The reasons for purchasing this ThD were to manufacture credibility with his tithing dupes and to maintain a competitive edge among a rising tide of newly-credentialed charlatan preacher men.
Im starting to get the impression from your posts that there was a largish movement in America where guys like wierwille popped up like whack-a-mole. Have you traced any of this back to EW Kenyon and New Though Movement types in the late 1800s early 1900s?
My dear Mike. I suspect there are subconscious reasons why you've posted the same s*** so doggone many times over the last two decades. My view is if you had any writing skill lending itself to credible persuasion, you'd have made your point LONG ago.
In like manner, I suspect those with whom you now so vociferously bicker (I hesitate to call what you do or what those who take your bait do as argumentation) also have some reasons hidden from consciousness.
MOST of what both sides post is nigh on undecipherable. If they have any desire to persuade you, they are as delusional as you are.
Do ANY of you have ANY self-awareness or ability to reflect on what you're doing, i.e. accomplishing nothing except for possibly feeding those subconscious concerns you harbor and act out?
I don't have access to any GSC traffic data to analyze and draw inferences on your influence. But I can't help but figure it all has the ring of tin.
Obviously, I have to look inward also and wonder if I have made any positive impact or influence on any GSC reader's life.
Nevertheless, this is why at this moment, I look for gems that might help people. Bickering ain't gonna get that job done.
Oh, and WHO effin' cares at this point how worthy the vicster may have been to have been considered/called a doctor? He called himself Dr. Wierwille. The vast majority of those who bought his classes, if they are still upright and above ground, have forsaken the entire concept.
How many of them, after having "left the household," suffered imminent calamities? How many went on to live meaningful lives?
Those seem to me to be far more salient questions than the subject of this thread.
Selah. Peace.
Thanks for posting! I responded to Twinky on another thread but I am quoting it here too as it seems relevant.
Just now, OldSkool said:
Thats an interesting question. On one hand if anyone has mental or emotional issues (Im not saying Mike does) trying to verbally beat them into submission is certainly going to crystallize the indefensible as valid in their perspective and heart. On the other hand there is people should be able to discuss their position and if they persist in being overly obnoxious and keep going against the forum rules then those at GSC certainly have every right to hold them accountable....however that occurs may or may not have much of an effect...or even be helpful to the individual.
Personally, I can back off a bit. Maybe try and stick to the material at hand and keep it actual and factual. Perhaps back off on trying to argue minutia and stick to relevance. I cant promise this is going to be an immediate change..but I will do my level best. I appreciate you and Rocky speaking up. Thanks!
My dear Mike. I suspect there are subconscious reasons why you've posted the same s*** so doggone many times over the last two decades. My view is if you had any writing skill lending itself to credible persuasion, you'd have made your point LONG ago.
In like manner, I suspect those with whom you now so vociferously bicker (I hesitate to call what you do or what those who take your bait do as argumentation) also have some reasons hidden from consciousness.
MOST of what both sides post is nigh on undecipherable. If they have any desire to persuade you, they are as delusional as you are.
Do ANY of you have ANY self-awareness or ability to reflect on what you're doing, i.e. accomplishing nothing except for possibly feeding those subconscious concerns you harbor and act out?
I don't have access to any GSC traffic data to analyze and draw inferences on your influence. But I can't help but figure it all has the ring of tin.
Obviously, I have to look inward also and wonder if I have made any positive impact or influence on any GSC reader's life.
Nevertheless, this is why at this moment, I look for gems that might help people. Bickering ain't gonna get that job done.
Oh, and WHO effin' cares at this point how worthy the vicster may have been to have been considered/called a doctor? He called himself Dr. Wierwille. The vast majority of those who bought his classes, if they are still upright and above ground, have forsaken the entire concept.
How many of them, after having "left the household," suffered imminent calamities? How many went on to live meaningful lives?
Those seem to me to be far more salient questions than the subject of this thread.
Selah. Peace.
The reasons I respond to Mike I stated on other thread. If you find confronting the same things for 2 decades plus tedious because there are never any new arguments, then as the most prolific poster on this site over its history I would support you in seeking a ban on the troll.
No I don’t think leaving him alone would accomplish anything other than for him to claim a moral victory in all of his Facebook groups where he straddles the fence. And silence any doubters who might have looked here.
The other thing I would support is digging down into the idol logic. Worship of an idol is a combination of proximity and laziness of mind.
Every time I try to break it down past the barrier of “the collaterals” it never goes anywhere except back up to that generic statement about believing “the collaterals” were God breathed.
What part? How? Can the component parts be handled? No they can’t. We have discussed MANY component parts of collaterals, like CSBP, TDNC why division, and RHST but it never goes anywhere except back up to the blanket statement that somehow “the collaterals “ were God breathed.
Well if so, then it wouldn’t fall apart upon closer investigation now would it?
That golden calf image is so huge that Mike can’t even see stealing being wrong in the 10 commandments.
Proverbs 26:4,5 highlight the dilemma in responding to Mike or not responding to Mike.
I have been objectively investigating the movement of religious hucksters for a few years. Religious hucksters have been around for millennia, but a movement emerged out of the evangelical/fundamentalist/Pentecostal tide that was rising in early 20th century America. By mid 20th century, this movement was reaching a crescendo.
Every Tom, Dick and Uncle Harry's brother was eager to catch a wave on this storm surge. Unaccredited huckster diploma mills started popping up all over the country to meet a new demand for religious credentials. Most of these "seminaries" offered only correspondent courses. The "course work" was, well, Mickey Mouse. The most important criterion for "earning" a degree was a check that cleared the bank.
These huckster degree mills folded as quickly as they ascended. Most do not exist today. It was a cash grab. For everyone.
Pikes Peak was one of these short lived huckster diploma mills.
Don't take my word for it. Find out for yourself.
13 hours ago, OldSkool said:
Im studying this one as well. It traces back to Westcott-Hort, John Nelson Darby, Cyrus Ingram Scofield and onward from there. Occultic ideas were slowly infused into Christianity and Wierwille rode that tide and so did I and thankfully I am out and fully forgiven.
For anyone interested, I just started a thread in doctrinal to carry this topic further:
To be clear I am going into this study assuming from previous studies that Darby was the main catalyst for many modern day fundamentalist/occultic doctrines that eventuall spawned degree mills and led to hucksters like victor paul wierwille, with wierwille being pretty much a minion of more influential people in this movement. We shall see if my assumptions remain correct and what changes based on objective evidence.
My dear Mike. I suspect there are subconscious reasons why you've posted the same s*** so doggone many times over the last two decades. My view is if you had any writing skill lending itself to credible persuasion, you'd have made your point LONG ago.
In like manner, I suspect those with whom you now so vociferously bicker (I hesitate to call what you do or what those who take your bait do as argumentation) also have some reasons hidden from consciousness.
MOST of what both sides post is nigh on undecipherable. If they have any desire to persuade you, they are as delusional as you are.
I am noticing a pattern in your posting to me, where you always prominently include a condemnation of my writing skills. I think there may be a subconscious connection there to the questions you have about the posting motivation of the active posters here. We shall see. I may have found a connection, and I bring it up below.
*/*/*/*/*
Why do I post?I mentioned the other day how unique and large a group of grads this is. I will now build on that a bit. I see my a very sizable family of grads congregating here, hurt with all sorts of confusions. I feel lucky to have escaped most damage, and feel it a duty to speak up where I see people missing the good that we were involved in.
I see the regular posters here, and a large fraction of the ROA, as hurting and confused. I want to help. Up until the recent local activities of TWI-4 this past year, GreaseSpot was the only place to go and find refugees from the 1986 meltdown. I consider TWI-4 to be a group of refugees from that meltdown as well as all the people here.
The whole debacle of what went wrong, what went right, and what to do about it has never been settled. No one has ministered to this state of complete confusion I see all grads in.
I saw in 2002 that there was no proPFAL voice to balance the antiPFAL voices here, and I saw that there were no prpPFAL leaders in TWI-3, nor in the splinters who had the ability or willingness to face you antiPFAL folks here.I post because no one else wants to or can do it with effectiveness.
It took courage to post here and become a bad guy in so many intense eyes.I had some valid concerns.I was threatened a few times in my early years, but thankfully the mods got a handle on that.Once Pawtucket called me on the phone to warn me that someone was stalking me on the board.There were a few times in those early years where I would peek out my window at the parking lot and street below for strange cars lurking. I prayed for my safety.What I post seriously rocks unstable boats. I am unhappy that no one else, no better writers, came here to offer some positive balance to all the negative talk. I do it because no one else seems to have the courage.
*/*/*/*/*/*
Which brings me back to my writing skills.I wish I had the time to do a few proofreads and even “sleeping on it” for a near final draft before posting. But the furious posting pace that often occurs, means rushed and never properly proofed drafts are often posted by me prematurely.
So if you add the rushed atmosphere in which I write to my inherently poor skills, that should result in totally ineffective posts that no one pays any attention to. But that is not the result we see, over and over.
I think it is the case that I am SO CORRECT and on the right path, that even my poorly written posts are taken as a severe threat to the message of Bad News about the pure evil VPW, the anti-idol.
What I post is a serious and deadly challenge to the pure evil anti-idol that is desired here. The anti-idol is a house of cards, and is severely threatened by any bringing up of the missing facts, even by a poorly written bringing up.
This is why chockful openly calls for my being banned.
He just can take the humiliation of being reminded that the anti-idol is a lie, and that is what my posts do.They also remind the ROA that the actors on this stage have a muddy message to preach. All the nasty tactics of the Nazi Way Corps manipulation chockful kept for future use, he uses on me to try and discourage me from threatening his precious anti-idol that he loves to hate.
I could tell that he was getting desperate the other day when he pulled out his “pedophile card” and tried his nazi best to nail me with a “cringe” hunch.Shades of “God just told me your heart was wrong.”Then, he realized he went too far and tried to deny it.So, now he pursues his need to have me off his case, and resorts to asking for me being banned. Is that how cowards behave? The old waycorpse nazi can’t change his spots.
*/*/*/*/*/*
So, Rocky, in all your consternation over why people respond to me, have you noticed what happens when I am not posting?
I read here a lot, and there have been seasons where I wasn’t posting at all.In the past 5 years or so, I have noticed a pattern where the posting traffic in “About the Way” is way down to near zero when I am not posting.Then I start posting and the traffic goes up. Yes, when an event like RnR happens, that fuels some activity.... for a little while, and then it is down to a trickle again.
I get the impression that I can turn on the traffic like a switch.
I may be TOTALLY WRONG about this pattern, as I have not kept any hard statistics.But it does seem to be the case that when I stop posting, the traffic stops.
If I am correct about this pattern, I have a theory as to why it happens.
The traffic was extremely high here 20 years ago. But by 2015 most of the stories had been told, most of the grads from TWI-1 heard all the dirt and there were less, and less of the victim stories as TWI-3 made things calm down from the frenzy that surrounded Craig.
Things got pretty boring for posters here.There is hardly anything left to post on…..until Mike starts posting again.Then it’s exciting again to come here day after day to try some new tactic to shut me up.
So, Rocky,I think the reasons people post when I post is twofold:(1) posters are bored and have run out of things to post on, and (2) when I post, the points I make are VERY DISTURBING to the anti-idol maintenance. That pumps up the energy to post long, hard, and often to defeat my poorly written, but still way too effective, posting.
The reasons for purchasing this ThD were to manufacture credibility with his tithing dupes and to maintain a competitive edge among a rising tide of newly-credentialed charlatan preacher men.
I bet the fact that a ThD is considered an advanced research degree also was a ploy to reinforce the whole Biblical research schtik. But as it's been noted many times, the entire way tree structure was always about generating income as was wierwille.
Because several items on this seem to have slipped out of memory of a few posters, I thought I'd post it again with some highlights.
This was originally posted by Research Geek October 04, 2002:
I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters at Princeton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary.
I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class. My wife and I searched for the place and found it when we visited Colorado. We drove up to it on a hill and were looking at the building when the owner of the house came out. We said hi and explained what we were doing and he invited us in and showed us around.
The owner said that indeed the Seminary operated out of that building and even showed us a picture of the place years ago taken from across the valley. It was in a frame and mounted on the wall. The owner said that it was a condition of the house purchase agreement that the picture remain with the building. We took photos and showed them to vpw. He remembered the picture on the wall.
The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary utilized an "experimental" kind of education method. Because of that, its coursework was not accepted by many other institutions.
vpw did put in the time and did get a doctors degree.
But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in and get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize.
I think that he kept the title obstinately, in spite of the criticism because he had done the work and put in the time. Unfortunately for him, he chose the wrong institution for the effort.
So it was not a lie. He believed that he had earned the title. Perhaps his decision to go was unwise. I think that if I was going to put in the effort, I would have chosen an institution with better credentials.
Because several items on this seem to have slipped out of memory of a few posters, I thought I'd post it again with some highlights.
This was originally posted by Research Geek October 04, 2002:
I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters at Princeton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary.
I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class. My wife and I searched for the place and found it when we visited Colorado. We drove up to it on a hill and were looking at the building when the owner of the house came out. We said hi and explained what we were doing and he invited us in and showed us around.
The owner said that indeed the Seminary operated out of that building and even showed us a picture of the place years ago taken from across the valley. It was in a frame and mounted on the wall. The owner said that it was a condition of the house purchase agreement that the picture remain with the building. We took photos and showed them to vpw. He remembered the picture on the wall.
The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary utilized an "experimental" kind of education method. Because of that, its coursework was not accepted by many other institutions.
vpw did put in the time and did get a doctors degree.
But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in and get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize.
I think that he kept the title obstinately, in spite of the criticism because he had done the work and put in the time. Unfortunately for him, he chose the wrong institution for the effort.
So it was not a lie. He believed that he had earned the title. Perhaps his decision to go was unwise. I think that if I was going to put in the effort, I would have chosen an institution with better credentials.
Repeating the same secondhand account does not make my firsthand account and research any less valid no matter how many times you put it on a loop.
What actually happened is I asked a 14 year old girl how that paragraph you wrote sounded and she said
”whoa that’s total cringe”
First of all, I did not write that with modern teeny boppers in mind. It was addressed to adults. Did you read to her the other reports here of the casual sex in the dorms? Think she might cringe at what you and others posted there, addressing adults?
Second of all, even your mitigated re-regurgitated post still has that old Corps trick that promises to relieve your desperation. So now, instead of implying "God it telling me that your heart is not right, Mike" now your desperate ad hominem way of dispensing with my facts and logic is to say "My expert consultant is telling me your heart is not right, Mike." And when that doesn't work you resort to Putin's strategy, wanting to throw me out the window. I must be posting things that are difficult for you to bear. You look desperate to me.
MIKE! SHUT UP! You are defending YOUR indefensible. YOU started this spat; please discontinue.
In fact, didn't you somewhere in your spattergun posts promise to stop calling people Nazi Corps? Your entire post above is to insult Chocky, who pointed out YOUR naff post. So now you insult everything he wrote and writes. Everyone's getting just a bit tired of this.
As you may well have been told as a child: Be polite, or be quiet. If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing.
Because several items on this seem to have slipped out of memory of a few posters, I thought I'd post it again with some highlights.
This was originally posted by Research Geek October 04, 2002:
I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters at Princeton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary.
I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class. My wife and I searched for the place and found it when we visited Colorado. We drove up to it on a hill and were looking at the building when the owner of the house came out. We said hi and explained what we were doing and he invited us in and showed us around.
The owner said that indeed the Seminary operated out of that building and even showed us a picture of the place years ago taken from across the valley. It was in a frame and mounted on the wall. The owner said that it was a condition of the house purchase agreement that the picture remain with the building. We took photos and showed them to vpw. He remembered the picture on the wall.
The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary utilized an "experimental" kind of education method. Because of that, its coursework was not accepted by many other institutions.
vpw did put in the time and did get a doctors degree.
But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in and get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize.
I think that he kept the title obstinately, in spite of the criticism because he had done the work and put in the time. Unfortunately for him, he chose the wrong institution for the effort.
So it was not a lie. He believed that he had earned the title. Perhaps his decision to go was unwise. I think that if I was going to put in the effort, I would have chosen an institution with better credentials.
Mike seems to think we've forgotten that five years ago, this paper was torn apart line by line and word by word and exposed for how unobjective it really is.
For those interested here's a blast from the past, presenting that critique.
The fun starts here:
On 1/5/2018 at 9:30 PM, Mike said:
This is one of the more “on topic” posts of mine here. Part of the book on VPW should include this item for balance.
I finally found one of my “re-post pastes” of Research Geek’s post on Pikes Peak and VBPW’s degree. The thread he posted this on is now lost due to bandwidth issues over 10 years ago. But I can assure you my re-posts were totally accurate. If they weren’t, back then they would have been torn apart immediately on my posting. They weren’t.
For me, I’ve said theology degrees awarded to anyone mean almost nothing to me. I have great respect for the hard core degrees like Math and Physics, but it drops for humanities degrees. I just don’t care much, and never did.
For me, VPW did earn that degree as much as any other minister or priest, and I happily called him Doctor Wierwille all the time, BASED ON his performance for me and my needs. I need not check out his degree any more than that for my own interests.
But Research Geek did investigated that degree by going to Pikes Peak and checking out the record. He was one of the very few posters back then that seem to have done this kind of thing, not shoot from the hip, but investigate objectively. Others here will dig for dirt, but miss the gold. He was very respected by all here (me included) as fair minded and smart.
Originally posted by Research Geek October 04, 2002 with my bold fonts:
***
“I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters at Princeton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary. I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class. My wife and I searched for the place and found it when we visited Colorado. We drove up to it on a hill and were looking at the building when the owner of the house came out. We said hi and explained what we were doing and he invited us in and showed us around. The owner said that indeed the Seminary operated out of that building and even showed us a picture of the place years ago taken from across the valley. It was in a frame and mounted on the wall. The owner said that it was a condition of the house purchase agreement that the picture remain with the building. We took photos and showed them to vpw. He remembered the picture on the wall.
“The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary utilized an "experimental" kind of education method. Because of that, its coursework was not accepted by many other institutions. vpw did put in the time and did get a doctors degree. But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in and get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize. I think that he kept the title obstinately, in spite of the criticism because he had done the work and put in the time. Unfortunately for him, he chose the wrong institution for the effort.
“So it was not a lie. He believed that he had earned the title. Perhaps his decision to go was unwise. I think that if I was going to put in the effort, I would have chosen an institution with better credentials.”
***
VPW not only earned his doctorate, but he performed far beyond what any PhD has ever done. He brought us God's light like it hasn't been seen in 2000 years. In my book that earns him credit far beyond a doctorate.
Continue reading the thread to get the scoop on all the errors in the paper.
No I don’t think leaving him alone would accomplish anything other than for him to claim a moral victory in all of his Facebook groups where he straddles the fence.
And would allowing him to claim a moral victory harm you or anyone else in any tangible way?
Might that in some way incentivize him to stop with the endless nonsensical posting?
First of all, I did not write that with modern teeny boppers in mind. It was addressed to adults. Did you read to her the other reports here of the casual sex in the dorms? Think she might cringe at what you and others posted there, addressing adults?
Second of all, even your mitigated re-regurgitated post still has that old Corps trick that promises to relieve your desperation. So now, instead of implying "God it telling me that your heart is not right, Mike" now your desperate ad hominem way of dispensing with my facts and logic is to say "My expert consultant is telling me your heart is not right, Mike." And when that doesn't work you resort to Putin's strategy, wanting to throw me out the window. I must be posting things that are difficult for you to bear. You look desperate to me.
No she has zero interest in reading this site.
But like anything else I say there is some twisted way you’re going to interpret it.
Between ad hominem and Putin puhleeeeease.
I asked the “like ten” active posters on here if they would prefer a rest from your drivel, as it is nonstop and has not gotten less delusional or changed in any fashion for over 20 years.
Mitigated regurgitated - are you really that twisted up in the membrane?
What am I desperate for? A rest from bullshonta? Sure I can agree to that. I only brought it up after everyone is saying how tired they are of it.
I may be TOTALLY WRONG about this pattern, as I have not kept any hard statistics.But it does seem to be the case that when I stop posting, the traffic stops.
Doesn't matter if you're right or if you're wrong.
If you're correct, however, wouldn't it be cause for you owing the owner of the website much more than a one-time $50 donation... to cover the cost of the traffic?
And would allowing him to claim a moral victory harm you or anyone else in any tangible way?
Might that in some way incentivize him to stop with the endless nonsensical posting?
So we are holding the site hostage to incentivize a troll?
Don’t anger the troll as an incentive?
Why would instead of that a ban or a temp ban not be more in the sites interest?
Actually personally I’ve left here for a while. I would probably do that over incentivizing a troll with the choice of censoring what I say here regarding VPW idolatry.
Why would instead of that a ban or a temp ban not be more in the sites interest?
Doing so likely would be much more effective.
In words Mike no doubt heard in Vic's voice countless times 40+ years ago: a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
If posters were to allow him to claim victory, whether any reader were to be convinced by him or not, wouldn't that completely mitigate his motivation for posting here?
If posters were to allow him to claim victory, whether any reader were to be convinced by him or not, wouldn't that completely mitigate his motivation for posting here?
I’m sorry I didn’t understand if there is a request in there for me.
I guess my reply to Mike in general would be if the idea of melting down actual statues of VPW that actually exist in actual lobbies of buildings and actually on leaders desks you need to attack so hard with multiple pages of content non stop in every topic thread and make up some kind of new BS term called “anti idol” with hate attached, maybe I’m really on to something. I mean it certainly is blinding to the heart of the stealing and lying commandments.
Did victor ever rewrite his dissertation for a general audience? I know scholars will occasionally do this. A dissertation is a scholarly book written for a scholarly audience -- it's highly technical and won't fit on a 3x5 card. Has anyone ever read victor's dissertation?
I seem to remember James Tabor talking about a book that was essentially an expansion and rewrite of his dissertation, but written for a general audience. (I can't remember which book. It may be his latest Paul's Ascent to Paradise or else The Jesus Dynasty.)
First off, I have been an terrible example of what I am about to post, sometime knowing what to do and doing are two...yeah..well...The way to deal with most any internet troll is to ignore the shenanigans and stay on topic in spite of them. If they have on topic contributions that are more than something as crazy as weve seen posted lately then respond. If its just the same ole obvious button pushing then either ignore it or say your peace and keep it moving back on topic. Im not saying dont ever respond either, thats an individual choice. I dont think banning Mike is the way to go, if for no other reason than I would rather deal with his voice of dissent than stifle it simply because thats what TWI would do, and Im not directing anything at you Chockful cause Im sympathetic to how yo feel. Banning someone who doesnt follow forum rules is a common practice. Personally, and my opinion means squat in the scheme of things, but personally - I like that mike comes in with his point of view and we can respond logically, with facts and resources that prove whatever the positions are and he can be as crazy as he wants...except the crazier he gets the more it shows the end results of wierwilles doctrines. Like I say, someone like Mike who posts all the uncomfortable history that the way international wants to silence is actually working against all things pfal and the way international, so let him have at it.
Im sure from Rafs, or any other mods point of view, if we are engaging in the same shenanigans that mike brings to the table then we are just as culpable as mike in dragging the forums all over the place. Not only that I wouldnt want a mod silencing anything I had to say here on GSC and we would be forcing them to choose sides where they likely should remain objective and uninvolved with doctrinal content unless said content is egregiously harmful. My 2 cents.
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waysider
I guess I just don't understand why he would even need this degree, seeing as how God gave him access to all the secrets of the universe anyhow.
waysider
Allow me to state this in the simplest way possible,. This statement is simply false. Error after error after error has been scrutinized here. Thread upon thread upon thread has dissected these errors
chockfull
It would mean they came to the truth of the realization that worshipping an idol of VPW is not a viable future for a Christian ministry. It would mean they discarded the old wineskin and were fre
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OldSkool
Im starting to get the impression from your posts that there was a largish movement in America where guys like wierwille popped up like whack-a-mole. Have you traced any of this back to EW Kenyon and New Though Movement types in the late 1800s early 1900s?
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OldSkool
Thanks for posting! I responded to Twinky on another thread but I am quoting it here too as it seems relevant.
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chockfull
The reasons I respond to Mike I stated on other thread. If you find confronting the same things for 2 decades plus tedious because there are never any new arguments, then as the most prolific poster on this site over its history I would support you in seeking a ban on the troll.
No I don’t think leaving him alone would accomplish anything other than for him to claim a moral victory in all of his Facebook groups where he straddles the fence. And silence any doubters who might have looked here.
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chockfull
The other thing I would support is digging down into the idol logic. Worship of an idol is a combination of proximity and laziness of mind.
Every time I try to break it down past the barrier of “the collaterals” it never goes anywhere except back up to that generic statement about believing “the collaterals” were God breathed.
What part? How? Can the component parts be handled? No they can’t. We have discussed MANY component parts of collaterals, like CSBP, TDNC why division, and RHST but it never goes anywhere except back up to the blanket statement that somehow “the collaterals “ were God breathed.
Well if so, then it wouldn’t fall apart upon closer investigation now would it?
That golden calf image is so huge that Mike can’t even see stealing being wrong in the 10 commandments.
Proverbs 26:4,5 highlight the dilemma in responding to Mike or not responding to Mike.
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OldSkool
For anyone interested, I just started a thread in doctrinal to carry this topic further:
To be clear I am going into this study assuming from previous studies that Darby was the main catalyst for many modern day fundamentalist/occultic doctrines that eventuall spawned degree mills and led to hucksters like victor paul wierwille, with wierwille being pretty much a minion of more influential people in this movement. We shall see if my assumptions remain correct and what changes based on objective evidence.
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Mike
I am noticing a pattern in your posting to me, where you always prominently include a condemnation of my writing skills. I think there may be a subconscious connection there to the questions you have about the posting motivation of the active posters here. We shall see. I may have found a connection, and I bring it up below.
*/*/*/*/*
Why do I post? I mentioned the other day how unique and large a group of grads this is. I will now build on that a bit. I see my a very sizable family of grads congregating here, hurt with all sorts of confusions. I feel lucky to have escaped most damage, and feel it a duty to speak up where I see people missing the good that we were involved in.
I see the regular posters here, and a large fraction of the ROA, as hurting and confused. I want to help. Up until the recent local activities of TWI-4 this past year, GreaseSpot was the only place to go and find refugees from the 1986 meltdown. I consider TWI-4 to be a group of refugees from that meltdown as well as all the people here.
The whole debacle of what went wrong, what went right, and what to do about it has never been settled. No one has ministered to this state of complete confusion I see all grads in.
I saw in 2002 that there was no proPFAL voice to balance the antiPFAL voices here, and I saw that there were no prpPFAL leaders in TWI-3, nor in the splinters who had the ability or willingness to face you antiPFAL folks here. I post because no one else wants to or can do it with effectiveness.
It took courage to post here and become a bad guy in so many intense eyes. I had some valid concerns. I was threatened a few times in my early years, but thankfully the mods got a handle on that. Once Pawtucket called me on the phone to warn me that someone was stalking me on the board. There were a few times in those early years where I would peek out my window at the parking lot and street below for strange cars lurking. I prayed for my safety. What I post seriously rocks unstable boats. I am unhappy that no one else, no better writers, came here to offer some positive balance to all the negative talk. I do it because no one else seems to have the courage.
*/*/*/*/*/*
Which brings me back to my writing skills. I wish I had the time to do a few proofreads and even “sleeping on it” for a near final draft before posting. But the furious posting pace that often occurs, means rushed and never properly proofed drafts are often posted by me prematurely.
So if you add the rushed atmosphere in which I write to my inherently poor skills, that should result in totally ineffective posts that no one pays any attention to. But that is not the result we see, over and over.
I think it is the case that I am SO CORRECT and on the right path, that even my poorly written posts are taken as a severe threat to the message of Bad News about the pure evil VPW, the anti-idol.
What I post is a serious and deadly challenge to the pure evil anti-idol that is desired here. The anti-idol is a house of cards, and is severely threatened by any bringing up of the missing facts, even by a poorly written bringing up.
This is why chockful openly calls for my being banned.
He just can take the humiliation of being reminded that the anti-idol is a lie, and that is what my posts do. They also remind the ROA that the actors on this stage have a muddy message to preach. All the nasty tactics of the Nazi Way Corps manipulation chockful kept for future use, he uses on me to try and discourage me from threatening his precious anti-idol that he loves to hate.
I could tell that he was getting desperate the other day when he pulled out his “pedophile card” and tried his nazi best to nail me with a “cringe” hunch. Shades of “God just told me your heart was wrong.” Then, he realized he went too far and tried to deny it. So, now he pursues his need to have me off his case, and resorts to asking for me being banned. Is that how cowards behave? The old waycorpse nazi can’t change his spots.
*/*/*/*/*/*
So, Rocky, in all your consternation over why people respond to me, have you noticed what happens when I am not posting?
I read here a lot, and there have been seasons where I wasn’t posting at all. In the past 5 years or so, I have noticed a pattern where the posting traffic in “About the Way” is way down to near zero when I am not posting. Then I start posting and the traffic goes up. Yes, when an event like RnR happens, that fuels some activity.... for a little while, and then it is down to a trickle again.
I get the impression that I can turn on the traffic like a switch.
I may be TOTALLY WRONG about this pattern, as I have not kept any hard statistics. But it does seem to be the case that when I stop posting, the traffic stops.
If I am correct about this pattern, I have a theory as to why it happens.
The traffic was extremely high here 20 years ago. But by 2015 most of the stories had been told, most of the grads from TWI-1 heard all the dirt and there were less, and less of the victim stories as TWI-3 made things calm down from the frenzy that surrounded Craig.
Things got pretty boring for posters here. There is hardly anything left to post on….. until Mike starts posting again. Then it’s exciting again to come here day after day to try some new tactic to shut me up.
So, Rocky, I think the reasons people post when I post is twofold: (1) posters are bored and have run out of things to post on, and (2) when I post, the points I make are VERY DISTURBING to the anti-idol maintenance. That pumps up the energy to post long, hard, and often to defeat my poorly written, but still way too effective, posting.
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OldSkool
I bet the fact that a ThD is considered an advanced research degree also was a ploy to reinforce the whole Biblical research schtik. But as it's been noted many times, the entire way tree structure was always about generating income as was wierwille.
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Mike
Because several items on this seem to have slipped out of memory of a few posters, I thought I'd post it again with some highlights.
This was originally posted by Research Geek October 04, 2002:
I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters at Princeton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary.
I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class. My wife and I searched for the place and found it when we visited Colorado. We drove up to it on a hill and were looking at the building when the owner of the house came out. We said hi and explained what we were doing and he invited us in and showed us around.
The owner said that indeed the Seminary operated out of that building and even showed us a picture of the place years ago taken from across the valley. It was in a frame and mounted on the wall. The owner said that it was a condition of the house purchase agreement that the picture remain with the building. We took photos and showed them to vpw. He remembered the picture on the wall.
The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary utilized an "experimental" kind of education method. Because of that, its coursework was not accepted by many other institutions.
vpw did put in the time and did get a doctors degree.
But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in and get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize.
I think that he kept the title obstinately, in spite of the criticism because he had done the work and put in the time. Unfortunately for him, he chose the wrong institution for the effort.
So it was not a lie. He believed that he had earned the title. Perhaps his decision to go was unwise. I think that if I was going to put in the effort, I would have chosen an institution with better credentials.
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Twinky
Nobody is confused but you, Mike. Sad when your rose-coloured PFAL glasses are so cloudy that you can't separate truth from error.
The rest of us took off those glasses long ago and have been gaining improved vision ever since.
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chockfull
Repeating the same secondhand account does not make my firsthand account and research any less valid no matter how many times you put it on a loop.
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chockfull
No Mike BS again no pedo card was pulled.
What actually happened is I asked a 14 year old girl how that paragraph you wrote sounded and she said
”whoa that’s total cringe”
What a Nazi Corps thing for me to do.
You must be struggling with your inner self or something.
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Mike
First of all, I did not write that with modern teeny boppers in mind. It was addressed to adults. Did you read to her the other reports here of the casual sex in the dorms? Think she might cringe at what you and others posted there, addressing adults?
Second of all, even your mitigated re-regurgitated post still has that old Corps trick that promises to relieve your desperation. So now, instead of implying "God it telling me that your heart is not right, Mike" now your desperate ad hominem way of dispensing with my facts and logic is to say "My expert consultant is telling me your heart is not right, Mike." And when that doesn't work you resort to Putin's strategy, wanting to throw me out the window. I must be posting things that are difficult for you to bear. You look desperate to me.
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Twinky
MIKE! SHUT UP! You are defending YOUR indefensible. YOU started this spat; please discontinue.
In fact, didn't you somewhere in your spattergun posts promise to stop calling people Nazi Corps? Your entire post above is to insult Chocky, who pointed out YOUR naff post. So now you insult everything he wrote and writes. Everyone's getting just a bit tired of this.
As you may well have been told as a child: Be polite, or be quiet. If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing.
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Twinky
And now, you'll probably have a go at me.
You need your bottom spanking. Leastways, that would have happened, if anyone I knew as a kid who acted like you, would have got.
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So_crates
Mike seems to think we've forgotten that five years ago, this paper was torn apart line by line and word by word and exposed for how unobjective it really is.
For those interested here's a blast from the past, presenting that critique.
The fun starts here:
Continue reading the thread to get the scoop on all the errors in the paper.
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Rocky
And would allowing him to claim a moral victory harm you or anyone else in any tangible way?
Might that in some way incentivize him to stop with the endless nonsensical posting?
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chockfull
No she has zero interest in reading this site.
But like anything else I say there is some twisted way you’re going to interpret it.
Between ad hominem and Putin puhleeeeease.
I asked the “like ten” active posters on here if they would prefer a rest from your drivel, as it is nonstop and has not gotten less delusional or changed in any fashion for over 20 years.
Mitigated regurgitated - are you really that twisted up in the membrane?
What am I desperate for? A rest from bullshonta? Sure I can agree to that. I only brought it up after everyone is saying how tired they are of it.
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Rocky
Doesn't matter if you're right or if you're wrong.
Edited by RockyIf you're correct, however, wouldn't it be cause for you owing the owner of the website much more than a one-time $50 donation... to cover the cost of the traffic?
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chockfull
So we are holding the site hostage to incentivize a troll?
Don’t anger the troll as an incentive?
Why would instead of that a ban or a temp ban not be more in the sites interest?
Actually personally I’ve left here for a while. I would probably do that over incentivizing a troll with the choice of censoring what I say here regarding VPW idolatry.
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Rocky
Doing so likely would be much more effective.
In words Mike no doubt heard in Vic's voice countless times 40+ years ago: a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
If posters were to allow him to claim victory, whether any reader were to be convinced by him or not, wouldn't that completely mitigate his motivation for posting here?
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chockfull
I’m sorry I didn’t understand if there is a request in there for me.
Do you want me to stop answering any posts here?
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chockfull
I guess my reply to Mike in general would be if the idea of melting down actual statues of VPW that actually exist in actual lobbies of buildings and actually on leaders desks you need to attack so hard with multiple pages of content non stop in every topic thread and make up some kind of new BS term called “anti idol” with hate attached, maybe I’m really on to something. I mean it certainly is blinding to the heart of the stealing and lying commandments.
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Nathan_Jr
Did victor ever rewrite his dissertation for a general audience? I know scholars will occasionally do this. A dissertation is a scholarly book written for a scholarly audience -- it's highly technical and won't fit on a 3x5 card. Has anyone ever read victor's dissertation?
I seem to remember James Tabor talking about a book that was essentially an expansion and rewrite of his dissertation, but written for a general audience. (I can't remember which book. It may be his latest Paul's Ascent to Paradise or else The Jesus Dynasty.)
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OldSkool
First off, I have been an terrible example of what I am about to post, sometime knowing what to do and doing are two...yeah..well...The way to deal with most any internet troll is to ignore the shenanigans and stay on topic in spite of them. If they have on topic contributions that are more than something as crazy as weve seen posted lately then respond. If its just the same ole obvious button pushing then either ignore it or say your peace and keep it moving back on topic. Im not saying dont ever respond either, thats an individual choice. I dont think banning Mike is the way to go, if for no other reason than I would rather deal with his voice of dissent than stifle it simply because thats what TWI would do, and Im not directing anything at you Chockful cause Im sympathetic to how yo feel. Banning someone who doesnt follow forum rules is a common practice. Personally, and my opinion means squat in the scheme of things, but personally - I like that mike comes in with his point of view and we can respond logically, with facts and resources that prove whatever the positions are and he can be as crazy as he wants...except the crazier he gets the more it shows the end results of wierwilles doctrines. Like I say, someone like Mike who posts all the uncomfortable history that the way international wants to silence is actually working against all things pfal and the way international, so let him have at it.
Im sure from Rafs, or any other mods point of view, if we are engaging in the same shenanigans that mike brings to the table then we are just as culpable as mike in dragging the forums all over the place. Not only that I wouldnt want a mod silencing anything I had to say here on GSC and we would be forcing them to choose sides where they likely should remain objective and uninvolved with doctrinal content unless said content is egregiously harmful. My 2 cents.
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