There is no place where the 1942 promise is mentioned in the collaterals... I dont think it is even hinted at....
I want to do a before and after comparison in the collaterals they sell now in the TWI Bookstore.
3 minutes ago, OldSkool said:
MIke -- to be clear Ive wasted enough time messing with you on GSC. Ive seen you drag out topics, make them off topic, disregard evidence, change your position, change word definitions, change history, change scripture meaning, change reality so your cognitive dissonance is at a comfortable level and all so you can uphold wierwille. That's what I mean by intellectual dishonesty. And you have been posting here for 20 years and now you are acting like nobody has ever pointed out errors in the collaterals? That's you moving the goal posts...more intellectual dishonesty...Mike I was a leader in the same cult..I know all the tactics...you are completely transparent to me in your goals to bring pflap to GSC so you can convert us back into the same trap you are mired in. Im not interested and Im not wasting time on your homework assignments...plus I gave you enough material in that link on the bluebook if you really want to get into the collaterals start there.
Just now, OldSkool said:
you can do just that...you have the old copies and you can get the new ones and come show me where Im wrong...
I am trying to mine your memory for labor savings.
SURELY you can remember ONE change in the books!
SURELY your x can remember one.
Im not playing along...your tactics are completely transparent...why on eart would I waste time putting anything together for you. Your an internet troll who is trolling a forum board of peole who have been damaged by the way international, an abusive cult founded by victor paul wierwille, why on earth would I spend any time on your requests.
For those reading along, John Jeudes has a website that details some of the information Mike is asking me to provide...Mile wont go near this website or the link I provided on the Blue Book by Raf..but he want me to compile a list of changes the way international has made in their books over the years...riiiiight...
Both OldScool and someone else answered you on the previous page. OldScool's link should keep you busy for quite awhile.
Hes trying to do what he accuse others of...that gotcha thing...Oldskool wont waste his time providing a track changes list to show the collaterals have been edited half to death so it all must be a lie...not gonna work.
That's what I mean by intellectual dishonesty. And you have been posting here for 20 years and now you are acting like nobody has ever pointed out errors in the collaterals? That's you moving the goal posts...more intellectual dishonesty...
That is not what I am doing. The supposed errors pointed out here are a totally separate matter.
I am looking for what I would consider TWI errors in making changes.
Would you be more comfortable with being a VPW bobblehead? I mean in a figurative sense of course.
Now when you say “the collaterals” what specifically are you referring to? I mean we had a cool conversation I remember about the “why division” chapter in the green book. That chapter specifically seems real delusional. Maybe you mean something else though?
Over used a camera analogy? That takes pictures off arseholes victim blaming?
4 Crucified or The Day JC Died?
What do YOU mean by “collaterals” that you can discipline your life to like a moral code?
There is no place where the 1942 promise is mentioned in the collaterals... I dont think it is even hinted at....
I never said it was in the collaterals, I put it out there as a bullshonta story that wierwille fabricated to prove he was some great one....if the man lied that big on that point alone, according to wierwille's own logic, he is lying about everything else...remember if the Bible fails on just one point the rest is trash? By his own words.
Hes trying to do what he accuse others of...that gotcha thing...Oldskool wont waste his time providing a track changes list to show the collaterals have been edited half to death so it all must be a lie...not gonna work.
Actually, I was saving a rigorous reading and response to all the posts on this thread for the Christmas lull in my business that starts tomorrow.
Is your Blue Book link on this thread? If so I will eventually find it.
My purpose it to check up on TWI's editing integrity. I don't trust them there at all yet.
I am happy for their baby steps toward PFAL, but think they still have a ways to go to meet the standards of VPW's final instructions to us. Their handling of the collaterals these 20 years is something I want to see first hand. That is very labor intensive, comparing all the collaterals, old and new.
If I had one example of what I perceived you have advertised, that would save me MUCH time in holding their feet to the fire on proper handling of the collaterals.
Oh, what you'd consider. Truth be told you won't consider anything as an error in PLAF. So why waste our time?
More intellectual dishonesty from you.
I am considering that TWI could have mishandled the collaterals under LCM's rule in the years prior to the release of the year 2000 editions to the collateral books.
I am considering that TWI could have mishandled the collaterals under LCM's rule in the years prior to the release of the year 2000 editions to the collateral books.
I figure as much. This isn't about how imperfect are the original collaterals. This is about did The Way change the God breathed collaterals to suit their purpose. Once again, you're wasting our time and being intellectually dishonest.
Actually, I was saving a rigorous reading and response to all the posts on this thread for the Christmas lull in my business that starts tomorrow.
Run, rabbit run, Mike always has to go tend to his universe when irrefutable evidence is presented that wierwille and twi we're/are fakes. Intellectual dishonesty, plus his brain seems to clamp shut in the face of disagreement.
Plenty of time for other stuff, why no time to answer direct questions?
He's too important..he has to tend to atom smashing, trolling internet forums, hassling kids on Facebook, tagging along as a mascot for appearances sake in his neuroscience group, and especially mentally short circuiting from irrefutable evidence he refuses to watch/read/or acknowledge. He's a busy guy.
If I had one example of what I perceived you have advertised, that would save me MUCH time in holding their feet to the fire on proper handling of the collaterals.
like you have some type of authority over the directors...besides likely being an embarrassment with your online persona...holy Shonta. Delusional.
chockful warned me that the term “snapped” is taken,
and is a nasty word in our culture.
(see end of Page 1 for chockful’s tip to me)
My APOLOGIES to all, because my use of that word meant some hurtful things to many here. I am sorry for that. I have great sorrow that I caused you ANY degree of sorrow by my use of that word.
I know that some sorrow was caused, even though I did not intend it. I will look at my text’s every use of the offending word, one by one, and deal with them a little later.
The common usage I was totally unaware of.
I verified chockful’s tip at google.
(see my response to chockful in Pages 2 ff)
The software, understandably, prevents an edit this late to the opening post, so in addition to this notice(an E.C.N. of sorts), I will completely re-write the opening post with a new set of terms. I already knew that A.S.M. for the opposite of the offending word was just a lame, temporary term.
Please compare this with the opening post on this thread.
This is kind of phenomenon I saw often in TWI-1, and in MY OPINION it is part of how inappropriate idolization of VPW happened with some people.
A common phenomenon in human cognition is the ability to quickly crystalize a whole new perspective or paradigm, and quickly jumping to complex conclusions or decisions, like in a rush to judgement. I’ll call it a Digital Decision. Because it is like going from one state to the another, spending next to no time in between.It could also be called a Fast Complex Decision.
I imagine that in many situations this ability to quickly crystalize a large impression is a useful skill. That is why it is a common phenomenon: it is built into our DNA. This kind of Digital Decision making could have all sorts of survival values in the wild.
This kind of fast change notion finds applications in the electronics industry, and can be likened to the 1’s and 0’s in computers. Other benefits of fast changes are in old fashioned light switches with a loud mechanical noise coming from their actuating, making them easy to feel and hear which mode they are in.
But fast changes can be dangerous when applied to the wrong situation In our lives some situations require long ponderous thought, and not-so-fast action. Let’s come up with a better name for these terms, why don’t we?How about we find one with the terminology of Acts 17:10-11, where the Bereans did not jump to conclusions.
Until then, I’ll stick with my digital and analog model A not-so-fast decision process can be called an Analog Decision. An analog switch can swing from hi to low as a dimmer switch, and work at all the points in between.An analog switch is smooth moving switch, that rests where you put it. You can move a dimmer switch from off to on VERY gradually, taking some time to get used to the light.
The Bereans who took in the Word that Paul spoke, held it in for deep pondering, worked the scriptures day after day, talked with each other a lot during this scripture party.They probably had only one town “Bible” to work with. They compared impressions with each there of how Paul’s word fit. And then they gradually arrived at the point where they were ready to fully believe Paul.
“And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.”
Do Digital Decisions also happen in the Bible?Yes. Compare this Berean Analog Decision to the day of Pentecost, when 5,000 people heard the S.I.T. miracle (?and maybe saw the tongues like as of fire?) and they all believed that same day, real quick.And how many “Bibles” did they have with them to search the scriptures? Probably none; too heavy for travellers. It looks like the fast Digital Decision there was good and godly.
This same powerful human dynamic of DDs and Ads, can be hijacked by the devil, and then the they both can be misapplied and do harm. But otherwise they are both good, and from God, like free will.
It looks to me that a D.D. was involved with Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus.
*/*/*/*/*
I have been thinking about this phenomenon, these DDs and Ads, ever since my first twig fellowship in 1971 where it happened almost regularly with teenagers.Just two days into my posting here, 20 years ago, I brought it up.
A blast from the past:
Posted December 27, 200211:06 pst(slightly edited)
I'm amazed at how impatient everyone is to get all this in a thumbnail. It reminds me of early 1987, when there was almost no info flowing and everything was hush-hush, yet within months everyone had made up their mind which splinter (or not)to be a part of.
With relatively no information to lean on, decisions were made back then that have never been reexamined, only built on, or piled on.
I'm glad I was taught to take it slower.
It’s sad how much information was lost or never considered by those who crystallized their stand on emotion and/or whichever leader happened to tickled their fancy.
In those early days, after the 1986 meltdown, I would always shop around for info because I wanted to decide more carefully. I noticed that no one else here in SD did that except for one other person.
When JL from CES would blow into town once every year, me and that one other person would always attend. We two “ringers” would always be the only people from the other major SD camp at the time, the GeerSplinters, as we mostly attended those fellowships at that time.
No CES people would talk to GeerSplinters, and no GeerSplinters would talk to CESers.We two ringers straddled that line for 10 years.
Everyone huddled into a group that was quickly decided upon, and once there, the leaders would tell [or inspire] them to M&A all other grad groups.
The same applied to the Craigites here, but they were in much smaller numbers. The majority here went with Geer, and only one small twig went with LCM.
The same applies to most GreaseSpotters in my opinion. Lots of digging into their positions, little knowledge of what the others are doing.
I urge patience and info gathering.
*/*/*/*
I have posted on this since several times using terminology like rush to judgement, quick crystallization, and jumping to concussions.
Only just recently have I seen that this notion of Digital Decisions applies to several posters’ life stories, and to Charlene in particular, by her description.
I see both Analog Decisions and Digital Decisions as good skills that can go wrong.
These kinds of decisions are made in sports all the time, especially in baseball where some interesting pondering can happen.
My hunch is that Digital Decisions to direct hyper-love toward twi/vpw, are very similar to Digital Decisions to direct hyper-hate toward twi/vpw.
Some people are more prone to ADs and some are more prone to DDs.
I distinctly remember being jealous of DD prone grads in my early years. My slowness to commit ended up later helping me, but back then it was sometimes a liability.I missed out on a lot, by being too careful.
I felt I was a very slow learner, and I wanted to be able to jump in all the way. I was an AD person to excess, in my current opinion. After a lifetime of pondering all this I see that I was excessive in backing off from full commitment. It was fear. I consider it a character trait, a flaw of mine, that needs working on.
Similar introspection may be useful for those who may be the more DD types.
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outandabout
I copied the emotion graph and wanted to comment on how it made me aware of the wide range of emotions we as humans are capable of. A little off topic but looking at it reminds me that we were taught
WordWolf
It's also interesting to see what happened and what did NOT happen. We all know that vpw never went to his congregation and confessed his sins against them. That would have been required after havi
chockfull
I think when VPW taught that sincerity is no guarantee for the truth that is what they call a “Freudian slip”.
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Mike
No, that's not what I mean.
I mean a change in the collaterals.
There is no place where the 1942 promise is mentioned in the collaterals... I dont think it is even hinted at....
I want to do a before and after comparison in the collaterals they sell now in the TWI Bookstore.
THAT's what I thought you were saying. You mentioned your wife working on changes for years.
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OldSkool
you can do just that...you have the old copies and you can get the new ones and come show me where Im wrong...
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OldSkool
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Mike
I am trying to mine your memory for labor savings.
SURELY you can remember ONE change in the books!
SURELY your x can remember one.
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OldSkool
Im not playing along...your tactics are completely transparent...why on eart would I waste time putting anything together for you. Your an internet troll who is trolling a forum board of peole who have been damaged by the way international, an abusive cult founded by victor paul wierwille, why on earth would I spend any time on your requests.
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So_crates
Both OldScool and Chockfull answered you on the previous page. OldScool's link should keep you busy for quite awhile.
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OldSkool
For those reading along, John Jeudes has a website that details some of the information Mike is asking me to provide...Mile wont go near this website or the link I provided on the Blue Book by Raf..but he want me to compile a list of changes the way international has made in their books over the years...riiiiight...
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/tw_new.htm
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OldSkool
Hes trying to do what he accuse others of...that gotcha thing...Oldskool wont waste his time providing a track changes list to show the collaterals have been edited half to death so it all must be a lie...not gonna work.
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Mike
That is not what I am doing. The supposed errors pointed out here are a totally separate matter.
I am looking for what I would consider TWI errors in making changes.
You are reading my intentions incorrectly
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So_crates
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OldSkool
I never said it was in the collaterals, I put it out there as a bullshonta story that wierwille fabricated to prove he was some great one....if the man lied that big on that point alone, according to wierwille's own logic, he is lying about everything else...remember if the Bible fails on just one point the rest is trash? By his own words.
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OldSkool
Who cares what you consider...Im not trying to meet your fantasy land standards that move like shifting sand. Deal with the two links I posted.
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Mike
Actually, I was saving a rigorous reading and response to all the posts on this thread for the Christmas lull in my business that starts tomorrow.
Is your Blue Book link on this thread? If so I will eventually find it.
My purpose it to check up on TWI's editing integrity. I don't trust them there at all yet.
I am happy for their baby steps toward PFAL, but think they still have a ways to go to meet the standards of VPW's final instructions to us. Their handling of the collaterals these 20 years is something I want to see first hand. That is very labor intensive, comparing all the collaterals, old and new.
If I had one example of what I perceived you have advertised, that would save me MUCH time in holding their feet to the fire on proper handling of the collaterals.
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So_crates
Oh, what you'd consider. Truth be told you won't consider anything as an error in PLAF. So why waste our time?
More intellectual dishonesty from you.
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Mike
I am considering that TWI could have mishandled the collaterals under LCM's rule in the years prior to the release of the year 2000 editions to the collateral books.
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So_crates
I figure as much. This isn't about how imperfect are the original collaterals. This is about did The Way change the God breathed collaterals to suit their purpose. Once again, you're wasting our time and being intellectually dishonest.
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OldSkool
https://web.archive.org/web/20030713171917/http://www.livingepistlessociety.org/10Blue2.htm
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/tw_new.htm
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rsr_currentResearch.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=997qIplM1uQ&t=7s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtJBD4hW6go
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OldSkool
Run, rabbit run, Mike always has to go tend to his universe when irrefutable evidence is presented that wierwille and twi we're/are fakes. Intellectual dishonesty, plus his brain seems to clamp shut in the face of disagreement.
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chockfull
Still waiting on the explanation of what specifically in “the collaterals” it is that you are clinging to.
Detail not just a worn out catchphrase.
Plenty of time for other stuff, why no time to answer direct questions?
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OldSkool
He's too important..he has to tend to atom smashing, trolling internet forums, hassling kids on Facebook, tagging along as a mascot for appearances sake in his neuroscience group, and especially mentally short circuiting from irrefutable evidence he refuses to watch/read/or acknowledge. He's a busy guy.
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OldSkool
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Mike
. Late EDIT:
chockful warned me that the term “snapped” is taken,
and is a nasty word in our culture.
(see end of Page 1 for chockful’s tip to me)
My APOLOGIES to all, because my use of that word meant some hurtful things to many here. I am sorry for that. I have great sorrow that I caused you ANY degree of sorrow by my use of that word.
I know that some sorrow was caused, even though I did not intend it. I will look at my text’s every use of the offending word, one by one, and deal with them a little later.
The common usage I was totally unaware of.
I verified chockful’s tip at google.
(see my response to chockful in Pages 2 ff)
The software, understandably, prevents an edit this late to the opening post, so in addition to this notice (an E.C.N. of sorts), I will completely re-write the opening post with a new set of terms. I already knew that A.S.M. for the opposite of the offending word was just a lame, temporary term.
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Mike
Might any mods place this at the start and/or the beginning of this thread's opening post?
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Mike
Jumping to Conclusions in a Rush to Judgement
a RE-WRITE
Please compare this with the opening post on this thread.
This is kind of phenomenon I saw often in TWI-1, and in MY OPINION it is part of how inappropriate idolization of VPW happened with some people.
A common phenomenon in human cognition is the ability to quickly crystalize a whole new perspective or paradigm, and quickly jumping to complex conclusions or decisions, like in a rush to judgement. I’ll call it a Digital Decision. Because it is like going from one state to the another, spending next to no time in between. It could also be called a Fast Complex Decision.
I imagine that in many situations this ability to quickly crystalize a large impression is a useful skill. That is why it is a common phenomenon: it is built into our DNA. This kind of Digital Decision making could have all sorts of survival values in the wild.
This kind of fast change notion finds applications in the electronics industry, and can be likened to the 1’s and 0’s in computers. Other benefits of fast changes are in old fashioned light switches with a loud mechanical noise coming from their actuating, making them easy to feel and hear which mode they are in.
But fast changes can be dangerous when applied to the wrong situation In our lives some situations require long ponderous thought, and not-so-fast action. Let’s come up with a better name for these terms, why don’t we? How about we find one with the terminology of Acts 17:10-11, where the Bereans did not jump to conclusions.
Until then, I’ll stick with my digital and analog model A not-so-fast decision process can be called an Analog Decision. An analog switch can swing from hi to low as a dimmer switch, and work at all the points in between. An analog switch is smooth moving switch, that rests where you put it. You can move a dimmer switch from off to on VERY gradually, taking some time to get used to the light.
The Bereans who took in the Word that Paul spoke, held it in for deep pondering, worked the scriptures day after day, talked with each other a lot during this scripture party. They probably had only one town “Bible” to work with. They compared impressions with each there of how Paul’s word fit. And then they gradually arrived at the point where they were ready to fully believe Paul.
“And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.”
Do Digital Decisions also happen in the Bible? Yes. Compare this Berean Analog Decision to the day of Pentecost, when 5,000 people heard the S.I.T. miracle (?and maybe saw the tongues like as of fire?) and they all believed that same day, real quick. And how many “Bibles” did they have with them to search the scriptures? Probably none; too heavy for travellers. It looks like the fast Digital Decision there was good and godly.
This same powerful human dynamic of DDs and Ads, can be hijacked by the devil, and then the they both can be misapplied and do harm. But otherwise they are both good, and from God, like free will.
It looks to me that a D.D. was involved with Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus.
*/*/*/*/*
I have been thinking about this phenomenon, these DDs and Ads, ever since my first twig fellowship in 1971 where it happened almost regularly with teenagers. Just two days into my posting here, 20 years ago, I brought it up.
A blast from the past:
Posted December 27, 2002 11:06 pst (slightly edited)
I'm amazed at how impatient everyone is to get all this in a thumbnail. It reminds me of early 1987, when there was almost no info flowing and everything was hush-hush, yet within months everyone had made up their mind which splinter (or not) to be a part of.
With relatively no information to lean on, decisions were made back then that have never been reexamined, only built on, or piled on.
I'm glad I was taught to take it slower.
It’s sad how much information was lost or never considered by those who crystallized their stand on emotion and/or whichever leader happened to tickled their fancy.
In those early days, after the 1986 meltdown, I would always shop around for info because I wanted to decide more carefully. I noticed that no one else here in SD did that except for one other person.
When JL from CES would blow into town once every year, me and that one other person would always attend. We two “ringers” would always be the only people from the other major SD camp at the time, the GeerSplinters, as we mostly attended those fellowships at that time.
No CES people would talk to GeerSplinters, and no GeerSplinters would talk to CESers. We two ringers straddled that line for 10 years.
Everyone huddled into a group that was quickly decided upon, and once there, the leaders would tell [or inspire] them to M&A all other grad groups.
The same applied to the Craigites here, but they were in much smaller numbers. The majority here went with Geer, and only one small twig went with LCM.
The same applies to most GreaseSpotters in my opinion. Lots of digging into their positions, little knowledge of what the others are doing.
I urge patience and info gathering.
*/*/*/*
I have posted on this since several times using terminology like rush to judgement, quick crystallization, and jumping to concussions.
Only just recently have I seen that this notion of Digital Decisions applies to several posters’ life stories, and to Charlene in particular, by her description.
I see both Analog Decisions and Digital Decisions as good skills that can go wrong.
These kinds of decisions are made in sports all the time, especially in baseball where some interesting pondering can happen.
My hunch is that Digital Decisions to direct hyper-love toward twi/vpw, are very similar to Digital Decisions to direct hyper-hate toward twi/vpw.
Some people are more prone to ADs and some are more prone to DDs.
I distinctly remember being jealous of DD prone grads in my early years. My slowness to commit ended up later helping me, but back then it was sometimes a liability. I missed out on a lot, by being too careful.
I felt I was a very slow learner, and I wanted to be able to jump in all the way. I was an AD person to excess, in my current opinion. After a lifetime of pondering all this I see that I was excessive in backing off from full commitment. It was fear. I consider it a character trait, a flaw of mine, that needs working on.
Similar introspection may be useful for those who may be the more DD types.
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