Ha! Some see a painting . . . . Perverts can only see that which they are.
It's the Great Principle (GP)
Yeah that nasty old snake that seduced the wifey. He saw too much of himself in Genesis and not enough genuine research. Of course the paradigm he followed for “re-search” was pretty much non accredited story making and stealing so “you can’t go beyond what you are taught”.
Even after being on GSC for months, I am still shocked, deeply saddened and angry by the continued deception twi uses when teaching on scriptures concerning Jesus. The words in purple below are taken from twi's article on the Great Principle (GP), the website for which is shown on page 1 of this thread. (the strikethroughs are mine)
Referring to the gift of holy spirit, John 16:13 says, “…for he [it] shall not speak of himself [itself]; but whatsoever he [it] shall hear, that shall he [it] speak….” This implies that your spirit, the gift, hears and learns from God and obeys what He tells it to say.
Nowhere in this verse does it say the spirit of truth learns from God!
We can see this again in verse 15 - no you do not! Verse 15 tells you exactly who is giving the words to the spirit of truth.
Jesus Christ says, “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he [it, the gift of holy spirit]shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” This is the first part of our basic principle—God, Who is Spirit, teaches your spirit.
This verse does not say “God…teaches…!” Jesus says that all the Father has is his (Jesus’), then he says the spirit of truth shall take of mine (Jesus’) and shall shew it unto you – the Spirit of truth takes from Jesus! Jesus just got the ax (discharged, fired, expelled, rejected) deliberately by twi!
The next verse – which they left out in their article – confirms verse 13.
14 He will glorify me (Jesus) because it is from me (Jesus) that he will receive what he will make known to you.
Even after being on GSC for months, I am still shocked, deeply saddened and angry by the continued deception twi uses when teaching on scriptures concerning Jesus. The words in purple below are taken from twi's article on the Great Principle (GP), the website for which is shown on page 1 of this thread. (the strikethroughs are mine)
Referring to the gift of holy spirit, John 16:13 says, “…for he [it] shall not speak of himself [itself]; but whatsoever he [it] shall hear, that shall he [it] speak….” This implies that your spirit, the gift, hears and learns from God and obeys what He tells it to say.
Nowhere in this verse does it say the spirit of truth learns from God!
We can see this again in verse 15 - no you do not! Verse 15 tells you exactly who is giving the words to the spirit of truth.
Jesus Christ says, “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he [it, the gift of holy spirit]shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” This is the first part of our basic principle—God, Who is Spirit, teaches your spirit.
This verse does not say “God…teaches…!” Jesus says that all the Father has is his (Jesus’), then he says the spirit of truth shall take of mine (Jesus’) and shall shew it unto you – the Spirit of truth takes from Jesus! Jesus just got the ax (discharged, fired, expelled, rejected) deliberately by twi!
The next verse – which they left out in their article – confirms verse 13.
14 He will glorify me (Jesus) because it is from me (Jesus) that he will receive what he will make known to you.
So much for twi's rightly dividing of God's word.
Nice work Charity.
SMH at these fundamentalists who say God has a reason for everything He says, where,why,when,to whom out of one side of their mouth then use “implies” in a rich creative sense of interpretation injecting things into the text that aren’t there and removing other things that are there.
I would say they are fundamentally confused at what they are pumping themselves up to be experts in.
Even after being on GSC for months, I am still shocked, deeply saddened and angry by the continued deception twi uses when teaching on scriptures concerning Jesus. The words in purple below are taken from twi's article on the Great Principle (GP), the website for which is shown on page 1 of this thread. (the strikethroughs are mine)
Referring to the gift of holy spirit, John 16:13 says, “…for he [it] shall not speak of himself [itself]; but whatsoever he [it] shall hear, that shall he [it] speak….” This implies that your spirit, the gift, hears and learns from God and obeys what He tells it to say.
Nowhere in this verse does it say the spirit of truth learns from God!
We can see this again in verse 15 - no you do not! Verse 15 tells you exactly who is giving the words to the spirit of truth.
Jesus Christ says, “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he [it, the gift of holy spirit]shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” This is the first part of our basic principle—God, Who is Spirit, teaches your spirit.
This verse does not say “God…teaches…!” Jesus says that all the Father has is his (Jesus’), then he says the spirit of truth shall take of mine (Jesus’) and shall shew it unto you – the Spirit of truth takes from Jesus! Jesus just got the ax (discharged, fired, expelled, rejected) deliberately by twi!
The next verse – which they left out in their article – confirms verse 13.
14 He will glorify me (Jesus) because it is from me (Jesus) that he will receive what he will make known to you.
So much for twi's rightly dividing of God's word.
I'm considering that holy spirit as given on pentecost is not only a down payment for our redemption but also is used by Christ as the head of the body...why would God need it? I dunno...just a thought...I could be foot backwards wrong.
SMH at these fundamentalists who say God has a reason for everything He says, where,why,when,to whom out of one side of their mouth then use “implies” in a rich creative sense of interpretation injecting things into the text that aren’t there and removing other things that are there.
I would say they are fundamentally confused at what they are pumping themselves up to be experts in.
Google definition of imply: strongly suggest the truth or existence of (something not expressly stated).
Why do they have to imply anything when verses 14 and 15 expressly state the truth. And they do more than just imply when the article later declares what the GP is:
The great principle we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out.
I'm considering that holy spirit as given on pentecost is not only a down payment for our redemption but also is used by Christ as the head of the body...why would God need it? I dunno...just a thought...I could be foot backwards wrong.
Exactly and why would God even need toteach, or the spirit of truth need to learn, as stated in the twi's GP while the verses say that the spirit will hear, will take [2x])?
Google's definition of "teach" is to show or explain to (someone) how to do something so what's their sick reason for using the word teach? Maybe they just wanted it to flow with the next part of their sick GP that says "Your spirit teaches your mind." (I wish there was a "vomit" emoji.)
The unsettling part of this is that like most people in twi now, I used to believe the GP when I was in twi. Never questioned it once - just complete ignorance on my part that it were teachings like this that were behind the absent Christ in my life, and I wasn't even aware that Christ was absent because of how focused I was on the "man of god for our day and time" aka vp and his teachings while being surrounded by "like-minded believers".
How to move on? I think of what Jesus said in John 14:27, "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." Jesus will set things right, maybe only in part now but one day, in all things.
Even after being on GSC for months, I am still shocked, deeply saddened and angry by the continued deception twi uses when teaching on scriptures concerning Jesus. The words in purple below are taken from twi's article on the Great Principle (GP), the website for which is shown on page 1 of this thread. (the strikethroughs are mine)
Referring to the gift of holy spirit, John 16:13 says, “…for he [it] shall not speak of himself [itself]; but whatsoever he [it] shall hear, that shall he [it] speak….” This implies that your spirit, the gift, hears and learns from God and obeys what He tells it to say.
Nowhere in this verse does it say the spirit of truth learns from God!
We can see this again in verse 15 - no you do not! Verse 15 tells you exactly who is giving the words to the spirit of truth.
Jesus Christ says, “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he [it, the gift of holy spirit]shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” This is the first part of our basic principle—God, Who is Spirit, teaches your spirit.
This verse does not say “God…teaches…!” Jesus says that all the Father has is his (Jesus’), then he says the spirit of truth shall take of mine (Jesus’) and shall shew it unto you – the Spirit of truth takes from Jesus! Jesus just got the ax (discharged, fired, expelled, rejected) deliberately by twi!
The next verse – which they left out in their article – confirms verse 13.
14 He will glorify me (Jesus) because it is from me (Jesus) that he will receive what he will make known to you.
So much for twi's rightly dividing of God's word.
4 hours ago, Charity said:
Google definition of imply: strongly suggest the truth or existence of (something not expressly stated).
Why do they have to imply anything when verses 14 and 15 expressly state the truth. And they do more than just imply when the article later declares what the GP is:
The great principle we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out.
4 hours ago, Charity said:
Exactly and why would God even need toteach, or the spirit of truth need to learn, as stated in the twi's GP while the verses say that the spirit will hear, will take [2x])?
Google's definition of "teach" is to show or explain to (someone) how to do something so what's their sick reason for using the word teach? Maybe they just wanted it to flow with the next part of their sick GP that says "Your spirit teaches your mind." (I wish there was a "vomit" emoji.)
3 hours ago, Charity said:
The unsettling part of this is that like most people in twi now, I used to believe the GP when I was in twi. Never questioned it once - just complete ignorance on my part that it were teachings like this that were behind the absent Christ in my life, and I wasn't even aware that Christ was absent because of how focused I was on the "man of god for our day and time" aka vp and his teachings while being surrounded by "like-minded believers".
How to move on? I think of what Jesus said in John 14:27, "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." Jesus will set things right, maybe only in part now but one day, in all things.
Charity, great analysis in your posts!
Like OldSkool said in the starter post, the current TWI is trying to coverup fallacies. The persistent problem as I see it, is that there are MULTIPLE issues in ‘the great principle’ (as it is in most of wierwille’s befuddling ‘theories’). wierwille’sinterpolations* (see footnotes) of John 16 had taken unjustified liberties – inserting foreign ideas and speculating on stuff of which he didn’t have a clue.
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Not that this would be biblically accurate but if I had to give a linear representation of a John 16 “flowchart” it would be:
The Father - -> The Son — > The Holy Spirit — > you
trying to think of something catchy like ‘the great principle’ for this foursome maybe
RSVP Trinity Plus One
Or picking up on the flowchart concept – a river flowing – like the Guadalupe Riverbut it would be Quadalupe River
A flowchart is a modern construct…and I think if Jesus was indicating some type of movement – maybe it’s just that it all proceeds from The Father.…we’re talking about a mission - an important assignment carried out for a special purpose and it usually involves travel...ta-ta see ya around ...
...But anyway…that’s the bigger picture…the mission…we’ve been recruited for the mission…while on earth Jesus Christ carried out the mission…now the Holy Spirit is carrying out the mission through us. With the help of the Holy Spirit we bring people to Christ and Christ reconciles them back to the Father...On another thread I got into this a little bit - reflecting on my 12 years of involvement with TWI and how wierwille subverted the role of the Holy Spirit...instead of carrying out the mission that came from the Father to the Son to the Holy Spirit - I served a self-centered cult-leader and his agenda...I got off mission. damn that sucked
We are finite beings stuck in a specific spacetime continuum. But not so with The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
How does anything work in the spiritual realm? I don't know!
And what is the spiritual realm? I don't know!
Imagine if you were a 2-dimensional sentient being – like a stick figure that the Divine Artist doodled on paper...what does divine mean anyway? I don't know - maybe the one who created you is otherworldly.
Now imagine if you got in a conversation with the Divine Artist. Do you think you could wrap your mind around the world of the Divine Artist when more than 2 dimensions are involved? "What do you mean there's stuff in front of and behind this piece of paper I'm on? What does that mean? I don't see anything! Is there more to life than this piece of paper?"
~ ~ ~ ~
In my opinion, the biggest problems are probably wierwille’s misconceptions as well as his anti-Trinitarian bias - instead of acknowledging the Spirit of truth (the Holy Spirit) as part of the Godhead – wierwille mixes up the Spirit of truth with the Father. wierwille probably ‘borrowed’ from Bullinger’s The Giver and His Gifts; Or, The Holy Spirit and His Work: Bullinger, E. W.: 9781614276739: Amazon.com: Booksanyway – Bullinger / wierwille differentiated God the Father as Holy Spiritand God’s gift – or ‘creation’ in you as holy spirit.
Fundamentalism tends to take everything so literally. I can see why – when you have such a wooden interpretation. Note the prayer of the psalmist:
Amplified Bible Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a right and steadfast spirit within me.
Psalm 51:10
Was the psalmist asking for God to literally create a new heart? Or could it have been like going to the Divine Designer and asking Him to take this old, dirty, and disorganized ‘interior’ and give it a fresh and neat new look?
I’ve shared on other threads > heresoul & spirit synonymous in Scriptureand > here incorruptible seed refers to the Word of Godwhich highlight the figurative…poetic…and non-technical narratives of the Bible…Bullinger and wierwille both had a tendency to squeeze the Bible so hard trying to make it fit into a preconceived mold of mathematical exactness and scientific precision...yeah mathematical exactness = 4 crucified
~ ~ ~ ~
Reflecting on my former TWI-mindset, a lot of my concepts I adopted from wierwille’s idiosyncratic and self-centered perspective. I’ve got my own holy spirit – woo-hoo I’m a big deal !Oh, the thrill of ownership!!!!
Try this – read the following and see if you can recall TWI’s slant on it:
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
I remember wierwille teaching that ourholy spirit is the down payment of our inheritance…
but another way to look at it is that the HolySpirit comes to indwell the believer – to secure…preserve our salvation. The “seal” refers to an official mark on a document or contract – and thus under the authority of the person whose stamp was on the seal. The Holy Spirit gives us permission to participate in the fullness of God’s love, mercy, and work here on earth until we reach our future inheritance in heaven.
The nine manifestations of holy spirit operate under a basic principle that can be seen in the following verses, which record Jesus Christ prophesying of the gift of holy spirit. Referring to the gift of holy spirit, John 16:13 says, “…for he [it] shall not speak of himself [itself]; but whatsoever he [it] shall hear, that shall he [it] speak….” This implies that your spirit, the gift, hears and learns from God and obeys what He tells it to say. We can see this again in verse 15. Jesus Christ says, “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he [it, the gift of holy spirit] shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” This is the first part of our basic principle—God, Who is Spirit, teaches your spirit.
In John 14, we can see the next part of the principle. Your spirit teaches your mind.
John 14:26:
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [the gift of holy spirit], whom the Father will send in my name, he [it] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
The great principle we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out.
”…it was the winter of 1951. I flew to Tulsa, checked into the hotel, and went over to where the meeting was that night. It was a big rally. I met someone, told him my need, and he got all excited. He said he’d introduce me to some great men. They’d lay hands on me and lead me into tongues.”
“So before the meeting they got together, nine great men, in one room. They started praying, then three or four laid hands on me, and finally one of them said, ‘Speak another language.’ So, I spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started jumping up and down. They thought it was great. They didn’t know Greek. They said I had received and told me to speak another language.”
“So I did. I spoke in Hebrew – quoted from Genesis, and they just got all excited, congratulating themselves about it.”
“But in my heart, I knew I wasn’t speaking in tongues. You see, they’d just told me to speak in another language.; they never taught me or showed me the accuracy of the Word on this. They said ‘another language’ and I spoke another language.”
Excerpt from The Way Living in Love, wierwille relates his experiences to Elena Whiteside
~ ~ ~ ~
In the green book, The New Dynamic Church, in chapter 10 How to Speak in Tongues on page 117 wierwille says the following:
Have you ever thought through the mechanics of speech? You with your own vocal organs have to do the speaking. The same mechanics that are involved in speaking English or any other known language are involved in speaking in tongues…
…The only difference between speaking in tongues and speaking in English is that when I say, “I love the Lord Jesus Christ,” I have to think. When I speak in tongues I do not think the words I speak. God gives the words to my spirit, and I formulate them on my lips. I do not think the words, but they are there when I move my lips, my throat, my tongue.
End of excerpt from the green book, The New Dynamic Church
~ ~ ~ ~
Conclusion:
wierwille taught followers how to fake speaking in tongues
The Way International continues that mindless tradition
The nine manifestations of holy spirit operate under a basic principle that can be seen in the following verses, which record Jesus Christ prophesying of the gift of holy spirit. Referring to the gift of holy spirit, John 16:13 says, “…for he [it] shall not speak of himself [itself]; but whatsoever he [it] shall hear, that shall he [it] speak….” This implies that your spirit, the gift, hears and learns from God and obeys what He tells it to say. We can see this again in verse 15. Jesus Christ says, “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he [it, the gift of holy spirit] shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” This is the first part of our basic principle—God, Who is Spirit, teaches your spirit.
In John 14, we can see the next part of the principle. Your spirit teaches your mind.
John 14:26:
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [the gift of holy spirit], whom the Father will send in my name, he [it] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
The great principle we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out.
”…it was the winter of 1951. I flew to Tulsa, checked into the hotel, and went over to where the meeting was that night. It was a big rally. I met someone, told him my need, and he got all excited. He said he’d introduce me to some great men. They’d lay hands on me and lead me into tongues.”
“So before the meeting they got together, nine great men, in one room. They started praying, then three or four laid hands on me, and finally one of them said, ‘Speak another language.’ So, I spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started jumping up and down. They thought it was great. They didn’t know Greek. They said I had received and told me to speak another language.”
“So I did. I spoke in Hebrew – quoted from Genesis, and they just got all excited, congratulating themselves about it.”
“But in my heart, I knew I wasn’t speaking in tongues. You see, they’d just told me to speak in another language.; they never taught me or showed me the accuracy of the Word on this. They said ‘another language’ and I spoke another language.”
Excerpt from The Way Living in Love, wierwille relates his experiences to Elena Whiteside
~ ~ ~ ~
In the green book, The New Dynamic Church, in chapter 10 How to Speak in Tongues on page 117 wierwille says the following:
Have you ever thought through the mechanics of speech? You with your own vocal organs have to do the speaking. The same mechanics that are involved in speaking English or any other known language are involved in speaking in tongues…
…The only difference between speaking in tongues and speaking in English is that when I say, “I love the Lord Jesus Christ,” I have to think. When I speak in tongues I do not think the words I speak. God gives the words to my spirit, and I formulate them on my lips. I do not think the words, but they are there when I move my lips, my throat, my tongue.
End of excerpt from the green book, The New Dynamic Church
~ ~ ~ ~
Conclusion:
wierwille taught followers how to fake speaking in tongues
The Way International continues that mindless tradition
Hi T-Bone, do you or anyone else know of someone who has had a different experience than the above when they first began to speak in tongues? Do you know of people who spoke in tongues following vp's instructions, but who later realized it wasn't genuine?
Hi T-Bone, do you or anyone else know of someone who has had a different experience than the above when they first began to speak in tongues? Do you know of people who spoke in tongues following vp's instructions, but who later realized it wasn't genuine?
Speaking for myself - I realized I had faked it after I left TWI…in high school I used to do impressions of other languages for the amusement of my friends…at session 12 of the class I followed the instructions- move my lips , tongue mouth but don’t think about what is said. It was just like my high school schtick- a mix of Russian and Asian sounding gibberish.
Like OldSkool said in the starter post, the current TWI is trying to coverup fallacies. The persistent problem as I see it, is that there are MULTIPLE issues in ‘the great principle’ (as it is in most of wierwille’s befuddling ‘theories’). wierwille’sinterpolations* (see footnotes) of John 16 had taken unjustified liberties – inserting foreign ideas and speculating on stuff of which he didn’t have a clue.
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Not that this would be biblically accurate but if I had to give a linear representation of a John 16 “flowchart” it would be:
The Father - -> The Son — > The Holy Spirit — > you
trying to think of something catchy like ‘the great principle’ for this foursome maybe
RSVP Trinity Plus One
Or picking up on the flowchart concept – a river flowing – like the Guadalupe Riverbut it would be Quadalupe River
A flowchart is a modern construct…and I think if Jesus was indicating some type of movement – maybe it’s just that it all proceeds from The Father.…we’re talking about a mission - an important assignment carried out for a special purpose and it usually involves travel...ta-ta see ya around ...
...But anyway…that’s the bigger picture…the mission…we’ve been recruited for the mission…while on earth Jesus Christ carried out the mission…now the Holy Spirit is carrying out the mission through us. With the help of the Holy Spirit we bring people to Christ and Christ reconciles them back to the Father...On another thread I got into this a little bit - reflecting on my 12 years of involvement with TWI and how wierwille subverted the role of the Holy Spirit...instead of carrying out the mission that came from the Father to the Son to the Holy Spirit - I served a self-centered cult-leader and his agenda...I got off mission. damn that sucked
We are finite beings stuck in a specific spacetime continuum. But not so with The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
How does anything work in the spiritual realm? I don't know!
And what is the spiritual realm? I don't know!
Imagine if you were a 2-dimensional sentient being – like a stick figure that the Divine Artist doodled on paper...what does divine mean anyway? I don't know - maybe the one who created you is otherworldly.
Now imagine if you got in a conversation with the Divine Artist. Do you think you could wrap your mind around the world of the Divine Artist when more than 2 dimensions are involved? "What do you mean there's stuff in front of and behind this piece of paper I'm on? What does that mean? I don't see anything! Is there more to life than this piece of paper?"
~ ~ ~ ~
In my opinion, the biggest problems are probably wierwille’s misconceptions as well as his anti-Trinitarian bias - instead of acknowledging the Spirit of truth (the Holy Spirit) as part of the Godhead – wierwille mixes up the Spirit of truth with the Father. wierwille probably ‘borrowed’ from Bullinger’s The Giver and His Gifts; Or, The Holy Spirit and His Work: Bullinger, E. W.: 9781614276739: Amazon.com: Booksanyway – Bullinger / wierwille differentiated God the Father as Holy Spiritand God’s gift – or ‘creation’ in you as holy spirit.
Fundamentalism tends to take everything so literally. I can see why – when you have such a wooden interpretation. Note the prayer of the psalmist:
Amplified Bible Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a right and steadfast spirit within me.
Psalm 51:10
Was the psalmist asking for God to literally create a new heart? Or could it have been like going to the Divine Designer and asking Him to take this old, dirty, and disorganized ‘interior’ and give it a fresh and neat new look?
I’ve shared on other threads > heresoul & spirit synonymous in Scriptureand > here incorruptible seed refers to the Word of Godwhich highlight the figurative…poetic…and non-technical narratives of the Bible…Bullinger and wierwille both had a tendency to squeeze the Bible so hard trying to make it fit into a preconceived mold of mathematical exactness and scientific precision...yeah mathematical exactness = 4 crucified
~ ~ ~ ~
Reflecting on my former TWI-mindset, a lot of my concepts I adopted from wierwille’s idiosyncratic and self-centered perspective. I’ve got my own holy spirit – woo-hoo I’m a big deal !Oh, the thrill of ownership!!!!
Try this – read the following and see if you can recall TWI’s slant on it:
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
I remember wierwille teaching that ourholy spirit is the down payment of our inheritance…
but another way to look at it is that the HolySpirit comes to indwell the believer – to secure…preserve our salvation. The “seal” refers to an official mark on a document or contract – and thus under the authority of the person whose stamp was on the seal. The Holy Spirit gives us permission to participate in the fullness of God’s love, mercy, and work here on earth until we reach our future inheritance in heaven.
Thanks T-Bone for your email. I know Mike had a problem with me using footnotes, unlike the caveman above - too I guess.
Your wrote above, "Reflecting on my former TWI-mindset, a lot of my concepts I adopted from wierwille’s idiosyncratic and self-centered perspective. I’ve got my own holy spirit – woo-hoo I’m a big deal !Oh, the thrill of ownership!!!! "
I find the 2 uses of the words "your spirit" in twi's GP bothersome. It seems supported by vp's teaching on body, soul and spirit. Before being born again, man is body and soul only. After being born again, man is now body, soul and spirit. So, since the spirit is now in my body, it has become my spirit.
It makes the spirit so miniscule this way when compared to it being God's spirit in me.
Speaking for myself - I realized I had faked it after I left TWI…in high school I used to do impressions of other languages for the amusement of my friends…at session 12 of the class I followed the instructions- move my lips , tongue mouth but don’t think about what is said. It was just like my high school schtick- a mix of Russian and Asian sounding gibberish.
This is both a bit funny and sad at the same time. Thanks for sharing it. I'm looking for an article by John Juedes that I found quite a while ago about SIT at the end of the pfal class.
This is both a bit funny and sad at the same time. Thanks for sharing it. I'm looking for an article by John Juedes that I found quite a while ago about SIT at the end of the pfal class.
Actually this isn't the one I found earlier. That one had a recommendation for people for began to speak in tongues because of the pfal class. Does anyone know of this website?
Hi T-Bone, do you or anyone else know of someone who has had a different experience than the above when they first began to speak in tongues? Do you know of people who spoke in tongues following vp's instructions, but who later realized it wasn't genuine?
I know we had several discussions on the subject here- which is to say, several threads here on the subjects, from different angles. By the end of the discussions, I'd reversed my position. I wasn't the first person to do so, but I'm not sure anyone else did during the actual discussions.
Look at this diagram of the functional areas of the brain…think of all the tasks involved when speaking.
One of the most questionable things with wierwille’s instructions on how to speak in tongues is the doubletalk of him saying don’t think about the words you say – but do think about what body parts you have to control to produce - - - gibberish. His instructions are contradictory nonsense. And thousands of followers have bought into it. The utterance manifestations are the easiest thing to fake.
Because of wierwille’s erroneous interpretations of I Corinthians 12 & 14, all TWI followers think they can ‘operate’ all nine manifestations of I Corinthians 12. I don’t doubt the Holy Spirit can distribute gifts as He sees fit – but I suspect a class or book that has a cookie cutter approach does not take the place of the absent Holy Spirit.
There are some hyperlinks below the diagram on the mechanics of speech - check them out - maybe you'll see what I do - there's too much involved in speaking a real language that makes wierwille's directions absurd!
There are also some interesting hyperlinks that offer other viewpoints on speaking in tongues…
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Charity
Reading twi's article both was emotionally and physically sickening. It so reinforced the doctrinal and practical errors that robbed believers of having a personal relationship with God and Jesus Chr
Bolshevik
Rocky
Who among you (or us) might be strategic thinkers? Was Victor Wierwille a strategic thinker? (not necessarily a rhetorical question) Is Mike a strategic thinker? (rhetorical questi
Bolshevik
Sorry I was thinking of the WAP class, LCM actually bit the Bible. So the paper would be the fiber.
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chockfull
Ah yes PLAFT-2.
Where men in tights met Michaelangelo.
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Bolshevik
Ha! Some see a painting . . . . Perverts can only see that which they are.
It's the Great Principle (GP)
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chockfull
Yeah that nasty old snake that seduced the wifey. He saw too much of himself in Genesis and not enough genuine research. Of course the paradigm he followed for “re-search” was pretty much non accredited story making and stealing so “you can’t go beyond what you are taught”.
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Charity
Even after being on GSC for months, I am still shocked, deeply saddened and angry by the continued deception twi uses when teaching on scriptures concerning Jesus. The words in purple below are taken from twi's article on the Great Principle (GP), the website for which is shown on page 1 of this thread. (the strikethroughs are mine)
Referring to the gift of holy spirit, John 16:13 says, “…for he
[it]shall not speak of himself[itself]; but whatsoever he[it]shall hear, that shall he[it]speak….” This implies that your spirit, the gift, hears and learns from God and obeys what He tells it to say.Nowhere in this verse does it say the spirit of truth learns from God!
We can see this again in verse 15 - no you do not! Verse 15 tells you exactly who is giving the words to the spirit of truth.
Jesus Christ says, “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he
[it, the gift of holy spirit]shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” This is the first part of our basic principle—God, Who is Spirit, teaches your spirit.This verse does not say “God…teaches…!”
Jesus says that all the Father has is his (Jesus’), then he says the spirit of truth shall take of mine (Jesus’) and shall shew it unto you – the Spirit of truth takes from Jesus! Jesus just got the ax (discharged, fired, expelled, rejected) deliberately by twi! 
The next verse – which they left out in their article – confirms verse 13.
14 He will glorify me (Jesus) because it is from me (Jesus) that he will receive what he will make known to you.
So much for twi's rightly dividing of God's word.
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chockfull
Nice work Charity.
SMH at these fundamentalists who say God has a reason for everything He says, where,why,when,to whom out of one side of their mouth then use “implies” in a rich creative sense of interpretation injecting things into the text that aren’t there and removing other things that are there.
I would say they are fundamentally confused at what they are pumping themselves up to be experts in.
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OldSkool
I'm considering that holy spirit as given on pentecost is not only a down payment for our redemption but also is used by Christ as the head of the body...why would God need it? I dunno...just a thought...I could be foot backwards wrong.
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Charity
Google definition of imply: strongly suggest the truth or existence of (something not expressly stated).
Why do they have to imply anything when verses 14 and 15 expressly state the truth. And they do more than just imply when the article later declares what the GP is:
The great principle we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out.
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Charity
Exactly and why would God even need to teach, or the spirit of truth need to learn, as stated in the twi's GP while the verses say that the spirit will hear, will take [2x])?
Google's definition of "teach" is to show or explain to (someone) how to do something so what's their sick reason for using the word teach? Maybe they just wanted it to flow with the next part of their sick GP that says "Your spirit teaches your mind." (I wish there was a "vomit" emoji.)
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Charity
The unsettling part of this is that like most people in twi now, I used to believe the GP when I was in twi. Never questioned it once - just complete ignorance on my part that it were teachings like this that were behind the absent Christ in my life, and I wasn't even aware that Christ was absent because of how focused I was on the "man of god for our day and time" aka vp and his teachings while being surrounded by "like-minded believers".
How to move on? I think of what Jesus said in John 14:27, "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." Jesus will set things right, maybe only in part now but one day, in all things.
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T-Bone
Charity, great analysis in your posts!
Like OldSkool said in the starter post, the current TWI is trying to coverup fallacies. The persistent problem as I see it, is that there are MULTIPLE issues in ‘the great principle’ (as it is in most of wierwille’s befuddling ‘theories’). wierwille’s interpolations* (see footnotes) of John 16 had taken unjustified liberties – inserting foreign ideas and speculating on stuff of which he didn’t have a clue.
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
John 16: 12 – 15
Not that this would be biblically accurate but if I had to give a linear representation of a John 16 “flowchart” it would be:
The Father - -> The Son — > The Holy Spirit — > you
trying to think of something catchy like ‘the great principle’ for this foursome maybe
RSVP Trinity Plus One
Or picking up on the flowchart concept – a river flowing – like the Guadalupe River but it would be Quadalupe River
A flowchart is a modern construct…and I think if Jesus was indicating some type of movement – maybe it’s just that it all proceeds from The Father.…we’re talking about a mission - an important assignment carried out for a special purpose and it usually involves travel...ta-ta see ya around
...
...But anyway…that’s the bigger picture…the mission…we’ve been recruited for the mission…while on earth Jesus Christ carried out the mission…now the Holy Spirit is carrying out the mission through us. With the help of the Holy Spirit we bring people to Christ and Christ reconciles them back to the Father...On another thread I got into this a little bit - reflecting on my 12 years of involvement with TWI and how wierwille subverted the role of the Holy Spirit...instead of carrying out the mission that came from the Father to the Son to the Holy Spirit - I served a self-centered cult-leader and his agenda...I got off mission. damn that sucked
We are finite beings stuck in a specific spacetime continuum. But not so with The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
How does anything work in the spiritual realm? I don't know!
And what is the spiritual realm? I don't know!
Imagine if you were a 2-dimensional sentient being – like a stick figure that the Divine Artist doodled on paper...what does divine mean anyway? I don't know - maybe the one who created you is otherworldly.
Now imagine if you got in a conversation with the Divine Artist. Do you think you could wrap your mind around the world of the Divine Artist when more than 2 dimensions are involved? "What do you mean there's stuff in front of and behind this piece of paper I'm on? What does that mean? I don't see anything! Is there more to life than this piece of paper?"
~ ~ ~ ~
In my opinion, the biggest problems are probably wierwille’s misconceptions as well as his anti-Trinitarian bias - instead of acknowledging the Spirit of truth (the Holy Spirit) as part of the Godhead – wierwille mixes up the Spirit of truth with the Father. wierwille probably ‘borrowed’ from Bullinger’s The Giver and His Gifts; Or, The Holy Spirit and His Work: Bullinger, E. W.: 9781614276739: Amazon.com: Books anyway – Bullinger / wierwille differentiated God the Father as Holy Spirit and God’s gift – or ‘creation’ in you as holy spirit.
Fundamentalism tends to take everything so literally. I can see why – when you have such a wooden interpretation. Note the prayer of the psalmist:
Amplified Bible
Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a right and steadfast spirit within me.
Psalm 51:10
Was the psalmist asking for God to literally create a new heart? Or could it have been like going to the Divine Designer and asking Him to take this old, dirty, and disorganized ‘interior’ and give it a fresh and neat new look?
I’ve shared on other threads > here soul & spirit synonymous in Scripture and > here incorruptible seed refers to the Word of God which highlight the figurative…poetic…and non-technical narratives of the Bible…Bullinger and wierwille both had a tendency to squeeze the Bible so hard trying to make it fit into a preconceived mold of mathematical exactness and scientific precision...yeah mathematical exactness = 4 crucified
~ ~ ~ ~
Reflecting on my former TWI-mindset, a lot of my concepts I adopted from wierwille’s idiosyncratic and self-centered perspective. I’ve got my own holy spirit – woo-hoo I’m a big deal ! Oh, the thrill of ownership!!!!
Try this – read the following and see if you can recall TWI’s slant on it:
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1: 13, 14
I remember wierwille teaching that our holy spirit is the down payment of our inheritance…
but another way to look at it is that the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer – to secure…preserve our salvation. The “seal” refers to an official mark on a document or contract – and thus under the authority of the person whose stamp was on the seal. The Holy Spirit gives us permission to participate in the fullness of God’s love, mercy, and work here on earth until we reach our future inheritance in heaven.
~ ~ ~ ~
Footnotes
*Interpolation
Interpolation (Definition, Formula) | Calculation with Examples (wallstreetmojo.com)
Interpolate Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
Edited by T-Bone4 editors mortified
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T-Bone
The nine manifestations of holy spirit operate under a basic principle that can be seen in the following verses, which record Jesus Christ prophesying of the gift of holy spirit. Referring to the gift of holy spirit, John 16:13 says, “…for he [it] shall not speak of himself [itself]; but whatsoever he [it] shall hear, that shall he [it] speak….” This implies that your spirit, the gift, hears and learns from God and obeys what He tells it to say. We can see this again in verse 15. Jesus Christ says, “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he [it, the gift of holy spirit] shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” This is the first part of our basic principle—God, Who is Spirit, teaches your spirit.
In John 14, we can see the next part of the principle. Your spirit teaches your mind.
John 14:26:
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [the gift of holy spirit], whom the Father will send in my name, he [it] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
The great principle we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out.
Excerpt from: The Way International: operating the gift of The Holy Spirit
~ ~ ~ ~
”…it was the winter of 1951. I flew to Tulsa, checked into the hotel, and went over to where the meeting was that night. It was a big rally. I met someone, told him my need, and he got all excited. He said he’d introduce me to some great men. They’d lay hands on me and lead me into tongues.”
“So before the meeting they got together, nine great men, in one room. They started praying, then three or four laid hands on me, and finally one of them said, ‘Speak another language.’ So, I spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started jumping up and down. They thought it was great. They didn’t know Greek. They said I had received and told me to speak another language.”
“So I did. I spoke in Hebrew – quoted from Genesis, and they just got all excited, congratulating themselves about it.”
“But in my heart, I knew I wasn’t speaking in tongues. You see, they’d just told me to speak in another language.; they never taught me or showed me the accuracy of the Word on this. They said ‘another language’ and I spoke another language.”
Excerpt from The Way Living in Love, wierwille relates his experiences to Elena Whiteside
~ ~ ~ ~
In the green book, The New Dynamic Church, in chapter 10 How to Speak in Tongues on page 117 wierwille says the following:
Have you ever thought through the mechanics of speech? You with your own vocal organs have to do the speaking. The same mechanics that are involved in speaking English or any other known language are involved in speaking in tongues…
…The only difference between speaking in tongues and speaking in English is that when I say, “I love the Lord Jesus Christ,” I have to think. When I speak in tongues I do not think the words I speak. God gives the words to my spirit, and I formulate them on my lips. I do not think the words, but they are there when I move my lips, my throat, my tongue.
End of excerpt from the green book, The New Dynamic Church
~ ~ ~ ~
Conclusion:
wierwille taught followers how to fake speaking in tongues
The Way International continues that mindless tradition
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Charity
Hi T-Bone, do you or anyone else know of someone who has had a different experience than the above when they first began to speak in tongues? Do you know of people who spoke in tongues following vp's instructions, but who later realized it wasn't genuine?
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T-Bone
Speaking for myself - I realized I had faked it after I left TWI…in high school I used to do impressions of other languages for the amusement of my friends…at session 12 of the class I followed the instructions- move my lips , tongue mouth but don’t think about what is said. It was just like my high school schtick- a mix of Russian and Asian sounding gibberish.
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Charity
Thanks T-Bone for your email. I know Mike had a problem with me using footnotes, unlike the caveman above - too
I guess.
Your wrote above, "Reflecting on my former TWI-mindset, a lot of my concepts I adopted from wierwille’s idiosyncratic and self-centered perspective. I’ve got my own holy spirit – woo-hoo I’m a big deal ! Oh, the thrill of ownership!!!!
"
I find the 2 uses of the words "your spirit" in twi's GP bothersome. It seems supported by vp's teaching on body, soul and spirit. Before being born again, man is body and soul only. After being born again, man is now body, soul and spirit. So, since the spirit is now in my body, it has become my spirit.
It makes the spirit so miniscule this way when compared to it being God's spirit in me.
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Charity
This is both a bit funny and sad at the same time. Thanks for sharing it. I'm looking for an article by John Juedes that I found quite a while ago about SIT at the end of the pfal class.
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Charity
I found it http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stiles.htm
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Charity
Actually this isn't the one I found earlier. That one had a recommendation for people for began to speak in tongues because of the pfal class. Does anyone know of this website?
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WordWolf
The main page on twi is this:
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/cultsthe.htm
I'm not sure what, specifically, you're looking for, but it should be there somewhere.
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WordWolf
I know we had several discussions on the subject here- which is to say, several threads here on the subjects, from different angles. By the end of the discussions, I'd reversed my position. I wasn't the first person to do so, but I'm not sure anyone else did during the actual discussions.
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WordWolf
BTW, I'll dig out the links to the discussions.
The discussions in "Open" didn't address Doctrine (beliefs) nor About the Way (what does twi teach), and those threads are here:
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24206-what-is-language/
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/23550-free-vocalization/
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WordWolf
Ok, Doctrinal....
In "Another Discussion on SIT and the Bible", there's links to a bunch of the other discussions.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24434-another-discussion-on-sit-and-the-bible/
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/23213-sit-online-reading-room/
The SIT Online Reading Room had links to offsite references.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/23940-yet-another-thread-on-speaking-in-tongues/
"Yet another thread on speaking in tongues" came after all the other threads were done.
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WordWolf
This thread, "Speaking in Tongues", preceded the long discussions.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/17459-speaking-in-tongues/
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T-Bone
Look at this diagram of the functional areas of the brain…think of all the tasks involved when speaking.
One of the most questionable things with wierwille’s instructions on how to speak in tongues is the doubletalk of him saying don’t think about the words you say – but do think about what body parts you have to control to produce - - - gibberish. His instructions are contradictory nonsense. And thousands of followers have bought into it. The utterance manifestations are the easiest thing to fake.
Because of wierwille’s erroneous interpretations of I Corinthians 12 & 14, all TWI followers think they can ‘operate’ all nine manifestations of I Corinthians 12. I don’t doubt the Holy Spirit can distribute gifts as He sees fit – but I suspect a class or book that has a cookie cutter approach does not take the place of the absent Holy Spirit.
There are some hyperlinks below the diagram on the mechanics of speech - check them out - maybe you'll see what I do - there's too much involved in speaking a real language that makes wierwille's directions absurd!
There are also some interesting hyperlinks that offer other viewpoints on speaking in tongues…
How we speak: the mechanics
Language (Speech) Production
What Part of the Brain Controls Speech: Several Parts of the Cerebrum (healthline.com)
Brain Control of Speech: How It Works | Speech and Language | Live Science
Neuroscientists Have Converted Brain Waves Into Verbal Speech | Smart News| Smithsonian Magazine
Tongues on the Mind | Science | AAAS
Speaking in Tongues - The real story • Skeptical Science (skeptical-science.com)
Brain imaging on speaking in tongues. (slate.com)
What Is Speaking in Tongues, and Is It Relevant Today? - Topical Studies (biblestudytools.com)
Speaking In Tongues - by John MacArthur
John MacArthur explains why tongues is easy to falsify in an ignorant environment
Edited by T-Bonewhittled down
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