The three younger members of my fellowship mockingly snickered when pronouncing Jesus's name. They called him Jay-EEE-zuss. Of course, this was acceptable because Jesus was but a mere bastard Jew.
They were "rightly dividing" whatever they were taught by their man of god, the FC, who stood smugly on the shoulders of victor paul wierwille.
Were any facts given by vp to support this assertion that “Christian” is a derogatory term given by the persecutors.
Did Vic EVER give ANY facts to support ANY of his assertions especially those which apparently differed from generally accepted Christian theology? (rhetorical question)
Acts 26:28 - I remember a Limb coordinator acting this scene out in a very sarcastic tone by King Agrippa where "thou" and "Christian" were emphasized, obviously derogatory.
How was Paul portrayed? Wasn't this when vp said Paul was out of fellowship with God because he had not listened to some prophecies telling him not to go but he went anyway so vp said the most Paul could do was almost convince Agrippa to become a Christian?
I can't remember for sure but vp might even have said that Paul never won anyone to the Lord after this. I have to question if he was accurate about this.
Did Vic EVER given ANY facts to support ANY of his assertions especially those which apparently differed from generally accepted Christian theology? (rhetorical question)
The three younger members of my fellowship mockingly snickered when pronouncing Jesus's name. They called him Jay-EEE-zuss. Of course, this was acceptable because Jesus was but a mere bastard Jew.
They were "rightly dividing" whatever they were taught by their man of god, the FC, who stood smugly on the shoulders of victor paul wierwille.
I'm not making this up. This is NOT a joke.
I sat on the floor listening for years.
Every denomination was mocked in detail. RCs, Methodist, Baptist, and a bunch I can't pronounce. Crosses, statues, hand gestures, prayers. Nothing was sacred.
Every denomination was mocked in detail. RCs, Methodist, Baptist, and a bunch I can't pronounce. Crosses, statues, hand gestures, prayers. Nothing was sacred.
That's both sad and reflective of long-standing contempt for any denomination by leadership of twi.
yes. Being a child I imitated the followers. Because followers are also leaders.
At some point, over time, imitation is no longer imitation, I think.
You have a point - followers becoming leaders - I’m thinking it works like that for a lot of things…I’m a self-taught bass player. At first I imitated my favorite bass players - playing along with the record…when I got comfortable doing that then the creative factor would kick in - eventually reinterpreting a bass line or adding my own riffs or even writing my own tunes.
Another point to consider is who you choose to imitate. What’s noteworthy in the Bible is the transfer of modeling. It’s said of the Thessalonians they became followers - imitators of Paul and his associates AND of the Lord. See I Thessalonians 1:6
Ideally a good Christian leader inspires others to follow them - eventually as followers grow, they no longer need the example of other leaders - they become leaders themselves following the Lord Jesus Christ.
Not sure if I’m expanding on your point - but I’ve seen and experienced both methods of modeling / imitation. The 2 most prevalent modeling / imitation methods in TWI - in my humble opinion anyway - are the wooden mini-wierwille clone and the imitator of Christ. Unfortunately the power structure of TWI favored the wooden mini-wierwille method cuz that’s how you get ahead and gain more power and influence…
as for me - I’m not a type A personality, salesperson or leadership material- I’m more of a tech support and service guy - I love figuring things out, solving problems and helping others.
If I could rewrite a fantasy version of a good TWI , I could see myself being a recording engineer and/or a technical advisor in a research department - I enjoy perusing systematic theologies and commentaries… but I said this is a fantasy - ain’t no way TWI would ever be interested in knowing what legitimate scholars and biblical linguistics and culture experts have to say!
Are you familiar with the mission of Jesus Christ?
If you are - then you probably realize the bogus 1942 promise of God to wierwille was an egomaniac’s snub of the Holy Spirit!
Remember when Jesus explained his mission to Nicodemus:
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God…John 3: 16 - 21
~ ~ ~ ~
Before his crucifixion Jesus promised he would send his disciples a special gift:
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you…John 14: 16, 17
He said The Advocate, the Spirit of truth will help you and would be with you FOREVER !
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth. There can be no compromise - to dilute the truth is to lie.
~ ~ ~ ~
7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”…John 16: 7 - 15
Jesus was saying the Holy Spirit would CONTINUE the mission of Christ! He’s also reinforcing the teaching role of the Holy Spirit…there’s a lot involved in what Jesus promised. Not only would the Holy Spirit remind them of Jesus’ words and works, as the Advocate He would support and champion their cause. I understand this to mean more than just writing the New Testament documents - since the Holy Spirit is with us He is also the “superintendent” of the Scriptures! That suggests a self-authenticating feature of the Bible as implied inJohn 7:17:
“Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.”
Metaphysical truth is self-authenticating through the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit.
~ ~ ~ ~
The phony 1942 promise was one of the many ploys wierwille used to hijack as many Christians as he could. During an interview mentioned in the book “The Way: Living in Love” wierwille told Elena Whiteside, The holy spirit field – that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it."
Perhaps wierwille was intoxicated with his own delusions of grandeur - attempting to seize the souls of the young and naive who fell for his pseudo-Christianity scheme – that he wasTHEHoly Spirit expert.
On page 178 of “The Way Living in Love” wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.”
On page 209 of Whiteside’s book wierwille comments on the content of what he teaches: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit – that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn’t, I dropped.”
~ ~ ~ ~
So, I askYOUwho have been duped by wierwille / PFAL / The Way International – who are you going to believe?
A false teacher like wierwille who claimed God would teach him “the Word” as it had not been known since the first century and teach it to others by plagiarizing…bastardizing…alchemizing…bestializing…cocainizing…dogmatizing…syncretizing…vandalizing the works of others.
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons…I Timothy 4:1
while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived…II Timothy 3:13
Or
you could believe Jesus Christ– He promised the Holy Spirit, The Advocate, the Spirit of truth who will help you and will be with you FOREVER ! The Holy SpiritCONTINUESthe mission of Jesus Christ! He is The Spiritual Activist, He is our support, He champions the cause of Christ. He confirms the Bible for those who choose to do the will of God.
The three younger members of my fellowship mockingly snickered when pronouncing Jesus's name. They called him Jay-EEE-zuss. Of course, this was acceptable because Jesus was but a mere bastard Jew.
They were "rightly dividing" whatever they were taught by their man of god, the FC, who stood smugly on the shoulders of victor paul wierwille.
I'm not making this up. This is NOT a joke.
They had their own Jesus substitute Victor Paul Wierwille. And those idols are jealous idols.
Anti Christ cult is anti Christ. Except in their “statement of beliefs”. There they sound like a denomination to hide their cultiness.
What I saw over the years was the unending revolving door of non-leadership individuals all participating in the same activity.
Yep. If the kool aid snowstorm promises are verbally maintained but never acknowledged from the top you have a lot of monkey see monkey do phenomena. The most compliant monkeys survive the longest.
My wife and I watched The Three Faces of Eve (1957) - IMDb last night – it is a 1957 American film noir mystery drama film presented in CinemaScope, based on the book of the same name about the life of Chris Costner Sizemore, which was written by psychiatrists Corbett H. Thigpen and Hervey M. Cleckley, who also helped write the screenplay. Sizemore, also known as Eve White, was a woman they suggested might have dissociative identity disorder (then known as multiple personality disorder). Sizemore's identity was concealed in interviews about this film and was not revealed to the public until 1977. The film was directed by Nunnally Johnson. From: The Three Faces of Eve - Wikipedia
The film got me primed to reframe the problem of a pseudo-Christian cult. The narrative of The Three Faces of Eve unravels a mystery. The film depicts a psychiatrist who attempts to understand and deal with two incomplete and inadequate personalities inside Eve. In one session, a third personality emerges, a relatively stable personality named Jane. The psychiatrist eventually prompts his patient to remember a traumatic eventin Eve's childhood. Her grandmother had died when she was six, and according to family custom, relatives were supposed to kiss the dead person at the viewing, making it easier for them to let go. While Eve screams, her mother forces her to kiss the corpse. Apparently, Eve's terror led to the creation of different personalities.
I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to consider indoctrination into a cult as a low-energy trauma. And by no means do I wish to minimize the compounding of high-energy traumasome experienced from sexual molestation, intense psychological and physical abuse from cult-leaders, parents, etc..
I think human beings are capable of enduring very difficult situations, hardships, unpleasant conditions, etc.…. And something else I’ve observed on Grease Spot Café is that we are resilient too – that we are able to withstand a lot of hellish stuff and if given enough time – which varies for everyone – we can recover…survive…and hopefully thrive. My two-bit amateur psychology theory is that as followers of a harmful and abusive cult develop some coping mechanisms in our psyche…processes that help us manage the stress / trauma and optimistically diminish the intensity of the pain. Sometimes it’s easier to go along with the ritualized behavior – somewhat of a go-with-the-flow attitude - to accept a situation, rather than trying to alter or control it.
I’m not suggesting cult-followers develop multiple personalities. For our discussion I’m going with a simple definition:
In psychology, the notion of the self refers to a person’s experience as a single, unitary, autonomous being that is separate from others, experienced with continuity through time and place. The experience of the self includes consciousness of one’s physicality as well as one’s inner character and emotional life.
One of the reasons I study the Bible is for self-improvement to develop my knowledge / wisdom / character. The Bible isn’t my only resource for that – but so that I’m not going all over the map with the influence / inspiration from other books, films, TV, music, art, and even Grease Spot Café – I’m limiting my reference to mostly the Bible for this discussion.
Something the film The Three Faces of Eve did for me in light of these recent posts was get me to re-think a basic Christian concept of self-improvement – the struggle of the unregenerate-selfversus the revitalized-self- - the old manversus the new man…For a Christian who gets suckered into a pseudo-Christian cult, there is a ‘third self’that is put forth as the new man – the ideal you.
I believe wierwille / The Way International hijackedthe abstract idea of the new manmentioned in the epistles of Paul. By taking advantage of a Christian’s desire to better themselves – in a bait-and-switch ploy, wierwille / TWI presented a submissive and compliant attitudeas something to be admired and indicative of Christlike behavior. I think my use of the word ‘hijacked’ is appropriate because it is the unauthorized seizure of a soul’s journey - compelling one toward a different direction or destination– basically using the person for one's own purposes.
So, let’s look at the old manand the new manin the Bible…I’ve put certain words and phrases in a red fontthat are pertinent to our discussion – and we find that in this battle we are not going at it alone – we have the Holy Spirit’s help too!
~ ~ ~ ~
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin — 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
4 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
So… summarizing my thoughts – as a Christian and survivor of a pseudo-Christian cult, i looked at 3 alternatives to create a plan for self-improvement. After which I will submit a redefinition of wierwille’s great principle– which I call the great unprincipled cult-leader.
1. the natural self. Our fallen human nature. The unregenerate person. That’s our unredeemed self. That’s us without any of the light and influence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Keep doing the same old thing. Enjoy the rut. Nothing like a bad habit to depend on for autopilot
2. the supernatural self. The ideal person – the “new” inner self – it’s new in terms of it didn’t exist until the light and influence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit came into your life. There may not be a Stephen-Spielberg-big-Hollywood-production in your life that stands out as when it all began.... thereafter at times we realize we need to get out of a rut…Often a way to break a bad habit is to start a good habit to take its place.
3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So, it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
Jesus was explaining that we cannot control the work of the Holy Spirit. He works in ways we cannot predict or understand.
you’re really the same person but now freed from the control of our fallen nature. There is now a spiritual battle both within and without – inner conflicts from worldly temptations that may still hold their appeal to the typical and personally unique pressures of daily living are unavoidable skirmishes. Philosophers and Diaspora Jewish intellectuals often advocated cultivating the mind, the ‘inner person’ or ‘inner being’, as over the passions of the body. Sometimes they used war imagery to depict this conflict – ‘waging war’, (Romans 7:23) Paul depicts a mind here that has been taken prisoner of war by the members of his body.
Ourold self, thebody of sin (Romans 6:6) are synonymous – and refers to sinful tendencies that are entangled with bodily weaknesses and pleasures. The old selfis ‘dead’ – but this is figurative and not literal. Sin retains a foothold in our humanness. Conceptually it’s not that we have two competing natures – the old and the new. It’s like the supernatural self has been revitalized but we are now aware there’s a part of ourselves finds still shackled to an unredeemed physical body; the term ‘flesh’ is equivalent to the physical body, which can be an instrument for holiness (Romans 6: 19; 12:1 )
According to the Bible humankind was created to enjoy a beautiful planet, relationships without friction, and fellowship without distance. But something went wrong – and something is still wrong, and we know it, both within our world and within ourselves. Religions, philosophy, psychology, sociology, politics, and just about everyone else who doesn’t live under a rock is trying to resolve what went wrong. I for one like to check out all the options and viewpoints available instead of limiting myself to one problematic ideology like wierwille’s theology.
3. the adaptive self- the ‘new you’ as specified by the cult-leader. This may be misrepresented as the supernatural self – the ideal self. How the cult-leader says you should think, and act becomes the new standard – which you are expected to adopt…I got into this on another thread - here and here - so you can check those out another time at your convenience...as it is, this post is too damn long
As an example of modeling counterfeit Christianity, under the pretext of prepping leaders for counseling wierwille would show the way corps some inappropriate video and then handle any shock and disgust of the students by saying stuff like renew your mind or the love of God doesn’t think evil.
~ ~ ~ ~
…and now for the finale…
The great unprincipled cult-leader:
The unscrupulous cult-leader who is deluded can only speak to others who are enamored with his greatness. Through indoctrination the unscrupulous cult-leader in effect teaches his or her ‘creation’ in you (the cultic mindset) – which is an alternate standard of how to think and act – and becomes manifested in the senses realm to the degree you become assimilated in the harmful and controlling cult.
...Instead of ending on a positive note I thought I’d end on a sour note
Well – that’s all for now, folks
Edited by T-Bone say good day, T-Bone..."Good day T-Bone"
The unscrupulous cult-leader who is deluded can only speak to others who are enamored with his greatness. Through indoctrination the unscrupulous cult-leader in effect teaches his or her ‘creation’ in you (the cultic mindset) – which is an alternate standard of how to think and act – and becomes manifested in the senses realm to the degree you become assimilated in the harmful and controlling cult.
Actually, I think that sums things up very nicely, T-Bone. We here can all see the counterfeit "GP" at work within us (well, all of us except one).
Very interesting points...the hypocrisy is glaring cause they clamor about Christ in you constantly , as if that's some kind of power lever to be unleashed to bring stuff to a person and that's called abundance...fake.
According to vp, the word takes the place of the absent Christ. I think twi uses that phrase "Christ in you" to support something Mike has often said in his posts. Since Christ is hidden or not-visible in the 5 senses, it is up to way believers to manifest Christ to the world. So again, the focus is on the individual believer to be "Christ-like" (since he's absent and all) and that gives rise to people following way leaders instead of Christ.
I sent this post to Mike yesterday on the "Absent Christ" thread as a reply to an older post of his where he had written: "How many times does it say Christ is currently HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses?"
My reply was along the line:
"God has always been HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses yet Jesus never called him "the absent God" or even "the absent Father." He never declared to the Jews that the scrolls took the place of the absent God. How close was Jesus with God, his Father in heaven? John 17:20-23 says that's justhow we are to bewith Godandwith him."
According to vp, the word takes the place of the absent Christ. I think twi uses that phrase "Christ in you" to support something Mike has often said in his posts. Since Christ is hidden or not-visible in the 5 senses, it is up to way believers to manifest Christ to the world. So again, the focus is on the individual believer to be "Christ-like" (since he's absent and all) and that gives rise to people following way leaders instead of Christ.
I sent this post to Mike yesterday on the "Absent Christ" thread as a reply to an older post of his where he had written: "How many times does it say Christ is currently HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses?"
My reply was along the line:
"God has always been HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses yet Jesus never called him "the absent God" or even "the absent Father." He never declared to the Jews that the scrolls took the place of the absent God. How close was Jesus with God, his Father in heaven? John 17:20-23 says that's justhow we are to bewith Godandwith him."
Sorry, I didn't see any notification of that post of yours.
The website says they are Christion now, right in the first sentence.
Did I miss that before? It was Biblical Ministry before.
Maybe I'm just crazy . . .
See they ARE changing lol. More whitewash.
I also see their Pentecost article saying “when a person receives the gift of hs they are born again”.
Oh rllllllllllllllllllllllly.
I thought it had something to do with Jesus Christ. They at least got the order wrong and then they sluff off the Savior and New Birth for the Great Principle.
I also see their Pentecost article saying “when a person receives the gift of hs they are born again”.
Oh rllllllllllllllllllllllly.
I thought it had something to do with Jesus Christ. They at least got the order wrong and then they sluff off the Savior and New Birth for the Great Principle.
It’s funny. As much as they try to hide the truth posted on this site it pops up everywhere else. I have no idea who this is but it’s all over search like the truth pops up everywhere despite feeble attempts to whitewash and hide it.
The public sees easily attempts of the elite to avoid accountability.
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Bolshevik
My memory says Wayfers don't self identify as Christians. I seem to remember that word being thought of with a negative connotation. Quickly looking at theway.org site, it's a Biblical ministry.
Bolshevik
In my experience, The Way and its followers did not focus on why Muslims, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, or why they think most other religions were wrong. They were mentioned sometimes. They m
Nathan_Jr
My memory and text messages say the same. My FC said TWI/PFAL/VPW is not a religion. He said he did not consider himself a Christian nor self identify as religious. I asked, "What is religio
Nathan_Jr
A trauma-triggered flashback...
The three younger members of my fellowship mockingly snickered when pronouncing Jesus's name. They called him Jay-EEE-zuss. Of course, this was acceptable because Jesus was but a mere bastard Jew.
They were "rightly dividing" whatever they were taught by their man of god, the FC, who stood smugly on the shoulders of victor paul wierwille.
I'm not making this up. This is NOT a joke.
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Rocky
Did Vic EVER give ANY facts to support ANY of his assertions especially those which apparently differed from generally accepted Christian theology? (rhetorical question)
Edited by Rockyspelling/grammar
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Charity
How was Paul portrayed? Wasn't this when vp said Paul was out of fellowship with God because he had not listened to some prophecies telling him not to go but he went anyway so vp said the most Paul could do was almost convince Agrippa to become a Christian?
I can't remember for sure but vp might even have said that Paul never won anyone to the Lord after this. I have to question if he was accurate about this.
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Charity
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Bolshevik
I sat on the floor listening for years.
Every denomination was mocked in detail. RCs, Methodist, Baptist, and a bunch I can't pronounce. Crosses, statues, hand gestures, prayers. Nothing was sacred.
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Rocky
That's both sad and reflective of long-standing contempt for any denomination by leadership of twi.
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Bolshevik
Perhaps.
What I saw over the years was the unending revolving door of non-leadership individuals all participating in the same activity.
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Rocky
Of course. "leadership" implies followership, or imitation of conduct and values of said leadership.
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Bolshevik
yes. Being a child I imitated the followers. Because followers are also leaders.
At some point, over time, imitation is no longer imitation, I think.
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T-Bone
You have a point - followers becoming leaders - I’m thinking it works like that for a lot of things…I’m a self-taught bass player. At first I imitated my favorite bass players - playing along with the record…when I got comfortable doing that then the creative factor would kick in - eventually reinterpreting a bass line or adding my own riffs or even writing my own tunes.
Another point to consider is who you choose to imitate. What’s noteworthy in the Bible is the transfer of modeling. It’s said of the Thessalonians they became followers - imitators of Paul and his associates AND of the Lord. See I Thessalonians 1:6
Ideally a good Christian leader inspires others to follow them - eventually as followers grow, they no longer need the example of other leaders - they become leaders themselves following the Lord Jesus Christ.
Not sure if I’m expanding on your point - but I’ve seen and experienced both methods of modeling / imitation. The 2 most prevalent modeling / imitation methods in TWI - in my humble opinion anyway - are the wooden mini-wierwille clone and the imitator of Christ. Unfortunately the power structure of TWI favored the wooden mini-wierwille method cuz that’s how you get ahead and gain more power and influence…
as for me - I’m not a type A personality, salesperson or leadership material- I’m more of a tech support and service guy - I love figuring things out, solving problems and helping others.
If I could rewrite a fantasy version of a good TWI , I could see myself being a recording engineer and/or a technical advisor in a research department - I enjoy perusing systematic theologies and commentaries… but I said this is a fantasy - ain’t no way TWI would ever be interested in knowing what legitimate scholars and biblical linguistics and culture experts have to say!
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T-Bone
Are you familiar with the mission of Jesus Christ?
If you are - then you probably realize the bogus 1942 promise of God to wierwille was an egomaniac’s snub of the Holy Spirit!
Remember when Jesus explained his mission to Nicodemus:
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God…John 3: 16 - 21
~ ~ ~ ~
Before his crucifixion Jesus promised he would send his disciples a special gift:
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you…John 14: 16, 17
He said The Advocate, the Spirit of truth will help you and would be with you FOREVER !
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth. There can be no compromise - to dilute the truth is to lie.
~ ~ ~ ~
7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”…John 16: 7 - 15
Jesus was saying the Holy Spirit would CONTINUE the mission of Christ! He’s also reinforcing the teaching role of the Holy Spirit…there’s a lot involved in what Jesus promised. Not only would the Holy Spirit remind them of Jesus’ words and works, as the Advocate He would support and champion their cause. I understand this to mean more than just writing the New Testament documents - since the Holy Spirit is with us He is also the “superintendent” of the Scriptures! That suggests a self-authenticating feature of the Bible as implied in John 7:17:
“Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.”
Metaphysical truth is self-authenticating through the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit.
~ ~ ~ ~
The phony 1942 promise was one of the many ploys wierwille used to hijack as many Christians as he could. During an interview mentioned in the book “The Way: Living in Love” wierwille told Elena Whiteside, The holy spirit field – that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it."
Perhaps wierwille was intoxicated with his own delusions of grandeur - attempting to seize the souls of the young and naive who fell for his pseudo-Christianity scheme – that he was THE Holy Spirit expert.
On page 178 of “The Way Living in Love” wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.”
On page 209 of Whiteside’s book wierwille comments on the content of what he teaches: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit – that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn’t, I dropped.”
~ ~ ~ ~
So, I ask YOU who have been duped by wierwille / PFAL / The Way International – who are you going to believe?
A false teacher like wierwille who claimed God would teach him “the Word” as it had not been known since the first century and teach it to others by plagiarizing…bastardizing…alchemizing…bestializing…cocainizing…dogmatizing…syncretizing…vandalizing the works of others.
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons…I Timothy 4:1
while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived…II Timothy 3:13
Or
you could believe Jesus Christ – He promised the Holy Spirit, The Advocate, the Spirit of truth who will help you and will be with you FOREVER ! The Holy Spirit CONTINUES the mission of Jesus Christ! He is The Spiritual Activist, He is our support, He champions the cause of Christ. He confirms the Bible for those who choose to do the will of God.
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chockfull
They had their own Jesus substitute Victor Paul Wierwille. And those idols are jealous idols.
Anti Christ cult is anti Christ. Except in their “statement of beliefs”. There they sound like a denomination to hide their cultiness.
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chockfull
Yep. If the kool aid snowstorm promises are verbally maintained but never acknowledged from the top you have a lot of monkey see monkey do phenomena. The most compliant monkeys survive the longest.
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T-Bone
My wife and I watched The Three Faces of Eve (1957) - IMDb last night – it is a 1957 American film noir mystery drama film presented in CinemaScope, based on the book of the same name about the life of Chris Costner Sizemore, which was written by psychiatrists Corbett H. Thigpen and Hervey M. Cleckley, who also helped write the screenplay. Sizemore, also known as Eve White, was a woman they suggested might have dissociative identity disorder (then known as multiple personality disorder). Sizemore's identity was concealed in interviews about this film and was not revealed to the public until 1977. The film was directed by Nunnally Johnson. From: The Three Faces of Eve - Wikipedia
The film got me primed to reframe the problem of a pseudo-Christian cult. The narrative of The Three Faces of Eve unravels a mystery. The film depicts a psychiatrist who attempts to understand and deal with two incomplete and inadequate personalities inside Eve. In one session, a third personality emerges, a relatively stable personality named Jane. The psychiatrist eventually prompts his patient to remember a traumatic event in Eve's childhood. Her grandmother had died when she was six, and according to family custom, relatives were supposed to kiss the dead person at the viewing, making it easier for them to let go. While Eve screams, her mother forces her to kiss the corpse. Apparently, Eve's terror led to the creation of different personalities.
I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to consider indoctrination into a cult as a low-energy trauma. And by no means do I wish to minimize the compounding of high-energy trauma some experienced from sexual molestation, intense psychological and physical abuse from cult-leaders, parents, etc..
I think human beings are capable of enduring very difficult situations, hardships, unpleasant conditions, etc.…. And something else I’ve observed on Grease Spot Café is that we are resilient too – that we are able to withstand a lot of hellish stuff and if given enough time – which varies for everyone – we can recover…survive…and hopefully thrive. My two-bit amateur psychology theory is that as followers of a harmful and abusive cult develop some coping mechanisms in our psyche…processes that help us manage the stress / trauma and optimistically diminish the intensity of the pain. Sometimes it’s easier to go along with the ritualized behavior – somewhat of a go-with-the-flow attitude - to accept a situation, rather than trying to alter or control it.
I’m not suggesting cult-followers develop multiple personalities. For our discussion I’m going with a simple definition:
In psychology, the notion of the self refers to a person’s experience as a single, unitary, autonomous being that is separate from others, experienced with continuity through time and place. The experience of the self includes consciousness of one’s physicality as well as one’s inner character and emotional life.
From: Self - IResearchNet
For extra credit you can check out the following hyperlinks
What Is the Self? | Psychology Today
The Self | Psychology Today
Self Concept - Simply Psychology
Self - Wikipedia
Self in Jungian psychology - Wikipedia
What Is a 'Self'? Here Are All the Possibilities | Live Science
~ ~ ~ ~
One of the reasons I study the Bible is for self-improvement to develop my knowledge / wisdom / character. The Bible isn’t my only resource for that – but so that I’m not going all over the map with the influence / inspiration from other books, films, TV, music, art, and even Grease Spot Café – I’m limiting my reference to mostly the Bible for this discussion.
Something the film The Three Faces of Eve did for me in light of these recent posts was get me to re-think a basic Christian concept of self-improvement – the struggle of the unregenerate-self versus the revitalized-self - - the old man versus the new man…For a Christian who gets suckered into a pseudo-Christian cult, there is a ‘third self’ that is put forth as the new man – the ideal you.
I believe wierwille / The Way International hijacked the abstract idea of the new man mentioned in the epistles of Paul. By taking advantage of a Christian’s desire to better themselves – in a bait-and-switch ploy, wierwille / TWI presented a submissive and compliant attitude as something to be admired and indicative of Christlike behavior. I think my use of the word ‘hijacked’ is appropriate because it is the unauthorized seizure of a soul’s journey - compelling one toward a different direction or destination – basically using the person for one's own purposes.
So, let’s look at the old man and the new man in the Bible…I’ve put certain words and phrases in a red font that are pertinent to our discussion – and we find that in this battle we are not going at it alone – we have the Holy Spirit’s help too!
~ ~ ~ ~
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin — 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6
~ ~ ~ ~
4 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 7
~ ~ ~ ~
8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
Romans 8
~ ~ ~ ~
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Romans 12
~ ~ ~ ~
So… summarizing my thoughts – as a Christian and survivor of a pseudo-Christian cult, i looked at 3 alternatives to create a plan for self-improvement. After which I will submit a redefinition of wierwille’s great principle – which I call the great unprincipled cult-leader.
1. the natural self. Our fallen human nature. The unregenerate person. That’s our unredeemed self. That’s us without any of the light and influence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Keep doing the same old thing. Enjoy the rut. Nothing like a bad habit to depend on for autopilot
2. the supernatural self. The ideal person – the “new” inner self – it’s new in terms of it didn’t exist until the light and influence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit came into your life. There may not be a Stephen-Spielberg-big-Hollywood-production in your life that stands out as when it all began.... thereafter at times we realize we need to get out of a rut…Often a way to break a bad habit is to start a good habit to take its place.
3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So, it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
John 3
Jesus was explaining that we cannot control the work of the Holy Spirit. He works in ways we cannot predict or understand.
you’re really the same person but now freed from the control of our fallen nature. There is now a spiritual battle both within and without – inner conflicts from worldly temptations that may still hold their appeal to the typical and personally unique pressures of daily living are unavoidable skirmishes. Philosophers and Diaspora Jewish intellectuals often advocated cultivating the mind, the ‘inner person’ or ‘inner being’, as over the passions of the body. Sometimes they used war imagery to depict this conflict – ‘waging war’, (Romans 7:23) Paul depicts a mind here that has been taken prisoner of war by the members of his body.
Our old self, the body of sin (Romans 6:6) are synonymous – and refers to sinful tendencies that are entangled with bodily weaknesses and pleasures. The old self is ‘dead’ – but this is figurative and not literal. Sin retains a foothold in our humanness. Conceptually it’s not that we have two competing natures – the old and the new. It’s like the supernatural self has been revitalized but we are now aware there’s a part of ourselves finds still shackled to an unredeemed physical body; the term ‘flesh’ is equivalent to the physical body, which can be an instrument for holiness (Romans 6: 19; 12:1 )
According to the Bible humankind was created to enjoy a beautiful planet, relationships without friction, and fellowship without distance. But something went wrong – and something is still wrong, and we know it, both within our world and within ourselves. Religions, philosophy, psychology, sociology, politics, and just about everyone else who doesn’t live under a rock is trying to resolve what went wrong. I for one like to check out all the options and viewpoints available instead of limiting myself to one problematic ideology like wierwille’s theology.
some ideas and notes are from:
MacArthur Study Bibles - Christianbook.com ,
NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, Hardcover: Craig Keener, John Walton: 9780310431589 - Christianbook.com
NIV, Life Application Study Bible, Third Edition, Leathersoft, Brown, Red Letter: Zondervan: 9780310452829: Amazon.com: Books
Inside Out: Crabb, Larry: 9781612913124: Amazon.com: Books
The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business: Duhigg, Charles: 8601406381322: Amazon.com: Books
3. the adaptive self - the ‘new you’ as specified by the cult-leader. This may be misrepresented as the supernatural self – the ideal self. How the cult-leader says you should think, and act becomes the new standard – which you are expected to adopt…I got into this on another thread - here and here - so you can check those out another time at your convenience...as it is, this post is too damn long
As an example of modeling counterfeit Christianity, under the pretext of prepping leaders for counseling wierwille would show the way corps some inappropriate video and then handle any shock and disgust of the students by saying stuff like renew your mind or the love of God doesn’t think evil.
~ ~ ~ ~
…and now for the finale…
The great unprincipled cult-leader:
The unscrupulous cult-leader who is deluded can only speak to others who are enamored with his greatness. Through indoctrination the unscrupulous cult-leader in effect teaches his or her ‘creation’ in you (the cultic mindset) – which is an alternate standard of how to think and act – and becomes manifested in the senses realm to the degree you become assimilated in the harmful and controlling cult.
...Instead of ending on a positive note I thought I’d end on a sour note
Well – that’s all for now, folks
Edited by T-Bonesay good day, T-Bone..."Good day T-Bone"
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Twinky
Actually, I think that sums things up very nicely, T-Bone. We here can all see the counterfeit "GP" at work within us (well, all of us except one).
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Charity
According to vp, the word takes the place of the absent Christ. I think twi uses that phrase "Christ in you" to support something Mike has often said in his posts. Since Christ is hidden or not-visible in the 5 senses, it is up to way believers to manifest Christ to the world. So again, the focus is on the individual believer to be "Christ-like" (since he's absent and all) and that gives rise to people following way leaders instead of Christ.
I sent this post to Mike yesterday on the "Absent Christ" thread as a reply to an older post of his where he had written: "How many times does it say Christ is currently HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses?"
My reply was along the line:
"God has always been HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses yet Jesus never called him "the absent God" or even "the absent Father." He never declared to the Jews that the scrolls took the place of the absent God. How close was Jesus with God, his Father in heaven? John 17:20-23 says that's just how we are to be with God and with him."
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Mike
Sorry, I didn't see any notification of that post of yours.
I will head over there now and look at it.
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Bolshevik
https://thewayinternational.com/
The website says they are Christion now, right in the first sentence.
Did I miss that before? It was Biblical Ministry before.
Maybe I'm just crazy . . .
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chockfull
See they ARE changing lol. More whitewash.
I also see their Pentecost article saying “when a person receives the gift of hs they are born again”.
Oh rllllllllllllllllllllllly.
I thought it had something to do with Jesus Christ. They at least got the order wrong and then they sluff off the Savior and New Birth for the Great Principle.
A cult with whitewash.
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Bolshevik
Even TWI utilizes GSC for their own purposes.
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T-Bone
Bolshevik, you’re probably right!
maybe anytime Grease Spotters revise / correct some TWI-doctrine they should end the post with “you’re welcome”.
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OldSkool
Your not. That's newer verbage and they moved the usual line if bs down the page further and made it sound like a means to an end....
"Our fundamental structure for carrying out the heart of The Way Ministry is Biblical research, teaching, and fellowship"
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chockfull
It’s funny. As much as they try to hide the truth posted on this site it pops up everywhere else. I have no idea who this is but it’s all over search like the truth pops up everywhere despite feeble attempts to whitewash and hide it.
The public sees easily attempts of the elite to avoid accountability.
https://jashow.org/articles/jesus-according-to-the-way-international/
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chockfull
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/1988/february-19/infighting-trims-branches-of-way-international.html
Christianity today article - its old but the only reference ever in that mag to the Way.
Same issues then as now. Same production of old wineskin doctrine with new packaging in any decade.
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