If you haven't already done this, or haven't done it recently, it would be worthwhile checking out EVERY scripture that Jesus quoted and referring back to the OT and reading the whole context surrounding the quote. Why did he say that thing at that time? To which people? What situation is being referenced in the OT, and how does that reflect on the situation that Jesus is addressing?
Certainly the whole context would have been part of the whole reference brought in with just a few words, to the hearers. Just as the saying "The word of God is the will of God" brings with it to Wayfers a whole raft of connotations, so what Jesus said would bring with it a whole raft of scriptural and rabbinical teachings of the time.
We're still responsible for our actions when drunk or high. Voluntarily attending an intense course and getting tranced by it would be the same?
Of course. Yes, we still have agency in such situation(s). Isn't that the essence of the dilemma of getting conned by a charismatic cult leader and the importance of actually learning how and why one got caught up with said cult? Then deciding to take steps to find ways out along with finding less cultish ways of getting our need for belonging met.
Of course. Yes, we still have agency in such situation(s). Isn't that the essence of the dilemma of getting conned by a charismatic cult leader and the importance of actually learning how and why one got caught up with said cult? Then deciding to take steps to find ways out along with finding less cultish ways of getting our need for belonging met.
Yes, that's why the cult leader being a void or black hole is important. Whatever good was perceived came from within the follower.
The great unprincipled cult-leader:The unscrupulous cult-leader who is deluded can only speak to others who are enamored with his greatness. Through indoctrination the unscrupulous cult-leader in effect teaches his or her ‘creation’ in you (the cultic mindset) – which is an alternate standard of how to think and act – and becomes manifested in the senses realm to the degree you become assimilated in the harmful and controlling cult.
The heart refers to the mind as the center of thinking and reason and includes emotions, the will and thus the whole being, affects speech and conduct…Jesus taught the same concept – and when a person has a defiled heart it’s expressed in both what the person says and does:
Hi T-Bone,
I know the practice of the “renewed mind” was seriously distorted in twi, but I wanted to bring it up since I recently saw a connection between the mind and the holy spirit while reading Ephesians.
Eph 1:17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people,
Eph 3:16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.
Usually when I think of being strong, I interpreted it as physical strength. However, Paul is connecting all of them together - strength, power, spirit, inner being and Christ dwelling in our hearts. Since each of them have to do with the mind (i.e., our cerebrum), it all comes back to the "renewed mind."
After the mind games played in twi (especially in the corps) and the absent Christ fiasco, what do you and others think and feel about the renewed mind doctrine?
Poker Face is my favorite, hands down! I like the song, which you wouldnt think I would if you knew me in person being a rather burly individual. But the work on the video edit took some skill and the comments....creepy guy, not gonna happen, and sassy...Im literally belly laughing...
I was in residence with dancing monkey boy and all I gotta say is this couldnt have happened to a better person. The guy had an ego the size of Texas and really thought he could dance with the stars. I think he basically learned to dance watching cheesy MTV type dance instructional videos. Back then he was a complete putz. Don't know about now, so hes likely grown up a bit.
I know the practice of the “renewed mind” was seriously distorted in twi, but I wanted to bring it up since I recently saw a connection between the mind and the holy spirit while reading Ephesians.
Eph 1:17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people,
Eph 3:16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.
Usually when I think of being strong, I interpreted it as physical strength. However, Paul is connecting all of them together - strength, power, spirit, inner being and Christ dwelling in our hearts. Since each of them have to do with the mind (i.e., our cerebrum), it all comes back to the "renewed mind."
After the mind games played in twi (especially in the corps) and the absent Christ fiasco, what do you and others think and feel about the renewed mind doctrine?
Hi Charity - here's my 2 cents...
First off let me say what the renewed mind is NOT:
When I was in the Family Corps at the Rome City Campus wierwille showed us a pornographic video of women having sex with a dog. Bear in mind this was the Family corps, so besides adults there were teens present! In the set up beforehand, wierwille’s preliminary remarks foisted this $hit on us under the pretext of training us to become competent counselors in a supposedly Christian ministry - so that when people come to you with their problems you shouldn’t be shocked by anything.
As a group I think most of us were shocked, unnerved and flustered by wierwille’s flagrant disregard for anyone’s feelings, social mores or the inappropriateness of what he did. And to add insult to injury, after the video was over – wierwille sat there all smug in a comfortable chair drinking his Drambuie, looks over the stunned audience and casually says, “I’ve so renewed my mind that stuff like this doesn’t bother me.” ...wierwille used “renew your mind” like a trump card to cause feelings of guilt in those who were offended by his behavior – like they’re the ones with a problem and are being unchristian-like.
By the way, it’s not like wierwille showing this porn video to our Family Corps was an isolated incident. Over the years he had shown it to many other Way Corps during their in-residence training – as well as taking that as the opportune time to launch into other salacious and titillating topics (as he did with our Family Corps that night).
Soooooooo, that’s NOT the renewed mind! That’s a perverted harmful and controlling cult-leader’s method of indoctrination – desensitize and move boundaries.
~ ~ ~ ~
Now look at Romans 12: 1 & 2
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will…Romans 12 NIV - A Living Sacrifice - Bible Gateway
The Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible notes of Romans 12:1,2that Paul’s wording of “living sacrifice” is figurative and would have beenrelevant to those familiar with Old Testament like in Psalms 51:17 and Proverbs 21:3 as an expression of devotion to God . Because most animal sacrifices were slaughtered, Paul’s addition of “living” might strike hearers as a oxymoron, while stretching the image to cover continued devotion.
End of referencing Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible
~ ~ ~ ~
There are several dramatic differences from wierwille’s teaching / modeling the renewed mind and what is obvious in the biblical text:
wierwille: I can conduct myself toward others anyway I full well please.
Romans 12:1: pledge that you will conduct yourself toward others in a way that honors God - which will please Him.
wierwille: I speak in tongues – that is true worship.
Romans 12:1: honoring God in everything you do is true and proper worship.
wierwille: enjoy all the pleasures and evils of this world by not giving it a second thought.
Romans 12:2: do not adapt to this world.
wierwille: change the way you think about your bad behavior.
Romans 12:2: renovate your mind – by cleansing and repairing it. ( the how-to I leave up to a Christian’s study and application of the Bible working in tandem with The Holy Spirit).
wierwille: so you can deceive yourself, and think you are doing God a favor.
Romans 12:2: walk the talk to demonstrate to yourself what is right…this alludes to Scripture being self-authenticating – see Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own…John 7:17
~ ~ ~ ~
Well, that’s my 2 cents anyway – I’ll shut up and let others chime in
Edited by T-Bone Typos be transformed by a renewed editing
Oops - I obviously wasn't paying attention. I watched 20 seconds of the second video and saw it was the same dreaded song with different dancers. Without checking the titles, I ignored the other three because the same creepy dude was front and center. Anyway, I realized my mistake after reading OldSkool's post. Poker Face has the best music - even made the dancing a bit more tolerable.
Oops - I obviously wasn't paying attention. I watched 20 seconds of the second video and saw it was the same dreaded song with different dancers. Without checking the titles, I ignored the other three because the same creepy dude was front and center. Anyway, I realized my mistake after reading OldSkool's post. Poker Face has the best music - even made the dancing a bit more tolerable.
First off let me say what the renewed mind is NOT:
When I was in the Family Corps at the Rome City Campus wierwille showed us a pornographic video of women having sex with a dog. Bear in mind this was the Family corps, so besides adults there were teens present! In the set up beforehand, wierwille’s preliminary remarks foisted this $hit on us under the pretext of training us to become competent counselors in a supposedly Christian ministry - so that when people come to you with their problems you shouldn’t be shocked by anything.
As a group I think most of us were shocked, unnerved and flustered by wierwille’s flagrant disregard for anyone’s feelings, social mores or the inappropriateness of what he did. And to add insult to injury, after the video was over – wierwille sat there all smug in a comfortable chair drinking his Drambuie, looks over the stunned audience and casually says, “I’ve so renewed my mind that stuff like this doesn’t bother me.” ...wierwille used “renew your mind” like a trump card to cause feelings of guilt in those who were offended by his behavior – like they’re the ones with a problem and are being unchristian-like.
By the way, it’s not like wierwille showing this porn video to our Family Corps was an isolated incident. Over the years he had shown it to many other Way Corps during their in-residence training – as well as taking that as the opportune time to launch into other salacious and titillating topics (as he did with our Family Corps that night).
Soooooooo, that’s NOT the renewed mind! That’s a perverted harmful and controlling cult-leader’s method of indoctrination – desensitize and move boundaries.
~ ~ ~ ~
Now look at Romans 12: 1 & 2
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will…Romans 12 NIV - A Living Sacrifice - Bible Gateway
The Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible notes of Romans 12:1,2that Paul’s wording of “living sacrifice” is figurative and would have beenrelevant to those familiar with Old Testament like in Psalms 51:17 and Proverbs 21:3 as an expression of devotion to God . Because most animal sacrifices were slaughtered, Paul’s addition of “living” might strike hearers as a oxymoron, while stretching the image to cover continued devotion.
End of referencing Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible
~ ~ ~ ~
There are several dramatic differences from wierwille’s teaching / modeling the renewed mind and what is obvious in the biblical text:
wierwille: I can conduct myself toward others anyway I want to.
Romans 12:1: pledge that you will conduct yourself toward others in a way that honors God.
wierwille: I speak in tongues – that is true worship.
Romans 12:1: honoring God in everything you do is true and proper worship.
wierwille: enjoy all the pleasures and evils of this world by not giving it a second thought.
Romans 12:2: do not adapt to this world.
wierwille: change the way you think about your bad behavior.
Romans 12:2: renovate your mind – by cleansing and repairing it.
wierwille: so you can deceive yourself, and think you are doing God a favor.
Romans 12:2: walk the talk to demonstrate to yourself what is right…this alludes to Scripture being self-authenticating – see Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own…John 7:17
~ ~ ~ ~
Well, that’s my 2 cents anyway – I’ll shut up and let others chime in
I'll see your 2 cents and raise you 2 more.
wierwille:Eph 4:17-19 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.
__________________________________
Eph 3:16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.
Paul writes in vs. 16, “in your inner being” which refers to our minds. Our minds are where God strengthens us with His power through his holy spirit. In vs. 17, it says God’s reason for strengthening our minds is so that Christ may dwell in our minds (our “hearts”) through faith.
What I remember about "the renewed mind" was that it meant putting the word in our minds. Do you think Paul's prayer in these 2 verses ups the ante to say there's more to it? Like, it's just not what we do but how He then adds to it.
Here's another verse.
Eph 1:17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.18I pray that the eyes of your heart(mind) may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people,
wierwille:Eph 4:17-19 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.
__________________________________
Eph 3:16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.
Paul writes in vs. 16, “in your inner being” which refers to our minds. Our minds are where God strengthens us with His power through his holy spirit. In vs. 17, it says God’s reason for strengthening our minds is so that Christ may dwell in our minds (our “hearts”) through faith.
What I remember about "the renewed mind" was that it meant putting the word in our minds. Do you think Paul's prayer in these 2 verses ups the ante to say there's more to it? Like, it's just not what we do but how He then adds to it.
Here's another verse.
Eph 1:17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.18I pray that the eyes of your heart(mind) may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people,
Hi Charity - Yes - there’s certainly more to it. You made me think of the great quadruple principle: The Father > the Son > the Holy Spirit > you.
Another thing is it speaks to correct the wrong thinking of wierwille’s “ the Word takes the place of the absent Christ “ which is an impractical theory. Christ dwelling in our hearts suggests the very presence of our Lord EVEN IN OUR THINKING! Why is that important? Thinking that honors our Lord will lead to Christ-honoring behavior.
I remember a quote - not sure where it’s from - but anyway it goes something like this …a 1 and a 2 and a 1,2,3:
character is a composite of our habits
Sow a thought reap an action
Sow an action reap a habit
Sow a habit reap a character
Sow a character reap a destiny
I think the word “destiny” has a lot of wiggle room. A simple dict. def. says destiny is the hidden power believed to control what will happen in the future…rather than “magical thinking” I believe it’s about self-determination - the process by which a person controls their own life. The “hidden power” is not the law of believing but the invisible ‘driver’ in our minds…which makes me ask the question “who is in the driver’s seat of my life’s journey?”
Driving is a pretty good metaphor. What is the destination? Do you use maps, GPS, compass, occasionally ask strangers for directions?
While in TWI - even though I wasn’t aware of it - wierwille ideology more or less set the destination and route to take - take PFAL…run a twig…go WOW…go corps…so wierwille ideology was the map, the navigator and often backseat driver since TWI likes to micromanage.
One of the most common themes in the Bible is that of a journey. Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet…I am the way, the truth, the life…Hebrews 11 mentions those on life’s journey admitted they were foreigners and strangers on earth - longing for a heavenly country…Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight” (Proverbs 3:5-6).
Self-determination just means you are in the driver’s seat. Now what is the destination? That depends on where you are now. Ecclesiastes challenges me to look at life as more than just the here and now. And you’d think the Bible would give us more info on the future eternal state of everything - not really - but it does have a lot of directives on HOW to journey in the here and now…love your neighbor as yourself…treat others like you would like to be treated…let Christ dwell in your heart.
Christ dwelling in our hearts suggests the very presence of our Lord EVEN IN OUR THINKING! Why is that important? Thinking that honors our Lord will lead to Christ-honoring behavior. ... I remember a quote - not sure where it’s from [fromRalph Waldo Emerson] - but anyway it goes something like this …a 1 and a 2 and a 1,2,3:
CHARACTER IS A COMPOSITE OF OUR HABITS
Sow a thought reap an action
Sow an action reap a habit
Sow a habit reap a character
Sow a character reap a destiny
I think the word “destiny” has a lot of wiggle room. A simple dict. def. says destiny is the hidden power believed to control what will happen in the future…rather than “magical thinking” I believe it’s about self-determination - the process by which a person controls their own life. The “hidden power” is not the law of believing but the invisible ‘driver’ in our minds…which makes me ask the question “who is in the driver’s seat of my life’s journey?”
Driving is a pretty good metaphor. What is the destination?
YES! "Who is driving the bus?" is the way I put it in my Minimalistic Free Will theory.
I find this post of yours to be very helpful, both in my practical everyday life and in my writing on free will.
T-Bone, what you posted here (which I slightly highlighted with color above) was absolutely beautiful!
I want to thank you and Ralph Waldo Emerson for those EXTREMELY PRACTICAL words above.
The way you and he put it was PERFECT for my book on minFW. I will be inserting that text (with a citation) into my text in one way or another.
You and Emerson neatly summed up my theory in those few words.
Well, so much for my I-search skills.
In trying to find Emerson's entire text, Google now tells tells me there are two more authors attributed to the same lines, above.
One is Alistair Begg and the other is Stephen R. Covey.
Definitely not these two, as their lifetimes are more recent. It's also been attributed to William Thackery, which makes more sense.
(Not that it makes much difference in this context.)
Being occultic in nature I doubt the concepts will trace to one source of origin, however, I feel Cyrus Scofield is a key character in propagation through the notes in his study bible.
Being occultic in nature I doubt the concepts will trace to one source of origin, however, I feel Cyrus Scofield is a key character in propagation through the notes in his study bible.
Excuse me, this was in relation to word of faith...sorry bout that.
YES! "Who is driving the bus?" is the way I put it in my Minimalistic Free Will theory.
I find this post of yours to be very helpful, both in my practical everyday life and in my writing on free will.
T-Bone, what you posted here (which I slightly highlighted with color above) was absolutely beautiful!
I want to thank you and Ralph Waldo Emerson for those EXTREMELY PRACTICAL words above.
The way you and he put it was PERFECT for my book on minFW. I will be inserting that text (with a citation) into my text in one way or another.
You and Emerson neatly summed up my theory in those few words.
55 minutes ago, Mike said:
Well, so much for my I-search skills.
In trying to find Emerson's entire text, Google now tells tells me there are two more authors attributed to the same lines, above.
One is Alistair Begg and the other is Stephen R. Covey.
27 minutes ago, waysider said:
Definitely not these two, as their lifetimes are more recent. It's also been attributed to William Thackery, which makes more sense.
(Not that it makes much difference in this context.)
24 minutes ago, OldSkool said:
Being occultic in nature I doubt the concepts will trace to one source of origin, however, I feel Cyrus Scofield is a key character in propagation through the notes in his study bible.
7 habits of highly successful people is one of my favorite books - hadn't read it in a while - so I lean toward Covey - for at least part of the quote
Definitely not these two, as their lifetimes are more recent. It's also been attributed to William Thackery, which makes more sense.
(Not that it makes much difference in this context.)
There is another version of "Sow a..." which adds an extra line.
“Watch your thoughts, they become your words; watch your words, they become your actions; watch your actions, they become your habits; watch your habits, they become your character; watch your character, it becomes your destiny.” ― supposedly by Lao Tzu
Another thing is it speaks to correct the wrong thinking of wierwille’s “ the Word takes the place of the absent Christ “ which is an impractical theory. Christ dwelling in our hearts suggests the very presence of our Lord EVEN IN OUR THINKING! Why is that important? Thinking that honors our Lord will lead to Christ-honoring behavior.
One of the most common themes in the Bible is that of a journey. Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet…I am the way, the truth, the life…Hebrews 11 mentions those on life’s journey admitted they were foreigners and strangers on earth - longing for a heavenly country…Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight” (Proverbs 3:5-6).
Self-determination just means you are in the driver’s seat. Now what is the destination? That depends on where you are now. Ecclesiastes challenges me to look at life as more than just the here and now. And you’d think the Bible would give us more info on the future eternal state of everything - not really - but it does have a lot of directives on HOW to journey in the here and now…love your neighbor as yourself…treat others like you would like to be treated…let Christ dwell in your heart.
First of all, thanks T-Bone for your reply - it provides a lot of food for thought.
I like how you pointed out from scripture the theme that we are on a journey. As you mentioned, It’s great to have the freedom to choose your own destination and also to have the “HOW to” directions to keep us out of the ruts. There's so much you can glean from this analogy. I’ll have to keep an eye out for more verses like these.
The thing that stood out the most to me in Ephesians 3 is what did Paul mean when he wrote that God will strengthen and empower our minds through His spirit. I think about the kind of mind Paul must have had to not only endure all the persecution but also to carry out the incredible ministry God gave to him.
Here and in Eph 1:17-19, Paul is praying for God to give this power, strength, wisdom, understanding etc. to the believers, so I wonder where prayer fits in with all this. It's a lot to get into especially when vp basically boils it all down to applying the great principle. All I know is that my mind can use some strengthening from God so it looks like this is my chosen journey for now.
Eph 3:16–19 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power(enough strength), together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. (NIV)
First of all, thanks T-Bone for your reply - it provides a lot of food for thought.
I like how you pointed out from scripture the theme that we are on a journey. As you mentioned, It’s great to have the freedom to choose your own destination and also to have the “HOW to” directions to keep us out of the ruts. There's so much you can glean from this analogy. I’ll have to keep an eye out for more verses like these.
The thing that stood out the most to me in Ephesians 3 is what did Paul mean when he wrote that God will strengthen and empower our minds through His spirit. I think about the kind of mind Paul must have had to not only endure all the persecution but also to carry out the incredible ministry God gave to him.
Here and in Eph 1:17-19, Paul is praying for God to give this power, strength, wisdom, understanding etc. to the believers, so I wonder where prayer fits in with all this. It's a lot to get into especially when vp basically boils it all down to applying the great principle. All I know is that my mind can use some strengthening from God so it looks like this is my chosen journey for now.
Eph 3:16–19 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power(enough strength), together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. (NIV)
I picked up on the journey idea from a few sources: my early years on Grease Spot - I think Belle had a thread about it; "the purpose driven life" by R Warren - he mentions 3 metaphors of life in the Bible: life is a journey, a test, an assignment (I think that's how it goes); and lastly, my curiosity about philosophy and psychology both are into exploring which to me means going on a journey
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Charity
Reading twi's article both was emotionally and physically sickening. It so reinforced the doctrinal and practical errors that robbed believers of having a personal relationship with God and Jesus Chr
Bolshevik
Rocky
Who among you (or us) might be strategic thinkers? Was Victor Wierwille a strategic thinker? (not necessarily a rhetorical question) Is Mike a strategic thinker? (rhetorical questi
Twinky
If you haven't already done this, or haven't done it recently, it would be worthwhile checking out EVERY scripture that Jesus quoted and referring back to the OT and reading the whole context surrounding the quote. Why did he say that thing at that time? To which people? What situation is being referenced in the OT, and how does that reflect on the situation that Jesus is addressing?
Certainly the whole context would have been part of the whole reference brought in with just a few words, to the hearers. Just as the saying "The word of God is the will of God" brings with it to Wayfers a whole raft of connotations, so what Jesus said would bring with it a whole raft of scriptural and rabbinical teachings of the time.
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Rocky
Of course. Yes, we still have agency in such situation(s). Isn't that the essence of the dilemma of getting conned by a charismatic cult leader and the importance of actually learning how and why one got caught up with said cult? Then deciding to take steps to find ways out along with finding less cultish ways of getting our need for belonging met.
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Bolshevik
Yes, that's why the cult leader being a void or black hole is important. Whatever good was perceived came from within the follower.
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Charity
Hi T-Bone,
I know the practice of the “renewed mind” was seriously distorted in twi, but I wanted to bring it up since I recently saw a connection between the mind and the holy spirit while reading Ephesians.
Eph 1:17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people,
Eph 3:16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.
Usually when I think of being strong, I interpreted it as physical strength. However, Paul is connecting all of them together - strength, power, spirit, inner being and Christ dwelling in our hearts. Since each of them have to do with the mind (i.e., our cerebrum), it all comes back to the "renewed mind."
After the mind games played in twi (especially in the corps) and the absent Christ fiasco, what do you and others think and feel about the renewed mind doctrine?
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chockfull
The renewed mind is still the key.
Widely imitated, never duplicated.
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Charity
Yeah, that kind of makes me run out the door and never want to hear those words again.
Not the strength and power I was picturing in my mind.
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OldSkool
Poker Face is my favorite, hands down! I like the song, which you wouldnt think I would if you knew me in person being a rather burly individual. But the work on the video edit took some skill and the comments....creepy guy, not gonna happen, and sassy...Im literally belly laughing...
I was in residence with dancing monkey boy and all I gotta say is this couldnt have happened to a better person. The guy had an ego the size of Texas and really thought he could dance with the stars. I think he basically learned to dance watching cheesy MTV type dance instructional videos. Back then he was a complete putz. Don't know about now, so hes likely grown up a bit.
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Rocky
Who is Samuel Gray Anderson?
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T-Bone
Hi Charity - here's my 2 cents...
First off let me say what the renewed mind is NOT:
When I was in the Family Corps at the Rome City Campus wierwille showed us a pornographic video of women having sex with a dog. Bear in mind this was the Family corps, so besides adults there were teens present! In the set up beforehand, wierwille’s preliminary remarks foisted this $hit on us under the pretext of training us to become competent counselors in a supposedly Christian ministry - so that when people come to you with their problems you shouldn’t be shocked by anything.
As a group I think most of us were shocked, unnerved and flustered by wierwille’s flagrant disregard for anyone’s feelings, social mores or the inappropriateness of what he did. And to add insult to injury, after the video was over – wierwille sat there all smug in a comfortable chair drinking his Drambuie, looks over the stunned audience and casually says, “I’ve so renewed my mind that stuff like this doesn’t bother me.” ...wierwille used “renew your mind” like a trump card to cause feelings of guilt in those who were offended by his behavior – like they’re the ones with a problem and are being unchristian-like.
By the way, it’s not like wierwille showing this porn video to our Family Corps was an isolated incident. Over the years he had shown it to many other Way Corps during their in-residence training – as well as taking that as the opportune time to launch into other salacious and titillating topics (as he did with our Family Corps that night).
Soooooooo, that’s NOT the renewed mind! That’s a perverted harmful and controlling cult-leader’s method of indoctrination – desensitize and move boundaries.
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Now look at Romans 12: 1 & 2
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will… Romans 12 NIV - A Living Sacrifice - Bible Gateway
The Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible notes of Romans 12:1,2 that Paul’s wording of “living sacrifice” is figurative and would have been relevant to those familiar with Old Testament like in Psalms 51:17 and Proverbs 21:3 as an expression of devotion to God . Because most animal sacrifices were slaughtered, Paul’s addition of “living” might strike hearers as a oxymoron, while stretching the image to cover continued devotion.
End of referencing Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible
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There are several dramatic differences from wierwille’s teaching / modeling the renewed mind and what is obvious in the biblical text:
wierwille: I can conduct myself toward others anyway I full well please.
Romans 12:1: pledge that you will conduct yourself toward others in a way that honors God - which will please Him.
wierwille: I speak in tongues – that is true worship.
Romans 12:1: honoring God in everything you do is true and proper worship.
wierwille: enjoy all the pleasures and evils of this world by not giving it a second thought.
Romans 12:2: do not adapt to this world.
wierwille: change the way you think about your bad behavior.
Romans 12:2: renovate your mind – by cleansing and repairing it. ( the how-to I leave up to a Christian’s study and application of the Bible working in tandem with The Holy Spirit).
wierwille: so you can deceive yourself, and think you are doing God a favor.
Romans 12:2: walk the talk to demonstrate to yourself what is right…this alludes to Scripture being self-authenticating – see Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own…John 7:17
~ ~ ~ ~
Well, that’s my 2 cents anyway – I’ll shut up and let others chime in
Edited by T-BoneTypos be transformed by a renewed editing
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Charity
Oops - I obviously wasn't paying attention. I watched 20 seconds of the second video and saw it was the same dreaded song with different dancers. Without checking the titles, I ignored the other three because the same creepy dude was front and center. Anyway, I realized my mistake after reading OldSkool's post. Poker Face has the best music - even made the dancing a bit more tolerable.
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OldSkool
You mean reading the same thing over and over again still says the same thing? Whoda thunk!
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chockfull
Here’s another mashup version
Aaand one more
Can’t leave out Ye!
I mean it’s like re-search
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Charity
I'll see your 2 cents and raise you 2 more.
wierwille: Eph 4:17-19 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.
__________________________________
Eph 3:16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.
Paul writes in vs. 16, “in your inner being” which refers to our minds. Our minds are where God strengthens us with His power through his holy spirit. In vs. 17, it says God’s reason for strengthening our minds is so that Christ may dwell in our minds (our “hearts”) through faith.
What I remember about "the renewed mind" was that it meant putting the word in our minds. Do you think Paul's prayer in these 2 verses ups the ante
to say there's more to it? Like, it's just not what we do but how He then adds to it.
Here's another verse.
Eph 1:17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart (mind) may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people,
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Charity
Kayne West makes my point for me - dancing is a lot cooler without a toothy grin on your face.
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T-Bone
Hi Charity - Yes - there’s certainly more to it. You made me think of the great quadruple principle: The Father > the Son > the Holy Spirit > you.
Another thing is it speaks to correct the wrong thinking of wierwille’s “ the Word takes the place of the absent Christ “ which is an impractical theory. Christ dwelling in our hearts suggests the very presence of our Lord EVEN IN OUR THINKING! Why is that important? Thinking that honors our Lord will lead to Christ-honoring behavior.
I remember a quote - not sure where it’s from - but anyway it goes something like this …a 1 and a 2 and a 1,2,3:
character is a composite of our habits
Sow a thought reap an action
Sow an action reap a habit
Sow a habit reap a character
Sow a character reap a destiny
I think the word “destiny” has a lot of wiggle room. A simple dict. def. says destiny is the hidden power believed to control what will happen in the future…rather than “magical thinking” I believe it’s about self-determination - the process by which a person controls their own life. The “hidden power” is not the law of believing but the invisible ‘driver’ in our minds…which makes me ask the question “who is in the driver’s seat of my life’s journey?”
Driving is a pretty good metaphor. What is the destination? Do you use maps, GPS, compass, occasionally ask strangers for directions?
While in TWI - even though I wasn’t aware of it - wierwille ideology more or less set the destination and route to take - take PFAL…run a twig…go WOW…go corps…so wierwille ideology was the map, the navigator and often backseat driver since TWI likes to micromanage.
One of the most common themes in the Bible is that of a journey. Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet…I am the way, the truth, the life…Hebrews 11 mentions those on life’s journey admitted they were foreigners and strangers on earth - longing for a heavenly country…Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight” (Proverbs 3:5-6).
Self-determination just means you are in the driver’s seat. Now what is the destination? That depends on where you are now. Ecclesiastes challenges me to look at life as more than just the here and now. And you’d think the Bible would give us more info on the future eternal state of everything - not really - but it does have a lot of directives on HOW to journey in the here and now…love your neighbor as yourself…treat others like you would like to be treated…let Christ dwell in your heart.
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Mike
YES! "Who is driving the bus?" is the way I put it in my Minimalistic Free Will theory.
I find this post of yours to be very helpful, both in my practical everyday life and in my writing on free will.
T-Bone, what you posted here (which I slightly highlighted with color above) was absolutely beautiful!
I want to thank you and Ralph Waldo Emerson for those EXTREMELY PRACTICAL words above.
The way you and he put it was PERFECT for my book on minFW. I will be inserting that text (with a citation) into my text in one way or another.
You and Emerson neatly summed up my theory in those few words.
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Mike
Well, so much for my I-search skills.
In trying to find Emerson's entire text, Google now tells tells me there are two more authors attributed to the same lines, above.
One is Alistair Begg and the other is Stephen R. Covey.
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waysider
Definitely not these two, as their lifetimes are more recent. It's also been attributed to William Thackery, which makes more sense.
(Not that it makes much difference in this context.)
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OldSkool
Being occultic in nature I doubt the concepts will trace to one source of origin, however, I feel Cyrus Scofield is a key character in propagation through the notes in his study bible.
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OldSkool
Excuse me, this was in relation to word of faith...sorry bout that.
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T-Bone
7 habits of highly successful people is one of my favorite books - hadn't read it in a while - so I lean toward Covey - for at least part of the quote
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Charity
There is another version of "Sow a..." which adds an extra line.
“Watch your thoughts, they become your words; watch your words, they become your actions; watch your actions, they become your habits; watch your habits, they become your character; watch your character, it becomes your destiny.” ― supposedly by Lao Tzu
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Charity
First of all, thanks T-Bone for your reply - it provides a lot of food for thought.
I like how you pointed out from scripture the theme that we are on a journey. As you mentioned, It’s great to have the freedom to choose your own destination and also to have the “HOW to” directions to keep us out of the ruts. There's so much you can glean from this analogy. I’ll have to keep an eye out for more verses like these.
The thing that stood out the most to me in Ephesians 3 is what did Paul mean when he wrote that God will strengthen and empower our minds through His spirit. I think about the kind of mind Paul must have had to not only endure all the persecution but also to carry out the incredible ministry God gave to him.
Here and in Eph 1:17-19, Paul is praying for God to give this power, strength, wisdom, understanding etc. to the believers, so I wonder where prayer fits in with all this. It's a lot to get into especially when vp basically boils it all down to applying the great principle. All I know is that my mind can use some strengthening from God so it looks like this is my chosen journey for now.
Eph 3:16–19 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power(enough strength), together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. (NIV)
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T-Bone
I picked up on the journey idea from a few sources: my early years on Grease Spot - I think Belle had a thread about it; "the purpose driven life" by R Warren - he mentions 3 metaphors of life in the Bible: life is a journey, a test, an assignment (I think that's how it goes); and lastly, my curiosity about philosophy and psychology both are into exploring which to me means going on a journey
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