I think of Mike as a mirror. He's just an image to be shadow boxed if inclined. Maybe he really exists somewhere, I will never know. This is the internet.
I’m sorry I didn’t understand if there is a request in there for me.
Do you want me to stop answering any posts here?
Not addressed to anyone in particular.
THE salient point is I believe those bickering with Mike (there are several) are those as a group who indirectly hold GSC hostage.
I believe allowing him a sense of (even if only an illusion in his mind) of victory is the ONLY thing that could succeed in putting a stop to his senseless decades long rant.
Doesn't matter if you're right or if you're wrong.
If you're correct, however, wouldn't it be cause for you owing the owner of the website much more than a one-time $50 donation... to cover the cost of the traffic?
I would think that the traffic I generate is good for the GSC owners.
... as opposed to crickets and inactivity.
Certainly each poster thinks their contribution to the traffic is good,
and are glad that they can have their say.
Most of the traffic is not me, but people objecting to what I post.
*/*/*/*/*
I had no idea that the active posters here chip in substantially, until you, Rocky brought it up.
How much do the other large volume posters chip in?
Anyone ever discuss this? I asked what would be a proper donation, and got no answer, so I guessed that $50 would be good, at least for a while. ...like a year? If the money is really an issue, I think we can straighten that part out with relative ease. I am willing to pay more.
But I suspect it is not really the money that is in your focus here.
I think my serious assault on the building and maintaining of a pure evil model of VPW is the real issue you are concerned with, and not the money. You and this small band of about 10 regular posters that still hang out here, after 20 years, have a pretty unified perspective, and you want to get rid of any competing opinions, especially one that is almost opposite to the prevailing one.
But really my perspective is not opposite to pure evil. That would be a VPW idol in my life, a counterfeit Jesus.
In my perspective he is both good and bad, just like everyone, except his was bigger. What is different about him is that the very visible good from him is enormous, and likewise, when he was off the ball, it sounds like the damage he did was enormous also.
The prevailing opinion here, that VPW was pure evil, is only one opinion grads can have. Many have other opinions. GreaseSpot historically began with, and has maintained a policy of, giving the suppressed opinions of people in TWI-1, -2, -3 opportunity to express themselves.
GSC began with a mission to grant freedom of speech where it had been suppressed in the past.
The reason I was allowed to post here from the beginning was because I offered a genuine OTHER perspective on whole TWI deal, what went right, what went wrong, and what solutions exist for the TWI damages.
The perspective of the majority of high frequency posters here is that VPW is pure evil.My perspective is more natural and Biblical, that when he walked with God he could bless big, but when he was out of fellowship he could hurt big.
That is a model we can often see in real life, that powerful men can do great things, and then turn around and do very great evil.
We have Biblical models of that.We have Romans telling us that we ALL have similar hearts that are desperately evil.Very few of us, though, were ever so powerful and influential that our worst acts of selfishness would incur widespread damage. Usually, when we really blow it, the damage is minimal by comparison.
My model of VPW is more realistic than the model offered here.The reality of the good that VPW did will not go away by having my posting banned.
The only way the pure evil model can be maintained here is by more and more systematic insularity, not looking at other grads’ lifestyles, and isolating yourselves more and more (like banning oldiesman and johniam) until you run out of gas.
I suspect you will run out of things to talk about pretty soon, and simultaneously, the population of old grads who were affected by TWI will continue die off, meaning the GreaseSpot audience will dwindle.Add to that the sad fact that all we older posters will be physically running out of gas, and then life, fairly soon.
So I think there is inherent obsolescence to the maintaining of the anti-idol. It will wither and dissipate in the next 20 years. I made the point that the main posters here are not going to be able to inspire their progeny or other young people to take up the anti-idol cause.
But if people can switch gears here, they can get a balanced realistic model of VPW, and then go about repairing the damage issue by issue, while recognizing the folly of attacking the good he did.
If people here can lighten up a bit, there can be real solutions that can be dreamed and built.
I am serious about:
a future Reparations Department at HQ,
a PFAL Grad’s Bill of Rights,
Engineering Change Notices,
an unvarnished and balanced history of TWI written,
and I am serious about helping other grads sort out between the good and the bad that we received from TWI.
So I am proposing that the pure evil anti-idol is going nowhere.
I am proposing the history of TWI can be better discovered, documented, and that so doing can set some limited solutions, to take care of grads better this side of the Return.
I dont think banning Mike is the way to go, if for no other reason than I would rather deal with his voice of dissent than stifle it simply because thats what TWI would do... ...I like that mike comes in with his point of view and we can respond logically ... ... and he can be as crazy as he wants...except the crazier he gets the more it shows the end results of wierwilles doctrines.
Thanks, Gamaliel for that voice of reason and moderation.
I can assure you that I have always been this crazy, so it won't get any worse. What you may be seeing is my writing improving, to better express my craziness.
Im starting to get the impression from your posts that there was a largish movement in America where guys like wierwille popped up like whack-a-mole. Have you traced any of this back to EW Kenyon and New Though Movement types in the late 1800s early 1900s?
I don’t know if it was so much wack-a-mole for the preacher as it was for the seminary.
There was a movement. A trend. Increasingly, the clergy was becoming credentialed by academia. (This is not a bad thing.) But within this movement, were the hucksters, like VPW, appropriating this tactic of academic credentialing.
New Thought is a separate movement, but connected, probably. Jihadist Christians and New Thought practitioners were reactionaries to a status quo. I don’t know if New Thought practitioners fetishized and coveted academic credentials quite like the jihadist Christian hucksters, like victor Paul wierwille.
New Thought is a separate movement, but connected, probably. Jihadist Christians and New Thought practitioners were reactionaries to a status quo. I don’t know if New Thought practitioners fetishized and coveted academic credentials quite like the jihadist Christian hucksters, like victor Paul wierwille.
Im thinking at this point, and this will probably change as I progress, that there was more of an progression of events where doctrinal/practical elements sort of snowballed as time went. But it seems a inter-related, somewhat traceable effort with these movements that largely comprise fundamentalist/pentacostal/evangelical Christianity as we know today. That book I posted in doctrinal on Darby promises to be a good read. Cool insight.
Im thinking at this point, and this will probably change as I progress, that there was more of an progression of events where doctrinal/practical elements sort of snowballed as time went. But it seems a inter-related, somewhat traceable effort with these movements that largely comprise fundamentalist/pentacostal/evangelical Christianity as we know today. That book I posted in doctrinal on Darby promises to be a good read. Cool insight.
Thanks, I'll check it out... or else will add it to the list...
THE salient point is I believe those bickering with Mike (there are several) are those as a group who indirectly hold GSC hostage.
I believe allowing him a sense of (even if only an illusion in his mind) of victory is the ONLY thing that could succeed in putting a stop to his senseless decades long rant.
Sure. Be happy to allow him the sense of victory as an illusion in his mind.
How does this play out?
Since he is basically enacting a running filibuster across all active threads on the site, does this mean everyone else should temp ban themselves for a period of time?
Thanks, I'll check it out... or else will add it to the list...
Im sure there are other sources, however at this point its difficult to find an unbiased schorlarly work on Darby and I think i finally found one. Im not discounting that I may be a dumb@$$ and have overlooked just such a book from other sources...lol. What I have mostly found is either people who are rabidly against Darby or the fundie crowd that call Darby a great man of God and fawn over the guy like he was worthy of such adoration...wait a tick...sounds like..ya..
Ive started reading it and so far were off to the races.
First off, I have been an terrible example of what I am about to post, sometime knowing what to do and doing are two...yeah..well...The way to deal with most any internet troll is to ignore the shenanigans and stay on topic in spite of them. If they have on topic contributions that are more than something as crazy as weve seen posted lately then respond. If its just the same ole obvious button pushing then either ignore it or say your peace and keep it moving back on topic. Im not saying dont ever respond either, thats an individual choice. I dont think banning Mike is the way to go, if for no other reason than I would rather deal with his voice of dissent than stifle it simply because thats what TWI would do, and Im not directing anything at you Chockful cause Im sympathetic to how yo feel. Banning someone who doesnt follow forum rules is a common practice. Personally, and my opinion means squat in the scheme of things, but personally - I like that mike comes in with his point of view and we can respond logically, with facts and resources that prove whatever the positions are and he can be as crazy as he wants...except the crazier he gets the more it shows the end results of wierwilles doctrines. Like I say, someone like Mike who posts all the uncomfortable history that the way international wants to silence is actually working against all things pfal and the way international, so let him have at it.
Im sure from Rafs, or any other mods point of view, if we are engaging in the same shenanigans that mike brings to the table then we are just as culpable as mike in dragging the forums all over the place. Not only that I wouldnt want a mod silencing anything I had to say here on GSC and we would be forcing them to choose sides where they likely should remain objective and uninvolved with doctrinal content unless said content is egregiously harmful. My 2 cents.
I’m bringing up the ban or temp ban as a solution to the problem. It is a result of others suggesting various types of tactics.
There is the Prov 26:4,5 dilemma that exists.
If we engage with the troll he brings us down to his level. If we don’t he magnified his own thoughts and deceits across the entire site. To me this renders the site confusing and keeps the discussion low and base where TWI and critics of the site want it.
Well, I cant say but I can say since ive stopped worrying about mike im already enjoying my time here again...lol
I have usually enjoyed my time. If I make whether or not I do dependent on a troll he’s already won.
I’ve stopped caring before also. I’ve introduced humor to make it more fun. But the basic argument is the same decades after decade. I do believe that makes a difference in the quality of what the site is about - presenting the OTHER side of the story.
The whitewashed version is available anywhere rumors fly and publications are removed from site.
To me this renders the site confusing and keeps the discussion low and base where TWI and critics of the site want it.
And thats mikes goal as well...I mean its obvious from his content. Like I said, if you feel like you need to address anything have at it and Im not holding back either. Im just not interested in doing the same dance everyday so I will likely largely ignore mike unless he can actually deal with the topic. And if you notice he did not dissect not the first link I posted which means he doesnt follow the links or read much of anything and jumps in here with basically opininated ramblings that are ;likely an embarrasment to the way. So let him keep on keeping on.
To reiterate the conclusions of objective, independent investigations:
Pikes Peak "seminary" was a real... place... with a real... street address to which a "student" might mail a check. It's a residential house.
Pikes Peak had a photograph of a group of "graduates" or something. This photo hung on the wall.
victor purchased a doctorate of theology (ThD) in homiletics -- preaching.
victor did NOT attend classes. His engagement was mail order correspondence.
victor claims he wrote his dissertation on Peter.
A dissertation is a book written by the doctoral candidate. It is the culmination of exhaustive researchto produce a wholly original work.
A dissertation will not fit on a 3x5 card.
No one has read victor's alleged dissertation.
victor's motive for acquiring (a more accurate word than earning) his doctorate was to erect a veneer of credibility. Ironically, victor would go on to repeatedly disparage real scholars, researchers and academia in general, all the while insisting on his own flimsy, academic title.
a future Reparations Department at HQ, Never going to happen. And how would they contact everyone? But if they cared to make reparations to me, for the substantial damage they've caused to my life, they can contact me via this site.
a PFAL Grad’s Bill of Rights, Like, not being molested? Like access to the real TWI accounts? Like being treated like the head honchos at TWI, inasmuch as TWI ceases to be respecters of persons? Will the special places to live be occupied by normal people? Will head honchos move into Founders Hall and live four to a room, and have to move to the adjacent room after 4 months?
an unvarnished and balanced history of TWI written, Make sure you include the genuine record as told here.
and I am serious about helping other grads sort out between the good and the bad that we received from TWI. Just send them here. Remind me, Mike: how many people have you actually brought to this site, to help them sort out the good from the bad?
So I am proposing that the pure evil anti-idol is going nowhere. The only "pure evil anti-idol" is in yourhead, Mike. Whatcha gonna do? Chop your head off?
"Doctor" was to make people think he knew stuff about things.
People followed as an appeal to authority?
I think so too. Im thinking the Doctor part was to give off an air of intellectual superiority and fake research credentials since a ThD is an advanced research degree that would actually mean something from a real school and the one got from pike peaks was worthless.
I agree with that appeal to authority...especially when you consider he had that jacked version of Romans 13 that allowed himself to call himself and his leadership group "higher powers" -- which they were not.
I think so too. Im thinking the Doctor part was to give off an air of intellectual superiority and fake research credentials since a ThD is an advanced research degree that would actually mean something from a real school and the one got from pike peaks was worthless.
I agree with that appeal to authority...especially when you consider he had that jacked version of Romans 13 that allowed himself to call himself and his leadership group "higher powers" -- which they were not.
I think Nathan mention appeal to authority earlier as a fallacy.
(He was also called Father, and MOG, which takes it other places)
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waysider
I guess I just don't understand why he would even need this degree, seeing as how God gave him access to all the secrets of the universe anyhow.
waysider
Allow me to state this in the simplest way possible,. This statement is simply false. Error after error after error has been scrutinized here. Thread upon thread upon thread has dissected these errors
chockfull
It would mean they came to the truth of the realization that worshipping an idol of VPW is not a viable future for a Christian ministry. It would mean they discarded the old wineskin and were fre
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OldSkool
Salient point.
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Rocky
Not addressed to anyone in particular.
Edited by RockyTHE salient point is I believe those bickering with Mike (there are several) are those as a group who indirectly hold GSC hostage.
I believe allowing him a sense of (even if only an illusion in his mind) of victory is the ONLY thing that could succeed in putting a stop to his senseless decades long rant.
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Mike
I would think that the traffic I generate is good for the GSC owners.
... as opposed to crickets and inactivity.
Certainly each poster thinks their contribution to the traffic is good,
and are glad that they can have their say.
Most of the traffic is not me, but people objecting to what I post.
*/*/*/*/*
I had no idea that the active posters here chip in substantially, until you, Rocky brought it up.
How much do the other large volume posters chip in?
Anyone ever discuss this? I asked what would be a proper donation, and got no answer, so I guessed that $50 would be good, at least for a while. ...like a year? If the money is really an issue, I think we can straighten that part out with relative ease. I am willing to pay more.
But I suspect it is not really the money that is in your focus here.
I think my serious assault on the building and maintaining of a pure evil model of VPW is the real issue you are concerned with, and not the money. You and this small band of about 10 regular posters that still hang out here, after 20 years, have a pretty unified perspective, and you want to get rid of any competing opinions, especially one that is almost opposite to the prevailing one.
But really my perspective is not opposite to pure evil. That would be a VPW idol in my life, a counterfeit Jesus.
In my perspective he is both good and bad, just like everyone, except his was bigger. What is different about him is that the very visible good from him is enormous, and likewise, when he was off the ball, it sounds like the damage he did was enormous also.
The prevailing opinion here, that VPW was pure evil, is only one opinion grads can have. Many have other opinions. GreaseSpot historically began with, and has maintained a policy of, giving the suppressed opinions of people in TWI-1, -2, -3 opportunity to express themselves.
GSC began with a mission to grant freedom of speech where it had been suppressed in the past.
The reason I was allowed to post here from the beginning was because I offered a genuine OTHER perspective on whole TWI deal, what went right, what went wrong, and what solutions exist for the TWI damages.
The perspective of the majority of high frequency posters here is that VPW is pure evil. My perspective is more natural and Biblical, that when he walked with God he could bless big, but when he was out of fellowship he could hurt big.
That is a model we can often see in real life, that powerful men can do great things, and then turn around and do very great evil.
We have Biblical models of that. We have Romans telling us that we ALL have similar hearts that are desperately evil. Very few of us, though, were ever so powerful and influential that our worst acts of selfishness would incur widespread damage. Usually, when we really blow it, the damage is minimal by comparison.
My model of VPW is more realistic than the model offered here. The reality of the good that VPW did will not go away by having my posting banned.
The only way the pure evil model can be maintained here is by more and more systematic insularity, not looking at other grads’ lifestyles, and isolating yourselves more and more (like banning oldiesman and johniam) until you run out of gas.
I suspect you will run out of things to talk about pretty soon, and simultaneously, the population of old grads who were affected by TWI will continue die off, meaning the GreaseSpot audience will dwindle. Add to that the sad fact that all we older posters will be physically running out of gas, and then life, fairly soon.
So I think there is inherent obsolescence to the maintaining of the anti-idol. It will wither and dissipate in the next 20 years. I made the point that the main posters here are not going to be able to inspire their progeny or other young people to take up the anti-idol cause.
But if people can switch gears here, they can get a balanced realistic model of VPW, and then go about repairing the damage issue by issue, while recognizing the folly of attacking the good he did.
If people here can lighten up a bit, there can be real solutions that can be dreamed and built.
I am serious about:
a future Reparations Department at HQ,
a PFAL Grad’s Bill of Rights,
Engineering Change Notices,
an unvarnished and balanced history of TWI written,
and I am serious about helping other grads sort out between the good and the bad that we received from TWI.
So I am proposing that the pure evil anti-idol is going nowhere.
I am proposing the history of TWI can be better discovered, documented, and that so doing can set some limited solutions, to take care of grads better this side of the Return.
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Mike
Thanks, Gamaliel for that voice of reason and moderation.
I can assure you that I have always been this crazy, so it won't get any worse. What you may be seeing is my writing improving, to better express my craziness.
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Nathan_Jr
I don’t know if it was so much wack-a-mole for the preacher as it was for the seminary.
There was a movement. A trend. Increasingly, the clergy was becoming credentialed by academia. (This is not a bad thing.) But within this movement, were the hucksters, like VPW, appropriating this tactic of academic credentialing.
New Thought is a separate movement, but connected, probably. Jihadist Christians and New Thought practitioners were reactionaries to a status quo. I don’t know if New Thought practitioners fetishized and coveted academic credentials quite like the jihadist Christian hucksters, like victor Paul wierwille.
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OldSkool
Im thinking at this point, and this will probably change as I progress, that there was more of an progression of events where doctrinal/practical elements sort of snowballed as time went. But it seems a inter-related, somewhat traceable effort with these movements that largely comprise fundamentalist/pentacostal/evangelical Christianity as we know today. That book I posted in doctrinal on Darby promises to be a good read. Cool insight.
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chockfull
No GSC did not begin with a mission to start free speech. It began with a mission TO TELL THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY.
Cool. Now we’ve allowed Mike to re write the mission and purpose of the site.
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Nathan_Jr
Thanks, I'll check it out... or else will add it to the list...
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chockfull
Sure. Be happy to allow him the sense of victory as an illusion in his mind.
How does this play out?
Since he is basically enacting a running filibuster across all active threads on the site, does this mean everyone else should temp ban themselves for a period of time?
How long?
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OldSkool
Im sure there are other sources, however at this point its difficult to find an unbiased schorlarly work on Darby and I think i finally found one. Im not discounting that I may be a dumb@$$ and have overlooked just such a book from other sources...lol. What I have mostly found is either people who are rabidly against Darby or the fundie crowd that call Darby a great man of God and fawn over the guy like he was worthy of such adoration...wait a tick...sounds like..ya..
Ive started reading it and so far were off to the races.
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chockfull
I’m bringing up the ban or temp ban as a solution to the problem. It is a result of others suggesting various types of tactics.
There is the Prov 26:4,5 dilemma that exists.
If we engage with the troll he brings us down to his level. If we don’t he magnified his own thoughts and deceits across the entire site. To me this renders the site confusing and keeps the discussion low and base where TWI and critics of the site want it.
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OldSkool
Well, I cant say but I can say since ive stopped worrying about mike im already enjoying my time here again...lol
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Nathan_Jr
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chockfull
I have usually enjoyed my time. If I make whether or not I do dependent on a troll he’s already won.
I’ve stopped caring before also. I’ve introduced humor to make it more fun. But the basic argument is the same decades after decade. I do believe that makes a difference in the quality of what the site is about - presenting the OTHER side of the story.
The whitewashed version is available anywhere rumors fly and publications are removed from site.
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OldSkool
And thats mikes goal as well...I mean its obvious from his content. Like I said, if you feel like you need to address anything have at it and Im not holding back either. Im just not interested in doing the same dance everyday so I will likely largely ignore mike unless he can actually deal with the topic. And if you notice he did not dissect not the first link I posted which means he doesnt follow the links or read much of anything and jumps in here with basically opininated ramblings that are ;likely an embarrasment to the way. So let him keep on keeping on.
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OldSkool
Yessir!
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Nathan_Jr
To reiterate the conclusions of objective, independent investigations:
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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Bolshevik
"Doctor" was to make people think he knew stuff about things.
People followed as an appeal to authority?
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Twinky
Poor Mike. Such delusions.
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OldSkool
I think so too. Im thinking the Doctor part was to give off an air of intellectual superiority and fake research credentials since a ThD is an advanced research degree that would actually mean something from a real school and the one got from pike peaks was worthless.
I agree with that appeal to authority...especially when you consider he had that jacked version of Romans 13 that allowed himself to call himself and his leadership group "higher powers" -- which they were not.
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Nathan_Jr
Right. A veneer of credibility. As it has been objectively observed and stated many times. The second time established it.
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Bolshevik
I think Nathan mention appeal to authority earlier as a fallacy.
(He was also called Father, and MOG, which takes it other places)
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Bolshevik
So, if, "Doctor" is discredited, one would think it all falls to pieces.
But if "Father" and "MOG" take root it's like we can ignore that one thing.
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Nathan_Jr
Not a fallacy, but a weak reason for fixating belief.
Edited by Nathan_JrSee Charles S. Peirce's The Fixation of Belief
http://www.sophia-project.org/uploads/1/3/9/5/13955288/peirce_belief.pdf
Gloves
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