I am NOT using the word "vitrio"l to describe how I see the victims telling their stories of being hurt here.
I used the word "vitriol" to describe the attitudes in the most active posters, not the real victim's stories. I also used the word "vitriol" to describe how I am treated when I am trying to introduce some accuracy, balance, and workable solutions.
I am not blaming victims for having bad feelings. That is understandable, and I would never blame them, nor scold them for being too harsh. When people are trying to recover from those kinds of things great love and gentleness must be used.
Now it gets very complicated when a victim turns around and starts trying to use their situation as a lever of influence in hammering out a new theology to oppose what we learned in PFAL. I am in a difficult position with such a very vocal and influential victim. Do I try to help them heal, or do I debate their theology? I have that problem some with Charlene, and I'm guessing I would have it much more intensely with Kristen.
Are any of the high volume posters still in the position of being real victims of damage? I get the impression you folks are over it for your own personal grudges, and you are fighting for the possibly much greater losses of some others.
Every active poster I am aware of are victims. You use the word vitriol to describe most active posters.
Therefore you ARE describing victims with the word vitriol.
Next you are belittling their experience. Hinting that active posters weren’t the real ones that experienced damage, but are more posting due to personal grudges or champions for others is called gaslighting.
You are gaslighting active posters.
I don’t get the picture this gaslighting is happening for the benefit of the victims the active posters but more for your overall purpose of whitewash.
Lastly hammering out a new theology that is not plagiarized and based on a false premise and promise based on a Mormon like experience is EXACTLY what most victims need to do and are doing to recover.
If a system has no incentive to change, it doesn't.
I get the impression that the younger leaders inherited a system that they can see WAS broken. I have had frank conversations with local leaders about how they have been patiently waiting and working to see the problems in the ministry dealt with better, now that they are not limited by Rosalie like before. They were obviously fed up with her.
I think the younger leaders in the system have a strong motivation to not be associated with a ministry that is hated by so many former members. They have to be highly motivated to not be stuck in the mud the older generation left for them. There is a good chance for systematic change of the system there.
I get the impression that the younger leaders inherited a system that they can see WAS broken. I have had frank conversations with local leaders about how they have been patiently waiting and working to see the problems in the ministry dealt with better, now that they are not limited by Rosalie like before. They were obviously fed up with her.
I think the younger leaders in the system have a strong motivation to not be associated with a ministry that is hated by so many former members. They have to be highly motivated to not be stuck in the mud the older generation left for them. There is a good chance for systematic change of the system there.
If they were going to change the system, they would be changing it. Not talking about it.
Like all those people that remonstrated Saint Vic's escapades, there was no wasting time talking, they changed the system almost immediately.
So why don't you try and introduce accuracy, balance, and workable solutions in fellowship? Because we know what would happen, don't we?
Then you come here and whine about your freedom of speech. Where's your freedom of speech in fellowship?
So where are you in bondage and where are you free?
Actually, I do bring up the difficult topics at fellowship, but only when I'm sure there are no younger grads or new people who will hear me.
I respect the TWI-4 desire to minister to them, and don't want to make that complicated by bringing up 35 year old problems the new people don't need to hear. I respect TWI-4 and they respect me. I have been allowed to say lots of things you'd be surprised at. They often have recognized that I am not not trying to make trouble, but thinking solutions.
I get the impression that the younger leaders inherited a system that they can see WAS broken. I have had frank conversations with local leaders about how they have been patiently waiting and working to see the problems in the ministry dealt with better, now that they are not limited by Rosalie like before. They were obviously fed up with her.
I think the younger leaders in the system have a strong motivation to not be associated with a ministry that is hated by so many former members. They have to be highly motivated to not be stuck in the mud the older generation left for them. There is a good chance for systematic change of the system there.
Well this really is interesting musing about what may or may not have been going on on leadership.
I am gonna lean towards the not going on as the only experience I see you have in interacting with said leadership is 2 removed and I’ve never heard anything from any leader ever that has even a conciliatory tone.
There’s a good chance for change when it happens. You gaslighting victims on GS is about as far from evidence of that change as I have seen.
It’s actually evidence of the opposite that I see. Leaders too chicken to say anything accountable so they remove names from doctrinal articles and send out “come home” messengers like yourself without directly dealing with anyone. Pharisees will Pharisee.
Actually, I do bring up the difficult topics at fellowship, but only when I'm sure there are no younger grads or new people who will hear me.
I respect the TWI-4 desire to minister to them, and don't want to make that complicated by bringing up 35 year old problems the new people don't need to hear. I respect TWI-4 and they respect me. I have been allowed to say lots of things you'd be surprised at. They often have recognized that I am not not trying to make trouble, but thinking solutions.
This sounds exactly like the debt topic. They tolerated a lot of Corps and AC grads writing in about it until they didn’t. They dropped all of those.
“But the dictators are really benevolent” pales in comparison as a motivation beside heading out of the bondage of Egypt and making free choices.
Actually, I do bring up the difficult topics at fellowship, but only when I'm sure there are no younger grads or new people who will hear me.
Sure you do. If you did, you wouldn't be there. You know it an I know it.
7 minutes ago, Mike said:
I respect the TWI-4 desire to minister to them, and don't want to make that complicated by bringing up 35 year old problems the new people don't need to hear.
So The Way enabled a predator and you don't think people need to hear it??!
7 minutes ago, Mike said:
I respect TWI-4 and they respect me. I have been allowed to say lots of things you'd be surprised at.
Since I know you like to make outrageous claims, like what? Surprise me.
7 minutes ago, Mike said:
They often have recognized that I am not not trying to make trouble, but thinking solutions.
Leaders too chicken to say anything accountable so they remove names from doctrinal articles and send out “come home” messengers like yourself without directly dealing with anyone. ...
I noticed that identifying the real doctrinal leadership there is problematic, and the anonymous doctrine articles they publish adds to the slight mystery of who is really calling the shots at TWI-4. I am a little bit suspicious that Rosalie and Donna may want to still lead from the shadows. How much this is the case I want to find out for several reasons.
I have seen in my business that many commercial undertakings are run by unknown people, who place puppets out in front of thwm to deflect criticism and effective challenges. If this is going on in TWI-4 I will eventually find out about it, by the style of resistance I get.
In my business, soliciting contracts from a company means I have to find WHO really makes the financial and budgetary decisions, if I want make a meaningful pitch to work for them.
In 42 years I have seen how about 600 businesses operate. It is very common for the real leaders to operate in the shadows, and have front men to do their dirty work.
I mean if change really needed to happen it happened really quickly as opposed to the hogwash line about “it’s a big ship and needs time to turn”.
No it’s a simple decision to set a button takes no time at all.
How long after VP met JE Stiles did he plagiarize his book? 6 months or less. Same with Kenyon and BG Leonard. That class was adopted and formed almost immediately.
If you can steal something in a moment but it takes 4 generations of your followers to not admit it, how likely do you think that change is gonna be?
Sure you do. If you did, you wouldn't be there. You know it an I know it.
So The Way enabled a predator and you don't think people need to hear it??!
Since I know you like to make outrageous claims, like what? Surprise me.
But you come here to make trouble right?
I am trying to not make trouble here. I admit some times we have drifted into meaningless bickering, and i want to change that.
I think you are living in the past too much. We got to let go of some of the things we can't change. There are some things that are changable and we should focus on them.
I am trying to not make trouble here. I admit some times we have drifted into meaningless bickering, and i want to change that.
I think you are living in the past too much. We got to let go of some of the things we can't change. There are some things that are changable and we should focus on them.
It’s nice to see the judgement mixed in with the gaslighting. Makes me feel like I’m home at the Way.
So you who have refused to allow into the brain any other possibility besides PFAL are NOT living in the past?
I mean by the ministry poster that Kool Aid snowstorm promise is 80 years old this year.
Less insularity. No pressure to take class. No demand for respect without earning it. Willingness to talk about previous forbidden topics. No pressure to tithe. Light heats and cheerful attitudes. I saw all these things in spades here locally, plus rich e-mail conversations with several thinker/writers in TWI around the country, and I sense the same in my few brief interactions with leaders at HQ.
I am trying to not make trouble here. I admit some times we have drifted into meaningless bickering, and i want to change that.
I think you are living in the past too much. We got to let go of some of the things we can't change. There are some things that are changable and we should focus on them.
There's a theory that states we live in a simulation. However, there's no way to prove it, because we'd have to step out of the simulation to prove it.
That's how I see your problem. You're stuck in the matrix and refuse to see it for what it is. We at GSC have left the matrix and know what it is.
So you who have refused to allow into the brain any other possibility besides PFAL are NOT living in the past?
I have said before, that I have faced many of the challenges discussed here between 6 and 10 years before anyone here. I have gone through all kinds of alternate thinking modes CONTRARY to pfal, LONG before anyone here. I went through that phase, and eventually I found that the collaterals are the baby, and almost everything else was bathwater of varying pollution levels.
I finished my thinking of other possibilities outside of PFAL in 1998, a few years before GreaseSpot was founded.
Less insularity. No pressure to take class. No demand for respect without earning it. Willingness to talk about previous forbidden topics. No pressure to tithe. Light heats and cheerful attitudes. I saw all these things in spades here locally, plus rich e-mail conversations with several thinker/writers in TWI around the country, and I sense the same in my few brief interactions with leaders at HQ.
All things that can vary from location to location and can't be proven.
Less insularity. No pressure to take class. No demand for respect without earning it. Willingness to talk about previous forbidden topics. No pressure to tithe. Light heats and cheerful attitudes. I saw all these things in spades here locally, plus rich e-mail conversations with several thinker/writers in TWI around the country, and I sense the same in my few brief interactions with leaders at HQ.
These aren’t the changes people asked for though. It’s bait and switch.
The changes that were asked for from a group of likeminded Corps they instead of considering them and responding they marked and avoided the requesters.
If that was wrong and done due to Rosalie’s undue influence then they can undo it with one meeting and some phone calls.
But they are not doing that. They are “greasy” honest because they are hurting for followers.
There's a theory that states we live in a simulation. However, there's no way to prove it, because we'd have to step out of the simulation to prove it.
That's how I see your problem. You're stuck in the matrix and refuse to see it for what it is. We at GSC have left the matrix and know what it is.
No. Wrong history you have in mind.
As I just mentioned above, I left the matrix around 1987, after having one foot out for years.
I stepped out long ago, and later, after many new learnings, came back to PFAL in 1998.
I have said before, that I have faced many of the challenges discussed here between 6 and 10 years before anyone here. I have gone through all kinds of alternate thinking modes CONTRARY to pfal, LONG before anyone here. I went through that phase, and eventually I found that the collaterals are the baby, and almost everything else was bathwater of varying pollution levels.
I finished my thinking of other possibilities outside of PFAL in 1998, a few years before GreaseSpot was founded.
And we've had it proven time and time again the collaterals are filled with error. We won't budge on that. So you're wasting your time.
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waysider
I guess I just don't understand why he would even need this degree, seeing as how God gave him access to all the secrets of the universe anyhow.
waysider
Allow me to state this in the simplest way possible,. This statement is simply false. Error after error after error has been scrutinized here. Thread upon thread upon thread has dissected these errors
chockfull
It would mean they came to the truth of the realization that worshipping an idol of VPW is not a viable future for a Christian ministry. It would mean they discarded the old wineskin and were fre
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chockfull
Every active poster I am aware of are victims. You use the word vitriol to describe most active posters.
Therefore you ARE describing victims with the word vitriol.
Next you are belittling their experience. Hinting that active posters weren’t the real ones that experienced damage, but are more posting due to personal grudges or champions for others is called gaslighting.
You are gaslighting active posters.
I don’t get the picture this gaslighting is happening for the benefit of the victims the active posters but more for your overall purpose of whitewash.
Lastly hammering out a new theology that is not plagiarized and based on a false premise and promise based on a Mormon like experience is EXACTLY what most victims need to do and are doing to recover.
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So_crates
So why don't you try and introduce accuracy, balance, and workable solutions in fellowship? Because we know what would happen, don't we?
Then you come here and whine about your freedom of speech. Where's your freedom of speech in fellowship?
So where are you in bondage and where are you free?
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Mike
I get the impression that the younger leaders inherited a system that they can see WAS broken. I have had frank conversations with local leaders about how they have been patiently waiting and working to see the problems in the ministry dealt with better, now that they are not limited by Rosalie like before. They were obviously fed up with her.
I think the younger leaders in the system have a strong motivation to not be associated with a ministry that is hated by so many former members. They have to be highly motivated to not be stuck in the mud the older generation left for them. There is a good chance for systematic change of the system there.
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So_crates
If they were going to change the system, they would be changing it. Not talking about it.
Like all those people that remonstrated Saint Vic's escapades, there was no wasting time talking, they changed the system almost immediately.
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Mike
Actually, I do bring up the difficult topics at fellowship, but only when I'm sure there are no younger grads or new people who will hear me.
I respect the TWI-4 desire to minister to them, and don't want to make that complicated by bringing up 35 year old problems the new people don't need to hear. I respect TWI-4 and they respect me. I have been allowed to say lots of things you'd be surprised at. They often have recognized that I am not not trying to make trouble, but thinking solutions.
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chockfull
Well this really is interesting musing about what may or may not have been going on on leadership.
I am gonna lean towards the not going on as the only experience I see you have in interacting with said leadership is 2 removed and I’ve never heard anything from any leader ever that has even a conciliatory tone.
There’s a good chance for change when it happens. You gaslighting victims on GS is about as far from evidence of that change as I have seen.
It’s actually evidence of the opposite that I see. Leaders too chicken to say anything accountable so they remove names from doctrinal articles and send out “come home” messengers like yourself without directly dealing with anyone. Pharisees will Pharisee.
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Mike
Some change has already happened. More is to come in my estimation.
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chockfull
This sounds exactly like the debt topic. They tolerated a lot of Corps and AC grads writing in about it until they didn’t. They dropped all of those.
“But the dictators are really benevolent” pales in comparison as a motivation beside heading out of the bondage of Egypt and making free choices.
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chockfull
We’re still waiting on you to fulfill the promise of reading a book that could be done in a week but hasn’t got done in many months.
Your estimation is worth the unfulfilled promises because of a slanted attitude it is written on.
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So_crates
Sure you do. If you did, you wouldn't be there. You know it an I know it.
So The Way enabled a predator and you don't think people need to hear it??!
Since I know you like to make outrageous claims, like what? Surprise me.
But you come here to make trouble right?
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Mike
I noticed that identifying the real doctrinal leadership there is problematic, and the anonymous doctrine articles they publish adds to the slight mystery of who is really calling the shots at TWI-4. I am a little bit suspicious that Rosalie and Donna may want to still lead from the shadows. How much this is the case I want to find out for several reasons.
I have seen in my business that many commercial undertakings are run by unknown people, who place puppets out in front of thwm to deflect criticism and effective challenges. If this is going on in TWI-4 I will eventually find out about it, by the style of resistance I get.
In my business, soliciting contracts from a company means I have to find WHO really makes the financial and budgetary decisions, if I want make a meaningful pitch to work for them.
In 42 years I have seen how about 600 businesses operate. It is very common for the real leaders to operate in the shadows, and have front men to do their dirty work.
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chockfull
I mean if change really needed to happen it happened really quickly as opposed to the hogwash line about “it’s a big ship and needs time to turn”.
No it’s a simple decision to set a button takes no time at all.
How long after VP met JE Stiles did he plagiarize his book? 6 months or less. Same with Kenyon and BG Leonard. That class was adopted and formed almost immediately.
If you can steal something in a moment but it takes 4 generations of your followers to not admit it, how likely do you think that change is gonna be?
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So_crates
Like what? Specifics, please.
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Mike
I am trying to not make trouble here. I admit some times we have drifted into meaningless bickering, and i want to change that.
I think you are living in the past too much. We got to let go of some of the things we can't change. There are some things that are changable and we should focus on them.
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chockfull
It’s nice to see the judgement mixed in with the gaslighting. Makes me feel like I’m home at the Way.
So you who have refused to allow into the brain any other possibility besides PFAL are NOT living in the past?
I mean by the ministry poster that Kool Aid snowstorm promise is 80 years old this year.
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Mike
Less insularity. No pressure to take class. No demand for respect without earning it. Willingness to talk about previous forbidden topics. No pressure to tithe. Light heats and cheerful attitudes. I saw all these things in spades here locally, plus rich e-mail conversations with several thinker/writers in TWI around the country, and I sense the same in my few brief interactions with leaders at HQ.
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So_crates
There's a theory that states we live in a simulation. However, there's no way to prove it, because we'd have to step out of the simulation to prove it.
That's how I see your problem. You're stuck in the matrix and refuse to see it for what it is. We at GSC have left the matrix and know what it is.
Your goal is to coax people back into the matrix.
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Mike
I have said before, that I have faced many of the challenges discussed here between 6 and 10 years before anyone here. I have gone through all kinds of alternate thinking modes CONTRARY to pfal, LONG before anyone here. I went through that phase, and eventually I found that the collaterals are the baby, and almost everything else was bathwater of varying pollution levels.
I finished my thinking of other possibilities outside of PFAL in 1998, a few years before GreaseSpot was founded.
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So_crates
All things that can vary from location to location and can't be proven.
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chockfull
These aren’t the changes people asked for though. It’s bait and switch.
The changes that were asked for from a group of likeminded Corps they instead of considering them and responding they marked and avoided the requesters.
If that was wrong and done due to Rosalie’s undue influence then they can undo it with one meeting and some phone calls.
But they are not doing that. They are “greasy” honest because they are hurting for followers.
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Mike
No. Wrong history you have in mind.
As I just mentioned above, I left the matrix around 1987, after having one foot out for years.
I stepped out long ago, and later, after many new learnings, came back to PFAL in 1998.
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Mike
Give it a little time.
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So_crates
And we've had it proven time and time again the collaterals are filled with error. We won't budge on that. So you're wasting your time.
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Mike
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