whether a 2 or 3 part person is what a group believes, the concept itself would direct towards a higher level life than an animal. You would expect thought, advanced concepts with society, advanced morals and ethics.
Power and purification would be two terms immediately evident together with Holy Spirit. He is also referred to as the Paraclete, or Comforter.
We see Him directly at direct points like when John baptized Jesus. Pentecost. Pivotal times in history.
I don’t think it would be blasphemy to include Him in prayer or conversation. But from my dumb imagery He is more like the silent fire wielder or the energizing comfort in life.
There I’m sure that’s all out there enough for them to do an Advanced Class (AC) grad session on me. Lol.
But I am working out my own salvation along with all of you in scripture reading and discussion.
I post from a phone mostly so don’t tend to cut and paste in stuff from my Bible software most of time.
I haven't read the article yet but the name of it makes me think of a few of vp's quotes from "The Way - Living in Love" that T-Bone posted earlier.
”The next morning, I still hadn’t left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel…a woman came over to me, and said, ‘I think God sent a man here to meet your need. Meet me at 9 a.m.’ I thought, ‘Women never tell the truth.’
‘There aren’t going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.’
then Stiles turned to his wife and said, ‘Honey, I’m going with VP.’ She said something to him like, ‘How long will you be?’ And he said, ‘That’s none of your business.’ That was it, my opinion ofhim as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes, just from the way he handled her.”
What a mean male chauvinist pig he was.
Yes the misogyny is quite evident in that account. Also the lying. A group of 8 ministers got together at JE Stiles request to minister the Holy Spirit to VP. They tried to lead him into SIT. But he faked it and lied to them by quoting a small section of NT Greek then OT Hebrew from Genesis. He never confessed to making it up to them.
Stiles had bragged that he led over 10,000 people into SIT in his ministry. Maybe that was his thing his gift ministry his specialty.
That was more motive for VP to copy his book. Standing on the shoulders of giants while maintaining one hand in their pockets.
This three part team, Father, Proginy . . . shouldn't there be a Mother? When God-Breathed into Adam the Hebrew word used was feminine, if I recall correctly. (ruach Elohim)
In most mythology the gods are a family. I am not sure if that is the same as the triune Godhead concept at all. Unless father/mother covered the same portion of the Godhead which sounds logical also like the feminine Hebrew references in that link. They would be the conceptual diversion from the existing mythology.
That is how I feel about most of my time in twi.I did not hear about a “sincere and pure devotion to Christ” nor did the “light of the gospel of the glory of Christ” beam forth.
Just to help me sort things out, could you tell us what years you were in TWI?
One reason I ask is because I did hear about those things in the 1970s with TWI-1.
TWI-2 = (Craig) started slow at 1982, but was fully functioning by 1985.
TWI-3 = (Rosalie) started around 2000.
TWI-4 = (Vern Edwards) started about 4 or 5 years ago.
I haven't read the article yet but the name of it makes me think of a few of vp's quotes from "The Way - Living in Love" that T-Bone posted earlier.
”The next morning, I still hadn’t left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel…a woman came over to me, and said, ‘I think God sent a man here to meet your need. Meet me at 9 a.m.’ I thought, ‘Women never tell the truth.’
‘There aren’t going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.’
then Stiles turned to his wife and said, ‘Honey, I’m going with VP.’ She said something to him like, ‘How long will you be?’ And he said, ‘That’s none of your business.’ That was it, my opinion ofhim as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes, just from the way he handled her.”
What a mean male chauvinist pig he was.
I've speculated VPW had an abusive mother. Maybe she was a free spirit?
Just to help me sort things out, could you tell us what years you were in TWI?
One reason I ask is because I did hear about those things in the 1970s with TWI-1.
TWI-2 = (Craig) started slow at 1982, but was fully functioning by 1985.
TWI-3 = (Rosalie) started around 2000.
TWI-4 = (Vern Edwards) started about 4 or 5 years ago.
Yes so we can divide your life into dispensations then judge you by the dispensation.
It supports the underlying view of the free hippy love 70s times being the true Christianity that all of the Old Wineskin 4 (OW-4) leaders are now returning to by being laid back and cool and allowing metal vocals on stage.
It paints the Two historical and preceding wineskins (OW-2 and OW-3) as the problem.
It also is tremendously naïve and labels the latest OW-4 by the current president who does not weild the power. Two other positions there do. John Rupp. Chairman of the Board. Bill Greene. And the Emeritus couple Rosalie Rivenbark and Donna (what does she use as a last name now?)
Vern Edwards is a laid back and cool looking front man though.
BUT
doesnt change the fact that all of the old wineskins happened under the
In most mythology the gods are a family. I am not sure if that is the same as the triune Godhead concept at all. Unless father/mother covered the same portion of the Godhead which sounds logical also like the feminine Hebrew references in that link. They would be the conceptual diversion from the existing mythology.
I've toyed with the idea that religion and politics are reflections of the family structures of that population. If most of a population is raised under a certain type of family, their psychology will develop in that environment, and the religion and government will grow from that.
Maybe a little chicken and egg going on, but seeing your family in government and your gods is interesting, imo
I've speculated VPW had an abusive mother. Maybe she was a free spirit?
Could be. This meeting with Stiles happened in the late 50's or early 60's I think. It was more common for men, religious or not, to have that dominating, controlling or oppressive attitude toward women. But the book, The Way-Living in Love, was printed in 1972 and he purposely added those demeaning beliefs about women in at that time when they had nothing to do with his topic of speaking in tongues. It's just so revealing that this was the same man who drugged and raped, sexually used and abused women and yet was still idolized by thousands of unknowing people. So much spiritual darkness.
Could be. This meeting with Stiles happened in the late 50's or early 60's I think. It was more common for men, religious or not, to have that dominating, controlling or oppressive attitude toward women. But the book, The Way-Living in Love, was printed in 1972 and he purposely added those demeaning beliefs about women in at that time when they had nothing to do with his topic of speaking in tongues. It's just so revealing that this was the same man who drugged and raped, sexually used and abused women and yet was still idolized by thousands of unknowing people. So much spiritual darkness.
That was years before I was born.
I have not known women to be less abusive than men in general. Marriage rates have declined because there's no incentive for anyone to do something so limiting and destructive.
It sounds like VPW is speaking to the fourth wall, and said what he thought others would be drawn too.
I don’t know if I can provide any definitive or satisfactory answers – all I know is to tell you how I go about it - - for me it’s a journey of self-discovery and connecting with others – driven and guided by thoughtful, prayerful, and practical use of Scripture and other inspiring works.
I don’t mean to be evasive – just being honest – I have no secret formula. I include Grease Spot Café in the connecting with others…In the 16 years that I have been coming here, my belief system has changed quite a bit – and it continues to be a lot more accommodating than when I was in TWI. The Bible and other stimulating books, music and art are essential for my sense of feeling alive, growing, and finding meaning. *I’ve listed a few books at the end that I’ve found helpful along with some hyperlinks for things to think about.
I copied your questions and have them in bold blue font below to distinguish your questions from my answers:
(A)Since all of the terms used in this part require a relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who is the Holy Spirit?
T-Bone’s response: for want of a better term, I would say the Holy Spirit might be considered the ‘workhouse’ of the ‘group’ – in that “the work of the Holy Spirit is to manifest the active presence of God in the world, and especially in the church…He is the one who is most prominently present with us now”, from page 634 of Grudem’s Systematic Theology – * see my list below.
I hesitate to say much about the Holy Spirit – and I’ll probably sound like leaders we’re all familiar with if I give some pat answer like “It’s just a walkto find out who He is” – but it goes along the same lines of your thread How does God work in us – we experience the Holy Spirit in our walk – our day-to-day handling of everything on our plate – and it’s different for everyone. I don’t think you can have a class on how God works in us. Gifts energized by the Spirit may feel like something so easy to do …you might think they come naturally for you – but gifts are supernatural – and evidence of God’s active presence in the world…in the church…through you! Covers a lot of ground.
The ministry presented a very limited palette to work with – take your pick – operate all 9 all the time and maybe you have a couple of gift ministries too…In an earlier post I mentioned passages that widened the scope of possibilities:
There are teachers who not only inform – but connect and inspire their students to learn…there are mental health professionals who do more than learn just academics and protocols – they empathize with their patients...there are people who simply enjoy being of service to others – they love what they do.
Something to think about - reconciling humility with self-worth (*see hyperlinks below) - kinda relates to our journey of self-discovery
~ ~ ~ ~
Does the Holy Spirit have a distinct existence making it a partnership or team of 3?
T-Bone’s response: yes, I believe so – going on how Jesus talked about Him in gospel of John 14, 15, & 16…thus we have a …dare I say it – a Trinity. TWI made that a dirty word. For me it’s just a clumsy attempt to explain something that is incomprehensible.
My two-bit analogy of how ‘the team’ works is as follows:
It seems to me that Jesus Christ is the star of the show. He draws us in. He is relatable. But every song He sings is about His Father. Like Father, like Son!
Ah, but no one usually thinks about the producer (the Holy Spirit). He is responsible for the overall sound of the concert. He supervises everything – makes sure it’s the perfect list of songs appropriate to this particular audience – somehow managing to have the words go right to the heart of someone – and to each and every listener it seems like there’s only two people in this venue – the listener and the singer on stage, Jesus Christ.
~ ~ ~ ~
(B)Since I Cor 12, 13 & 14 suggest a "working" relationship between the Holy Spirit and a believer, are we to have a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit?
T-Bone’s response: That’s a tough question! I never thought about that before…it’s odd that the Bible doesn’t tell us much of how to relate to God or the Holy Spirit – what the Bible shows us is that Christ is the key in all relationships:
New International Version The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Hebrews 1:3
Amplified Bible He is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible], the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation. Colossians 1:15
Therefore, if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
All the books above are a quick read – and I still review them periodically; if going deeper into theology is something of interest, you might want to check out
I remember going through something similar to this on “the absent Christ (TAC)” thread concerning how during my way ministry (twi) years I had come to minimize Christ in my life.This practical error stayed with me for decades after leaving twi and I knew all along that something was missing in my Christian life.It turned out to be a “someone” was missing and that was Christ.
Now still having a twi-mindset about the holy spirit, I feel once again that something or someone is missing.The way twi changed the “he” into an “it” when referring to holy spirit. As a result, I always pictured the spirit as being a gift-like package and therefore an “it.” This led right into the broken-cistern teaching of the “great principle” where we must operate “it” - the gift in order to manifest the power.
So Jesus and God have been “out there” in the heavenlies and my 2-way relationship with them has to go through this gift of spirit that is inside me.See what I’m saying?I had an “it (a conduit)” inside me and the “persons” of God and Jesus outside of me.
So now I’m thinking after reading your posts and those of others that the holy spirit cannot be an “it,” especially if “the work of the Holy Spirit is to manifest the active presence of God in the world, and especially in the church” as you said.
What if all three of them lived inside us - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?They are all one in purpose so it would be detrimental to separate the spirit of truth from the other two as I was doing.Although they work together as a team, I think they each have a vital “role” in helping us to walk in love and in power.I’ll have to think more about this - what their ”roles” are according to scripture, so I can then know them better and confidently reach out to them in times of need.
What if the incorruptible seed of being born again is a spiritual connection to the Godhead directly? And that connection can manifest any aspect according to the direct need? The Creator, The Savior, The Comforter?
So the Christ in you is that seed of the new birth, the connection, the spark. As opposed to the whole eyes behind eyes type of analogy?
What I find lacking in Way theology is also the personal connection with a Savior. God is removed to an impersonal spectator position while people be bop around manipulating the universe by the varying levels of “their believing”. Or their “operation of holy spirit “
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Charity
Reading twi's article both was emotionally and physically sickening. It so reinforced the doctrinal and practical errors that robbed believers of having a personal relationship with God and Jesus Chr
Bolshevik
Rocky
Who among you (or us) might be strategic thinkers? Was Victor Wierwille a strategic thinker? (not necessarily a rhetorical question) Is Mike a strategic thinker? (rhetorical questi
Bolshevik
I do enjoy your input T-Bone,
This three part team, Father, Proginy . . . shouldn't there be a Mother? When God-Breathed into Adam the Hebrew word used was feminine, if I recall correctly. (ruach Elohim)
https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/feminine-imagery-god-hebrew-bible/
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waysider
If you're going to use abbreviations while posting or writing, it's a good idea to spell the word or phrase out in full the first time, followed by the abbreviation in parentheses, to indicate what the abbreviation represents.
Like this: Great Principle (GP)
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OldSkool
I've gotten away from doing this ..I'll do my part. Thx.
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T-Bone
great article Bolshevik!
thanks for posting the link!
and good point!
of late I've been trying to remember to be inclusive - like in my thread on human nature...using the term 'humankind' rather than 'mankind'
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chockfull
Yeah thought I’d be ok with a contraction of the thread topic title but apparently not.
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Charity
Thank you, T-Bone for your humility and honesty when sharing on GSC. Two verses came to mind after reading your post.
1) But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere (*simple) and pure devotion to Christ. 2 Cor 11:3 (NIV)
*Bible Hub gives the Greek word for “sincere” as haplotés meaning singleness, hence simplicity
2) in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the **unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not *dawn upon them. 2 Cor 4:4 (ASV)
* Bible Hub gives the Greek word for “dawn upon” as augasai meaning beam forth
**I’m taking the word “unbelieving” and applying Rom 10:14a (NIV) to it: “How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?”
__________
Thank you, T-Bone for your humility and honesty when sharing on GSC. Two verses came to mind after reading your post.
1) But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere (*simple) and pure devotion to Christ. 2 Cor 11:3 (NIV)
*Bible Hub gives the Greek word for “sincere” as haplotés meaning singleness, hence simplicity
2) in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the **unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not *dawn upon them. 2 Cor 4:4 (ASV)
* Bible Hub gives the Greek word for “dawn upon” as augasai meaning beam forth
**I’m taking the word “unbelieving” and applying Rom 10:14a (NIV) to it: “How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?”
__________
That is how I feel about most of my time in twi. I did not hear about a “sincere and pure devotion to Christ” nor did the “light of the gospel of the glory of Christ” beam forth. Instead their devotion to Christ was deluted to the utmost degree and the glory of Christ was obscured all because of their laser focus on all things "vp." Who orchestrated all this? Both verses reveal the answer – the serpent’s cunning and the god of this world. What does that say about twi?!
I trust Psalm 40:1,2 for deliverance from all things "vp": "I waited patiently for Yahweh. He turned to me and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of a horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings."
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Charity
Thus the
. Thanks Mike.
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Bolshevik
Well, according to some, God who is A Spirit, can only talk to spirit. And if spirit is feminine, God can only talk to women.
I don't about you, but that takes a huge burden off my shoulders. It's someone else's problem to listen, right?
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waysider
Not so fast. Its says talk to ,not listen to. One must be diligent in rightly dividing The Great Principle.
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Charity
I haven't read the article yet but the name of it makes me think of a few of vp's quotes from "The Way - Living in Love" that T-Bone posted earlier.
”The next morning, I still hadn’t left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel…a woman came over to me, and said, ‘I think God sent a man here to meet your need. Meet me at 9 a.m.’ I thought, ‘Women never tell the truth.’
‘There aren’t going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.’
then Stiles turned to his wife and said, ‘Honey, I’m going with VP.’ She said something to him like, ‘How long will you be?’ And he said, ‘That’s none of your business.’ That was it, my opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes, just from the way he handled her.”
What a mean male chauvinist pig he was.
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T-Bone
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OldSkool
Well..I don't know specifically what did or didn't happen that day but when u connect the dots vpw excluded his wife often enough cause he was a serial adulterer at best...I'm being nice.
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chockfull
Delving into the Great Principle (GP) involves investigating the seldom mentioned third figure in the Godhead.
Wikipedia is valuable for a summation of knowledge and viewpoints in the Christian world.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godhead_in_Christianity
One of the sub links is to The Holy Spirit link on Wikipedia which also provides a great summation of mainstream Christianity views on The Holy Spirit.
From my perspective a 3 member Godhead makes sense. 3 is the basic unit of either a family or an organization. 3 points form a triangle a stable structure for building. The American government in 3 parts provides a reasonable balance of power example in the modern world.
Spirit typically as a concept involves a higher level learning than just a mental learning. Whether a 2 or 3 part person is what a group believes, the concept itself would direct towards a higher level life than an animal. You would expect thought, advanced concepts with society, advanced morals and ethics.
Power and purification would be two terms immediately evident together with Holy Spirit. He is also referred to as the Paraclete, or Comforter.
We see Him directly at direct points like when John baptized Jesus. Pentecost. Pivotal times in history.
I don’t think it would be blasphemy to include Him in prayer or conversation. But from my dumb imagery He is more like the silent fire wielder or the energizing comfort in life.
There I’m sure that’s all out there enough for them to do an Advanced Class (AC) grad session on me. Lol.
But I am working out my own salvation along with all of you in scripture reading and discussion.
I post from a phone mostly so don’t tend to cut and paste in stuff from my Bible software most of time.
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chockfull
Yes the misogyny is quite evident in that account. Also the lying. A group of 8 ministers got together at JE Stiles request to minister the Holy Spirit to VP. They tried to lead him into SIT. But he faked it and lied to them by quoting a small section of NT Greek then OT Hebrew from Genesis. He never confessed to making it up to them.
Stiles had bragged that he led over 10,000 people into SIT in his ministry. Maybe that was his thing his gift ministry his specialty.
That was more motive for VP to copy his book. Standing on the shoulders of giants while maintaining one hand in their pockets.
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chockfull
In most mythology the gods are a family. I am not sure if that is the same as the triune Godhead concept at all. Unless father/mother covered the same portion of the Godhead which sounds logical also like the feminine Hebrew references in that link. They would be the conceptual diversion from the existing mythology.
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Mike
Just to help me sort things out, could you tell us what years you were in TWI?
One reason I ask is because I did hear about those things in the 1970s with TWI-1.
TWI-2 = (Craig) started slow at 1982, but was fully functioning by 1985.
TWI-3 = (Rosalie) started around 2000.
TWI-4 = (Vern Edwards) started about 4 or 5 years ago.
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Bolshevik
I've speculated VPW had an abusive mother. Maybe she was a free spirit?
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chockfull
Yes so we can divide your life into dispensations then judge you by the dispensation.
It supports the underlying view of the free hippy love 70s times being the true Christianity that all of the Old Wineskin 4 (OW-4) leaders are now returning to by being laid back and cool and allowing metal vocals on stage.
It paints the Two historical and preceding wineskins (OW-2 and OW-3) as the problem.
It also is tremendously naïve and labels the latest OW-4 by the current president who does not weild the power. Two other positions there do. John Rupp. Chairman of the Board. Bill Greene. And the Emeritus couple Rosalie Rivenbark and Donna (what does she use as a last name now?)
Vern Edwards is a laid back and cool looking front man though.
BUT
doesnt change the fact that all of the old wineskins happened under the
Charlatan Administration
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Bolshevik
I've toyed with the idea that religion and politics are reflections of the family structures of that population. If most of a population is raised under a certain type of family, their psychology will develop in that environment, and the religion and government will grow from that.
Maybe a little chicken and egg going on, but seeing your family in government and your gods is interesting, imo
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Charity
Could be. This meeting with Stiles happened in the late 50's or early 60's I think. It was more common for men, religious or not, to have that dominating, controlling or oppressive attitude toward women. But the book, The Way-Living in Love, was printed in 1972 and he purposely added those demeaning beliefs about women in at that time when they had nothing to do with his topic of speaking in tongues. It's just so revealing that this was the same man who drugged and raped, sexually used and abused women and yet was still idolized by thousands of unknowing people. So much spiritual darkness.
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Bolshevik
That was years before I was born.
I have not known women to be less abusive than men in general. Marriage rates have declined because there's no incentive for anyone to do something so limiting and destructive.
It sounds like VPW is speaking to the fourth wall, and said what he thought others would be drawn too.
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waysider
I guess you must have better ears than me. I never heard them.
Well, it's a moot point, anyhow, since, as far as I know, it's not in the written collaterals.
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Charity
I remember going through something similar to this on “the absent Christ (TAC)” thread concerning how during my way ministry (twi) years I had come to minimize Christ in my life. This practical error stayed with me for decades after leaving twi and I knew all along that something was missing in my Christian life. It turned out to be a “someone” was missing and that was Christ.
Now still having a twi-mindset about the holy spirit, I feel once again that something or someone is missing. The way twi changed the “he” into an “it” when referring to holy spirit. As a result, I always pictured the spirit as being a gift-like package and therefore an “it.” This led right into the broken-cistern teaching of the “great principle” where we must operate “it” - the gift in order to manifest the power.
So Jesus and God have been “out there” in the heavenlies and my 2-way relationship with them has to go through this gift of spirit that is inside me. See what I’m saying? I had an “it (a conduit)” inside me and the “persons” of God and Jesus outside of me.
So now I’m thinking after reading your posts and those of others that the holy spirit cannot be an “it,” especially if “the work of the Holy Spirit is to manifest the active presence of God in the world, and especially in the church” as you said.
What if all three of them lived inside us - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? They are all one in purpose so it would be detrimental to separate the spirit of truth from the other two as I was doing. Although they work together as a team, I think they each have a vital “role” in helping us to walk in love and in power. I’ll have to think more about this - what their ”roles” are according to scripture, so I can then know them better and confidently reach out to them in times of need.
Make sense?
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chockfull
What if the incorruptible seed of being born again is a spiritual connection to the Godhead directly? And that connection can manifest any aspect according to the direct need? The Creator, The Savior, The Comforter?
So the Christ in you is that seed of the new birth, the connection, the spark. As opposed to the whole eyes behind eyes type of analogy?
What I find lacking in Way theology is also the personal connection with a Savior. God is removed to an impersonal spectator position while people be bop around manipulating the universe by the varying levels of “their believing”. Or their “operation of holy spirit “
Bullshonta my lanta.
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