You got it almost correct, the strategy for Excellors’ Sessions.
But you have NOT moved on; maybe just attempting to move on. I see you and the others here are constantly stuck in the past mistakes and problems and catastrophes.
The latest thing I notice here in this thread is the mockery and criticism of SIT and T.I.P. and the Excellors' Sessions. You haven’t moved on from Excellors' Sessions when you all are bringing them up over and over. You all criticize much, what you don't understand.
It is obvious that none of you put much thought into the Great Principle (GP) as it was being taught to you, when you were new students of PFAL and the Intermediate Class. You are all just now floundering in new mis-understandings of the GP. I see you groping in the dark on this topic, and it looks like it's the first time.
I wonder if any of you were ever appointed to be the leader, in charge of conducting an Excellors' Session.
I wonder if any of you ever had a good leader to teach you in your early Excellors' Sessions.
*/*/*/*
The main strategy in conducting an Excellors' Session was FEAR MANAGEMENT.
*/*/*/*/*
People taking the Intermediate Class, especially for the first time, would have all sorts of fears and concerns about the genuineness of their SIT, and even greater fears about getting T.I.P. genuine.
Excellors' Sessions were supposed to be soothing love sessions where perfect love casts out all fear. They were supposed to be relaxing and fun, as well as horizon expanding. People needed to be able to make mistakes with T.I.P.,and then see that all is easily forgiven, and then try again.
Untangling the fears that hold people back was what Excellors' Session were all about.
It wasn’t at all a matter of us controlling the spirit; the Spirit’s willingness and ability were never in question.It was always fears that limited people in SIT fluency, and in TIP.When you mechanically remove the fears, the inspiration can happen with no effort.The fear management does require effort.
God is totally loving and gentle with His kids as they learn to walk. It blew my mind how many wonderful things could come out of the Excellors' Sessions in the early days of the ministry, when it wasn’t all Way Corps supervised.
Mike said: The main strategy in conducting an Excellors' Session was FEAR MANAGEMENT.
Me: There was so much fear because the focus was on people to perform, especially when called on to "manifest" in a "believer's meeting." Instead of practicing/pretending to SIT and interpret to overcome their fear, maybe they should have been shown from day one in the Word how to have a closer relationship with Christ.
Mike said: People taking the Intermediate Class, especially for the first time, would have all sorts of fears and concerns about the genuineness of their SIT, and even greater fears about getting T.I.P. genuine.
Me: Genuine - as opposed to fake. Your description of an excellors' session is a 5-senses (mechanical) approach to spiritual matters which are energized by the holy spirit - NOT an excellors' leader.
Mike said: Excellors' Sessions were supposed to be soothing love sessions where perfect love casts out all fear. They were supposed to be relaxing and fun, as well as horizon expanding. People needed to be able to make mistakes with T.I.P., and then see that all is easily forgiven, and then try again.
Me: twi was responsible for the fear in the first place because of their doctrine - the way that fear eased (if at all) was because twi was heaping them with enough praise during these "love fests" that people felt more comfortable performing. Also Mike said: "then see that all is easily forgiven?!" - Ooops - I thought forgiveness was needed after someone sinned. Knowing that I could sin while "manifesting" sure would put the fear of God in me!!!
This was a quick reply as my grandson has arrived .
The key WAS "the little box where vpw wanted us imprisoned." As any sociologist or social psychologist (or cultural anthropologist) could tell you, repetition of social rituals is used as reinforcement to keep people in a group. The ritualized behavior- like excellors sessions- is substituted for actual thinking, which keeps one in the bondage of a group like twi. As for the alphabet exercise, that's the most blatant part for reinforcing a deception- it's obvious that it's used to reinforce a VOLUNTARY BEHAVIOR (otherwise we could not reproduce around a LETTER) rather than energize something supernatural.
Most of us have moved on from the little boxes of twi- and the little boxes of people who chose their little boxes and want us in them as well.
No, thank you.
14 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
Like the Nazi salute?
. . . Ritualized voluntary behavior replacing actual thinking?
14 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
That thought you had that you left the coffee pot on . . . That's revelation . . . God is talking
If you can spontaneously fluently speak languages you've never heard of . . . Of course God is speaking to you.
So not only fill your head with SIT continuously . . . But listen to revelation coming at the same time
How does one not split their insides in two?
Great posts WordWolf and Bolshevik !
Got me thinking…uh oh…
hence
The great unprincipled cult-leader
My wife and I watched The Three Faces of Eve (1957) - IMDb last night – it is a 1957 American film noir mystery drama film presented in CinemaScope, based on the book of the same name about the life of Chris Costner Sizemore, which was written by psychiatrists Corbett H. Thigpen and Hervey M. Cleckley, who also helped write the screenplay. Sizemore, also known as Eve White, was a woman they suggested might have dissociative identity disorder (then known as multiple personality disorder). Sizemore's identity was concealed in interviews about this film and was not revealed to the public until 1977. The film was directed by Nunnally Johnson. From:The Three Faces of Eve - Wikipedia
The film got me primed to read these posts this morning in a new light, and reframe the problem. The narrative of The Three Faces of Eve unravels a mystery. The film depicts a psychiatrist who attempts to understand and deal with twoincomplete and inadequate personalities inside Eve. In one session, a third personality emerges, a relatively stable personality named Jane. The psychiatrist eventually prompts his patient to remember a traumatic eventin Eve's childhood. Her grandmother had died when she was six, and according to family custom, relatives were supposed to kiss the dead person at the viewing, making it easier for them to let go. While Eve screams, her mother forces her to kiss the corpse. Apparently, Eve's terror led to the creation of different personalities.
I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to consider indoctrination into a cult as a low-energy trauma. And by no means do I wish to minimize the compounding of high-energy traumasome experienced from sexual molestation, intense psychological and physical abuse from cult-leaders, parents, etc..
I think human beings are capable of enduring very difficult situations, hardships, unpleasant conditions, etc.…. And something else I’ve observed on Grease Spot Caféis that we are resilient too – that we are able to withstand a lot of hellish stuff and if given enough time – which varies for everyone – we can recover…survive…and hopefully thrive. My two-bit amateur psychology theory is that as followers of a harmful and abusive cult develop some coping mechanisms in our psyche…processes that help us manage the stress / trauma and optimistically diminish the intensity of the pain. Sometimes it’s easier to go along with the ritualized behavior – somewhat of a go-with-the-flow attitude - to accept a situation, rather than trying to alter or control it.
I’m not suggesting cult-followers develop multiple personalities. For our discussion I’m going with a simple definition:
In psychology, the notion of the self refers to a person’s experience as a single, unitary, autonomous being that is separate from others, experienced with continuity through time and place. The experience of the self includes consciousness of one’s physicality as well as one’s inner character and emotional life.
One of the reasons I study the Bible is for self-improvement to develop my knowledge / wisdom / character. The Bible isn’t my only resource for that – but so that I’m not going all over the map with the influence / inspiration from other books, films, TV, music, art, and even Grease Spot Café – I’m limiting my reference to mostly the Bible for this discussion.
Something the film The Three Faces of Eve did for me in light of these recent posts was get me to re-think a basic Christian concept of self-improvement – the struggle of the unregenerate-selfversus the revitalized-self- - the old manversus the new man…For a Christian who gets suckered into a pseudo-Christian cult, there is a ‘third self’that is put forth as the new man – the ideal you.
I believe wierwille / The Way Internationalhijackedthe abstract idea of the new manmentioned in the epistles of Paul. By taking advantage of a Christian’s desire to better themselves – in a bait-and-switch ploy, wierwille / TWI presented a submissive and compliant attitudeas something to be admired and indicative of Christlike behavior. I think my use of the word ‘hijacked’ is appropriate because it is the unauthorized seizure of a soul’s journey - compelling one toward a different direction or destination– basically using the person for one's own purposes.
So, let’s look at the old manand the new manin the Bible…I’ve put certain words and phrases in a red fontthat are pertinent to our discussion – and we find that in this battle we are not going at it alone – we have the Holy Spirit’s help too!
~ ~ ~ ~
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin — 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
4 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
So… summarizing my thoughts – as a Christian and survivor of a pseudo-Christian cult, i looked at 3 alternatives to create a plan for self-improvement. After which I will submit a redefinition of wierwille’s great principle– which I call the great unprincipled cult-leader.
1.the natural self. Our fallen human nature. The unregenerate person. That’s our unredeemed self. That’s us withoutany of the light and influence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Keep doing the same old thing. Enjoy the rut. Nothing like a bad habit to depend on for autopilot
2.the supernatural self. The ideal person – the “new” inner self – it’s new in terms of it didn’t exist until the light and influence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit came into your life. There may not be a Stephen-Spielberg-big-Hollywood-production in your life that stands out as when it all began.... thereafter at times we realize we need to get out of a rut…Often a way to break a bad habit is to start a good habit to take its place.
3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So, it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
Jesus was explaining that we cannot control the work of the Holy Spirit. He works in ways we cannot predict or understand.
you’re really the same person but now freed from the control of our fallen nature. There is now a spiritual battle both within and without – inner conflicts from worldly temptations that may still hold their appeal to the typical and personally unique pressures of daily living are unavoidable skirmishes. Philosophers and Diaspora Jewish intellectuals often advocated cultivating the mind, the ‘inner person’ or ‘inner being’, as over the passions of the body. Sometimes they used war imagery to depict this conflict – ‘waging war’, (Romans 7:23) Paul depicts a mind here that has been taken prisoner of war by the members of his body.
Ourold self, thebody of sin(Romans 6:6) are synonymous – and refers to sinful tendencies that are entangled with bodily weaknesses and pleasures. The old selfis ‘dead’ – but this is figurative and not literal. Sin retains a foothold in our humanness. Conceptually it’s not that we have two competing natures – the old and the new. It’s like the supernatural self has been revitalized but we are now aware there’s a part of ourselves finds still shackled to an unredeemed physical body; the term ‘flesh’ is equivalent to the physical body, which can be an instrument for holiness (Romans 6: 19; 12:1 )
According to the Bible humankind was created to enjoy a beautiful planet, relationships without friction, and fellowship without distance. But something went wrong – and something is still wrong, and we know it, both within our world and within ourselves. Religions, philosophy, psychology, sociology, politics, and just about everyone else who doesn’t live under a rock is trying to resolve what went wrong. I for one like to check out all the options and viewpoints available instead of limiting myself to one problematic ideology like wierwille’s theology.
3.the adaptive self- the ‘new you’ as specified by the cult-leader. This may be misrepresented as the supernatural self – the ideal self. How the cult-leader says you should think, and act becomes the new standard – which you are expected to adopt…I got into this on another thread- hereand here- so you can check those out another time at your convenience...as it is, this post is too damn long
As an example of modeling counterfeit Christianity, under the pretext of prepping leaders for counseling wierwille would show the way corps some inappropriate video and then handle any shock and disgust of the students by saying stuff like renew your mind or the love of God doesn’t think evil.
~ ~ ~ ~
…and now for the finale…
The great unprincipled cult-leader:
The unscrupulous cult-leader who is deluded can only speak to others who are enamored with his greatness. Through indoctrination the unscrupulous cult-leader in effect teaches his or her ‘creation’ in you (the cultic mindset) – which is an alternate standard of how to think and act – and becomes manifested in the senses realm to the degree you become assimilated in the harmful and controlling cult.
...Instead of ending on a positive note I thought I’d end on a sour note
Well – that’s all for now, folks
Edited by T-Bone to un-bold the bolded - - I guess I didn't bold well :)
But of course, because this is Seneca, he couldn’t just leave it there. In fact, telling us about this old expression was just a device to make a point. A better way to say it, he writes, is “‘If you are studying philosophy, it is well.’ For this is just what ‘being well’ means. Without philosophy the mind is sickly, and the body, too, though it may be very powerful, is strong only as that of a madman or a lunatic is strong.”
The point is that to the Stoics, the practice and study of philosophy was the only way to make sure all was well, no matter what was happening in the world.
It is obvious that none of you put much thought into the Great Principle (GP) as it was being taught to you, when you were new students of PFAL and the Intermediate Class. You are all just now floundering in new mis-understandings of the GP. I see you groping in the dark on this topic, and it looks like it's the first time.
In all honesty, if the "great principle" causes such blindness in understanding the things of God; if it causes such stubbornness in recognising evil; if it causes one to think that Jesus Christ will return with the orange book in his hand - well, all I can say is I really don't want it, I don't want any of that.
What works for me is praise and thanksgiving, acknowledging God in all my ways, and respecting (and to the best of my ability obeying) the things expected of me by God. Then I have peace, and, somehow, gentle knowledge manifests itself and I "just know" the right thing to do or say or understand.
Seems a lot simpler than tying oneself in knots understanding some "great principle" that nobody can agree on - and that God didn't think important enough to spell out in minute (or any) detail in his Owners Manual.
It is obvious that none of you put much thought into the Great Principle (GP) as it was being taught to you, when you were new students of PFAL and the Intermediate Class. You are all just now floundering in new mis-understandings of the GP. I see you groping in the dark on this topic, and it looks like it's the first time
You got it almost correct, the strategy for Excellors’ Sessions.
But you have NOT moved on; maybe just attempting to move on. I see you and the others here are constantly stuck in the past mistakes and problems and catastrophes.
The latest thing I notice here in this thread is the mockery and criticism of SIT and T.I.P. and the Excellors' Sessions. You haven’t moved on from Excellors' Sessions when you all are bringing them up over and over. You all criticize much, what you don't understand.
It is obvious that none of you put much thought into the Great Principle (GP) as it was being taught to you, when you were new students of PFAL and the Intermediate Class. You are all just now floundering in new mis-understandings of the GP. I see you groping in the dark on this topic, and it looks like it's the first time.
I wonder if any of you were ever appointed to be the leader, in charge of conducting an Excellors' Session.
I wonder if any of you ever had a good leader to teach you in your early Excellors' Sessions.
*/*/*/*
The main strategy in conducting an Excellors' Session was FEAR MANAGEMENT.
*/*/*/*/*
People taking the Intermediate Class, especially for the first time, would have all sorts of fears and concerns about the genuineness of their SIT, and even greater fears about getting T.I.P. genuine.
Excellors' Sessions were supposed to be soothing love sessions where perfect love casts out all fear. They were supposed to be relaxing and fun, as well as horizon expanding. People needed to be able to make mistakes with T.I.P.,and then see that all is easily forgiven, and then try again.
Untangling the fears that hold people back was what Excellors' Session were all about.
It wasn’t at all a matter of us controlling the spirit; the Spirit’s willingness and ability were never in question.It was always fears that limited people in SIT fluency, and in TIP.When you mechanically remove the fears, the inspiration can happen with no effort.The fear management does require effort.
God is totally loving and gentle with His kids as they learn to walk. It blew my mind how many wonderful things could come out of the Excellors' Sessions in the early days of the ministry, when it wasn’t all Way Corps supervised.
And here is the fool’s ego coming out for another turn. To answer your question I have run far more Intermediate Classes than you will ever run and have run hundreds more Excellor sessions than you will ever in your life.
I’ve had plenty of people progress through both successfully and I can’t remember even one unsuccessful dropout.
But no don’t listen to me listen to the big Fathead Mike because he and his ego know how to adopt a parent - child tone while trolling.
The main goal was to perform on command immediately. That is the doctrinal error. Johnny Jump Up stand SIT and interpret.
In a true loving environment there is zero fear of “performance” because people only speak when they feel led to like a “season of prayer” and they can SIT or offer another common language spoken inspiration that could be interpretation or prophecy depending on timing and viewpoint.
VPWs clear butchery of Greek prepositions has a whole other look and feel all very controlled by the coordinator.
The true love is in correcting the doctrine and practice. It frees rather than binds.
I wish him success... maybe not with his stated goals, but rather with what might be his actual heart's desires.
I think of Psalm 37
Trust in the Lord and do good;
dwell in the land and enjoy safe pasture.
4 Take delight in the Lord,
and he will give you the desires of your heart.
5 Commit your way to the Lord;
trust in him and he will do this:
6 He will make your righteous reward shine like the dawn,
your vindication like the noonday sun.
7 Be still before the Lord
and wait patiently for him;
What got me thinking about that? This YT video.
Then, like rivers of understanding running together in my mind, I looked up this book and immediately requested it (put it on hold) at my local public library.
THEN I considered how and why Mike is so apparently not successful in his state goals (getting GSC readers to believe him about Wierwille's ministry and writings.
Robin Dreeke might have some insight on that issue. What do you think?
The following paragraph is from the above article:
"These four types of power all come together when we operate our gift of holy spirit. The potential power (dunamis) given to each born-again believer is exercised and put into operation by our freewill decision because we have the authority and right (exousia). God energizes (energeō) the power as we believe and decide to act, resulting in the manifestation of that power (kratos), power with an impact."
A verse is given for each Greek word except exousia. Written earlier in the article is, "Next, exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis." Instead of a verse, they go into the old "driving a car" example.
I found this curious, so I did a quick check on Bible Hub for the Greek word, and I didn't see a verse about exousia and the believer having it to "operate the spirit." It showed the following who have/had it: Jesus (both in the gospels and in the epistles), the god of this world, the apostles but only in the context of how they conducted themselves with the church and others but only in the earthly realm.
Since the statements above are used to support twi's GP, does anyone know of scriptural backup for this?
Oh, forgot that twi will just use the "your spirit" theory to rationalize "exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis."
Again they prove deceitful in their handling of God's word by using the "bait and switch" con. They bait you by "namedroping" God (where He isn't) when they say "exousia is God-given" so you can "exercise the dunamis." THEN they switch it over in the GP to since it is your spirit, you actually control it.
In other words, you (NOT GOD) give yourself the right and privilege to control the spirit because, after all, it is your spirit.
Your spirit, your authority - it's all about you, you, you!
Re-read those passages – and see below – I marked the sentences with red font to indicate in the context God, the Son and The Holy Spirit ARE mentioned in close proximity – indicating interagency:
I can see from your post how the "flowchart" you had previously shared (and I still agree with) does not convey the incredible interagency between God, the Son and the holy spirit as laid out in the epistles such as Galatians. I began reading Colossians today and I marvel at how God, Christ and the holy spirit worked together to reconcile us back to God and continue to work together to help us live out that reconciliation.
For example: Col 1:9b-13
We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives, 10 so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11 being strengthened with all power [via holy spirit] according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, 12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
This has got to be one of the most glaringly obvious interpolations* made by wierwille in his egocentric* theology-it all revolves around him – he’s got holy spirit…he operates it…below I’m quoting from TWI’s website, and I rendered in red font the smoking gun:
I Corinthians 12:11:
But all these [nine manifestations of holy spirit] worketh [energeō, are energized by] that one and the selfsame Spirit [God], dividing to every man severally [distributing to every man his own] as he [the man] will.
Energeō is the verb form of energēma, the kinetic, energized power of God. It is dunamis in operation. The manifestations of holy spirit are energized by God as each believer wills, or maturely deliberates. We can see the nine manifestations of holy spirit listed in I Corinthians 12:8-10. These manifestations can be operated by every believer, and every manifestation of the gift of holy spirit is profitable. Each believer operates God’s power when they decide and believe to do so.
Below I’ve copied and pasted I Corinthians 12:11 from other versions – these are from Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages – are very useful resource for parallel passages, lexicons, interlinear, commentaries - - and navigating the website is super easy! …anyway - note the same verse in other versions - and see that the translators correctlyobserve the context of the verse and entire chapter to indicate that it is the Holy Spirit who does the distributing:
New International Version All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
New Living Translation It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.
New King James Version But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
New American Standard Bible But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
Amplified Bible All these things [the gifts, the achievements, the abilities, the empowering] are brought about by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, distributing to each one individually just as He chooses.
NET Bible It is one and the same Spirit, distributing as he decides to each person, who produces all these things.
Weymouth New Testament But these results are all brought about by one and the same Spirit, who bestows His gifts upon each of us in accordance with His own will.
Contemporary English Version But it is the Spirit who does all this and decides which gifts to give to each of us.
~ ~ ~ ~
The above translations challenge the egocentric*interpolations*of wierwille and The Way International; or rather wierwille and The Way Internationalcontradict the natural sense and context of I Corinthians 12:11 – because the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts and decides who gets what… read the context - you’ll notice it even shoots holes in wierwille’s attempt to produce a one-man-show promoting ‘each believer can operate all nine manifestations’- observe verse 11 is nestled in the ideas of unity and diversity:
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
interpolation* = the insertion of something of a different nature into something else; a remark interjected in a conversation; in math, interpolation is at the root a simple mathematical concept. In short, interpolation is a process of determining the unknown values that lie in between the known data points. It is mostly used to predict the unknown values for any geographical related data points such as noise level, rainfall, elevation, and so on.
egocentric* = thinking only of oneself, without regard for the feelings or desires of others; self-centered; egocentrism refers to someone's inability to understand that another person's view or opinion may be different than their own; It refers to a limited worldview, with a person focusing only on his needs. An egocentric person may become obsessed with them. Egocentric people often show a lack of empathy for others. They cannot see things from a different point of view than their own. Another feature of this behavior is the ‘imaginary audience’.
My wife and I watched The Three Faces of Eve (1957) - IMDb last night – it is a 1957 American film noir mystery drama film presented in CinemaScope, based on the book of the same name about the life of Chris Costner Sizemore, which was written by psychiatrists Corbett H. Thigpen and Hervey M. Cleckley, who also helped write the screenplay. Sizemore, also known as Eve White, was a woman they suggested might have dissociative identity disorder (then known as multiple personality disorder). Sizemore's identity was concealed in interviews about this film and was not revealed to the public until 1977. The film was directed by Nunnally Johnson. From:The Three Faces of Eve - Wikipedia
The film got me primed to read these posts this morning in a new light, and reframe the problem. The narrative of The Three Faces of Eve unravels a mystery. The film depicts a psychiatrist who attempts to understand and deal with twoincomplete and inadequate personalities inside Eve. In one session, a third personality emerges, a relatively stable personality named Jane. The psychiatrist eventually prompts his patient to remember a traumatic eventin Eve's childhood. Her grandmother had died when she was six, and according to family custom, relatives were supposed to kiss the dead person at the viewing, making it easier for them to let go. While Eve screams, her mother forces her to kiss the corpse. Apparently, Eve's terror led to the creation of different personalities.
I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to consider indoctrination into a cult as a low-energy trauma. And by no means do I wish to minimize the compounding of high-energy traumasome experienced from sexual molestation, intense psychological and physical abuse from cult-leaders, parents, etc..
I think human beings are capable of enduring very difficult situations, hardships, unpleasant conditions, etc.…. And something else I’ve observed on Grease Spot Caféis that we are resilient too – that we are able to withstand a lot of hellish stuff and if given enough time – which varies for everyone – we can recover…survive…and hopefully thrive. My two-bit amateur psychology theory is that as followers of a harmful and abusive cult develop some coping mechanisms in our psyche…processes that help us manage the stress / trauma and optimistically diminish the intensity of the pain. Sometimes it’s easier to go along with the ritualized behavior – somewhat of a go-with-the-flow attitude - to accept a situation, rather than trying to alter or control it.
I’m not suggesting cult-followers develop multiple personalities. For our discussion I’m going with a simple definition:
In psychology, the notion of the self refers to a person’s experience as a single, unitary, autonomous being that is separate from others, experienced with continuity through time and place. The experience of the self includes consciousness of one’s physicality as well as one’s inner character and emotional life.
One of the reasons I study the Bible is for self-improvement to develop my knowledge / wisdom / character. The Bible isn’t my only resource for that – but so that I’m not going all over the map with the influence / inspiration from other books, films, TV, music, art, and even Grease Spot Café – I’m limiting my reference to mostly the Bible for this discussion.
Something the film The Three Faces of Eve did for me in light of these recent posts was get me to re-think a basic Christian concept of self-improvement – the struggle of the unregenerate-selfversus the revitalized-self- - the old manversus the new man…For a Christian who gets suckered into a pseudo-Christian cult, there is a ‘third self’that is put forth as the new man – the ideal you.
I believe wierwille / The Way Internationalhijackedthe abstract idea of the new manmentioned in the epistles of Paul. By taking advantage of a Christian’s desire to better themselves – in a bait-and-switch ploy, wierwille / TWI presented a submissive and compliant attitudeas something to be admired and indicative of Christlike behavior. I think my use of the word ‘hijacked’ is appropriate because it is the unauthorized seizure of a soul’s journey - compelling one toward a different direction or destination– basically using the person for one's own purposes.
So, let’s look at the old manand the new manin the Bible…I’ve put certain words and phrases in a red fontthat are pertinent to our discussion – and we find that in this battle we are not going at it alone – we have the Holy Spirit’s help too!
~ ~ ~ ~
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin — 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
4 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
So… summarizing my thoughts – as a Christian and survivor of a pseudo-Christian cult, i looked at 3 alternatives to create a plan for self-improvement. After which I will submit a redefinition of wierwille’s great principle– which I call the great unprincipled cult-leader.
1.the natural self. Our fallen human nature. The unregenerate person. That’s our unredeemed self. That’s us withoutany of the light and influence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Keep doing the same old thing. Enjoy the rut. Nothing like a bad habit to depend on for autopilot
2.the supernatural self. The ideal person – the “new” inner self – it’s new in terms of it didn’t exist until the light and influence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit came into your life. There may not be a Stephen-Spielberg-big-Hollywood-production in your life that stands out as when it all began.... thereafter at times we realize we need to get out of a rut…Often a way to break a bad habit is to start a good habit to take its place.
3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So, it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
Jesus was explaining that we cannot control the work of the Holy Spirit. He works in ways we cannot predict or understand.
you’re really the same person but now freed from the control of our fallen nature. There is now a spiritual battle both within and without – inner conflicts from worldly temptations that may still hold their appeal to the typical and personally unique pressures of daily living are unavoidable skirmishes. Philosophers and Diaspora Jewish intellectuals often advocated cultivating the mind, the ‘inner person’ or ‘inner being’, as over the passions of the body. Sometimes they used war imagery to depict this conflict – ‘waging war’, (Romans 7:23) Paul depicts a mind here that has been taken prisoner of war by the members of his body.
Ourold self, thebody of sin(Romans 6:6) are synonymous – and refers to sinful tendencies that are entangled with bodily weaknesses and pleasures. The old selfis ‘dead’ – but this is figurative and not literal. Sin retains a foothold in our humanness. Conceptually it’s not that we have two competing natures – the old and the new. It’s like the supernatural self has been revitalized but we are now aware there’s a part of ourselves finds still shackled to an unredeemed physical body; the term ‘flesh’ is equivalent to the physical body, which can be an instrument for holiness (Romans 6: 19; 12:1 )
According to the Bible humankind was created to enjoy a beautiful planet, relationships without friction, and fellowship without distance. But something went wrong – and something is still wrong, and we know it, both within our world and within ourselves. Religions, philosophy, psychology, sociology, politics, and just about everyone else who doesn’t live under a rock is trying to resolve what went wrong. I for one like to check out all the options and viewpoints available instead of limiting myself to one problematic ideology like wierwille’s theology.
3.the adaptive self- the ‘new you’ as specified by the cult-leader. This may be misrepresented as the supernatural self – the ideal self. How the cult-leader says you should think, and act becomes the new standard – which you are expected to adopt…I got into this on another thread- hereand here- so you can check those out another time at your convenience...as it is, this post is too damn long
As an example of modeling counterfeit Christianity, under the pretext of prepping leaders for counseling wierwille would show the way corps some inappropriate video and then handle any shock and disgust of the students by saying stuff like renew your mind or the love of God doesn’t think evil.
~ ~ ~ ~
…and now for the finale…
The great unprincipled cult-leader:
The unscrupulous cult-leader who is deluded can only speak to others who are enamored with his greatness. Through indoctrination the unscrupulous cult-leader in effect teaches his or her ‘creation’ in you (the cultic mindset) – which is an alternate standard of how to think and act – and becomes manifested in the senses realm to the degree you become assimilated in the harmful and controlling cult.
...Instead of ending on a positive note I thought I’d end on a sour note
Oh, forgot that twi will just use the "your spirit" theory to rationalize "exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis."
Again they prove deceitful in their handling of God's word by using the "bait and switch" con. They bait you by "namedroping" God (where He isn't) when they say "exousia is God-given" so you can "exercise the dunamis." THEN they switch it over in the GP to since it is your spirit, you actually control it.
In other words, you (NOT GOD) give yourself the right and privilege to control the spirit because, after all, it is your spirit.
Your spirit, your authority - it's all about you, you, you!
Having done word studies on exousia in scripture I think the first place it shows up is when Jesus taught with authority not like the scribes.
I would exhort them to leave the idols in human and written form and get back to the true power of our Lord Jesus Christ - who wasn’t a fundamentalist scribe.
The following paragraph is from the above article:
"These four types of power all come together when we operate our gift of holy spirit. The potential power (dunamis) given to each born-again believer is exercised and put into operation by our freewill decision because we have the authority and right (exousia). God energizes (energeō) the power as we believe and decide to act, resulting in the manifestation of that power (kratos), power with an impact."
A verse is given for each Greek word except exousia. Written earlier in the article is, "Next, exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis." Instead of a verse, they go into the old "driving a car" example.
I found this curious, so I did a quick check on Bible Hub for the Greek word, and I didn't see a verse about exousia and the believer having it to "operate the spirit." It showed the following who have/had it: Jesus (both in the gospels and in the epistles), the god of this world, the apostles but only in the context of how they conducted themselves with the church and others but only in the earthly realm.
Since the statements above are used to support twi's GP, does anyone know of scriptural backup for this?
5 hours ago, Charity said:
Oh, forgot that twi will just use the "your spirit" theory to rationalize "exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis."
Again they prove deceitful in their handling of God's word by using the "bait and switch" con. They bait you by "namedroping" God (where He isn't) when they say "exousia is God-given" so you can "exercise the dunamis." THEN they switch it over in the GP to since it is your spirit, you actually control it.
In other words, you (NOT GOD) give yourself the right and privilege to control the spirit because, after all, it is your spirit.
Your spirit, your authority - it's all about you, you, you!
good catch, Charity!
I believe the reason TWI doesn’t quote a verse to support the following statements of theirs is because there is no scriptural justification:
“…Next, exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis. It is like being given a driver’s license and the key to the car. As believers we have the authoritative power to operate God’s gift. We have the potential power and the authority, but it is up to us whether or not we operate that power…”
NO verse supports wierwille’s egocentric idea! Chalk it up to wierwille’s signature intuition– how the cult-leader feels it should be interpreted…outside of TWI-cult-followers wierwille’s signature intuition has NO AUTHORITY.
From the few references*I checked (see below) the Greek word “exousia” covers a lot of ground – to cite just a few usages – it’s used of the absolute authority and supremacy of Christ, the limited and specified authority Jesus gave to His disciples over unclean spirits, the organization of Satan and the rulers of darkness, government authority, and in the book of Revelation believers will be given the right to eat of the tree of life.
But I have NOTfound a verse that supports the idea that:
“ exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis” NOPE – wish I had the God-given right and privilege to exorcise the dumb-a$$ spirit that is so influential in the TWI-mindset.
“It is like being given a driver’s license and the key to the car” – NOPE!There is no Divine Department of Motor Vehicles nor is there a Divine Car Dealership…after taking PFALor PFAL Todayit’s like you’re given a student-driver-permit to run over Scripture…I still have mine from 1974 - - >Double O 6(that’s nada, nada, the number for man) license to regurgitate what the cult-leader taught me.
“As believers we have the authoritative power to operate God’s gift” – not exactly, Scripture says to use whatever gifts you have to serve others.
“We have the potential power and the authority” – get it straight – give credit where credit is due – to God be the glory! remember the flowchart: God the Father - - > Jesus Christ - - > The Holy Spirit - - > you.
“but it is up to us whether or not we operate that power” – that’s a whole lotta talk and nothing to show for it…oh yeah, some relevant thoughts: The Bible teaches the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts – the unity and diversity indicated in I Corinthians 12 means every believer does NOT get all nine. And those aren't the only gifts - there's more - but that's another post .
So why is it at the end of a PFAL class all students are expected to speak in tongues? What are the chances that every student receives the gift of tongues? Why don’t the class coordinators go around the room and ask the Holy Spirit to indicate what student got what? One student over here is getting word of knowledge that wierwille plagiarized all the material in the class. Another student over there is discerning spirits that wierwille is lying through his teeth. The door to the classroom blows open and a $100 bill miraculously falls into the hands of another student - divine reimbursement for money poorly spent on the PFAL class . And one student is tearing up her syllabus – laughing with tears of joy as she shouts, “Thank you Jesus, my cognitive skills have been healed...what a bunch of bull$hit !!!!”
I think the analysis of wierwille’s great principleon this thread has brought to light several dubious ideas, Scripture twisting and logical fallacies – there’s probably more!
I wish him success... maybe not with his stated goals, but rather with what might be his actual heart's desires.
I think of Psalm 37
Trust in the Lord and do good;
dwell in the land and enjoy safe pasture.
4 Take delight in the Lord,
and he will give you the desires of your heart.
5 Commit your way to the Lord;
trust in him and he will do this:
6 He will make your righteous reward shine like the dawn,
your vindication like the noonday sun.
7 Be still before the Lord
and wait patiently for him;
No, I have not ignored anyone, though a lot does slip by me just from the sheer volume of it all. I've been reading a lot of the archives and pondering things.
After 20 years of posting, my "stated goals" are going through an evolution. I see lots of change in the air.
I believe the reason TWI doesn’t quote a verse to support the following statements of theirs is because there is no scriptural justification:
“…Next, exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis. It is like being given a driver’s license and the key to the car. As believers we have the authoritative power to operate God’s gift. We have the potential power and the authority, but it is up to us whether or not we operate that power…”
NO verse supports wierwille’s egocentric idea! Chalk it up to wierwille’s signature intuition– how the cult-leader feels it should be interpreted…outside of TWI-cult-followers wierwille’s signature intuition has NO AUTHORITY.
From the few references*I checked (see below) the Greek word “exousia” covers a lot of ground – to cite just a few usages – it’s used of the absolute authority and supremacy of Christ, the limited and specified authority Jesus gave to His disciples over unclean spirits, the organization of Satan and the rulers of darkness, government authority, and in the book of Revelation believers will be given the right to eat of the tree of life.
But I have NOTfound a verse that supports the idea that:
“ exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis” NOPE – wish I had the God-given right and privilege to exorcise the dumb-a$$ spirit that is so influential in the TWI-mindset.
“It is like being given a driver’s license and the key to the car” – NOPE!There is no Divine Department of Motor Vehicles nor is there a Divine Car Dealership…after taking PFALor PFAL Todayit’s like you’re given a student-driver-permit to run over Scripture…I still have mine from 1974 - - >Double O 6(that’s nada, nada, the number for man) license to regurgitate what the cult-leader taught me.
“As believers we have the authoritative power to operate God’s gift” – not exactly, Scripture says to use whatever gifts you have to serve others.
“We have the potential power and the authority” – get it straight – give credit where credit is due – to God be the glory! remember the flowchart: God the Father - - > Jesus Christ - - > The Holy Spirit - - > you.
“but it is up to us whether or not we operate that power” – that’s a whole lotta talk and nothing to show for it…oh yeah, some relevant thoughts: The Bible teaches the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts – the unity and diversity indicated in I Corinthians 12 means every believer does NOT get all nine. And those aren't the only gifts - there's more - but that's another post .
So why is it at the end of a PFAL class all students are expected to speak in tongues? What are the chances that every student receives the gift of tongues? Why don’t the class coordinators go around the room and ask the Holy Spirit to indicate what student got what? One student over here is getting word of knowledge that wierwille plagiarized all the material in the class. Another student over there is discerning spirits that wierwille is lying through his teeth. The door to the classroom blows open and a $100 bill miraculously falls into the hands of another student - divine reimbursement for money poorly spent on the PFAL class . And one student is tearing up her syllabus – laughing with tears of joy as she shouts, “Thank you Jesus, my cognitive skills have been healed...what a bunch of bull$hit !!!!”
I think the analysis of wierwille’s great principleon this thread has brought to light several dubious ideas, Scripture twisting and logical fallacies – there’s probably more!
I haven't read your post yet, but I might have to throw that catch back into the lake. Matthew 10:11 says, "1Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness."
I haven't read your post yet, but I might have to throw that catch back into the lake. Matthew 10:11 says, "1Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness."
I'll post more later.
Your catch is still good - that verse came up in several lexicons and on the website Got Questions org - and how most explain it is Jesus gave them measured authority as a divine authentication that the apostles were certified to continue Jesus’ mission.
Having done word studies on exousia in scripture I think the first place it shows up is when Jesus taught with authority not like the scribes.
I would exhort them to leave the idols in human and written form and get back to the true power of our Lord Jesus Christ - who wasn’t a fundamentalist scribe.
"Exousia" means "AUTHORITY", period. Only twi an ex-twi feel the need to add layers of complications and connections (like to "dunamis.") The concept of "authority" is not hard to grasp- which is probably why vpw had to add complicated stuff to it- to convince people to pay money for information on something that needed no explanation.
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Matthew 8:5-10 (KJV)
5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marveled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
----------------------------
That man had supreme confidence in the AUTHORITY of Jesus to deliver that he was confident that- if Jesus pronounced the deliverance, it would happen regardless of distance and him seeing the result. The man understood how AUTHORITY worked- he gave orders, and they were followed. So, if Jesus gave the order for his servant to be healed, he was confident that the healing would happen due to Jesus' AUTHORITY to do so.
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Charity
Reading twi's article both was emotionally and physically sickening. It so reinforced the doctrinal and practical errors that robbed believers of having a personal relationship with God and Jesus Chr
Bolshevik
Rocky
Who among you (or us) might be strategic thinkers? Was Victor Wierwille a strategic thinker? (not necessarily a rhetorical question) Is Mike a strategic thinker? (rhetorical questi
Charity
Mike said: The main strategy in conducting an Excellors' Session was FEAR MANAGEMENT.
Me: There was so much fear because the focus was on people to perform, especially when called on to "manifest" in a "believer's meeting." Instead of practicing/pretending to SIT and interpret to overcome their fear, maybe they should have been shown from day one in the Word how to have a closer relationship with Christ.
Mike said: People taking the Intermediate Class, especially for the first time, would have all sorts of fears and concerns about the genuineness of their SIT, and even greater fears about getting T.I.P. genuine.
Me: Genuine - as opposed to fake. Your description of an excellors' session is a 5-senses (mechanical) approach to spiritual matters which are energized by the holy spirit - NOT an excellors' leader.
Mike said: Excellors' Sessions were supposed to be soothing love sessions where perfect love casts out all fear. They were supposed to be relaxing and fun, as well as horizon expanding. People needed to be able to make mistakes with T.I.P., and then see that all is easily forgiven, and then try again.
Me: twi was responsible for the fear in the first place because of their doctrine - the way that fear eased (if at all) was because twi was heaping them with enough praise during these "love fests" that people felt more comfortable performing. Also Mike said: "then see that all is easily forgiven?!" - Ooops - I thought forgiveness was needed after someone sinned. Knowing that I could sin while "manifesting" sure would put the fear of God in me!!!
This was a quick reply as my grandson has arrived
.
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T-Bone
Great posts WordWolf and Bolshevik !
Got me thinking…uh oh…
hence
The great unprincipled cult-leader
My wife and I watched The Three Faces of Eve (1957) - IMDb last night – it is a 1957 American film noir mystery drama film presented in CinemaScope, based on the book of the same name about the life of Chris Costner Sizemore, which was written by psychiatrists Corbett H. Thigpen and Hervey M. Cleckley, who also helped write the screenplay. Sizemore, also known as Eve White, was a woman they suggested might have dissociative identity disorder (then known as multiple personality disorder). Sizemore's identity was concealed in interviews about this film and was not revealed to the public until 1977. The film was directed by Nunnally Johnson. From: The Three Faces of Eve - Wikipedia
The film got me primed to read these posts this morning in a new light, and reframe the problem. The narrative of The Three Faces of Eve unravels a mystery. The film depicts a psychiatrist who attempts to understand and deal with two incomplete and inadequate personalities inside Eve. In one session, a third personality emerges, a relatively stable personality named Jane. The psychiatrist eventually prompts his patient to remember a traumatic event in Eve's childhood. Her grandmother had died when she was six, and according to family custom, relatives were supposed to kiss the dead person at the viewing, making it easier for them to let go. While Eve screams, her mother forces her to kiss the corpse. Apparently, Eve's terror led to the creation of different personalities.
I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to consider indoctrination into a cult as a low-energy trauma. And by no means do I wish to minimize the compounding of high-energy trauma some experienced from sexual molestation, intense psychological and physical abuse from cult-leaders, parents, etc..
I think human beings are capable of enduring very difficult situations, hardships, unpleasant conditions, etc.…. And something else I’ve observed on Grease Spot Café is that we are resilient too – that we are able to withstand a lot of hellish stuff and if given enough time – which varies for everyone – we can recover…survive…and hopefully thrive. My two-bit amateur psychology theory is that as followers of a harmful and abusive cult develop some coping mechanisms in our psyche…processes that help us manage the stress / trauma and optimistically diminish the intensity of the pain. Sometimes it’s easier to go along with the ritualized behavior – somewhat of a go-with-the-flow attitude - to accept a situation, rather than trying to alter or control it.
I’m not suggesting cult-followers develop multiple personalities. For our discussion I’m going with a simple definition:
In psychology, the notion of the self refers to a person’s experience as a single, unitary, autonomous being that is separate from others, experienced with continuity through time and place. The experience of the self includes consciousness of one’s physicality as well as one’s inner character and emotional life.
From: Self - IResearchNet
For extra credit you can check out the following hyperlinks
What Is the Self? | Psychology Today
The Self | Psychology Today
Self Concept - Simply Psychology
Self - Wikipedia
Self in Jungian psychology - Wikipedia
What Is a 'Self'? Here Are All the Possibilities | Live Science
~ ~ ~ ~
One of the reasons I study the Bible is for self-improvement to develop my knowledge / wisdom / character. The Bible isn’t my only resource for that – but so that I’m not going all over the map with the influence / inspiration from other books, films, TV, music, art, and even Grease Spot Café – I’m limiting my reference to mostly the Bible for this discussion.
Something the film The Three Faces of Eve did for me in light of these recent posts was get me to re-think a basic Christian concept of self-improvement – the struggle of the unregenerate-self versus the revitalized-self - - the old man versus the new man…For a Christian who gets suckered into a pseudo-Christian cult, there is a ‘third self’ that is put forth as the new man – the ideal you.
I believe wierwille / The Way International hijacked the abstract idea of the new man mentioned in the epistles of Paul. By taking advantage of a Christian’s desire to better themselves – in a bait-and-switch ploy, wierwille / TWI presented a submissive and compliant attitude as something to be admired and indicative of Christlike behavior. I think my use of the word ‘hijacked’ is appropriate because it is the unauthorized seizure of a soul’s journey - compelling one toward a different direction or destination – basically using the person for one's own purposes.
So, let’s look at the old man and the new man in the Bible…I’ve put certain words and phrases in a red font that are pertinent to our discussion – and we find that in this battle we are not going at it alone – we have the Holy Spirit’s help too!
~ ~ ~ ~
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin — 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6
~ ~ ~ ~
4 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 7
~ ~ ~ ~
8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
Romans 8
~ ~ ~ ~
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Romans 12
~ ~ ~ ~
So… summarizing my thoughts – as a Christian and survivor of a pseudo-Christian cult, i looked at 3 alternatives to create a plan for self-improvement. After which I will submit a redefinition of wierwille’s great principle – which I call the great unprincipled cult-leader.
1. the natural self. Our fallen human nature. The unregenerate person. That’s our unredeemed self. That’s us without any of the light and influence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Keep doing the same old thing. Enjoy the rut. Nothing like a bad habit to depend on for autopilot
2. the supernatural self. The ideal person – the “new” inner self – it’s new in terms of it didn’t exist until the light and influence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit came into your life. There may not be a Stephen-Spielberg-big-Hollywood-production in your life that stands out as when it all began.... thereafter at times we realize we need to get out of a rut…Often a way to break a bad habit is to start a good habit to take its place.
3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So, it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
John 3
Jesus was explaining that we cannot control the work of the Holy Spirit. He works in ways we cannot predict or understand.
you’re really the same person but now freed from the control of our fallen nature. There is now a spiritual battle both within and without – inner conflicts from worldly temptations that may still hold their appeal to the typical and personally unique pressures of daily living are unavoidable skirmishes. Philosophers and Diaspora Jewish intellectuals often advocated cultivating the mind, the ‘inner person’ or ‘inner being’, as over the passions of the body. Sometimes they used war imagery to depict this conflict – ‘waging war’, (Romans 7:23) Paul depicts a mind here that has been taken prisoner of war by the members of his body.
Our old self, the body of sin (Romans 6:6) are synonymous – and refers to sinful tendencies that are entangled with bodily weaknesses and pleasures. The old self is ‘dead’ – but this is figurative and not literal. Sin retains a foothold in our humanness. Conceptually it’s not that we have two competing natures – the old and the new. It’s like the supernatural self has been revitalized but we are now aware there’s a part of ourselves finds still shackled to an unredeemed physical body; the term ‘flesh’ is equivalent to the physical body, which can be an instrument for holiness (Romans 6: 19; 12:1 )
According to the Bible humankind was created to enjoy a beautiful planet, relationships without friction, and fellowship without distance. But something went wrong – and something is still wrong, and we know it, both within our world and within ourselves. Religions, philosophy, psychology, sociology, politics, and just about everyone else who doesn’t live under a rock is trying to resolve what went wrong. I for one like to check out all the options and viewpoints available instead of limiting myself to one problematic ideology like wierwille’s theology.
some ideas and notes are from:
MacArthur Study Bibles - Christianbook.com ,
NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, Hardcover: Craig Keener, John Walton: 9780310431589 - Christianbook.com
NIV, Life Application Study Bible, Third Edition, Leathersoft, Brown, Red Letter: Zondervan: 9780310452829: Amazon.com: Books
Inside Out: Crabb, Larry: 9781612913124: Amazon.com: Books
The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business: Duhigg, Charles: 8601406381322: Amazon.com: Books
3. the adaptive self - the ‘new you’ as specified by the cult-leader. This may be misrepresented as the supernatural self – the ideal self. How the cult-leader says you should think, and act becomes the new standard – which you are expected to adopt…I got into this on another thread - here and here - so you can check those out another time at your convenience...as it is, this post is too damn long
As an example of modeling counterfeit Christianity, under the pretext of prepping leaders for counseling wierwille would show the way corps some inappropriate video and then handle any shock and disgust of the students by saying stuff like renew your mind or the love of God doesn’t think evil.
~ ~ ~ ~
…and now for the finale…
The great unprincipled cult-leader:
The unscrupulous cult-leader who is deluded can only speak to others who are enamored with his greatness. Through indoctrination the unscrupulous cult-leader in effect teaches his or her ‘creation’ in you (the cultic mindset) – which is an alternate standard of how to think and act – and becomes manifested in the senses realm to the degree you become assimilated in the harmful and controlling cult.
...Instead of ending on a positive note I thought I’d end on a sour note
Well – that’s all for now, folks
Edited by T-Boneto un-bold the bolded - - I guess I didn't bold well :)
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Rocky
And as we ALL know, feelings ARE NO [a] guarantee (evidence) for truth. -- Victor Wierwille.
What is it called when one thing is articulated, but the opposite is practiced?
Btw, for any potentially strategic thinkers in the audience:
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Twinky
In all honesty, if the "great principle" causes such blindness in understanding the things of God; if it causes such stubbornness in recognising evil; if it causes one to think that Jesus Christ will return with the orange book in his hand
- well, all I can say is I really don't want it, I don't want any of that.
What works for me is praise and thanksgiving, acknowledging God in all my ways, and respecting (and to the best of my ability obeying) the things expected of me by God. Then I have peace, and, somehow, gentle knowledge manifests itself and I "just know" the right thing to do or say or understand.
Seems a lot simpler than tying oneself in knots understanding some "great principle" that nobody can agree on - and that God didn't think important enough to spell out in minute (or any) detail in his Owners Manual.
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waysider
Enlighten us, oh wise one.
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chockfull
And here is the fool’s ego coming out for another turn. To answer your question I have run far more Intermediate Classes than you will ever run and have run hundreds more Excellor sessions than you will ever in your life.
I’ve had plenty of people progress through both successfully and I can’t remember even one unsuccessful dropout.
But no don’t listen to me listen to the big Fathead Mike because he and his ego know how to adopt a parent - child tone while trolling.
The main goal was to perform on command immediately. That is the doctrinal error. Johnny Jump Up stand SIT and interpret.
In a true loving environment there is zero fear of “performance” because people only speak when they feel led to like a “season of prayer” and they can SIT or offer another common language spoken inspiration that could be interpretation or prophecy depending on timing and viewpoint.
VPWs clear butchery of Greek prepositions has a whole other look and feel all very controlled by the coordinator.
The true love is in correcting the doctrine and practice. It frees rather than binds.
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Rocky
[/snarc]
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OldSkool
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Rocky
I wonder if Mike has chosen to ignore me.
I wish him success... maybe not with his stated goals, but rather with what might be his actual heart's desires.
I think of Psalm 37
Trust in the Lord and do good;
dwell in the land and enjoy safe pasture.
4 Take delight in the Lord,
and he will give you the desires of your heart.
5 Commit your way to the Lord;
trust in him and he will do this:
6 He will make your righteous reward shine like the dawn,
your vindication like the noonday sun.
7 Be still before the Lord
and wait patiently for him;
What got me thinking about that? This YT video.
Then, like rivers of understanding running together in my mind, I looked up this book and immediately requested it (put it on hold) at my local public library.
THEN I considered how and why Mike is so apparently not successful in his state goals (getting GSC readers to believe him about Wierwille's ministry and writings.
Edited by RockyRobin Dreeke might have some insight on that issue. What do you think?
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Charity
https://thewayinternational.com/operating-the-gift-of-holy-spirit/
The following paragraph is from the above article:
"These four types of power all come together when we operate our gift of holy spirit. The potential power (dunamis) given to each born-again believer is exercised and put into operation by our freewill decision because we have the authority and right (exousia). God energizes (energeō) the power as we believe and decide to act, resulting in the manifestation of that power (kratos), power with an impact."
A verse is given for each Greek word except exousia. Written earlier in the article is, "Next, exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis." Instead of a verse, they go into the old "driving a car" example.
I found this curious, so I did a quick check on Bible Hub for the Greek word, and I didn't see a verse about exousia and the believer having it to "operate the spirit." It showed the following who have/had it: Jesus (both in the gospels and in the epistles), the god of this world, the apostles but only in the context of how they conducted themselves with the church and others but only in the earthly realm.
Since the statements above are used to support twi's GP, does anyone know of scriptural backup for this?
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Charity
Oh, forgot that twi will just use the "your spirit" theory to rationalize "exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis."
Again they prove deceitful in their handling of God's word by using the "bait and switch" con. They bait you by "namedroping" God (where He isn't) when they say "exousia is God-given" so you can "exercise the dunamis." THEN they switch it over in the GP to since it is your spirit, you actually control it.
In other words, you (NOT GOD) give yourself the right and privilege to control the spirit because, after all, it is your spirit.
Your spirit, your authority - it's all about you, you, you!
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Charity
I can see from your post how the "flowchart" you had previously shared (and I still agree with) does not convey the incredible interagency between God, the Son and the holy spirit as laid out in the epistles such as Galatians. I began reading Colossians today and I marvel at how God, Christ and the holy spirit worked together to reconcile us back to God and continue to work together to help us live out that reconciliation.
For example: Col 1:9b-13
We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives, 10 so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11 being strengthened with all power [via holy spirit] according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, 12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
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T-Bone
This has got to be one of the most glaringly obvious interpolations* made by wierwille in his egocentric* theology - it all revolves around him – he’s got holy spirit…he operates it…below I’m quoting from TWI’s website, and I rendered in red font the smoking gun:
I Corinthians 12:11:
But all these [nine manifestations of holy spirit] worketh [energeō, are energized by] that one and the selfsame Spirit [God], dividing to every man severally [distributing to every man his own] as he [the man] will.
Energeō is the verb form of energēma, the kinetic, energized power of God. It is dunamis in operation. The manifestations of holy spirit are energized by God as each believer wills, or maturely deliberates. We can see the nine manifestations of holy spirit listed in I Corinthians 12:8-10. These manifestations can be operated by every believer, and every manifestation of the gift of holy spirit is profitable. Each believer operates God’s power when they decide and believe to do so.
From: The Way International - Operating the Gift of Holy Spirit
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
Below I’ve copied and pasted I Corinthians 12:11 from other versions – these are from Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages – are very useful resource for parallel passages, lexicons, interlinear, commentaries - - and navigating the website is super easy! …anyway - note the same verse in other versions - and see that the translators correctly observe the context of the verse and entire chapter to indicate that it is the Holy Spirit who does the distributing:
New International Version
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
New Living Translation
It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.
New King James Version
But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
New American Standard Bible
But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
Amplified Bible
All these things [the gifts, the achievements, the abilities, the empowering] are brought about by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, distributing to each one individually just as He chooses.
NET Bible
It is one and the same Spirit, distributing as he decides to each person, who produces all these things.
Weymouth New Testament
But these results are all brought about by one and the same Spirit, who bestows His gifts upon each of us in accordance with His own will.
Contemporary English Version
But it is the Spirit who does all this and decides which gifts to give to each of us.
~ ~ ~ ~
The above translations challenge the egocentric* interpolations* of wierwille and The Way International; or rather wierwille and The Way International contradict the natural sense and context of I Corinthians 12:11 – because the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts and decides who gets what… read the context - you’ll notice it even shoots holes in wierwille’s attempt to produce a one-man-show promoting ‘each believer can operate all nine manifestations’ - observe verse 11 is nestled in the ideas of unity and diversity:
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
I Corinthians 12
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interpolation* = the insertion of something of a different nature into something else; a remark interjected in a conversation; in math, interpolation is at the root a simple mathematical concept. In short, interpolation is a process of determining the unknown values that lie in between the known data points. It is mostly used to predict the unknown values for any geographical related data points such as noise level, rainfall, elevation, and so on.
egocentric* = thinking only of oneself, without regard for the feelings or desires of others; self-centered; egocentrism refers to someone's inability to understand that another person's view or opinion may be different than their own; It refers to a limited worldview, with a person focusing only on his needs. An egocentric person may become obsessed with them. Egocentric people often show a lack of empathy for others. They cannot see things from a different point of view than their own. Another feature of this behavior is the ‘imaginary audience’.
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Bolshevik
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chockfull
Having done word studies on exousia in scripture I think the first place it shows up is when Jesus taught with authority not like the scribes.
I would exhort them to leave the idols in human and written form and get back to the true power of our Lord Jesus Christ - who wasn’t a fundamentalist scribe.
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chockfull
No but advanced human automation can be very entertaining
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Nathan_Jr
A link from your link -- https://samvak.tripod.com/journal75.html
On confabulation. Mike should sit at the feet of this article and get taught.
There is no cure nor treatment for Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). Nothing can be done. Nothing to cast out. Literally. Actually.
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T-Bone
good catch, Charity!
I believe the reason TWI doesn’t quote a verse to support the following statements of theirs is because there is no scriptural justification:
“…Next, exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis. It is like being given a driver’s license and the key to the car. As believers we have the authoritative power to operate God’s gift. We have the potential power and the authority, but it is up to us whether or not we operate that power…”
NO verse supports wierwille’s egocentric idea! Chalk it up to wierwille’s signature intuition – how the cult-leader feels it should be interpreted…outside of TWI-cult-followers wierwille’s signature intuition has NO AUTHORITY.
From the few references* I checked (see below) the Greek word “exousia” covers a lot of ground – to cite just a few usages – it’s used of the absolute authority and supremacy of Christ, the limited and specified authority Jesus gave to His disciples over unclean spirits, the organization of Satan and the rulers of darkness, government authority, and in the book of Revelation believers will be given the right to eat of the tree of life.
But I have NOT found a verse that supports the idea that:
“ exousia is the God-given right and privilege to exercise the dunamis” NOPE – wish I had the God-given right and privilege to exorcise the dumb-a$$ spirit that is so influential in the TWI-mindset.
“It is like being given a driver’s license and the key to the car” – NOPE! There is no Divine Department of Motor Vehicles nor is there a Divine Car Dealership…after taking PFAL or PFAL Today it’s like you’re given a student-driver-permit to run over Scripture…I still have mine from 1974 - - > Double O 6 (that’s nada, nada, the number for man
) license to regurgitate what the cult-leader taught me.
“As believers we have the authoritative power to operate God’s gift” – not exactly, Scripture says to use whatever gifts you have to serve others.
“We have the potential power and the authority” – get it straight – give credit where credit is due – to God be the glory! remember the flowchart: God the Father - - > Jesus Christ - - > The Holy Spirit - - > you.
“but it is up to us whether or not we operate that power” – that’s a whole lotta talk and nothing to show for it…oh yeah, some relevant thoughts: The Bible teaches the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts – the unity and diversity indicated in I Corinthians 12 means every believer does NOT get all nine. And those aren't the only gifts - there's more - but that's another post
.
So why is it at the end of a PFAL class all students are expected to speak in tongues? What are the chances that every student receives the gift of tongues? Why don’t the class coordinators go around the room and ask the Holy Spirit to indicate what student got what? One student over here is getting word of knowledge that wierwille plagiarized all the material in the class. Another student over there is discerning spirits that wierwille is lying through his teeth. The door to the classroom blows open and a $100 bill miraculously falls into the hands of another student - divine reimbursement for money poorly spent on the PFAL class . And one student is tearing up her syllabus – laughing with tears of joy as she shouts, “Thank you Jesus, my cognitive skills have been healed...what a bunch of bull$hit !!!!”
I think the analysis of wierwille’s great principle on this thread has brought to light several dubious ideas, Scripture twisting and logical fallacies – there’s probably more!
~ ~ ~ ~
references*
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume: Edited By: Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, Geoffrey W. Bromiley: 9780802824042 - Christianbook.com
Exousia - Wikipedia
What is the meaning of exousia in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
Expository Dictionary of Bible Words: Word Studies for Key English Bible Words Based on the Hebrew and Greek Texts: Renn, Stephen D.: 9781598565744: Amazon.com: Books
Authority - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (studybible.info)
Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: Mounce, William D.: 9780310248781: Amazon.com: Books
The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised: 1978 Edition: Moulton, Harold K.: 9780310202806: Amazon.com: Books
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Bolshevik
Vaknin uses the term "dead". The self being ossified. Growth cannot occur.
How to people have relationships of various kinds with these types? That's what's scary. It's all in your head.
Enter the robots.
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Mike
No, I have not ignored anyone, though a lot does slip by me just from the sheer volume of it all. I've been reading a lot of the archives and pondering things.
After 20 years of posting, my "stated goals" are going through an evolution. I see lots of change in the air.
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Bolshevik
New, Dynamic, goal posts.
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Charity
I haven't read your post yet, but I might have to throw that catch back into the lake. Matthew 10:11 says, "1Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness."
I'll post more later.
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T-Bone
Your catch is still good - that verse came up in several lexicons and on the website Got Questions org - and how most explain it is Jesus gave them measured authority as a divine authentication that the apostles were certified to continue Jesus’ mission.
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WordWolf
"Exousia" means "AUTHORITY", period. Only twi an ex-twi feel the need to add layers of complications and connections (like to "dunamis.") The concept of "authority" is not hard to grasp- which is probably why vpw had to add complicated stuff to it- to convince people to pay money for information on something that needed no explanation.
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Matthew 8:5-10 (KJV)
5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marveled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
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That man had supreme confidence in the AUTHORITY of Jesus to deliver that he was confident that- if Jesus pronounced the deliverance, it would happen regardless of distance and him seeing the result. The man understood how AUTHORITY worked- he gave orders, and they were followed. So, if Jesus gave the order for his servant to be healed, he was confident that the healing would happen due to Jesus' AUTHORITY to do so.
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