I mean Im trying to leave out the obvious that God's power comes with a relationship with Jesus Christ and God...its not something that can be operated.
When my son was in about 4th or 5th grade he said, "Hey, Dad, let's build a go-kart." I said, "OK, how will we make it go?" He said, "We'll put an old lawnmower engine on it." "Well, that sounds good", I said. "How will we make the engine turn the wheels?"
So, God, who can only talk to spirit, teaches my spirit, which teaches my .......Hey! Wait a minute!
So my question then becomes did they edit out the great principle to elminate the obvious fallacy that God who is spirit can only talk to that which he is: spirit.
I checked the collaterals and PFLAP book and didn't explicitly find the great principle so I am assuming it was relegated to the DTA class (which is defunct AFAIK), or the Advanced class as that was the last place I remember seeing it laid out in detail. So is TWI whitewashing the great principle too? Or are they just letting the cat out the bag a little at a time and then setting the hook later in the pflap class series with that erroneous garbage: That God who is Spirit can only communicate with that which he is spirit and that spirit in turn teaches our fleshly minds, something God couldnt do...yeah...
What is immediately obvious to me is the principle was downgraded from GREAT to basic..
So my question then becomes did they edit out the great principle to elminate the obvious fallacy that God who is spirit can only talk to that which he is: spirit.
I checked the collaterals and PFLAP book and didn't explicitly find the great principle so I am assuming it was relegated to the DTA class (which is defunct AFAIK), or the Advanced class as that was the last place I remember seeing it laid out in detail. So is TWI whitewashing the great principle too? Or are they just letting the cat out the bag a little at a time and then setting the hook later in the pflap class series with that erroneous garbage: That God who is Spirit can only communicate with that which he is spirit and that spirit in turn teaches our fleshly minds, something God couldnt do...yeah...
The other day I was reading that article on TWI’s website and noticed that omission too (“…God can only speak to what He is which is spirit…”). But the unspoken 'wierwillian-concept' is the same and touches on some very complicated subjects - which I won’t get into in detail here - other than showing there’s more than one way of addressing how does God work in us - btw Charity started a fascinating thread on that > Here
But anyway …to be brief - the deeper topics to explore when reevaluating the great principle are:
1. The mysterious dynamics of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - the Scriptures suggest they are somehow intertwined - especially in John 14, 15, and 16 and of course in the epistles where all 3 might be referenced in the context certainly hints at an ‘interagency’
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2. wierwille’s dichotomy of Holy Spirit and holy spirit is highly suspect. wierwille’s misinterpretations and interpolations of I Corinthians 12, 13, and 14 are the mainstay of this erroneous doctrine. this assumes we receive something distinctly separate from God. See trichotomy / dichotomy point below
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3. wierwille introduced another step in how God works in each believer - exemplified by his egocentric bias of saying I Corinthians 12:11 meant the believer determines what abilities they will “operate” - in other words depending on one’s believing - a person will tend to have a long suit or suits in certain spiritual abilities…that is contrary to the simple idea expressed in passages like Romans 12, Philippians 2:13, I Peter 4:10 where we are encouraged to use whatever gift we’ve received to serve others
Nowhere in Scripture do we find detailed instructions on HOW to ‘operate’ the gift of the ‘holy spirit’ (lower case “h” and “s” to indicate something separate from the Holy Spirit = God) . All Scripture - including I Corinthians 12,13, and 14 have an underlying assumption - we already HAVE certain gifts - the thrust of most passages teach us to have the proper attitude and get busy serving others with those gifts.
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4. wierwille’s trichotomy of the original true nature of humankind - body, soul, and spirit further obfuscates how God works in us.
Whether one holds to a trichotomy view, or a dichotomy view of humankind is debatable in some circles - personally I don’t get hung up in the concept - since we’re not talking about 'trans-dimensional surgery to separate spirit from matter' - but rather in the context of evangelizing, counseling and serving we are concerned with the WHOLE person.
I personally lean toward a dichotomy and have gotten into more Scripture on this on other threads:
Part of the problem here was that vpw's pfal was all over the map here.
If you took "Living Victoriously", vpw said, in nearly each session, "There is a time for all things, but there is a thing for all times, and that is" and each time he said that, it was a completely different thing. He seemed to have been trying for a laugh rather than actually trying to impart some useful information. It would not surprise me if he was poking fun at his OWN tendency to blow up his own explanations by changing what things meant.
I mean, if one understands material and then explains it, the explanations all remain consistent- and anything that follows will fit in with the previous explanations. Only people who don't understand something will end up with explanations that don't connect. Naturally, we then have people follow along to connect unrelated concepts and claim all of it was correct. It's like those people who analyzed the Beatles' songs. So the Beatles then did songs like "I Am the Walrus" and watched people try to make sense out of the senseless.
So, in pfal, vpw said that God is Spirit, and that was consistent. But the rest of the sentence changed- "and God can only give that which He is" "and God can only communicate with what He is" and finally we got the chart you mentioned.
To those who are paying attention, it's obvious he was improvising and pretending he understood all that at the time. Naturally, there will always be someone who insisted he was right each time, and somehow all of that actually made sense, and the problem is US.
Part of the problem here was that vpw's pfal was all over the map here.
If you took "Living Victoriously", vpw said, in nearly each session, "There is a time for all things, but there is a thing for all times, and that is" and each time he said that, it was a completely different thing. He seemed to have been trying for a laugh rather than actually trying to impart some useful information. It would not surprise me if he was poking fun at his OWN tendency to blow up his own explanations by changing what things meant.
I mean, if one understands material and then explains it, the explanations all remain consistent- and anything that follows will fit in with the previous explanations. Only people who don't understand something will end up with explanations that don't connect. Naturally, we then have people follow along to connect unrelated concepts and claim all of it was correct. It's like those people who analyzed the Beatles' songs. So the Beatles then did songs like "I Am the Walrus" and watched people try to make sense out of the senseless.
So, in pfal, vpw said that God is Spirit, and that was consistent. But the rest of the sentence changed- "and God can only give that which He is" "and God can only communicate with what He is" and finally we got the chart you mentioned.
To those who are paying attention, it's obvious he was improvising and pretending he understood all that at the time. Naturally, there will always be someone who insisted he was right each time, and somehow all of that actually made sense, and the problem is US.
Interesting and enlightening. Im thinking this is a fair assessment of VPW. The thing that bakes my noodle, so to speak, is the absolute dishonesty TWI uses with changing, editing, revising, dropping doctrines that VPW set in motion. It is really their tacit agreement that he was saying some wild stuff but they are willing to edit away all the questionable doctrines to endeavor to acheive some sense of acceptance from their disenfranchised followers and modern day Christianity. In the case of The Way Loving in Love they have dropped an entire book and seem to pretend it never existed...giving this particular book because it was loaded with insanity and is obviously an embarrassment to present TWI leadership.
1. The mysterious dynamics of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - the Scriptures suggest they are somehow intertwined - especially in John 14, 15, and 16 and of course in the epistles where all 3 might be referenced in the context certainly hints at an ‘interagency’
I went back through and read the chapters in John you mentioned, love that section of scripture btw. Im willing to put forth an idea on how all this works and I feel that wierwille missed the entire boat. Im thinking that the interagency you mentioned T-Bone has everything to do with God's love for us and God redeeming those who will choose to accept Christ as their Lord. It all works along the love of God and is everything to do with a Father and his love for his children, yeah his entire creation John 3:16. So from God to Jesus Christ to those who declare him Lord is the new nature, holy spirit, the mystery, the spirit of sonship that was sent into our hearts that cries Abba Father. In our response we love God back by being obedient to his will, and as we live our lives as witnesses of Jesus Christ, the three agree as one - God, Jesus Christ, Us, his children who have been clothed in holy spirit. Its by the love of God that works in us that we reach out and minister to those in need simply because we love God and it's his will for us to serve each other and love our neighbors as ourselves after we love God with our entire heart, soul, mind, and strength. The story of God and his people has always been, is right now, and will always be a love story. Whether is the love of a Groom for his Bride or the love of a Father for his lost but now found children: Love rules the day.
People like wierwille make the mistake of trying to climb up some other way than the actual Jesus Christ by replacing him with an absent counterfeit that suits their lusts. Instead of love they mistake the power of God as a means to satisfy their lusts for material gain, and I think weve seen that play out with wierille and the way international. They speak of tapping the power of God...they speak of operating the gift, they speak of the new nature as a lever of power to push material gain into their coffers. Instead of love for God and Christ they operate out of a material lust and see God's power as a means to an end. Which is why the very top leadership of the way international DO NOT work miracles, they DO NOT heal the sick, they DO NOT love Gods people the way God would have them to and they especially dishonor God and Jesus Christ by devlaring Christ absent and replacing him with a book that wasnt even printed until 1455.
What is immediately obvious to me is the principle was downgraded from GREAT to basic..
Thats an astute observation. So does it become great again in the advanced class? Is it basic in this context because they are just touching on the basic elements of their no-so-great principle? Interesting.
So my question then becomes did they edit out the great principle to elminate the obvious fallacy that God who is spirit can only talk to that which he is: spirit.
I checked the collaterals and PFLAP book and didn't explicitly find the great principle so I am assuming it was relegated to the DTA class (which is defunct AFAIK), or the Advanced class as that was the last place I remember seeing it laid out in detail. So is TWI whitewashing the great principle too? Or are they just letting the cat out the bag a little at a time and then setting the hook later in the pflap class series with that erroneous garbage: That God who is Spirit can only communicate with that which he is spirit and that spirit in turn teaches our fleshly minds, something God couldnt do...yeah...
Looking at the article first off who is the author? They seem unwilling to commit a persons name attached to articles.
Are they morphing into “The Watchtower Society” where it is an entity no longer a person writing?
Next the ONLY supporting verses they have are gospel verses for the GP. And they state right there in the article “implies” that it works like that.
It only “implies” that if you accept VPs noun definition which I don’t as it is horky.
I find it disturbing that we can absolutely rule out the dual nature of God, Jesus, HS but we can just accept random capitalizations “as VP was moved by hs”.
If the GP was so great why is it only referenced in an implied fashion in the gospels as opposed to stated clearly in the epistles?
Looking at the article first off who is the author? They seem unwilling to commit a persons name attached to articles.
Im thinking that started with the revival and restoration exodus...or maybe it was Rico going to HQ to teach from Florida and telling Rosalie that God told him to tell her that he was to take over the ministry?...Not realy sure but I feel it's related to something around that time frame...
Im thinking that the interagency you mentioned T-Bone has everything to do with God's love for us and God redeeming those who will choose to accept Christ as their Lord. It all works along the love of God and is everything to do with a Father and his love for his children, yeah his entire creation John 3:16. So from God to Jesus Christ to those who declare him Lord is the new nature, holy spirit, the mystery, the spirit of sonship that was sent into our hearts that cries Abba Father. In our response we love God back by being obedient to his will, and as we live our lives as witnesses of Jesus Christ, the three agree as one - God, Jesus Christ, Us, his children who have been clothed in holy spirit. Its by the love of God that works in us that we reach out and minister to those in need simply because we love God and it's his will for us to serve each other and love our neighbors as ourselves after we love God with our entire heart, soul, mind, and strength. The story of God and his people has always been, is right now, and will always be a love story. Whether is the love of a Groom for his Bride or the love of a Father for his lost but now found children: Love rules the day.
yup!
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Revisiting TWI’s article, I think they repeat the same mistake wierwille made of misinterpreting John 14 and 16 as if it applies to ‘operating the holy spirit’ as if Jesus was revealing to us how to control a power that is independent of God. First look at the article:
To see this power in manifestation, we must operate the gift God has given us. But how does it work? God’s Word can help us understand the operation of the gift of holy spirit.
The nine manifestations of holy spirit operate under a basic principle that can be seen in the following verses, which record Jesus Christ prophesying of the gift of holy spirit. Referring to the gift of holy spirit, John 16:13 says, “…for he [it] shall not speak of himself [itself]; but whatsoever he [it] shall hear, that shall he [it] speak….” This implies that your spirit, the gift, hears and learns from God and obeys what He tells it to say. We can see this again in verse 15. Jesus Christ says, “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he [it, the gift of holy spirit] shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” This is the first part of our basic principle—God, Who is Spirit, teaches your spirit.
In John 14, we can see the next part of the principle. Your spirit teaches your mind.
John 14:26:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [the gift of holy spirit], whom the Father will send in my name, he [it] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
The great principle we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out.
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
5 but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”
17 At this, some of his disciples said to one another, “What does he mean by saying, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,’ and ‘Because I am going to the Father’?” 18 They kept asking, “What does he mean by ‘a little while’? We don’t understand what he is saying.”
19 Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this, so he said to them, “Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me’? 20 Very truly I tell you, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy. 21 A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world. 22 So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy. 23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”
29 Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30 Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”
31 “Do you now believe?” Jesus replied. 32 “A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
Jesus talked about the supernatural collaboration of the Father, the Holy Spirit and Himself – and most of it appears to be a forward-looking two-pronged approach – pointing to Pentecost and beyond – The Father will reveal Himself in Christ through the Holy Spirit – in retrospect one can easily see a reference to the New Testament writings:
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you…John 14: 26
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you…John 16: 13 - 15
So, these passages areNOTteaching about ‘the great principle’ of “God who is spirit teaching His creation in you which is now your spirit...& etc.”. These passages specifically speak to the collaboration of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to inspire the New Testament writings.
These passages may also be understood as alluding to a ‘general principle’ of how the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit inexplicably work together in each of us to help us better understand Scripture and use our particular gifts to serve others…wierwille’s egocentrism came up with the concept that we operate the spirit – that we are in controlof the holy spirit- he made it out like that’s what Corinthians taught:
9 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
34 Women[f] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[g]
36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.[h]
39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
Several study Bibles (* the three I’ve used for this post are listed below) give more background as to some of the problems troubling the Corinthian church. One of the issues was the common knowledge of ecstatic rituals in other religions – Christian believers might expect their experiences to be similar...it would be necessary to distinguish these practices of other religions from the genuine influence of the Holy Spirit – like the Speaking in tongues - Wikipedia practiced by some other religions – often accompanied with trance-like or even wild energetic behavior…In I Corinthians 14 we find Paul stressing that a believer’s behavior is always under self-control and that everything is to be done orderly and appropriately.
So my question then becomes did they edit out the great principle to elminate the obvious fallacy that God who is spirit can only talk to that which he is: spirit.
I checked the collaterals and PFLAP book and didn't explicitly find the great principle so I am assuming it was relegated to the DTA class (which is defunct AFAIK), or the Advanced class as that was the last place I remember seeing it laid out in detail. So is TWI whitewashing the great principle too? Or are they just letting the cat out the bag a little at a time and then setting the hook later in the pflap class series with that erroneous garbage: That God who is Spirit can only communicate with that which he is spirit and that spirit in turn teaches our fleshly minds, something God couldnt do...yeah...
Great principle? Is the expression somewhere in the bible?
Nevertheless, radical change can be hard for cultures to accept. Incremental changes, much easier.
1. The mysterious dynamics of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - the Scriptures suggest they are somehow intertwined - especially in John 14, 15, and 16 and of course in the epistles where all 3 might be referenced in the context certainly hints at an ‘interagency’
2. wierwille’s dichotomy of Holy Spirit and holy spirit is highly suspect. wierwille’s misinterpretations and interpolations of I Corinthians 12, 13, and 14 are the mainstay of this erroneous doctrine. this assumes we receive something distinctly separate from God. See trichotomy / dichotomy point below
3. wierwille introduced another step in how God works in each believer - exemplified by his egocentric bias of saying I Corinthians 12:11 meant the believer determines what abilities they will “operate” - in other words depending on one’s believing - a person will tend to have a long suit or suits in certain spiritual abilities…that is contrary to the simple idea expressed in passages like Romans 12, Philippians 2:13, I Peter 4:10 where we are encouraged to use whatever gift we’ve received to serve others
Nowhere in Scripture do we find detailed instructions on HOW to ‘operate’ the gift of the ‘holy spirit’ (lower case “h” and “s” to indicate something separate from the Holy Spirit = God) . All Scripture - including I Corinthians 12,13, and 14 have an underlying assumption - we already HAVE certain gifts - the thrust of most passages teach us to have the proper attitude and get busy serving others with those gifts.
Reading twi's article both was emotionally and physically sickening. It so reinforced the doctrinal and practical errors that robbed believers of having a personal relationship with God and Jesus Christ.
The gift of holy spirit that we received from God through Christ was changed five times into "your spirit" placing the emphasis on the believer'sownership (as mentioned in #2 above). This negates the "interagency" you spoke of in #1. In John 17:21, Jesus says, "That they (those who believe in him) all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." We know this is only possible because of God's spirit being within the believer.
With regard to #3, the command or exhortation that we "operate the gift" (which is likened to driving a car) is so impersonal but it was stated seven times, as was the number of times that the emphasis was placed on us and not God or Christ. The following phrases were used: when you act or as you speak out (2x), as you decide and believe to do so; as each believer wills or maturely deliberates; by our freewill decision; and it is up to us.
The 7th phrase incorrectly states "God energizes (energeō) the power as we believe and decide to act." This was in reference to Eph 1:19 which says nothing about "as we believe" or "deciding to act." It does say, "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe," but according to verse 17, this believing is totally dependent upon God giving us wisdom and revelation so that we can know him better.
How can we know God better, or let God work in us and Christ live in us when the focus is all on "me, me, me?" I'm still learning about these things but I know this short article is wrong, wrong, wrong at least 14 different times! Time to read OldSkool's post again about t
he story of God and his people having always been, is right now, and will always be a love story.
It’s God’s Word that helps us understand the operation of the gift of holy spirit. We can operate the gift God has given us, manifesting power with an impact. We can make things happen! Let’s live a powerful and more abundant life for God.
These last four sentences of TWI’s article are the same old storyline wierwille designed for his ‘ministry’.
I just don’t see that as a biblical imperative for the church. What church? Oh, any church – any part of the body of Christ…so…uhm I guess the church in general going all the way back to its inception. Jesus Christ’s prime directive in Acts 1:8 is actually quite simple:
New International Version But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
New Living Translation But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere—in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Amplified Bible But you will receive power and ability when the Holy Spirit comes upon you; and you will be My witnesses [to tell people about Me] both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the ends of the earth.”
Receiving power from the Holy Spirit enables believers to carry out their mission – telling others about Jesus Christ!
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To reiterate stuff I said in my previous post regarding John 14, 15 and 16, Jesus was talking about the supernatural partnership of the Father, the Holy Spirit and Himself – and most of it appears to be a forward-looking two-pronged approach – pointing to Pentecost and beyond – The Father will reveal Himself in Christ through the Holy Spirit – most Bible scholars understand this prophecy of Jesus as a reference to the New Testament writings:
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you…John 14: 26
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you…John 16: 13 - 15
These passages speak to the ‘teamwork’ of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit to inspire the New Testament writings. Regarding where we are at now as Christians in the 21st century with hardcopies and electronic versions of the Bible - these passages of John also allude to the fundamental interrelationship of how the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit inexplicably work together in each of us to help us better understand / apply Scripture and use our particular gifts to serve others…and in light of Jesus Christ’s prime directive – it’s all about Christ. Telling others about Him… …Bringing others to Him in our evangelizing efforts.It’s not about witnessing for PFAL Today or getting someone signed up for PFAL Today.
TWI continues wierwille’s skewed narrative of uninformed Christians needing to be taught how to operate the holy spirit – “It’s God’s Word that helps us understand the operation of the gift of holy spirit. We can operate the gift God has given us, manifesting power with an impact. We can make things happen! Let’s live a powerful and more abundant life for God.”… Oh really? How did the church ever manage all those years since the 1st century without wierwille’s help?
“We can make things happen!” …oh really? Other than the last session of PFAL when wierwille convinces new students to follow his instructions to move their lips, tongue and mouth and to NOT THINKabout what they’re saying – what other things do TWI-followers and TWI-leaders make happen? You know, you can’t fake miracles and gifts of healing.
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I got involved with TWI in 1974. I was a college student, musician and artist – and being into the counterculture of the time – I bought into the narrative of wierwille being a maverick led by God to get us back to the glories of 1st century. To escape the mental prison of a harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cult like The Way International, I had to take it upon myself to change the narrative…I read a thoughtful article about that today – the article is addressed to stepparents and not cult-survivors – but the process is still the same:
If you think about ‘changing the narrative,’ think about the movie, Jaws. In that movie, everything centers on this predisposed fear around the narrative of sharks and why they’re scary.
Basically, what this means is that our FEAR can be directly linked to our first introduction and mental images of the narrative we’ve been conditioned to believe as true.
Isn’t this the same for family dynamics?
Whatever we’re used to, whatever we’ve been told — that becomes our norm, our narrative. And it all starts with this unhealthy (and sometimes not even true) perspective.
In order to change the perspective, you have to change the narrative.
As a stepparent, I don’t want to be compared, labeled, or seen as anything else other than someone who stepped up and committed to the journey.
Over the past ten years, I have worked so hard to build trust within my family. But I was only successful because I chose to be different in my approach as a stepfather. I wanted to challenge the norm, the narrative, and the way I valued myself.
Once I did that, my entire journey shifted.
That’s my challenge to every stepparent who comes across our page — let’s change the narrative — together.
Just because you’ve heard (or even experienced the ‘evil stepparent’ mindset before doesn’t mean it has to be something that continues.
For the church the narrative should be all about Jesus Christ
Individually, we each have a variety of stories to tell. How we met our significant other. How having kids changed things. How we learned an instrument, a skill, the ups and downs of a career, how we made changes to our belief system – and of course how we escaped a cult. If we’re truthful…honest – changing the narrative is somewhat difficult and tedious – but so much more fulfilling than buying into the make-believe world of wierwille / PFAL.
~ ~ ~ ~
Coming soon to a Grease Spot near you
Part 2: why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated?
See you soon
Edited by T-Bone what's the story with this editor?
Part 2: Why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated?
On the reasons Why PFAL sucks thread, reason # 107 addresses the delusion that wierwille saw himself as the self-appointed distributor of the abilities of the Holy Spirit. From- here where I asked the question why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated?
Excerpts from the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), Whiteside is interviewing wierwille, pages 195ff:
I begin asking Doctor questions, “But what was the event that happened before you led Amil Schaffner into receiving the holy spirit? What happened?”
“I guess that day was the second most important event in my life – after the day that God spoke to me in that old dentist’s office in Payne – the day I received into manifestation the holy spirit and spoke in tongues. I had been searching for years for more understanding of the Word, of the power we have in Christ Jesus. I’d tried all kinds of denominations, all kinds of trips. I’d gone to Pentecostal groups, to all kinds. I can’t remember them all.”
“I had worked all 385 verses in the Bible that spoke of the Holy Spirit. I knew very verse from memory. I had seen in the book of Acts how they spoke in tongues, and I’d gone to every group I’d heard of that I thought might give me more light on it”…
…“ I’d asked the greatest minds, theologians, in the country about receiving the holy spirit. No one could help me. I just knew that all I was seeing was flesh, not spirit.”…
… ”…was the winter of 1951. I flew to Tulsa, checked into the hotel, and went over to where the meeting was that night. It was a big rally. I met someone, told him my need, and he got all excited. He said he’d introduce me to some great men. They’d lay hands on me and lead me into tongues.”
“So before the meeting they got together, nine great men, in one room. They started praying, then three or four laid hands on me, and finally one of them said, ‘Speak another language.’ So, I spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started jumping up and down. They thought it was great. They didn’t know Greek. They said I had received and told me to speak another language.”
“So I did. I spoke in Hebrew – quoted from Genesis, and they just got all excited, congratulating themselves about it.”
“But in my heart, I knew I wasn’t speaking in tongues. You see, they’d just told me to speak in another language.; they never taught me or showed me the accuracy of the Word on this. They said ‘another language’ and I spoke another language.”
“At the big meeting that night one of the men stood up and told the two to three thousand that the had just led an Evangelical and Reformed minister from Van Wert into tongues. He was on an ego trip about it, but I was just sick of the whole thing. Sick of the lying. I knew it was a lie. I was ready to go home.”
“…there was a blizzard in Tulsa…The city was snowbound. I just couldn’t get out!”
…”The next morning, I still hadn’t left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel…a woman came over to me, and said, ‘I think God sent a man here to meet your need. Meet me at 9 a.m.’ I thought, ‘Women never tell the truth.’ But then I reconsidered, since I was stuck in town anyway. So I decided to meet her.”
“I got to the place she said at 9a.m. and there she was. She introduced me to a man named J.E. Stiles. He’d come in from the West Coast. A few days before, God had told him to go to Tulsa to minister the holy spirit to one man. We talked for a few minutes, and he suggested we go into the rally to hear Oral Roberts and then meet for lunch.”
“So that’s what we did. At lunchtime Stiles came in with his wife and the pianist. I just remember thinking to myself, ‘There aren’t going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.’ I was just watching and waiting. Lunch was kind of light talk – we talked about Oral Roberts, the Holy Spirit, lots of stuff. When we were done, I pecked up the check, and then Stiles turned to his wife and said, ‘Honey, I’m going with VP.’ She said something to him like, ‘How long will you be?’ And he said, ‘That’s none of your business.’ That was it, my opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes, just from the way he handled her.”
“We left the women and went up to my room. Stiles began to teach me from Acts 2:1-4, and many other verses…We worked till 3 p.m. Finally, I believed and spoke in tongues. I didn’t know the language. It was like a burning light…”
“You see, learning is a process. You don’t learn overnight. The holy spirit field – that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it."
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
Another thing that stuck out to me was wierwille’s comment “You don’t learn overnight.” That’s true – but in reference to the abilities that the Holy Spirit distributes – nothing needs to be taught. I Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 indicate it’s the Holy Spirit who does the distributing and empowering. Besides that – some other big points of those chapters are that Christians are to do all with the proper attitude and it should be orderly with a view to the benefit of the body of believers in that local church.
And the last paragraph of excerpts exemplifies what a know-it-all cult-leader sounds like. wierwille said “that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it.”
So, why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated? Contrary to what wierwille taught - it’s not!
Study I Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 without the PFAL-filter and leave the rest up to you and the Holy Spirit. That is the simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way. It’s NOT based on self-determination once you learn certain steps, like what wierwille led many to believe…as if a man in-person, in a book or speaking in an audio or video PFAL class could confer on you a supernatural ability or teach you how to exercise it. I Corinthians 12, 13, & 14 address primarily varieties in speaking gifts.
A case can be made that certain of these gifts were limited to the apostolic age to authenticate the apostles and their gospel message. We have God’s written Word - its unique origin, purpose, authority besides being superintended by the Holy Spirit endow it with a self-authenticating feature. The Word of God has authority in itself, and consequently does not rely upon external sources to verify its infallibility; and besides - there are other gifts of the Spirit intended for service:
Just think about this – in PFAL wierwille said “the Word takes the place of the absent Christ”. Wow wee wow! So not only ignore the prime directive (tell others about Christ) let’s pretend the one who issued that directive is not around…The Way International is a pseudo-Christian cult – they sprinkle Jesus Christ’s name here and there like an incompetent cook would try to disguise an unpalatable meal.
That’s all for now, folks
Edited by T-Bone why does editing have to be so complicated?
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you…John 16: 13 - 15
I dont think anyone ever need look any further than these verses to see God has placed Jesus Christ in charge and all things that the Father has belong to Jesus Christ who willingly gives them to us. This prophecy is literally fulfilled in the book of Acts, and in fact, to this very day.
Great posts T-Bone. Give me a little time to respond...awesomeness though! You have my thoughts going in a fw directions.
Part 2: Why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated?
On the reasons Why PFAL sucks thread, reason # 107 addresses the delusion that wierwille saw himself as the self-appointed distributor of the abilities of the Holy Spirit. From- here where I asked the question why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated?
Excerpts from the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), Whiteside is interviewing wierwille, pages 195ff:
I begin asking Doctor questions, “But what was the event that happened before you led Amil Schaffner into receiving the holy spirit? What happened?”
“I guess that day was the second most important event in my life – after the day that God spoke to me in that old dentist’s office in Payne – the day I received into manifestation the holy spirit and spoke in tongues. I had been searching for years for more understanding of the Word, of the power we have in Christ Jesus. I’d tried all kinds of denominations, all kinds of trips. I’d gone to Pentecostal groups, to all kinds. I can’t remember them all.”
“I had worked all 385 verses in the Bible that spoke of the Holy Spirit. I knew very verse from memory. I had seen in the book of Acts how they spoke in tongues, and I’d gone to every group I’d heard of that I thought might give me more light on it”…
…“ I’d asked the greatest minds, theologians, in the country about receiving the holy spirit. No one could help me. I just knew that all I was seeing was flesh, not spirit.”…
… ”…was the winter of 1951. I flew to Tulsa, checked into the hotel, and went over to where the meeting was that night. It was a big rally. I met someone, told him my need, and he got all excited. He said he’d introduce me to some great men. They’d lay hands on me and lead me into tongues.”
“So before the meeting they got together, nine great men, in one room. They started praying, then three or four laid hands on me, and finally one of them said, ‘Speak another language.’ So, I spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started jumping up and down. They thought it was great. They didn’t know Greek. They said I had received and told me to speak another language.”
“So I did. I spoke in Hebrew – quoted from Genesis, and they just got all excited, congratulating themselves about it.”
“But in my heart, I knew I wasn’t speaking in tongues. You see, they’d just told me to speak in another language.; they never taught me or showed me the accuracy of the Word on this. They said ‘another language’ and I spoke another language.”
“At the big meeting that night one of the men stood up and told the two to three thousand that the had just led an Evangelical and Reformed minister from Van Wert into tongues. He was on an ego trip about it, but I was just sick of the whole thing. Sick of the lying. I knew it was a lie. I was ready to go home.”
“…there was a blizzard in Tulsa…The city was snowbound. I just couldn’t get out!”
…”The next morning, I still hadn’t left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel…a woman came over to me, and said, ‘I think God sent a man here to meet your need. Meet me at 9 a.m.’ I thought, ‘Women never tell the truth.’ But then I reconsidered, since I was stuck in town anyway. So I decided to meet her.”
“I got to the place she said at 9a.m. and there she was. She introduced me to a man named J.E. Stiles. He’d come in from the West Coast. A few days before, God had told him to go to Tulsa to minister the holy spirit to one man. We talked for a few minutes, and he suggested we go into the rally to hear Oral Roberts and then meet for lunch.”
“So that’s what we did. At lunchtime Stiles came in with his wife and the pianist. I just remember thinking to myself, ‘There aren’t going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.’ I was just watching and waiting. Lunch was kind of light talk – we talked about Oral Roberts, the Holy Spirit, lots of stuff. When we were done, I pecked up the check, and then Stiles turned to his wife and said, ‘Honey, I’m going with VP.’ She said something to him like, ‘How long will you be?’ And he said, ‘That’s none of your business.’ That was it, my opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes, just from the way he handled her.”
“We left the women and went up to my room. Stiles began to teach me from Acts 2:1-4, and many other verses…We worked till 3 p.m. Finally, I believed and spoke in tongues. I didn’t know the language. It was like a burning light…”
“You see, learning is a process. You don’t learn overnight. The holy spirit field – that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it."
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
Another thing that stuck out to me was wierwille’s comment “You don’t learn overnight.” That’s true – but in reference to the abilities that the Holy Spirit distributes – nothing needs to be taught. I Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 indicate it’s the Holy Spirit who does the distributing and empowering. Besides that – some other big points of those chapters are that Christians are to do all with the proper attitude and it should be orderly with a view to the benefit of the body of believers in that local church.
And the last paragraph of excerpts exemplifies what a know-it-all cult-leader sounds like. wierwille said “that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it.”
So, why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated? Contrary to what wierwille taught - it’s not!
Study I Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 without the PFAL-filter and leave the rest up to you and the Holy Spirit. That is the simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way. It’s NOT based on self-determination once you learn certain steps, like what wierwille led many to believe…as if a man in-person, in a book or speaking in an audio or video PFAL class could confer on you a supernatural ability or teach you how to exercise it. I Corinthians 12, 13, & 14 address primarily varieties in speaking gifts.
A case can be made that certain of these gifts were limited to the apostolic age to authenticate the apostles and their gospel message. We have God’s written Word - its unique origin, purpose, authority besides being superintended by the Holy Spirit endow it with a self-authenticating feature. The Word of God has authority in itself, and consequently does not rely upon external sources to verify its infallibility; and besides - there are other gifts of the Spirit intended for service:
Just think about this – in PFAL wierwille said “the Word takes the place of the absent Christ”. Wow wee wow! So not only ignore the prime directive (tell others about Christ) let’s pretend the one who issued that directive is not around…The Way International is a pseudo-Christian cult – they sprinkle Jesus Christ’s name here and there like an incompetent cook would try to disguise an unpalatable meal.
That’s all for now, folks
Hi T-Bone,
Since receiving the holy spirit is essential for our ability to walk in Christ’s love and power, I believe it is important to understand what Jesus is saying about the spirit of truth in John 14-16. I have broken your previous 3 posts into part (A) and part (B)
A)You’ve used the following words to define a general principle of how the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spiritinexplicably work together:
- Teamwork
- Collaboration
- Fundamental interrelationship
- Supernatural partnership
I am mindful that you used the word 'inexplicably' to describe how the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit work together in each of us. In other words, how the 3 work together is inexplicable - cannot be explained.
B)In reference to I Corinthians 12, 13 & 14, you indicate it’s the Holy Spirit who does the distributing and empowering.You also said to study these chapters without the PFAL-filter and leave the rest up to you and the Holy Spirit.
My questions for each part are:
(A) Since all of the terms used in this part require a relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who is the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit have a distinct existence making it a partnership or team of 3?
(B) Since I Cor 12, 13 & 14 suggest a "working" relationship between the Holy Spirit and a believer,are we to have a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit?
Since receiving the holy spirit is essential for our ability to walk in Christ’s love and power, I believe it is important to understand what Jesus is saying about the spirit of truth in John 14-16. I have broken your previous 3 posts into part (A) and part (B)
A)You’ve used the following words to define a general principle of how the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spiritinexplicably work together:
- Teamwork
- Collaboration
- Fundamental interrelationship
- Supernatural partnership
I am mindful that you used the word 'inexplicably' to describe how the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit work together in each of us. In other words, how the 3 work together is inexplicable - cannot be explained.
B)In reference to I Corinthians 12, 13 & 14, you indicate it’s the Holy Spirit who does the distributing and empowering.You also said to study these chapters without the PFAL-filter and leave the rest up to you and the Holy Spirit.
My questions for each part are:
(A) Since all of the terms used in this part require a relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who is the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit have a distinct existence making it a partnership or team of 3?
(B) Since I Cor 12, 13 & 14 suggest a "working" relationship between the Holy Spirit and a believer,are we to have a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit?
Hi Charity
great questions!
I don’t know if I can provide any definitive or satisfactory answers – all I know is to tell you how I go about it - - for me it’s a journey of self-discovery and connecting with others – driven and guided by thoughtful, prayerful, and practical use of Scripture and other inspiring works.
I don’t mean to be evasive – just being honest – I have no secret formula. I include Grease Spot Café in the connecting with others…In the 16 years that I have been coming here, my belief system has changed quite a bit – and it continues to be a lot more accommodating than when I was in TWI. The Bible and other stimulating books, music and art are essential for my sense of feeling alive, growing, and finding meaning. *I’ve listed a few books at the end that I’ve found helpful along with some hyperlinks for things to think about.
I copied your questions and have them in bold blue font below to distinguish your questions from my answers:
(A)Since all of the terms used in this part require a relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who is the Holy Spirit?
T-Bone’s response: for want of a better term, I would say the Holy Spirit might be considered the ‘workhouse’ of the ‘group’ – in that “the work of the Holy Spirit is to manifest the active presence of God in the world, and especially in the church…He is the one who is most prominently present with us now”, from page 634 of Grudem’s Systematic Theology – * see my list below.
I hesitate to say much about the Holy Spirit – and I’ll probably sound like leaders we’re all familiar with if I give some pat answer like “It’s just a walkto find out who He is” – but it goes along the same lines of your thread How does God work in us – we experience the Holy Spirit in our walk – our day-to-day handling of everything on our plate – and it’s different for everyone. I don’t think you can have a class on how God works in us. Gifts energized by the Spirit may feel like something so easy to do …you might think they come naturally for you – but gifts are supernatural – and evidence of God’s active presence in the world…in the church…through you! Covers a lot of ground.
The ministry presented a very limited palette to work with – take your pick – operate all 9 all the time and maybe you have a couple of gift ministries too…In an earlier post I mentioned passages that widened the scope of possibilities:
There are teachers who not only inform – but connect and inspire their students to learn…there are mental health professionals who do more than learn just academics and protocols – they empathize with their patients...there are people who simply enjoy being of service to others – they love what they do.
Something to think about - reconciling humility with self-worth (*see hyperlinks below) - kinda relates to our journey of self-discovery
~ ~ ~ ~
Does the Holy Spirit have a distinct existence making it a partnership or team of 3?
T-Bone’s response: yes, I believe so – going on how Jesus talked about Him in gospel of John 14, 15, & 16…thus we have a …dare I say it – a Trinity. TWI made that a dirty word. For me it’s just a clumsy attempt to explain something that is incomprehensible.
My two-bit analogy of how ‘the team’ works is as follows:
It seems to me that Jesus Christ is the star of the show. He draws us in. He is relatable. But every song He sings is about His Father. Like Father, like Son!
Ah, but no one usually thinks about the producer (the Holy Spirit). He is responsible for the overall sound of the concert. He supervises everything – makes sure it’s the perfect list of songs appropriate to this particular audience – somehow managing to have the words go right to the heart of someone – and to each and every listener it seems like there’s only two people in this venue – the listener and the singer on stage, Jesus Christ.
~ ~ ~ ~
(B)Since I Cor 12, 13 & 14 suggest a "working" relationship between the Holy Spirit and a believer, are we to have a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit?
T-Bone’s response: That’s a tough question! I never thought about that before…it’s odd that the Bible doesn’t tell us much of how to relate to God or the Holy Spirit – what the Bible shows us is that Christ is the key in all relationships:
New International Version The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Hebrews 1:3
Amplified Bible He is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible], the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation. Colossians 1:15
Therefore, if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
All the books above are a quick read – and I still review them periodically; if going deeper into theology is something of interest, you might want to check out
One of the challenges is what do we replace the collaterals with? There is no “package” of plagiarized material we can offer people in a class format here.
We don’t have the luxury here of 80 years of refining of the Kool Aid snowstorm story so that it then still doesn’t add up and you have to remove the account of it from the bookstore.
This is a prime opportunity for each believer to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.
I do like the direction of thought and development in these posts here with respect to replacing the GP doctrine with something that flows more with the rest of scriptures and includes fellow Christians as opposed to the Kool Aid snowstorm steal material and isolate followers model.
What don’t we have?
A fully assembled McWay drive thru where you can order a McPLAF combo and be on your way to adult onset Spiritual diabetes in 5 minutes.
Nice work on true research - replacing illogic with logic.
I mean Im trying to leave out the obvious that God's power comes with a relationship with Jesus Christ and God...its not something that can be operated.
Yes this direction retains Jesus as Lord in your life as opposed to the ego based anti Christ VPW idolatry.
This direction holds promise for all true seed farmers.
The fake tree of life planters can get lost along with the Mormon missionaries and JW bondage based door knockers and cartoon philosophers in the Watchtower society.
One of the challenges is what do we replace the collaterals with? There is no “package” of plagiarized material we can offer people in a class format here.
We don’t have the luxury here of 80 years of refining of the Kool Aid snowstorm story so that it then still doesn’t add up and you have to remove the account of it from the bookstore.
This is a prime opportunity for each believer to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.
I do like the direction of thought and development in these posts here with respect to replacing the GP doctrine with something that flows more with the rest of scriptures and includes fellow Christians as opposed to the Kool Aid snowstorm steal material and isolate followers model.
What don’t we have?
A fully assembled McWay drive thru where you can order a McPLAF combo and be on your way to adult onset Spiritual diabetes in 5 minutes.
Nice work on true research - replacing illogic with logic.
I've tried to figure out what GP means in previous posts and the best I can come up with is 'general practice.' Can you give me the answer? Thanks!
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Charity
Reading twi's article both was emotionally and physically sickening. It so reinforced the doctrinal and practical errors that robbed believers of having a personal relationship with God and Jesus Chr
Bolshevik
Rocky
Who among you (or us) might be strategic thinkers? Was Victor Wierwille a strategic thinker? (not necessarily a rhetorical question) Is Mike a strategic thinker? (rhetorical questi
OldSkool
I mean Im trying to leave out the obvious that God's power comes with a relationship with Jesus Christ and God...its not something that can be operated.
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waysider
When my son was in about 4th or 5th grade he said, "Hey, Dad, let's build a go-kart." I said, "OK, how will we make it go?" He said, "We'll put an old lawnmower engine on it." "Well, that sounds good", I said. "How will we make the engine turn the wheels?"
So, God, who can only talk to spirit, teaches my spirit, which teaches my .......Hey! Wait a minute!
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cman
Ok, how many spirits is that? And each person has this going on?
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Nathan_Jr
What is immediately obvious to me is the principle was downgraded from GREAT to basic..
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T-Bone
The other day I was reading that article on TWI’s website and noticed that omission too (“…God can only speak to what He is which is spirit…”). But the unspoken 'wierwillian-concept' is the same and touches on some very complicated subjects - which I won’t get into in detail here - other than showing there’s more than one way of addressing how does God work in us - btw Charity started a fascinating thread on that > Here
But anyway …to be brief - the deeper topics to explore when reevaluating the great principle are:
1. The mysterious dynamics of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - the Scriptures suggest they are somehow intertwined - especially in John 14, 15, and 16 and of course in the epistles where all 3 might be referenced in the context certainly hints at an ‘interagency’
~ ~ ~ ~
2. wierwille’s dichotomy of Holy Spirit and holy spirit is highly suspect. wierwille’s misinterpretations and interpolations of I Corinthians 12, 13, and 14 are the mainstay of this erroneous doctrine. this assumes we receive something distinctly separate from God. See trichotomy / dichotomy point below
~ ~ ~ ~
3. wierwille introduced another step in how God works in each believer - exemplified by his egocentric bias of saying I Corinthians 12:11 meant the believer determines what abilities they will “operate” - in other words depending on one’s believing - a person will tend to have a long suit or suits in certain spiritual abilities…that is contrary to the simple idea expressed in passages like Romans 12, Philippians 2:13, I Peter 4:10 where we are encouraged to use whatever gift we’ve received to serve others
Nowhere in Scripture do we find detailed instructions on HOW to ‘operate’ the gift of the ‘holy spirit’ (lower case “h” and “s” to indicate something separate from the Holy Spirit = God) . All Scripture - including I Corinthians 12,13, and 14 have an underlying assumption - we already HAVE certain gifts - the thrust of most passages teach us to have the proper attitude and get busy serving others with those gifts.
~ ~ ~ ~
4. wierwille’s trichotomy of the original true nature of humankind - body, soul, and spirit further obfuscates how God works in us.
Whether one holds to a trichotomy view, or a dichotomy view of humankind is debatable in some circles - personally I don’t get hung up in the concept - since we’re not talking about 'trans-dimensional surgery to separate spirit from matter'
- but rather in the context of evangelizing, counseling and serving we are concerned with the WHOLE person.
I personally lean toward a dichotomy and have gotten into more Scripture on this on other threads:
have a nice day and a happy new year
Edited by T-Boneformatting the obvious
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WordWolf
Part of the problem here was that vpw's pfal was all over the map here.
If you took "Living Victoriously", vpw said, in nearly each session, "There is a time for all things, but there is a thing for all times, and that is" and each time he said that, it was a completely different thing. He seemed to have been trying for a laugh rather than actually trying to impart some useful information. It would not surprise me if he was poking fun at his OWN tendency to blow up his own explanations by changing what things meant.
I mean, if one understands material and then explains it, the explanations all remain consistent- and anything that follows will fit in with the previous explanations. Only people who don't understand something will end up with explanations that don't connect. Naturally, we then have people follow along to connect unrelated concepts and claim all of it was correct. It's like those people who analyzed the Beatles' songs. So the Beatles then did songs like "I Am the Walrus" and watched people try to make sense out of the senseless.
So, in pfal, vpw said that God is Spirit, and that was consistent. But the rest of the sentence changed- "and God can only give that which He is" "and God can only communicate with what He is" and finally we got the chart you mentioned.
To those who are paying attention, it's obvious he was improvising and pretending he understood all that at the time. Naturally, there will always be someone who insisted he was right each time, and somehow all of that actually made sense, and the problem is US.
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OldSkool
Interesting and enlightening. Im thinking this is a fair assessment of VPW. The thing that bakes my noodle, so to speak, is the absolute dishonesty TWI uses with changing, editing, revising, dropping doctrines that VPW set in motion. It is really their tacit agreement that he was saying some wild stuff but they are willing to edit away all the questionable doctrines to endeavor to acheive some sense of acceptance from their disenfranchised followers and modern day Christianity. In the case of The Way Loving in Love they have dropped an entire book and seem to pretend it never existed...giving this particular book because it was loaded with insanity and is obviously an embarrassment to present TWI leadership.
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OldSkool
I went back through and read the chapters in John you mentioned, love that section of scripture btw. Im willing to put forth an idea on how all this works and I feel that wierwille missed the entire boat. Im thinking that the interagency you mentioned T-Bone has everything to do with God's love for us and God redeeming those who will choose to accept Christ as their Lord. It all works along the love of God and is everything to do with a Father and his love for his children, yeah his entire creation John 3:16. So from God to Jesus Christ to those who declare him Lord is the new nature, holy spirit, the mystery, the spirit of sonship that was sent into our hearts that cries Abba Father. In our response we love God back by being obedient to his will, and as we live our lives as witnesses of Jesus Christ, the three agree as one - God, Jesus Christ, Us, his children who have been clothed in holy spirit. Its by the love of God that works in us that we reach out and minister to those in need simply because we love God and it's his will for us to serve each other and love our neighbors as ourselves after we love God with our entire heart, soul, mind, and strength. The story of God and his people has always been, is right now, and will always be a love story. Whether is the love of a Groom for his Bride or the love of a Father for his lost but now found children: Love rules the day.
People like wierwille make the mistake of trying to climb up some other way than the actual Jesus Christ by replacing him with an absent counterfeit that suits their lusts. Instead of love they mistake the power of God as a means to satisfy their lusts for material gain, and I think weve seen that play out with wierille and the way international. They speak of tapping the power of God...they speak of operating the gift, they speak of the new nature as a lever of power to push material gain into their coffers. Instead of love for God and Christ they operate out of a material lust and see God's power as a means to an end. Which is why the very top leadership of the way international DO NOT work miracles, they DO NOT heal the sick, they DO NOT love Gods people the way God would have them to and they especially dishonor God and Jesus Christ by devlaring Christ absent and replacing him with a book that wasnt even printed until 1455.
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OldSkool
Thats an astute observation. So does it become great again in the advanced class? Is it basic in this context because they are just touching on the basic elements of their no-so-great principle? Interesting.
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chockfull
Looking at the article first off who is the author? They seem unwilling to commit a persons name attached to articles.
Are they morphing into “The Watchtower Society” where it is an entity no longer a person writing?
Next the ONLY supporting verses they have are gospel verses for the GP. And they state right there in the article “implies” that it works like that.
It only “implies” that if you accept VPs noun definition which I don’t as it is horky.
I find it disturbing that we can absolutely rule out the dual nature of God, Jesus, HS but we can just accept random capitalizations “as VP was moved by hs”.
If the GP was so great why is it only referenced in an implied fashion in the gospels as opposed to stated clearly in the epistles?
Wheres that OJ pic lol.
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OldSkool
Im thinking that started with the revival and restoration exodus...or maybe it was Rico going to HQ to teach from Florida and telling Rosalie that God told him to tell her that he was to take over the ministry?...Not realy sure but I feel it's related to something around that time frame...
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T-Bone
yup!
~ ~ ~ ~
Revisiting TWI’s article, I think they repeat the same mistake wierwille made of misinterpreting John 14 and 16 as if it applies to ‘operating the holy spirit’ as if Jesus was revealing to us how to control a power that is independent of God. First look at the article:
To see this power in manifestation, we must operate the gift God has given us. But how does it work? God’s Word can help us understand the operation of the gift of holy spirit.
The nine manifestations of holy spirit operate under a basic principle that can be seen in the following verses, which record Jesus Christ prophesying of the gift of holy spirit. Referring to the gift of holy spirit, John 16:13 says, “…for he [it] shall not speak of himself [itself]; but whatsoever he [it] shall hear, that shall he [it] speak….” This implies that your spirit, the gift, hears and learns from God and obeys what He tells it to say. We can see this again in verse 15. Jesus Christ says, “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he [it, the gift of holy spirit] shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” This is the first part of our basic principle—God, Who is Spirit, teaches your spirit.
In John 14, we can see the next part of the principle. Your spirit teaches your mind.
John 14:26:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost [the gift of holy spirit], whom the Father will send in my name, he [it] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
The great principle we see from these verses is that God, Who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then your spiritual power becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act or as you speak out.
https://thewayinternational.com/operating-the-gift-of-holy-spirit/
end of excerpt from TWI's website
~ ~ ~ ~
Now look at the context of the passages in NIV:
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
John 14
~ ~ ~ ~
26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
John 15
~ ~ ~ ~
5 but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”
17 At this, some of his disciples said to one another, “What does he mean by saying, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,’ and ‘Because I am going to the Father’?” 18 They kept asking, “What does he mean by ‘a little while’? We don’t understand what he is saying.”
19 Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this, so he said to them, “Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me’? 20 Very truly I tell you, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy. 21 A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world. 22 So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy. 23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”
29 Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30 Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”
31 “Do you now believe?” Jesus replied. 32 “A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
John 16
~ ~ ~ ~
Jesus talked about the supernatural collaboration of the Father, the Holy Spirit and Himself – and most of it appears to be a forward-looking two-pronged approach – pointing to Pentecost and beyond – The Father will reveal Himself in Christ through the Holy Spirit – in retrospect one can easily see a reference to the New Testament writings:
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you…John 14: 26
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you…John 16: 13 - 15
So, these passages are NOT teaching about ‘the great principle’ of “God who is spirit teaching His creation in you which is now your spirit...& etc.”. These passages specifically speak to the collaboration of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to inspire the New Testament writings.
These passages may also be understood as alluding to a ‘general principle’ of how the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit inexplicably work together in each of us to help us better understand Scripture and use our particular gifts to serve others…wierwille’s egocentrism came up with the concept that we operate the spirit – that we are in control of the holy spirit- he made it out like that’s what Corinthians taught:
9 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
34 Women[f] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[g]
36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.[h]
39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
I Corinthians 14
~ ~ ~ ~
Several study Bibles (* the three I’ve used for this post are listed below) give more background as to some of the problems troubling the Corinthian church. One of the issues was the common knowledge of ecstatic rituals in other religions – Christian believers might expect their experiences to be similar...it would be necessary to distinguish these practices of other religions from the genuine influence of the Holy Spirit – like the Speaking in tongues - Wikipedia practiced by some other religions – often accompanied with trance-like or even wild energetic behavior…In I Corinthians 14 we find Paul stressing that a believer’s behavior is always under self-control and that everything is to be done orderly and appropriately.
~ ~ ~ ~
*Study Bibles I used for this post
NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, Hardcover: Craig Keener, John Walton: 9780310431589 - Christianbook.com
The MacArthur Study Bible, 2nd Edition, NASB - Thomas Nelson Bibles
NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible, Hardcover, Comfort Print: Edited By: D.A. Carson: 9780310450405 - Christianbook.com
that's all for now, folks
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Rocky
Great principle? Is the expression somewhere in the bible?
Nevertheless, radical change can be hard for cultures to accept. Incremental changes, much easier.
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Charity
Reading twi's article both was emotionally and physically sickening. It so reinforced the doctrinal and practical errors that robbed believers of having a personal relationship with God and Jesus Christ.
The gift of holy spirit that we received from God through Christ was changed five times into "your spirit" placing the emphasis on the believer's ownership (as mentioned in #2 above). This negates the "interagency" you spoke of in #1. In John 17:21, Jesus says, "That they (those who believe in him) all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." We know this is only possible because of God's spirit being within the believer.
With regard to #3, the command or exhortation that we "operate the gift" (which is likened to driving a car) is so impersonal but it was stated seven times, as was the number of times that the emphasis was placed on us and not God or Christ. The following phrases were used: when you act or as you speak out (2x), as you decide and believe to do so; as each believer wills or maturely deliberates; by our freewill decision; and it is up to us.
The 7th phrase incorrectly states "God energizes (energeō) the power as we believe and decide to act." This was in reference to Eph 1:19 which says nothing about "as we believe" or "deciding to act." It does say, "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe," but according to verse 17, this believing is totally dependent upon God giving us wisdom and revelation so that we can know him better.
How can we know God better, or let God work in us and Christ live in us when the focus is all on "me, me, me?" I'm still learning about these things but I know this short article is wrong, wrong, wrong at least 14 different times!
Time to read OldSkool's post again about t
he story of God and his people having always been, is right now, and will always be a love story.
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OldSkool
Not once, and AFAIK neither is it a concept utilized across Christendom.
The boiled frog analogy...which wont work but makes a cool analogy. If you increase the heat slowly the frog wont jump out the pot.
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T-Bone
Part 1: What’s the Story?
It’s God’s Word that helps us understand the operation of the gift of holy spirit. We can operate the gift God has given us, manifesting power with an impact. We can make things happen! Let’s live a powerful and more abundant life for God.
Excerpt from The Way International - Operating the Gift of Holy Spirit
~ ~ ~ ~
These last four sentences of TWI’s article are the same old storyline wierwille designed for his ‘ministry’.
I just don’t see that as a biblical imperative for the church. What church? Oh, any church – any part of the body of Christ…so…uhm I guess the church in general going all the way back to its inception. Jesus Christ’s prime directive in Acts 1:8 is actually quite simple:
New International Version
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
New Living Translation
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere—in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Amplified Bible
But you will receive power and ability when the Holy Spirit comes upon you; and you will be My witnesses [to tell people about Me] both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the ends of the earth.”
Receiving power from the Holy Spirit enables believers to carry out their mission – telling others about Jesus Christ!
~ ~ ~ ~
To reiterate stuff I said in my previous post regarding John 14, 15 and 16, Jesus was talking about the supernatural partnership of the Father, the Holy Spirit and Himself – and most of it appears to be a forward-looking two-pronged approach – pointing to Pentecost and beyond – The Father will reveal Himself in Christ through the Holy Spirit – most Bible scholars understand this prophecy of Jesus as a reference to the New Testament writings:
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you…John 14: 26
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you…John 16: 13 - 15
These passages speak to the ‘teamwork’ of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit to inspire the New Testament writings. Regarding where we are at now as Christians in the 21st century with hardcopies and electronic versions of the Bible - these passages of John also allude to the fundamental interrelationship of how the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit inexplicably work together in each of us to help us better understand / apply Scripture and use our particular gifts to serve others…and in light of Jesus Christ’s prime directive – it’s all about Christ. Telling others about Him… …Bringing others to Him in our evangelizing efforts. It’s not about witnessing for PFAL Today or getting someone signed up for PFAL Today.
TWI continues wierwille’s skewed narrative of uninformed Christians needing to be taught how to operate the holy spirit – “It’s God’s Word that helps us understand the operation of the gift of holy spirit. We can operate the gift God has given us, manifesting power with an impact. We can make things happen! Let’s live a powerful and more abundant life for God.”… Oh really? How did the church ever manage all those years since the 1st century without wierwille’s help?
“We can make things happen!” …oh really? Other than the last session of PFAL when wierwille convinces new students to follow his instructions to move their lips, tongue and mouth and to NOT THINK about what they’re saying – what other things do TWI-followers and TWI-leaders make happen? You know, you can’t fake miracles and gifts of healing.
~ ~ ~ ~
I got involved with TWI in 1974. I was a college student, musician and artist – and being into the counterculture of the time – I bought into the narrative of wierwille being a maverick led by God to get us back to the glories of 1st century. To escape the mental prison of a harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cult like The Way International, I had to take it upon myself to change the narrative…I read a thoughtful article about that today – the article is addressed to stepparents and not cult-survivors – but the process is still the same:
If you think about ‘changing the narrative,’ think about the movie, Jaws. In that movie, everything centers on this predisposed fear around the narrative of sharks and why they’re scary.
Basically, what this means is that our FEAR can be directly linked to our first introduction and mental images of the narrative we’ve been conditioned to believe as true.
Isn’t this the same for family dynamics?
Whatever we’re used to, whatever we’ve been told — that becomes our norm, our narrative. And it all starts with this unhealthy (and sometimes not even true) perspective.
In order to change the perspective, you have to change the narrative.
As a stepparent, I don’t want to be compared, labeled, or seen as anything else other than someone who stepped up and committed to the journey.
Over the past ten years, I have worked so hard to build trust within my family. But I was only successful because I chose to be different in my approach as a stepfather. I wanted to challenge the norm, the narrative, and the way I valued myself.
Once I did that, my entire journey shifted.
That’s my challenge to every stepparent who comes across our page — let’s change the narrative — together.
Just because you’ve heard (or even experienced the ‘evil stepparent’ mindset before doesn’t mean it has to be something that continues.
The change starts with you.
From: What Does It Mean To 'Change The Narrative'? - Step By Step Parents
For the church the narrative should be all about Jesus Christ
Individually, we each have a variety of stories to tell. How we met our significant other. How having kids changed things. How we learned an instrument, a skill, the ups and downs of a career, how we made changes to our belief system – and of course how we escaped a cult. If we’re truthful…honest – changing the narrative is somewhat difficult and tedious – but so much more fulfilling than buying into the make-believe world of wierwille / PFAL.
~ ~ ~ ~
Coming soon to a Grease Spot near you
Part 2: why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated?
See you soon
Edited by T-Bonewhat's the story with this editor?
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T-Bone
Part 2: Why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated?
On the reasons Why PFAL sucks thread, reason # 107 addresses the delusion that wierwille saw himself as the self-appointed distributor of the abilities of the Holy Spirit. From - here where I asked the question why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated?
Excerpts from the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), Whiteside is interviewing wierwille, pages 195ff:
I begin asking Doctor questions, “But what was the event that happened before you led Amil Schaffner into receiving the holy spirit? What happened?”
“I guess that day was the second most important event in my life – after the day that God spoke to me in that old dentist’s office in Payne – the day I received into manifestation the holy spirit and spoke in tongues. I had been searching for years for more understanding of the Word, of the power we have in Christ Jesus. I’d tried all kinds of denominations, all kinds of trips. I’d gone to Pentecostal groups, to all kinds. I can’t remember them all.”
“I had worked all 385 verses in the Bible that spoke of the Holy Spirit. I knew very verse from memory. I had seen in the book of Acts how they spoke in tongues, and I’d gone to every group I’d heard of that I thought might give me more light on it”…
…“ I’d asked the greatest minds, theologians, in the country about receiving the holy spirit. No one could help me. I just knew that all I was seeing was flesh, not spirit.”…
… ”…was the winter of 1951. I flew to Tulsa, checked into the hotel, and went over to where the meeting was that night. It was a big rally. I met someone, told him my need, and he got all excited. He said he’d introduce me to some great men. They’d lay hands on me and lead me into tongues.”
“So before the meeting they got together, nine great men, in one room. They started praying, then three or four laid hands on me, and finally one of them said, ‘Speak another language.’ So, I spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started jumping up and down. They thought it was great. They didn’t know Greek. They said I had received and told me to speak another language.”
“So I did. I spoke in Hebrew – quoted from Genesis, and they just got all excited, congratulating themselves about it.”
“But in my heart, I knew I wasn’t speaking in tongues. You see, they’d just told me to speak in another language.; they never taught me or showed me the accuracy of the Word on this. They said ‘another language’ and I spoke another language.”
“At the big meeting that night one of the men stood up and told the two to three thousand that the had just led an Evangelical and Reformed minister from Van Wert into tongues. He was on an ego trip about it, but I was just sick of the whole thing. Sick of the lying. I knew it was a lie. I was ready to go home.”
“…there was a blizzard in Tulsa…The city was snowbound. I just couldn’t get out!”
…”The next morning, I still hadn’t left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel…a woman came over to me, and said, ‘I think God sent a man here to meet your need. Meet me at 9 a.m.’ I thought, ‘Women never tell the truth.’ But then I reconsidered, since I was stuck in town anyway. So I decided to meet her.”
“I got to the place she said at 9a.m. and there she was. She introduced me to a man named J.E. Stiles. He’d come in from the West Coast. A few days before, God had told him to go to Tulsa to minister the holy spirit to one man. We talked for a few minutes, and he suggested we go into the rally to hear Oral Roberts and then meet for lunch.”
“So that’s what we did. At lunchtime Stiles came in with his wife and the pianist. I just remember thinking to myself, ‘There aren’t going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.’ I was just watching and waiting. Lunch was kind of light talk – we talked about Oral Roberts, the Holy Spirit, lots of stuff. When we were done, I pecked up the check, and then Stiles turned to his wife and said, ‘Honey, I’m going with VP.’ She said something to him like, ‘How long will you be?’ And he said, ‘That’s none of your business.’ That was it, my opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes, just from the way he handled her.”
“We left the women and went up to my room. Stiles began to teach me from Acts 2:1-4, and many other verses…We worked till 3 p.m. Finally, I believed and spoke in tongues. I didn’t know the language. It was like a burning light…”
“You see, learning is a process. You don’t learn overnight. The holy spirit field – that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it."
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
Another thing that stuck out to me was wierwille’s comment “You don’t learn overnight.” That’s true – but in reference to the abilities that the Holy Spirit distributes – nothing needs to be taught. I Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 indicate it’s the Holy Spirit who does the distributing and empowering. Besides that – some other big points of those chapters are that Christians are to do all with the proper attitude and it should be orderly with a view to the benefit of the body of believers in that local church.
And the last paragraph of excerpts exemplifies what a know-it-all cult-leader sounds like. wierwille said “that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it.”
So, why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated? Contrary to what wierwille taught - it’s not!
Study I Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 without the PFAL-filter and leave the rest up to you and the Holy Spirit
. That is the simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way. It’s NOT based on self-determination once you learn certain steps, like what wierwille led many to believe…as if a man in-person, in a book or speaking in an audio or video PFAL class could confer on you a supernatural ability or teach you how to exercise it. I Corinthians 12, 13, & 14 address primarily varieties in speaking gifts.
A case can be made that certain of these gifts were limited to the apostolic age to authenticate the apostles and their gospel message. We have God’s written Word - its unique origin, purpose, authority besides being superintended by the Holy Spirit endow it with a self-authenticating feature. The Word of God has authority in itself, and consequently does not rely upon external sources to verify its infallibility; and besides - there are other gifts of the Spirit intended for service:
Romans 12:3-8
I Corinthians 7:7
Ephesians 4:7-16
I Peter 4:11
Just think about this – in PFAL wierwille said “the Word takes the place of the absent Christ”. Wow wee wow! So not only ignore the prime directive (tell others about Christ) let’s pretend the one who issued that directive is not around…The Way International is a pseudo-Christian cult – they sprinkle Jesus Christ’s name here and there like an incompetent cook would try to disguise an unpalatable meal.
That’s all for now, folks
Edited by T-Bonewhy does editing have to be so complicated?
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OldSkool
I dont think anyone ever need look any further than these verses to see God has placed Jesus Christ in charge and all things that the Father has belong to Jesus Christ who willingly gives them to us. This prophecy is literally fulfilled in the book of Acts, and in fact, to this very day.
Great posts T-Bone. Give me a little time to respond...awesomeness though! You have my thoughts going in a fw directions.
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Charity
Hi T-Bone,
Since receiving the holy spirit is essential for our ability to walk in Christ’s love and power, I believe it is important to understand what Jesus is saying about the spirit of truth in John 14-16. I have broken your previous 3 posts into part (A) and part (B)
A) You’ve used the following words to define a general principle of how the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit inexplicably work together:
- Teamwork
- Collaboration
- Fundamental interrelationship
- Supernatural partnership
I am mindful that you used the word 'inexplicably' to describe how the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit work together in each of us. In other words, how the 3 work together is inexplicable - cannot be explained.
B) In reference to I Corinthians 12, 13 & 14, you indicate it’s the Holy Spirit who does the distributing and empowering. You also said to study these chapters without the PFAL-filter and leave the rest up to you and the Holy Spirit.
My questions for each part are:
(A) Since all of the terms used in this part require a relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who is the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit have a distinct existence making it a partnership or team of 3?
(B) Since I Cor 12, 13 & 14 suggest a "working" relationship between the Holy Spirit and a believer, are we to have a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit?
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T-Bone
Hi Charity
great questions!
I don’t know if I can provide any definitive or satisfactory answers – all I know is to tell you how I go about it - - for me it’s a journey of self-discovery and connecting with others – driven and guided by thoughtful, prayerful, and practical use of Scripture and other inspiring works.
I don’t mean to be evasive – just being honest – I have no secret formula. I include Grease Spot Café in the connecting with others…In the 16 years that I have been coming here, my belief system has changed quite a bit – and it continues to be a lot more accommodating than when I was in TWI. The Bible and other stimulating books, music and art are essential for my sense of feeling alive, growing, and finding meaning. *I’ve listed a few books at the end that I’ve found helpful along with some hyperlinks for things to think about.
I copied your questions and have them in bold blue font below to distinguish your questions from my answers:
(A) Since all of the terms used in this part require a relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who is the Holy Spirit?
T-Bone’s response: for want of a better term, I would say the Holy Spirit might be considered the ‘workhouse’ of the ‘group’ – in that “the work of the Holy Spirit is to manifest the active presence of God in the world, and especially in the church…He is the one who is most prominently present with us now”, from page 634 of Grudem’s Systematic Theology – * see my list below.
I hesitate to say much about the Holy Spirit – and I’ll probably sound like leaders we’re all familiar with if I give some pat answer like “It’s just a walk to find out who He is” – but it goes along the same lines of your thread How does God work in us – we experience the Holy Spirit in our walk – our day-to-day handling of everything on our plate – and it’s different for everyone. I don’t think you can have a class on how God works in us. Gifts energized by the Spirit may feel like something so easy to do …you might think they come naturally for you – but gifts are supernatural – and evidence of God’s active presence in the world…in the church…through you! Covers a lot of ground.
The ministry presented a very limited palette to work with – take your pick – operate all 9 all the time and maybe you have a couple of gift ministries too…In an earlier post I mentioned passages that widened the scope of possibilities:
New International Version
if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach…Romans 12:7
There are teachers who not only inform – but connect and inspire their students to learn…there are mental health professionals who do more than learn just academics and protocols – they empathize with their patients...there are people who simply enjoy being of service to others – they love what they do.
Something to think about - reconciling humility with self-worth (* see hyperlinks below) - kinda relates to our journey of self-discovery
~ ~ ~ ~
Does the Holy Spirit have a distinct existence making it a partnership or team of 3?
T-Bone’s response: yes, I believe so – going on how Jesus talked about Him in gospel of John 14, 15, & 16…thus we have a …dare I say it – a Trinity. TWI made that a dirty word. For me it’s just a clumsy attempt to explain something that is incomprehensible.
My two-bit analogy of how ‘the team’ works is as follows:
It seems to me that Jesus Christ is the star of the show. He draws us in. He is relatable. But every song He sings is about His Father. Like Father, like Son!
Ah, but no one usually thinks about the producer (the Holy Spirit). He is responsible for the overall sound of the concert. He supervises everything – makes sure it’s the perfect list of songs appropriate to this particular audience – somehow managing to have the words go right to the heart of someone – and to each and every listener it seems like there’s only two people in this venue – the listener and the singer on stage, Jesus Christ.
~ ~ ~ ~
(B) Since I Cor 12, 13 & 14 suggest a "working" relationship between the Holy Spirit and a believer, are we to have a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit?
T-Bone’s response: That’s a tough question! I never thought about that before…it’s odd that the Bible doesn’t tell us much of how to relate to God or the Holy Spirit – what the Bible shows us is that Christ is the key in all relationships:
New International Version
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Hebrews 1:3
Amplified Bible
He is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible], the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation. Colossians 1:15
Therefore, if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
Philippians 2
~ ~ ~ ~
*helpful books and relevant hyperlinks; note, some books listed are newer editions than the ones I have:
Knowing God (The IVP Signature Collection): Packer, J. I., Vanhoozer, Kevin J.: 9780830848614: Amazon.com: Books
Jesus: Lord & Savior (Jesus Library) by F. F. Bruce (1986-06-21): Amazon.com: Books
Keep in step with the Spirit: J. I Packer: 9780800713829: Amazon.com: Books
Understanding the Bible: John Stott: 9780310414315 - Christianbook.com
All the books above are a quick read – and I still review them periodically; if going deeper into theology is something of interest, you might want to check out
Systematic Theology, Second Edition: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine: Grudem, Wayne A.: 9780274840472: Amazon.com: Books
False Humility | Psychology Today
Reconciling Humility and Self-Worth in the Age of Ego - Ruminate Magazine
What is Cultural Humility? The Basics | Equity and Inclusion (uoregon.edu)
Edited by T-BoneI am come that I might edit more abundantly
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chockfull
One of the challenges is what do we replace the collaterals with? There is no “package” of plagiarized material we can offer people in a class format here.
We don’t have the luxury here of 80 years of refining of the Kool Aid snowstorm story so that it then still doesn’t add up and you have to remove the account of it from the bookstore.
This is a prime opportunity for each believer to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.
I do like the direction of thought and development in these posts here with respect to replacing the GP doctrine with something that flows more with the rest of scriptures and includes fellow Christians as opposed to the Kool Aid snowstorm steal material and isolate followers model.
What don’t we have?
A fully assembled McWay drive thru where you can order a McPLAF combo and be on your way to adult onset Spiritual diabetes in 5 minutes.
Nice work on true research - replacing illogic with logic.
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chockfull
Yes this direction retains Jesus as Lord in your life as opposed to the ego based anti Christ VPW idolatry.
This direction holds promise for all true seed farmers.
The fake tree of life planters can get lost along with the Mormon missionaries and JW bondage based door knockers and cartoon philosophers in the Watchtower society.
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Charity
I've tried to figure out what GP means in previous posts and the best I can come up with is 'general practice.'
Can you give me the 
answer? Thanks! 
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Mike
GP = Great Principle, the topic of this thread.
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