And here is the fool’s ego coming out for another turn. To answer your question I have run far more Intermediate Classes than you will ever run and have run hundreds more Excellor sessions than you will ever in your life.
I’ve had plenty of people progress through both successfully and I can’t remember even one unsuccessful dropout.
But no don’t listen to me listen to the big Fathead Mike because he and his ego know how to adopt a parent - child tone while trolling.
The main goal was to perform on command immediately. That is the doctrinal error. Johnny Jump Up stand SIT and interpret.
In a true loving environment there is zero fear of “performance” because people only speak when they feel led to like a “season of prayer” and they can SIT or offer another common language spoken inspiration that could be interpretation or prophecy depending on timing and viewpoint.
VPWs clear butchery of Greek prepositions has a whole other look and feel all very controlled by the coordinator.
The true love is in correcting the doctrine and practice. It frees rather than binds.
But since your experience is extensive but doesn't support Mike's ideas, he'll pretend you never posted them or you never ran excellor's or ran them awfully or something.
Your catch is still good - that verse came up in several lexicons and on the website Got Questions org - and how most explain it is Jesus gave them measured authority as a divine authentication that the apostles were certified to continue Jesus’ mission.
I believe you're right. I'm going through the verses more carefully this time, and so far Jesus giving his disciples authority is mentioned only in this context.
This has got to be one of the most glaringly obvious interpolations* made by wierwille in his egocentric* theology-it all revolves around him – he’s got holy spirit…he operates it…below I’m quoting from TWI’s website, and I rendered in red font the smoking gun:
I Corinthians 12:11:
But all these [nine manifestations of holy spirit] worketh [energeō, are energized by] that one and the selfsame Spirit [God], dividing to every man severally [distributing to every man his own] as he [the man] will.
Energeō is the verb form of energēma, the kinetic, energized power of God. It is dunamis in operation. The manifestations of holy spirit are energized by God as each believer wills, or maturely deliberates. We can see the nine manifestations of holy spirit listed in I Corinthians 12:8-10. These manifestations can be operated by every believer, and every manifestation of the gift of holy spirit is profitable. Each believer operates God’s power when they decide and believe to do so.
Below I’ve copied and pasted I Corinthians 12:11 from other versions – these are from Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages – are very useful resource for parallel passages, lexicons, interlinear, commentaries - - and navigating the website is super easy! …anyway - note the same verse in other versions - and see that the translators correctlyobserve the context of the verse and entire chapter to indicate that it is the Holy Spirit who does the distributing:
New International Version All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
New Living Translation It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.
New King James Version But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
New American Standard Bible But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
Amplified Bible All these things [the gifts, the achievements, the abilities, the empowering] are brought about by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, distributing to each one individually just as He chooses.
NET Bible It is one and the same Spirit, distributing as he decides to each person, who produces all these things.
Weymouth New Testament But these results are all brought about by one and the same Spirit, who bestows His gifts upon each of us in accordance with His own will.
Contemporary English Version But it is the Spirit who does all this and decides which gifts to give to each of us.
~ ~ ~ ~
The above translations challenge the egocentric*interpolations*of wierwille and The Way International; or rather wierwille and The Way Internationalcontradict the natural sense and context of I Corinthians 12:11 – because the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts and decides who gets what… read the context - you’ll notice it even shoots holes in wierwille’s attempt to produce a one-man-show promoting ‘each believer can operate all nine manifestations’- observe verse 11 is nestled in the ideas of unity and diversity:
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
interpolation* = the insertion of something of a different nature into something else; a remark interjected in a conversation; in math, interpolation is at the root a simple mathematical concept. In short, interpolation is a process of determining the unknown values that lie in between the known data points. It is mostly used to predict the unknown values for any geographical related data points such as noise level, rainfall, elevation, and so on.
egocentric* = thinking only of oneself, without regard for the feelings or desires of others; self-centered; egocentrism refers to someone's inability to understand that another person's view or opinion may be different than their own; It refers to a limited worldview, with a person focusing only on his needs. An egocentric person may become obsessed with them. Egocentric people often show a lack of empathy for others. They cannot see things from a different point of view than their own. Another feature of this behavior is the ‘imaginary audience’.
Were all these interpolations* and this egocentric* theology in Stiles' book as well so that vp copied them into his own book and the pfal class? If these did not come from Stiles but from vp himself, it seems he would have had to persuade or pressure many others in twi, including the research department, to go along with him because he messed with so many verses to come up with the GP.
Were all these interpolations* and this egocentric* theology in Stiles' book as well so that vp copied them into his own book and the pfal class? If these did not come from Stiles but from vp himself, it seems he would have had to persuade or pressure many others in twi, including the research department, to go along with him because he messed with so many verses to come up with the GP.
I can't speak to your questions about what he plagiarized from Stiles' book - I haven't read anything by Stiles - or for that matter what he "borrowed" from BG Leonard's class - since I never took Leonard's class...I'm most familiar with Bullinger's stuff he plagiarized, since I have a some of Bullinger's stuff, How to Enjoy the Bible, The Companion Bible, Figures of Speech, Number in Scripture and his commentary on the book of Revelation...I liked Bullinger's work on literary structure and a few of the appendices but that's about it. For some things Bullinger was at least disciplined enough to make sense and be consistent - but other stuff he got wacky like 4 crucified and dispensationalism, and his view that the Bible is inerrant / scientifically accurate - funny thing Bullinger was involved in a flat earth society too when it comes right down to it - the Bible is malleable - one can twist it into any belief system.
As far as him pressuring or persuading the research department of TWI - that's a non-issue since wierwille ruled everything with an iron hand. If you haven't read Penworks' book Undertow you should - she gets into the pressure wierwille exerted on research staff
I remember one corps night rev. walter c. was teaching us from the book of Timothy and he mentioned wierwille instructing him before he went to the Institute for New Testament Textual Research ( I think that's the name of it ) in Germany, to look for a manuscript of Timothy that would prove wierwille's speculation ( more like wishful thinking ) was right about some version of a passage that he was confident existed which would support his anti-Trinitarian rants...well, in my opinion that's sneaky tactics to support confirmation bias...that's NOT true research
I remember one corps night rev. walter c. was teaching us from the book of Timothy and he mentioned wierwille instructing him before he went to the Institute for New Testament Textual Research ( I think that's the name of it ) in Germany, to look for a manuscript of Timothy that would prove wierwille's speculation ( more like wishful thinking ) was right about some version of a passage that he was confident existed which would support his anti-Trinitarian rants...well, in my opinion that's sneaky tactics to support confirmation bias...that's NOT true research
And here is the fool’s ego coming out for another turn. To answer your question I have run far more Intermediate Classes than you will ever run and have run hundreds more Excellor sessions than you will ever in your life.
I’ve had plenty of people progress through both successfully and I can’t remember even one unsuccessful dropout.
But no don’t listen to me listen to the big Fathead Mike because he and his ego know how to adopt a parent - child tone while trolling.
The main goal was to perform on command immediately. That is the doctrinal error. Johnny Jump Up stand SIT and interpret.
In a true loving environment there is zero fear of “performance” because people only speak when they feel led to like a “season of prayer” and they can SIT or offer another common language spoken inspiration that could be interpretation or prophecy depending on timing and viewpoint.
VPWs clear butchery of Greek prepositions has a whole other look and feel all very controlled by the coordinator.
The true love is in correcting the doctrine and practice. It frees rather than binds.
Thanks for posting this. I've run plenty of classes and coordinated many many excellor sessions...you have very likely done much more than me having been field way corps longer. Great perspective!
In all honesty, if the "great principle" causes such blindness in understanding the things of God; if it causes such stubbornness in recognising evil; if it causes one to think that Jesus Christ will return with the orange book in his hand - well, all I can say is I really don't want it, I don't want any of that.
What works for me is praise and thanksgiving, acknowledging God in all my ways, and respecting (and to the best of my ability obeying) the things expected of me by God. Then I have peace, and, somehow, gentle knowledge manifests itself and I "just know" the right thing to do or say or understand.
Seems a lot simpler than tying oneself in knots understanding some "great principle" that nobody can agree on - and that God didn't think important enough to spell out in minute (or any) detail in his Owners Manual.
Hi Twinky,
You have been led to a beautiful place in your walk with Christ after all the foulest of foul crap you experienced in twi and even for years after leaving twi. I become very much at peace whenever you share personally about God in your life.
I admit that I'm one to get myself tied up in knots when dealing with twi's handling of the scriptures. It's still new for me finding out about what others began posting about years ago, so I can get pretty intense about things. I've written about my anger and shock from seeing the errors in vp's teachings and realizing the harmful effects they have on believers. I've also talked about my joy when learning the truth about having a relationship with Christ.
The thing to remember is to relax and listen to the spirit during this process.
John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come
Why does the narcissist conjure up another Self? Why not simply transform his True Self into a False one?
Answer:
We often marvel at the discrepancy between the private and public lives of our idols: celebrities, statesmen, stars, writers, and other accomplished figures. It is as though they have two personalities, two selves: the "true" one which they reserve for their nearest and dearest and the "fake" or "false" or "concocted" one which they flaunt in public.
In contrast, the narcissist has no private life, no true self, no domain reserved exclusively for his nearest and dearest. His life is a spectacle, with free access to all, constantly on display, garnering narcissistic supply from his audience. In the theatre that is the narcissist's life, the actor is irrelevant. Only the show goes on. The False Self is everything the narcissist would like to be but, alas, cannot: omnipotent, omniscient, invulnerable, impregnable, brilliant, perfect, in short: godlike. Its most important role is to elicit narcissistic supply from others: admiration, adulation, awe, obedience, and, in general: unceasing attention. In Freud’s tripartite model, the False Self supplants the Ego and conforms to the narcissist’s unattainable, grandiose, and fantastic Ego Ideal.
The narcissist constructs a narrative of his life that is partly confabulated and whose purpose is to buttress, demonstrate, and prove the veracity of the fantastically grandiose and often impossible claims made by the False Self. This narrative allocates roles to significant others in the narcissist’s personal history. Inevitably, such a narrative is hard to credibly sustain for long: reality intrudes and a yawning abyss opens between the narcissist’s self-imputed divinity and his drab, pedestrian existence and attributes. I call it the Grandiosity Gap. Additionally, meaningful figures around the narcissist often refuse to play the parts allotted to them, rebel, and abandon the narcissist…
…Gradually, the disharmony between one’s perception of the universe and of oneself and reality becomes unbearable and engenders pathological, maladaptive, and dysfunctional attempts to either deny the hurtful discrepancy away (delusions and fantasies); grandiosely compensate for it by eliciting positive external voices to counter the negative, inner ones (narcissism via the False Self and its narcissistic supply); attack it (antisocial/psychopathy); withdraw from the world altogether (schizoid solution); or disappear by merging and fusing with another person (codependence.)
Once formed and functioning, the False Self stifles the growth of the True Self and paralyses it. Henceforth, the ossified True Self is virtually non-existent and plays no role (active or passive) in the conscious life of the narcissist. It is difficult to "resuscitate" it, even with psychotherapy. The False Self sometimes parades the child-like, vulnerable, needy, and innocent True Self in order to capture, manipulate, and attract empathic sources of narcissistic supply. When supply is low, the False Self is emaciated and dilapidated. It is unable to contain and repress the True Self which then emerges as a petulant, self-destructive, spoiled, and codependent entity. But the True Self’s moments in the sun are very brief and, usually, inconsequential…
…The False Self is a kind of positive projection: the narcissist’s attributes to it all the positive and desired aspects of himself, thereby endowing it with a quasi-separate existence. The False Self fulfils the role of a divinity in the narcissist’s obsessive-compulsive private religion: the narcissist worships it and adheres to ceremonies and rituals via which he interacts with it. The True Self, on the other hand, is ignored at best and usually denigrated. This process is akin to projective splitting: when parents project onto the golden child positive traits and talents even as they attribute to the scapegoat child negative, undesirable qualities. In this sense, the narcissist a parent with two offspring: his two selves.
There is no conflict between the True Self and the False Self. First, the True Self is much too weak to do battle with the overbearing False. Second, the False Self is adaptive (though maladaptive). It helps the True Self to cope with the world. Without the False Self, the True Self would be subjected to so much hurt that it will disintegrate. This happens to narcissists who go through a life crisis: their False Ego becomes dysfunctional and they experience a harrowing feeling of annulment.
The False Self has many functions. The two most important are:
1. It serves as a decoy, it "attracts the fire". It is a proxy for the True Self. It is tough as nails and can absorb any amount of pain, hurt and negative emotions. By inventing it, the child develops immunity to the indifference, manipulation, sadism, smothering, or exploitation – in short: to the abuse – inflicted on him by his parents (or by other Primary Objects in his life). It is a cloak, protecting him, rendering him invisible and omnipotent at the same time.
2. The False Self is misrepresented by the narcissist as his True Self. The narcissist is saying, in effect: "I am not who you think I am. I am someone else. I am this (False) Self. Therefore, I deserve a better, painless, more considerate treatment." The False Self, thus, is a contraption intended to alter other people's behaviour and attitude towards the narcissist…
…Why are narcissists not prone to suicide?
The simple answer is that they died a long time ago. Narcissists are the true zombies of the world.
Many scholars and therapists tried to grapple with the void at the core of the narcissist. The common view is that the remnants of the True Self are so ossified, shredded, cowed into submission and repressed – that, for all practical purposes, the True Self is dysfunctional and useless. In treating the narcissist, the therapist often tries to construct and nurture a completely new healthy self, rather than build upon the distorted wreckage strewn across the narcissist's psyche.
But what of the rare glimpses of True Self oft reported by those who interact with the narcissist?
Pathological narcissism is frequently comorbid with other disorders. The narcissistic spectrum is made up of gradations and shades of narcissism. Narcissistic traits or style or even personality (overlay) often attach to other disorders (co-morbidity). A person may well appear to be a full-fledged narcissist – may well appear to be suffering from the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) - but is not, in the strict, psychiatric, sense of the word. In such people, the True Self is still there and is sometimes observable…
AFAI am concerned, the "great principle" is NOT in the bible. Ecclesiastes says there's no new thing under the sun, sometimes that's true. But "the preacher" who wrote Ecclesiastes didn't know much about astronomy beyond names of some of the most prominent constellations; didn't have anywhere near as much available knowledge of cosmology or healthcare or geology or electricity or any one of hundreds or thousands of sciences or other fields of study. However, there WERE philosophers back then. Thinkers.
MY Great Principle is Lifelong Learning. I clearly don't know nearly as much as I would like (or love) to know.
But this is one thing I learned a little bit about today.
Why does the narcissist conjure up another Self? Why not simply transform his True Self into a False one?
Answer:
We often marvel at the discrepancy between the private and public lives of our idols: celebrities, statesmen, stars, writers, and other accomplished figures. It is as though they have two personalities, two selves: the "true" one which they reserve for their nearest and dearest and the "fake" or "false" or "concocted" one which they flaunt in public.
In contrast, the narcissist has no private life, no true self, no domain reserved exclusively for his nearest and dearest. His life is a spectacle, with free access to all, constantly on display, garnering narcissistic supply from his audience. In the theatre that is the narcissist's life, the actor is irrelevant. Only the show goes on. The False Self is everything the narcissist would like to be but, alas, cannot: omnipotent, omniscient, invulnerable, impregnable, brilliant, perfect, in short: godlike. Its most important role is to elicit narcissistic supply from others: admiration, adulation, awe, obedience, and, in general: unceasing attention. In Freud’s tripartite model, the False Self supplants the Ego and conforms to the narcissist’s unattainable, grandiose, and fantastic Ego Ideal.
The narcissist constructs a narrative of his life that is partly confabulated and whose purpose is to buttress, demonstrate, and prove the veracity of the fantastically grandiose and often impossible claims made by the False Self. This narrative allocates roles to significant others in the narcissist’s personal history. Inevitably, such a narrative is hard to credibly sustain for long: reality intrudes and a yawning abyss opens between the narcissist’s self-imputed divinity and his drab, pedestrian existence and attributes. I call it the Grandiosity Gap. Additionally, meaningful figures around the narcissist often refuse to play the parts allotted to them, rebel, and abandon the narcissist…
…Gradually, the disharmony between one’s perception of the universe and of oneself and reality becomes unbearable and engenders pathological, maladaptive, and dysfunctional attempts to either deny the hurtful discrepancy away (delusions and fantasies); grandiosely compensate for it by eliciting positive external voices to counter the negative, inner ones (narcissism via the False Self and its narcissistic supply); attack it (antisocial/psychopathy); withdraw from the world altogether (schizoid solution); or disappear by merging and fusing with another person (codependence.)
Once formed and functioning, the False Self stifles the growth of the True Self and paralyses it. Henceforth, the ossified True Self is virtually non-existent and plays no role (active or passive) in the conscious life of the narcissist. It is difficult to "resuscitate" it, even with psychotherapy. The False Self sometimes parades the child-like, vulnerable, needy, and innocent True Self in order to capture, manipulate, and attract empathic sources of narcissistic supply. When supply is low, the False Self is emaciated and dilapidated. It is unable to contain and repress the True Self which then emerges as a petulant, self-destructive, spoiled, and codependent entity. But the True Self’s moments in the sun are very brief and, usually, inconsequential…
…The False Self is a kind of positive projection: the narcissist’s attributes to it all the positive and desired aspects of himself, thereby endowing it with a quasi-separate existence. The False Self fulfils the role of a divinity in the narcissist’s obsessive-compulsive private religion: the narcissist worships it and adheres to ceremonies and rituals via which he interacts with it. The True Self, on the other hand, is ignored at best and usually denigrated. This process is akin to projective splitting: when parents project onto the golden child positive traits and talents even as they attribute to the scapegoat child negative, undesirable qualities. In this sense, the narcissist a parent with two offspring: his two selves.
There is no conflict between the True Self and the False Self. First, the True Self is much too weak to do battle with the overbearing False. Second, the False Self is adaptive (though maladaptive). It helps the True Self to cope with the world. Without the False Self, the True Self would be subjected to so much hurt that it will disintegrate. This happens to narcissists who go through a life crisis: their False Ego becomes dysfunctional and they experience a harrowing feeling of annulment.
The False Self has many functions. The two most important are:
1. It serves as a decoy, it "attracts the fire". It is a proxy for the True Self. It is tough as nails and can absorb any amount of pain, hurt and negative emotions. By inventing it, the child develops immunity to the indifference, manipulation, sadism, smothering, or exploitation – in short: to the abuse – inflicted on him by his parents (or by other Primary Objects in his life). It is a cloak, protecting him, rendering him invisible and omnipotent at the same time.
2. The False Self is misrepresented by the narcissist as his True Self. The narcissist is saying, in effect: "I am not who you think I am. I am someone else. I am this (False) Self. Therefore, I deserve a better, painless, more considerate treatment." The False Self, thus, is a contraption intended to alter other people's behaviour and attitude towards the narcissist…
…Why are narcissists not prone to suicide?
The simple answer is that they died a long time ago. Narcissists are the true zombies of the world.
Many scholars and therapists tried to grapple with the void at the core of the narcissist. The common view is that the remnants of the True Self are so ossified, shredded, cowed into submission and repressed – that, for all practical purposes, the True Self is dysfunctional and useless. In treating the narcissist, the therapist often tries to construct and nurture a completely new healthy self, rather than build upon the distorted wreckage strewn across the narcissist's psyche.
But what of the rare glimpses of True Self oft reported by those who interact with the narcissist?
Pathological narcissism is frequently comorbid with other disorders. The narcissistic spectrum is made up of gradations and shades of narcissism. Narcissistic traits or style or even personality (overlay) often attach to other disorders (co-morbidity). A person may well appear to be a full-fledged narcissist – may well appear to be suffering from the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) - but is not, in the strict, psychiatric, sense of the word. In such people, the True Self is still there and is sometimes observable…
I think of VPW, for a mental model, as on the dark end of the spectrum . . . to be so committed to what he did over and over.
He was a void, nothing was really there. He was never what he claimed, regardless of how many agreed with him.
People circle the void seeing a false image. Drawn to a fantasy. If VPW is removed (dies), it's still a void. The fantasy isn't all him.
Perhaps a more stark mental model for said kind of dark example of a void is a guy in the news all over the country the last couple of weeks for his pervasive, persistent prevarication. A guy who claims 142k people selected him for a seat in a certain national legislative body (in the US). But that 142k voted for somebody who conned them.
I think of VPW, for a mental model, as on the dark end of the spectrum . . . to be so committed to what he did over and over.
He was a void, nothing was really there. He was never what he claimed, regardless of how many agreed with him.
People circle the void seeinga false image. Drawn to a fantasy. If VPW is removed (dies), it's still a void. The fantasy isn't all him.
On 1/14/2023 at 12:22 PM, T-Bone said:
Great posts WordWolf and Bolshevik !
Got me thinking…uh oh…
hence
The great unprincipled cult-leader
My wife and I watched The Three Faces of Eve (1957) - IMDb last night – it is a 1957 American film noir mystery drama film presented in CinemaScope, based on the book of the same name about the life of Chris Costner Sizemore, which was written by psychiatrists Corbett H. Thigpen and Hervey M. Cleckley, who also helped write the screenplay. Sizemore, also known as Eve White, was a woman they suggested might have dissociative identity disorder (then known as multiple personality disorder). Sizemore's identity was concealed in interviews about this film and was not revealed to the public until 1977. The film was directed by Nunnally Johnson. From:The Three Faces of Eve - Wikipedia
The film got me primed to read these posts this morning in a new light, and reframe the problem. The narrative of The Three Faces of Eve unravels a mystery. The film depicts a psychiatrist who attempts to understand and deal with twoincomplete and inadequate personalities inside Eve. In one session, a third personality emerges, a relatively stable personality named Jane. The psychiatrist eventually prompts his patient to remember a traumatic eventin Eve's childhood. Her grandmother had died when she was six, and according to family custom, relatives were supposed to kiss the dead person at the viewing, making it easier for them to let go. While Eve screams, her mother forces her to kiss the corpse. Apparently, Eve's terror led to the creation of different personalities.
I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to consider indoctrination into a cult as a low-energy trauma. And by no means do I wish to minimize the compounding of high-energy traumasome experienced from sexual molestation, intense psychological and physical abuse from cult-leaders, parents, etc..
I think human beings are capable of enduring very difficult situations, hardships, unpleasant conditions, etc.…. And something else I’ve observed on Grease Spot Caféis that we are resilient too – that we are able to withstand a lot of hellish stuff and if given enough time – which varies for everyone – we can recover…survive…and hopefully thrive. My two-bit amateur psychology theory is that as followers of a harmful and abusive cult develop some coping mechanisms in our psyche…processes that help us manage the stress / trauma and optimistically diminish the intensity of the pain. Sometimes it’s easier to go along with the ritualized behavior – somewhat of a go-with-the-flow attitude - to accept a situation, rather than trying to alter or control it.
I’m not suggesting cult-followers develop multiple personalities. For our discussion I’m going with a simple definition:
In psychology, the notion of the self refers to a person’s experience as a single, unitary, autonomous being that is separate from others, experienced with continuity through time and place. The experience of the self includes consciousness of one’s physicality as well as one’s inner character and emotional life.
One of the reasons I study the Bible is for self-improvement to develop my knowledge / wisdom / character. The Bible isn’t my only resource for that – but so that I’m not going all over the map with the influence / inspiration from other books, films, TV, music, art, and even Grease Spot Café – I’m limiting my reference to mostly the Bible for this discussion.
Something the film The Three Faces of Eve did for me in light of these recent posts was get me to re-think a basic Christian concept of self-improvement – the struggle of the unregenerate-selfversus the revitalized-self- - the old manversus the new man…For a Christian who gets suckered into a pseudo-Christian cult, there is a ‘third self’that is put forth as the new man – the ideal you.
I believe wierwille / The Way Internationalhijackedthe abstract idea of the new manmentioned in the epistles of Paul. By taking advantage of a Christian’s desire to better themselves – in a bait-and-switch ploy, wierwille / TWI presented a submissive and compliant attitudeas something to be admired and indicative of Christlike behavior. I think my use of the word ‘hijacked’ is appropriate because it is the unauthorized seizure of a soul’s journey - compelling one toward a different direction or destination– basically using the person for one's own purposes.
So, let’s look at the old manand the new manin the Bible…I’ve put certain words and phrases in a red fontthat are pertinent to our discussion – and we find that in this battle we are not going at it alone – we have the Holy Spirit’s help too!
~ ~ ~ ~
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin — 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
4 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
So… summarizing my thoughts – as a Christian and survivor of a pseudo-Christian cult, i looked at 3 alternatives to create a plan for self-improvement. After which I will submit a redefinition of wierwille’s great principle– which I call the great unprincipled cult-leader.
1.the natural self. Our fallen human nature. The unregenerate person. That’s our unredeemed self. That’s us withoutany of the light and influence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Keep doing the same old thing. Enjoy the rut. Nothing like a bad habit to depend on for autopilot
2.the supernatural self. The ideal person – the “new” inner self – it’s new in terms of it didn’t exist until the light and influence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit came into your life. There may not be a Stephen-Spielberg-big-Hollywood-production in your life that stands out as when it all began.... thereafter at times we realize we need to get out of a rut…Often a way to break a bad habit is to start a good habit to take its place.
3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So, it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
Jesus was explaining that we cannot control the work of the Holy Spirit. He works in ways we cannot predict or understand.
you’re really the same person but now freed from the control of our fallen nature. There is now a spiritual battle both within and without – inner conflicts from worldly temptations that may still hold their appeal to the typical and personally unique pressures of daily living are unavoidable skirmishes. Philosophers and Diaspora Jewish intellectuals often advocated cultivating the mind, the ‘inner person’ or ‘inner being’, as over the passions of the body. Sometimes they used war imagery to depict this conflict – ‘waging war’, (Romans 7:23) Paul depicts a mind here that has been taken prisoner of war by the members of his body.
Ourold self, thebody of sin(Romans 6:6) are synonymous – and refers to sinful tendencies that are entangled with bodily weaknesses and pleasures. The old selfis ‘dead’ – but this is figurative and not literal. Sin retains a foothold in our humanness. Conceptually it’s not that we have two competing natures – the old and the new. It’s like the supernatural self has been revitalized but we are now aware there’s a part of ourselves finds still shackled to an unredeemed physical body; the term ‘flesh’ is equivalent to the physical body, which can be an instrument for holiness (Romans 6: 19; 12:1 )
According to the Bible humankind was created to enjoy a beautiful planet, relationships without friction, and fellowship without distance. But something went wrong – and something is still wrong, and we know it, both within our world and within ourselves. Religions, philosophy, psychology, sociology, politics, and just about everyone else who doesn’t live under a rock is trying to resolve what went wrong. I for one like to check out all the options and viewpoints available instead of limiting myself to one problematic ideology like wierwille’s theology.
3.the adaptive self- the ‘new you’ as specified by the cult-leader. This may be misrepresented as the supernatural self – the ideal self. How the cult-leader says you should think, and act becomes the new standard – which you are expected to adopt…I got into this on another thread- hereand here- so you can check those out another time at your convenience...as it is, this post is too damn long
As an example of modeling counterfeit Christianity, under the pretext of prepping leaders for counseling wierwille would show the way corps some inappropriate video and then handle any shock and disgust of the students by saying stuff like renew your mind or the love of God doesn’t think evil.
~ ~ ~ ~
…and now for the finale…
The great unprincipled cult-leader:
The unscrupulous cult-leader who is deluded can only speak to others who are enamored with his greatness. Through indoctrination the unscrupulous cult-leader in effect teaches his or her ‘creation’ in you (the cultic mindset) – which is an alternate standard of how to think and act – and becomes manifested in the senses realm to the degree you become assimilated in the harmful and controlling cult.
...Instead of ending on a positive note I thought I’d end on a sour note
Well – that’s all for now, folks
more on the great unprincipled cult-leaders
false image...a fantasy…though in itself, it is a void, it still represents something – like an icon, the graphic representation on a screen – you click on it and it launches the program. For some reason that made me think of idols and revisit the great unprincipled cult-leader.
The great unprincipled cult-leader:The unscrupulous cult-leader who is deluded can only speak to others who are enamored with his greatness. Through indoctrination the unscrupulous cult-leader in effect teaches his or her ‘creation’ in you (the cultic mindset) – which is an alternate standard of how to think and act – and becomes manifested in the senses realm to the degree you become assimilated in the harmful and controlling cult.
~ ~ ~ ~
A cult of personality, or a cult of the leader, is the result of an effort which is made to create an idealized and heroic image of a leader, often through unquestioning flattery and praise. From Cult of personality - Wikipedia
Since the indoctrination process usually revolves around the cult-leader, the procedure is deemed successful when people are enamored with the cult-leader. Perhaps one of the most elusive things about the cult of wierwille is that he looms large – becoming greater than the sum of his plagiarized works and hypocritical stage act. He became an icon…a symbol of God’s Word to modern humankind.
Thinking symbolically is the foundation of everything we do -- we live in a symbolic world…Symbols are Shorthand For Ideas…Name some symbols. The Christian cross, the American flag, a wedding ring, a designer label. When we think about symbols, these are the sort of things that come to mind -- signs that act as a stand-in or shorthand for a whole set of ideas. From When Did We Become Mentally Modern? : NPR
~ ~ ~ ~
An idol is a symbol. I listened to a fascinating talk by Michael Heiser on idols. Some ideas from MH: In the ancient cultures an idol was made so that an entity…some deity could attach itself to the idol…it could reside there…it was the method for connecting to followers.
If the idol was destroyed in battle the people made new one that the entity could live in…In biblical thought God wants to reside with His people. God doesn’t need an object to attach to or to reside in – He’s everywhere! When people go for idols, they are trading the presence of God for some infinitesimal object! From: Michael S. Heiser - What's the Real Reason God Forbid Idols? | Facebook
New International Version “Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all?Ezekiel 14:3
Observe it says idols in their hearts. It’s invisible to others because they can’t see what’s in my heart…but what’s in the heart eventually becomes visible – here's Proverbs 4:23 in several versions:
NET Bible Guard your heart with all vigilance, for from it are the sources of life.
The heart refers to the mind as the center of thinking and reason and includes emotions, the will and thus the whole being, affects speech and conduct…Jesus taught the same concept – and when a person has a defiled heart it’s expressed in both what the person says and does:
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”
6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”
17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”
wierwille died but current top leadership for all practical purposes act as his high priests – they are the intermediary between the works and words of wierwille and his followers – they are authorized to properly interpret all things wierwille and enforce psychological punishment on the disobedient.
The intellectual and emotional appeal of wierwille is truly iconic – in fact from 12 years of dedicated involvement I frequently had - what I consider now an unsettling experience - when reading the Bible. I had sat through the class so many times and was so familiar with the class collaterals that it all was like an interpretive filter and PFAL-augmentation popping up in my head when reading the Bible. Like an icon on a computer screen, I’d read a verse and it was like a program launched relevant wierwille-definitions, remarks, concepts, and symbolism. It’s the same as having a portable study bible with extensive notes and commentary in your head. Yikes! Now that’s indoctrination!
That is the idea behind the great unprincipled cult-leader…That unscrupulous cult-leader wierwille who was seriously deluded could only speak to others who were / are enamored with his greatness.
Even now in 2023 through PFAL-Today-brainwashingunscrupulous cult-leaders still carry on the mission - creating and reinforcingthe cultic mindset in grads– which is an alternate standard…the wierwille-standardof how to think and act – and becomes manifested in the senses realm to the degree you become integrated in the harmful and controlling cult of The Way International.
Edited by T-Bone edited for clarity...are we clear on that?
The intellectual and emotional appeal of wierwille is truly iconic – in fact from 12 years of dedicated involvement I frequently had - what I consider now an unsettling experience - when reading the Bible. I had sat through the class so many times and was so familiar with the class collaterals that it all was like an interpretive filter and PFAL-augmentation popping up in my head when reading the Bible. Like an icon on a computer screen, I’d read a verse and it was like a program launched relevant wierwille-definitions, remarks, concepts, and symbolism. It’s the same as having a portable study bible with extensive notes and commentary in your head. Yikes! Now that’s indoctrination!
Exactly! Even all these years, decades, later, I can't easily the epistles in AV (KJV). Too much negative background.
The way I overcame this was to read The Message version, which is so simplistic whilst still delivering the same message. My mind simply could not run in PFAL tramlines. And then, I read various other versions. Now, I read one or two particular versions. My church uses NIV, which I don't particularly like.
false image...a fantasy…though in itself, it is a void, it still represents something – like an icon, the graphic representation on a screen – you click on it and it launches the program. For some reason that made me think of idols and revisit the great unprincipled cult-leader.
The great unprincipled cult-leader:The unscrupulous cult-leader who is deluded can only speak to others who are enamored with his greatness. Through indoctrination the unscrupulous cult-leader in effect teaches his or her ‘creation’ in you (the cultic mindset) – which is an alternate standard of how to think and act – and becomes manifested in the senses realm to the degree you become assimilated in the harmful and controlling cult.
~ ~ ~ ~
A cult of personality, or a cult of the leader, is the result of an effort which is made to create an idealized and heroic image of a leader, often through unquestioning flattery and praise. From Cult of personality - Wikipedia
Since the indoctrination process usually revolves around the cult-leader, the procedure is deemed successful when people are enamored with the cult-leader. Perhaps one of the most elusive things about the cult of wierwille is that he looms large – becoming greater than the sum of his plagiarized works and hypocritical stage act. He became an icon…a symbol of God’s Word to modern humankind.
Thinking symbolically is the foundation of everything we do -- we live in a symbolic world…Symbols are Shorthand For Ideas…Name some symbols. The Christian cross, the American flag, a wedding ring, a designer label. When we think about symbols, these are the sort of things that come to mind -- signs that act as a stand-in or shorthand for a whole set of ideas. From When Did We Become Mentally Modern? : NPR
~ ~ ~ ~
An idol is a symbol. I listened to a fascinating talk by Michael Heiser on idols. Some ideas from MH: In the ancient cultures an idol was made so that an entity…some deity could attach itself to the idol…it could reside there…it was the method for connecting to followers.
If the idol was destroyed in battle the people made new one that the entity could live in…In biblical thought God wants to reside with His people. God doesn’t need an object to attach to or to reside in – He’s everywhere! When people go for idols, they are trading the presence of God for some infinitesimal object! From: Michael S. Heiser - What's the Real Reason God Forbid Idols? | Facebook
New International Version “Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all?Ezekiel 14:3
Observe it says idols in their hearts. It’s invisible to others because they can’t see what’s in my heart…but what’s in the heart eventually becomes visible – here's Proverbs 4:23 in several versions:
NET Bible Guard your heart with all vigilance, for from it are the sources of life.
The heart refers to the mind as the center of thinking and reason and includes emotions, the will and thus the whole being, affects speech and conduct…Jesus taught the same concept – and when a person has a defiled heart it’s expressed in both what the person says and does:
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”
6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”
17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”
wierwille died but current top leadership for all practical purposes act as his high priests – they are the intermediary between the works and words of wierwille and his followers – they are authorized to properly interpret all things wierwille and enforce psychological punishment on the disobedient.
The intellectual and emotional appeal of wierwille is truly iconic – in fact from 12 years of dedicated involvement I frequently had - what I consider now an unsettling experience - when reading the Bible. I had sat through the class so many times and was so familiar with the class collaterals that it all was like an interpretive filter and PFAL-augmentation popping up in my head when reading the Bible. Like an icon on a computer screen, I’d read a verse and it was like a program launched relevant wierwille-definitions, remarks, concepts, and symbolism. It’s the same as having a portable study bible with extensive notes and commentary in your head. Yikes! Now that’s indoctrination!
That is the idea behind the great unprincipled cult-leader…That unscrupulous cult-leader wierwille who was seriously deluded could only speak to others who were / are enamored with his greatness.
Even now in 2023 through PFAL-Today-brainwashingunscrupulous cult-leaders still carry on the mission - creating and reinforcingthe cultic mindset in grads– which is an alternate standard…the wierwille-standardof how to think and act – and becomes manifested in the senses realm to the degree you become integrated in the harmful and controlling cult of The Way International.
I think you brought up "heart" earlier and I was pondering where thoughts come from in The Renewed Mind thread.
So the GP is a flow chart instructing people to open up, be unguarded.
I think someone here mentioned excellor/exceller sessions are meant to deal with fear. . . . Fear it sounds like was there with good reason. (Proverbs 4:23)
Perhaps a more stark mental model for said kind of dark example of a void is a guy in the news all over the country the last couple of weeks for his pervasive, persistent prevarication. A guy who claims 142k people selected him for a seat in a certain national legislative body (in the US). But that 142k voted for somebody who conned them.
Exactly! Even all these years, decades, later, I can't easily the epistles in AV (KJV). Too much negative background.
The way I overcame this was to read The Message version, which is so simplistic whilst still delivering the same message. My mind simply could not run in PFAL tramlines. And then, I read various other versions. Now, I read one or two particular versions. My church uses NIV, which I don't particularly like.
Yeah – I’ve got a convenient system -8 versions in 2 volumes…kinda bulky – but handy:
Exactly! Even all these years, decades, later, I can't easily the epistles in AV (KJV). Too much negative background.
The way I overcame this was to read The Message version, which is so simplistic whilst still delivering the same message. My mind simply could not run in PFAL tramlines. And then, I read various other versions. Now, I read one or two particular versions. My church uses NIV, which I don't particularly like.
Cool. I’ve read various versions even while in TWI. The things I really had to ditch were ministry related paper and my extensively marked up Oxford Bible which had been through a bunch of reconditioning and binding. That Bible was my scribe idol I call it so it was good to dispose of it.
Now I seem open to reading any version and the multi versions like TBone posts are usually what I see in any Bible software.
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Charity
Reading twi's article both was emotionally and physically sickening. It so reinforced the doctrinal and practical errors that robbed believers of having a personal relationship with God and Jesus Chr
Bolshevik
Rocky
Who among you (or us) might be strategic thinkers? Was Victor Wierwille a strategic thinker? (not necessarily a rhetorical question) Is Mike a strategic thinker? (rhetorical questi
WordWolf
But since your experience is extensive but doesn't support Mike's ideas, he'll pretend you never posted them or you never ran excellor's or ran them awfully or something.
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Rocky
Good deal.
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Charity
I believe you're right. I'm going through the verses more carefully this time, and so far Jesus giving his disciples authority is mentioned only in this context.
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Charity
Were all these interpolations* and this egocentric* theology in Stiles' book as well so that vp copied them into his own book and the pfal class? If these did not come from Stiles but from vp himself, it seems he would have had to persuade or pressure many others in twi, including the research department, to go along with him because he messed with so many verses to come up with the GP.
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T-Bone
I can't speak to your questions about what he plagiarized from Stiles' book - I haven't read anything by Stiles - or for that matter what he "borrowed" from BG Leonard's class - since I never took Leonard's class...I'm most familiar with Bullinger's stuff he plagiarized, since I have a some of Bullinger's stuff, How to Enjoy the Bible, The Companion Bible, Figures of Speech, Number in Scripture and his commentary on the book of Revelation...I liked Bullinger's work on literary structure and a few of the appendices but that's about it. For some things Bullinger was at least disciplined enough to make sense and be consistent - but other stuff he got wacky like 4 crucified and dispensationalism, and his view that the Bible is inerrant / scientifically accurate - funny thing Bullinger was involved in a flat earth society too
when it comes right down to it - the Bible is malleable - one can twist it into any belief system.
As far as him pressuring or persuading the research department of TWI - that's a non-issue since wierwille ruled everything with an iron hand. If you haven't read Penworks' book Undertow you should - she gets into the pressure wierwille exerted on research staff
I remember one corps night rev. walter c. was teaching us from the book of Timothy and he mentioned wierwille instructing him before he went to the Institute for New Testament Textual Research ( I think that's the name of it ) in Germany, to look for a manuscript of Timothy that would prove wierwille's speculation ( more like wishful thinking
) was right about some version of a passage that he was confident existed which would support his anti-Trinitarian rants...well, in my opinion that's sneaky tactics to support confirmation bias...that's NOT true research
Edited by T-Bonetypos
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Rocky
YES!
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OldSkool
Thanks for posting this. I've run plenty of classes and coordinated many many excellor sessions...you have very likely done much more than me having been field way corps longer. Great perspective!
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waysider
Marsha, Marsha, bo-bar-sha
Bo-na-na fanna, fo-far-sha
Fee-fi-mo-ar-sha
Marsha
Isn't that wuuuuunderful!?
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Charity
Hi Twinky,
You have been led to a beautiful place in your walk with Christ after all the foulest of foul crap you experienced in twi and even for years after leaving twi. I become very much at peace whenever you share personally about God in your life.
I admit that I'm one to get myself tied up in knots when dealing with twi's handling of the scriptures. It's still new for me finding out about what others began posting about years ago, so I can get pretty intense about things. I've written about my anger and shock from seeing the errors in vp's teachings and realizing the harmful effects they have on believers. I've also talked about my joy when learning the truth about having a relationship with Christ.
The thing to remember is to relax and listen to the spirit during this process.
John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come
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T-Bone
Bolshevik, thanks for sharing this book…I finally got around to reading your post/hyperlink – and then immediately purchased the Kindle version.
I am always fascinated with this kind of stuff as it relates to me getting a better understanding of harmful and controlling cult-leaders.
A lot of this stuff strikes a huge nerve with my interactions and even general experiences with wierwille and LCM.
Thanks again for mentioning this book…I’ve copied and pasted some excerpts from the hyperlink you provided…
...behold the great principle behind the great unprincipled cult-leader
:
question:
Why does the narcissist conjure up another Self? Why not simply transform his True Self into a False one?
Answer:
We often marvel at the discrepancy between the private and public lives of our idols: celebrities, statesmen, stars, writers, and other accomplished figures. It is as though they have two personalities, two selves: the "true" one which they reserve for their nearest and dearest and the "fake" or "false" or "concocted" one which they flaunt in public.
In contrast, the narcissist has no private life, no true self, no domain reserved exclusively for his nearest and dearest. His life is a spectacle, with free access to all, constantly on display, garnering narcissistic supply from his audience. In the theatre that is the narcissist's life, the actor is irrelevant. Only the show goes on. The False Self is everything the narcissist would like to be but, alas, cannot: omnipotent, omniscient, invulnerable, impregnable, brilliant, perfect, in short: godlike. Its most important role is to elicit narcissistic supply from others: admiration, adulation, awe, obedience, and, in general: unceasing attention. In Freud’s tripartite model, the False Self supplants the Ego and conforms to the narcissist’s unattainable, grandiose, and fantastic Ego Ideal.
The narcissist constructs a narrative of his life that is partly confabulated and whose purpose is to buttress, demonstrate, and prove the veracity of the fantastically grandiose and often impossible claims made by the False Self. This narrative allocates roles to significant others in the narcissist’s personal history. Inevitably, such a narrative is hard to credibly sustain for long: reality intrudes and a yawning abyss opens between the narcissist’s self-imputed divinity and his drab, pedestrian existence and attributes. I call it the Grandiosity Gap. Additionally, meaningful figures around the narcissist often refuse to play the parts allotted to them, rebel, and abandon the narcissist…
…Gradually, the disharmony between one’s perception of the universe and of oneself and reality becomes unbearable and engenders pathological, maladaptive, and dysfunctional attempts to either deny the hurtful discrepancy away (delusions and fantasies); grandiosely compensate for it by eliciting positive external voices to counter the negative, inner ones (narcissism via the False Self and its narcissistic supply); attack it (antisocial/psychopathy); withdraw from the world altogether (schizoid solution); or disappear by merging and fusing with another person (codependence.)
Once formed and functioning, the False Self stifles the growth of the True Self and paralyses it. Henceforth, the ossified True Self is virtually non-existent and plays no role (active or passive) in the conscious life of the narcissist. It is difficult to "resuscitate" it, even with psychotherapy. The False Self sometimes parades the child-like, vulnerable, needy, and innocent True Self in order to capture, manipulate, and attract empathic sources of narcissistic supply. When supply is low, the False Self is emaciated and dilapidated. It is unable to contain and repress the True Self which then emerges as a petulant, self-destructive, spoiled, and codependent entity. But the True Self’s moments in the sun are very brief and, usually, inconsequential…
…The False Self is a kind of positive projection: the narcissist’s attributes to it all the positive and desired aspects of himself, thereby endowing it with a quasi-separate existence. The False Self fulfils the role of a divinity in the narcissist’s obsessive-compulsive private religion: the narcissist worships it and adheres to ceremonies and rituals via which he interacts with it. The True Self, on the other hand, is ignored at best and usually denigrated. This process is akin to projective splitting: when parents project onto the golden child positive traits and talents even as they attribute to the scapegoat child negative, undesirable qualities. In this sense, the narcissist a parent with two offspring: his two selves.
There is no conflict between the True Self and the False Self. First, the True Self is much too weak to do battle with the overbearing False. Second, the False Self is adaptive (though maladaptive). It helps the True Self to cope with the world. Without the False Self, the True Self would be subjected to so much hurt that it will disintegrate. This happens to narcissists who go through a life crisis: their False Ego becomes dysfunctional and they experience a harrowing feeling of annulment.
The False Self has many functions. The two most important are:
1. It serves as a decoy, it "attracts the fire". It is a proxy for the True Self. It is tough as nails and can absorb any amount of pain, hurt and negative emotions. By inventing it, the child develops immunity to the indifference, manipulation, sadism, smothering, or exploitation – in short: to the abuse – inflicted on him by his parents (or by other Primary Objects in his life). It is a cloak, protecting him, rendering him invisible and omnipotent at the same time.
2. The False Self is misrepresented by the narcissist as his True Self. The narcissist is saying, in effect: "I am not who you think I am. I am someone else. I am this (False) Self. Therefore, I deserve a better, painless, more considerate treatment." The False Self, thus, is a contraption intended to alter other people's behaviour and attitude towards the narcissist…
…Why are narcissists not prone to suicide?
The simple answer is that they died a long time ago. Narcissists are the true zombies of the world.
Many scholars and therapists tried to grapple with the void at the core of the narcissist. The common view is that the remnants of the True Self are so ossified, shredded, cowed into submission and repressed – that, for all practical purposes, the True Self is dysfunctional and useless. In treating the narcissist, the therapist often tries to construct and nurture a completely new healthy self, rather than build upon the distorted wreckage strewn across the narcissist's psyche.
But what of the rare glimpses of True Self oft reported by those who interact with the narcissist?
Pathological narcissism is frequently comorbid with other disorders. The narcissistic spectrum is made up of gradations and shades of narcissism. Narcissistic traits or style or even personality (overlay) often attach to other disorders (co-morbidity). A person may well appear to be a full-fledged narcissist – may well appear to be suffering from the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) - but is not, in the strict, psychiatric, sense of the word. In such people, the True Self is still there and is sometimes observable…
From: The Dual Role of the Narcissist's False Self (tripod.com)
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
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Rocky
AFAI am concerned, the "great principle" is NOT in the bible. Ecclesiastes says there's no new thing under the sun, sometimes that's true. But "the preacher" who wrote Ecclesiastes didn't know much about astronomy beyond names of some of the most prominent constellations; didn't have anywhere near as much available knowledge of cosmology or healthcare or geology or electricity or any one of hundreds or thousands of sciences or other fields of study. However, there WERE philosophers back then. Thinkers.
MY Great Principle is Lifelong Learning. I clearly don't know nearly as much as I would like (or love) to know.
But this is one thing I learned a little bit about today.
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Bolshevik
I think of VPW, for a mental model, as on the dark end of the spectrum . . . to be so committed to what he did over and over.
He was a void, nothing was really there. He was never what he claimed, regardless of how many agreed with him.
People circle the void seeing a false image. Drawn to a fantasy. If VPW is removed (dies), it's still a void. The fantasy isn't all him.
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So_crates
I think of Saint Vic more as a vacuum, attempting to suck in everything within his grasp like a monsterous black hole.
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Rocky
Perhaps a more stark mental model for said kind of dark example of a void is a guy in the news all over the country the last couple of weeks for his pervasive, persistent prevarication. A guy who claims 142k people selected him for a seat in a certain national legislative body (in the US). But that 142k voted for somebody who conned them.
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T-Bone
more on the great unprincipled cult-leaders
false image...a fantasy…though in itself, it is a void, it still represents something – like an icon, the graphic representation on a screen – you click on it and it launches the program. For some reason that made me think of idols and revisit the great unprincipled cult-leader.
The great unprincipled cult-leader: The unscrupulous cult-leader who is deluded can only speak to others who are enamored with his greatness. Through indoctrination the unscrupulous cult-leader in effect teaches his or her ‘creation’ in you (the cultic mindset) – which is an alternate standard of how to think and act – and becomes manifested in the senses realm to the degree you become assimilated in the harmful and controlling cult.
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A cult of personality, or a cult of the leader, is the result of an effort which is made to create an idealized and heroic image of a leader, often through unquestioning flattery and praise. From Cult of personality - Wikipedia
Since the indoctrination process usually revolves around the cult-leader, the procedure is deemed successful when people are enamored with the cult-leader. Perhaps one of the most elusive things about the cult of wierwille is that he looms large – becoming greater than the sum of his plagiarized works and hypocritical stage act. He became an icon…a symbol of God’s Word to modern humankind.
Thinking symbolically is the foundation of everything we do -- we live in a symbolic world…Symbols are Shorthand For Ideas…Name some symbols. The Christian cross, the American flag, a wedding ring, a designer label. When we think about symbols, these are the sort of things that come to mind -- signs that act as a stand-in or shorthand for a whole set of ideas. From When Did We Become Mentally Modern? : NPR
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An idol is a symbol. I listened to a fascinating talk by Michael Heiser on idols. Some ideas from MH: In the ancient cultures an idol was made so that an entity…some deity could attach itself to the idol…it could reside there…it was the method for connecting to followers.
If the idol was destroyed in battle the people made new one that the entity could live in…In biblical thought God wants to reside with His people. God doesn’t need an object to attach to or to reside in – He’s everywhere! When people go for idols, they are trading the presence of God for some infinitesimal object! From: Michael S. Heiser - What's the Real Reason God Forbid Idols? | Facebook
I never considered that we have a tendency to make idols out of anything – until I read a fascinating book Idols for destruction: Christian faith and its confrontation with American society: Schlossberg, Herbert: 9780840752826: Amazon.com: Books
One of the verses mentioned was
New International Version
“Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? Ezekiel 14:3
Observe it says idols in their hearts. It’s invisible to others because they can’t see what’s in my heart…but what’s in the heart eventually becomes visible – here's Proverbs 4:23 in several versions:
New International Version
Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.
New Living Translation
Guard your heart above all else, for it determines the course of your life.
Amplified Bible
Watch over your heart with all diligence, For from it flow the springs of life.
Contemporary English Version
Carefully guard your thoughts because they are the source of true life.
NET Bible
Guard your heart with all vigilance, for from it are the sources of life.
The heart refers to the mind as the center of thinking and reason and includes emotions, the will and thus the whole being, affects speech and conduct…Jesus taught the same concept – and when a person has a defiled heart it’s expressed in both what the person says and does:
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”
6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”
17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”
Mark 7
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wierwille died but current top leadership for all practical purposes act as his high priests – they are the intermediary between the works and words of wierwille and his followers – they are authorized to properly interpret all things wierwille and enforce psychological punishment on the disobedient.
The intellectual and emotional appeal of wierwille is truly iconic – in fact from 12 years of dedicated involvement I frequently had - what I consider now an unsettling experience - when reading the Bible. I had sat through the class so many times and was so familiar with the class collaterals that it all was like an interpretive filter and PFAL-augmentation popping up in my head when reading the Bible. Like an icon on a computer screen, I’d read a verse and it was like a program launched relevant wierwille-definitions, remarks, concepts, and symbolism. It’s the same as having a portable study bible with extensive notes and commentary in your head. Yikes! Now that’s indoctrination!
That is the idea behind the great unprincipled cult-leader…That unscrupulous cult-leader wierwille who was seriously deluded could only speak to others who were / are enamored with his greatness.
Even now in 2023 through PFAL-Today-brainwashing unscrupulous cult-leaders still carry on the mission - creating and reinforcing the cultic mindset in grads – which is an alternate standard…the wierwille-standard of how to think and act – and becomes manifested in the senses realm to the degree you become integrated in the harmful and controlling cult of The Way International.
Edited by T-Boneedited for clarity...are we clear on that?
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Twinky
Exactly! Even all these years, decades, later, I can't easily the epistles in AV (KJV). Too much negative background.
The way I overcame this was to read The Message version, which is so simplistic whilst still delivering the same message. My mind simply could not run in PFAL tramlines. And then, I read various other versions. Now, I read one or two particular versions. My church uses NIV, which I don't particularly like.
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Bolshevik
I think you brought up "heart" earlier and I was pondering where thoughts come from in The Renewed Mind thread.
So the GP is a flow chart instructing people to open up, be unguarded.
I think someone here mentioned excellor/exceller sessions are meant to deal with fear. . . . Fear it sounds like was there with good reason. (Proverbs 4:23)
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Bolshevik
Nature abhors a vacuum.
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Bolshevik
I'm thankful for term limits, unlike Belarus.
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T-Bone
Yeah – I’ve got a convenient system - 8 versions in 2 volumes…kinda bulky – but handy:
The Essential Evangelical Parallel Bible (NKJV/ESV/NLT/The Message), hardcover: John R. Kohlenberger III: 9780195281804 - Christianbook.com
NIV, KJV, NASB, Amplified Parallel Bible--bonded leather, burgundy: 9780310446682 - Christianbook.com
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T-Bone
Yeah – that’s creepy…On another thread, I think Rocky mentioned something along the lines of mass hypnosis.
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Bolshevik
Iink?
We're still responsible for out actions when drunk or high. Voluntarily attending an intense course and getting tranced by it would be the same?
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T-Bone
here's the link - Rocky's comment on the Why PFAL sucks thread
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chockfull
Cool. I’ve read various versions even while in TWI. The things I really had to ditch were ministry related paper and my extensively marked up Oxford Bible which had been through a bunch of reconditioning and binding. That Bible was my scribe idol I call it so it was good to dispose of it.
Now I seem open to reading any version and the multi versions like TBone posts are usually what I see in any Bible software.
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