What makes you think these scholarly types are 5 senses as opposed to Christian?
Oh, I expect that lots of Christians are that type, but how many have a goal of serving others with all nine all the time?
How many of them are capable of receiving and acting on a revelation from the Author that will pit them against all the leadership of their denomination and ruin their careers. Hows many of them would have the fight in them to win such a skirmish?
One of the crazy things I learned with the Dead cover bands is dance to the Garcia diddling they do so well. Somehow I learned I could dance to the lead guitarists by "playing the air guitar" with my feet. So far I only fell once!
Sounds fun! I was def a Dead fan...of course waaay back then psychedelics were involved...lol...they're actually more enjoyable sober. Sounds like a fun group.
Oh, I expect that lots of Christians are that type, but how many have a goal of serving others with all nine all the time?
How many of them are capable of receiving and acting on a revelation from the Author that will pit them against all the leadership of their denomination and ruin their careers. Hows many of them would have the fight in them to win such a skirmish?
All 9 all the time. Boy you are a non stop fountain of Way ministry catchphrases that are void of meaning and content. That frankly doesn’t happen anywhere in TWI.
All Christians are capable of receiving and acting on revelation from the Holy Spirit that will lead to them suffering persecution and enduring . See Foxes book of martyrs sometime.
Also, getting revelation from the Author that pitted him against the reformed church that ordained him didn’t happen to VP. He showed himself to be a brawler and striker publishing a paper criticizing his denominations Mission work overseas. And they were investigating him for disciplinary action due to the reports of an affair with his secretary. He fled and started a ministry ahead of any possible disciplinary council meetings.
All of this was way before any controversial books were published.
I guess that history is getting written a few posts at a time ….
Sounds fun! I was def a Dead fan...of course waaay back then psychedelics were involved...lol...they're actually more enjoyable sober. Sounds like a fun group.
The Deadhead community reminds me of TWI-1 in the 1979s. They maintain the peace and love of the late Sixties. But most of them totally missed the origins if the Dead in Ken Kesey and his experiments in primitive Christianity. The hippies moving PFAL out of Ohio was a part of Kesey's huge cultural experiment. My mission is to show them the Kesey Christian influence.
The Deadhead community reminds me of TWI-1 in the 1979s. They maintain the peace and love of the late Sixties. But most of them totally missed the origins if the Dead in Ken Kesey and his experiments in primitive Christianity. The hippies moving PFAL out of Ohio was a part of Kesey's huge cultural experiment. My mission is to show them the Kesey Christian influence.
Cool ..I'll check out Ken Kesey a little further...didn't know there was a Dead connection and only though of him in light Of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest...classic movie but I believe he wrote the novel.
Cool ..I'll check out Ken Kesey a little further...didn't know there was a Dead connection and only though of him in light Of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest...classic movie but I believe he wrote the novel.
Yes, he wrote that and the book started the hippie thing.
As in Luke 23:43? The criminal would be unconscious in paradise with the master? No, that verse doesn’t teach it. That verse just got its comma moved to reflect it..
There is no punctuation in the Greek. How then could it be moved?
I’ve tried to find other verses in Luke where Jesus reminds his audience that he is speaking to them on the same day that they are listening to him.
MOREOVER, Jesus and those two criminals knew that day on the cross was their last. Would that dying criminal need to be reminded that the day Jesus was speaking was the day he was speaking? Which other day, if not today?
But, hey, if there is a religious theological position to advance, and one clings and clutches to inerrancy, well, one will just have to MAKE it fit, like a hand in a…
How many of them are capable of receiving and acting on a revelation from the Author that will pit them against all the leadership of their denomination and ruin their careers. Hows many of them would have the fight in them to win such a skirmish?
Sounds like you are describing the good ol days of TWI. Sounds like you are describing the dupes who sat at the feet of Vic.
I have posted a little on this before. It is a big story.
Before I crystalized on the collaterals in 1998, I had a totally different theory that started in 1987, which was the 20th anniversary of the Summer of Love. Lots of TV documentaries and magazine articles were pumping the history of the hippies.
I was stewing over the collapse of the ministry that started a year prior, and continued to get even worse.
The media nostalgia all around was constantly reminding me of the good old hippie days in TWI-1, years earlier with its Woodstock continuation every August.
I wondered in those early, already wobbly days of TWI-2 in 1987, what was that magical hippie element in the Seventies that made the ministry wonderful?
As I thought on this, and recorded TV shows and clipped newspaper and magazine articles on the Sixties, it seemed like VPW tried to get the PFAL teaching out of Ohio for years, unsuccessfully.
He went to other States, to England, India, Samoa, and I think South America to teach the class live, but nothing much stuck.
Then he films the class, and immediately afterward went to San Francisco to meet the hippies, and maybe teach the class, or a fraction of it LIVE to hippies.The film class had only just arrived at HQ from the developers days before his departure. He only watched the first half hour and was off to see the hippies.
It was from that time on that the ministry started exploding out of Ohio.
It looked to me that adding the hippie element to the PFAL teachings made it all zing just right, and the hippies moved the Word out of Ohio finally.
Look at johniam’s “Cheerfulness Report” and how it grew and grew, and then declined and declined.Simultaneous with the cheerfulness decline, was the sterilizing of the hippie element out of the ministry, its attitudes, and its music.
I felt like Archimedes in his tub shouting Eureka that day in 1987!
PFAL + hippie = cheerful loving ministry
PFAL - hippie = meltdown ministry
The math told me to investigate the hippie element and I did.
It went something like this:
Kesey --> Pranksters --> [ Heefner & Doop with Jesus Freaks ]
So, in 1987 I started studying the mystery Hippie Element that made the ministry zing so well in the early days.
Early in this research I saw it was right to zero in on Kesey.It was in his later writings that I found him admitting to this secret Christian influence he was attempting in the Sixties. I verified what I had found when someone told me that Kesey was in the White Pages.
So in the early 1990s I called him a bunch of times. His wife answered most of the times, but she proved very helpful in filling in gaps for my research. Finally Ken answered and I got to just say thanks for his work, because his wife had acted as his secretary in earlier calls. He was a trip, and a major influencer of the 20th century. When LSD was legal, Kesey hired the Grateful Dead for their very first gig to play at his acid parties.They were his house band for a while circa 1966.
There is no punctuation in the Greek. How then could it be moved?
I’ve tried to find other verses in Luke where Jesus reminds his audience that he is speaking to them on the same day that they are listening to him.
MOREOVER, Jesus and those two criminals knew that day on the cross was their last. Would that dying criminal need to be reminded that the day Jesus was speaking was the day he was speaking? Which other day, if not today?
But, hey, if there is a religious theological position to advance, and one clings and clutches to inerrancy, well, one will just have to MAKE it fit, like a hand in a…
Are you telling me right now, in modern 2022,
that in the Olden Days they never spoke this way ?
(...but that if they did, it would have been captured at least twice in the Gospels ???...)
Sounds fun! I was def a Dead fan...of course waaay back then psychedelics were involved...lol...they're actually more enjoyable sober. Sounds like a fun group.
The modern Deadheads have matured and most of the psychedelics are gone, at least from sight. Every several months some one person is obviously tripping, but it is nothing like the college scene in the 70s. I hear of someone doing it once a year occasionally, but it is not the focus at all like it used to be.
There are doctors, lawyers, accountants, and chiropractors in the Deadhead community now, and 3 generations on the dance floors. They are gentle and kind, and the remnants of the peace and love hippies. They call the weekly Dead cover band shows "church."
Are you telling me right now, in modern 2022,
that in the Olden Days they never spoke this way ?
We really don't know how people spoke in the "Olden Days". It would be erroneous to assume their vocal patterns, emphatic pauses, modifiers and so on would parallel modern day spoken English.
All 9 all the time. Boy you are a non stop fountain of Way ministry catchphrases that are void of meaning and content. That frankly doesn’t happen anywhere in TWI.
-I agree to some of that. It was a goal, but rarely realized. I would see micro-spurts of it in my life once in a while, but it was mostly grace. I still look for it as we all learn more.
All Christians are capable of receiving and acting on revelation from the Holy Spirit that will lead to them suffering persecution and enduring . See Foxes book of martyrs sometime.
-Capable yess, but like us at TWI in the dry years, those workers with the texts were ALSO pretty hard of hearing with Christ's ears behind their ears. I'd bet many of them thought personal revelation died with the apostles.
Also, getting revelation from the Author that pitted him against the reformed church that ordained him didn’t happen to VP.
-There you go again telling God what He can and cannot do. God can't go giving His revelations to a sinner! Is that how the prohibition goes?
Are you telling me that the reformed church could have pulled me out of the spiritual gutter better than those 3 hippie chicks with PFAL who did the actual pulling?
He showed himself to be a brawler and striker publishing a paper criticizing his denominations Mission work overseas.
-He showed himself willing and able to face the failed church system and find workarounds that actually worked. There is no way a Oral Roberts or a Billy Graham or a BG Leonard could have reached me and the hippies. ONLY vpw was up to that task. OLLY vpw dared to believe God was into getting a job done and could work with common sinners, like all of us. I am so glad I did not get introduced to the Bible and "recognized" churchianity at the same time.
Well, I just blanket believed the stuff about the punctuation moving around and never really thought further until you mentioned it.
I know.
victor didn’t want you to pay attention, or hoped you wouldn’t. All hucksters depend on the blasé credulousness of their audience for their tricks to work.
We really don't know how people spoke in the "Olden Days". It would be erroneous to assume their vocal patterns, emphatic pauses, modifiers and so on would parallel modern day spoken English.
I know for sure that all the Romans spoke with a perfect British accent in those olden days.
Out of curiosity, were you involved in the Churches before wierwille?
Yes, I was being warped by the RC school system in my preteen youth, and at the same time conducted studies in Comparative Religions 101 with my Protestant playmates.
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outandabout
I copied the emotion graph and wanted to comment on how it made me aware of the wide range of emotions we as humans are capable of. A little off topic but looking at it reminds me that we were taught
WordWolf
It's also interesting to see what happened and what did NOT happen. We all know that vpw never went to his congregation and confessed his sins against them. That would have been required after havi
chockfull
I think when VPW taught that sincerity is no guarantee for the truth that is what they call a “Freudian slip”.
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Mike
Oh, I expect that lots of Christians are that type, but how many have a goal of serving others with all nine all the time?
How many of them are capable of receiving and acting on a revelation from the Author that will pit them against all the leadership of their denomination and ruin their careers. Hows many of them would have the fight in them to win such a skirmish?
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OldSkool
Sounds fun! I was def a Dead fan...of course waaay back then psychedelics were involved...lol...they're actually more enjoyable sober. Sounds like a fun group.
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chockfull
All 9 all the time. Boy you are a non stop fountain of Way ministry catchphrases that are void of meaning and content. That frankly doesn’t happen anywhere in TWI.
All Christians are capable of receiving and acting on revelation from the Holy Spirit that will lead to them suffering persecution and enduring . See Foxes book of martyrs sometime.
Also, getting revelation from the Author that pitted him against the reformed church that ordained him didn’t happen to VP. He showed himself to be a brawler and striker publishing a paper criticizing his denominations Mission work overseas. And they were investigating him for disciplinary action due to the reports of an affair with his secretary. He fled and started a ministry ahead of any possible disciplinary council meetings.
All of this was way before any controversial books were published.
I guess that history is getting written a few posts at a time ….
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Mike
The Deadhead community reminds me of TWI-1 in the 1979s. They maintain the peace and love of the late Sixties. But most of them totally missed the origins if the Dead in Ken Kesey and his experiments in primitive Christianity. The hippies moving PFAL out of Ohio was a part of Kesey's huge cultural experiment. My mission is to show them the Kesey Christian influence.
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OldSkool
Cool ..I'll check out Ken Kesey a little further...didn't know there was a Dead connection and only though of him in light Of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest...classic movie but I believe he wrote the novel.
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Mike
Yes, he wrote that and the book started the hippie thing.
The book is a trojan horse for the 4 Gospels.
Jack Nicholson played Jesus.
The Cliff Notes veryify this.
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OldSkool
No way! I'll def. check it out...very cool.
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Nathan_Jr
There is no punctuation in the Greek. How then could it be moved?
I’ve tried to find other verses in Luke where Jesus reminds his audience that he is speaking to them on the same day that they are listening to him.
MOREOVER, Jesus and those two criminals knew that day on the cross was their last. Would that dying criminal need to be reminded that the day Jesus was speaking was the day he was speaking? Which other day, if not today?
But, hey, if there is a religious theological position to advance, and one clings and clutches to inerrancy, well, one will just have to MAKE it fit, like a hand in a…
Edited by Nathan_JrGlove
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Nathan_Jr
Sounds like you are describing the good ol days of TWI. Sounds like you are describing the dupes who sat at the feet of Vic.
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Mike
I have posted a little on this before. It is a big story.
Before I crystalized on the collaterals in 1998, I had a totally different theory that started in 1987, which was the 20th anniversary of the Summer of Love. Lots of TV documentaries and magazine articles were pumping the history of the hippies.
I was stewing over the collapse of the ministry that started a year prior, and continued to get even worse.
The media nostalgia all around was constantly reminding me of the good old hippie days in TWI-1, years earlier with its Woodstock continuation every August.
I wondered in those early, already wobbly days of TWI-2 in 1987, what was that magical hippie element in the Seventies that made the ministry wonderful?
As I thought on this, and recorded TV shows and clipped newspaper and magazine articles on the Sixties, it seemed like VPW tried to get the PFAL teaching out of Ohio for years, unsuccessfully.
He went to other States, to England, India, Samoa, and I think South America to teach the class live, but nothing much stuck.
Then he films the class, and immediately afterward went to San Francisco to meet the hippies, and maybe teach the class, or a fraction of it LIVE to hippies. The film class had only just arrived at HQ from the developers days before his departure. He only watched the first half hour and was off to see the hippies.
It was from that time on that the ministry started exploding out of Ohio.
It looked to me that adding the hippie element to the PFAL teachings made it all zing just right, and the hippies moved the Word out of Ohio finally.
Look at johniam’s “Cheerfulness Report” and how it grew and grew, and then declined and declined. Simultaneous with the cheerfulness decline, was the sterilizing of the hippie element out of the ministry, its attitudes, and its music.
I felt like Archimedes in his tub shouting Eureka that day in 1987!
PFAL + hippie = cheerful loving ministry
PFAL - hippie = meltdown ministry
The math told me to investigate the hippie element and I did.
It went something like this:
Kesey --> Pranksters --> [ Heefner & Doop with Jesus Freaks ]
So, in 1987 I started studying the mystery Hippie Element that made the ministry zing so well in the early days.
Early in this research I saw it was right to zero in on Kesey. It was in his later writings that I found him admitting to this secret Christian influence he was attempting in the Sixties. I verified what I had found when someone told me that Kesey was in the White Pages.
So in the early 1990s I called him a bunch of times. His wife answered most of the times, but she proved very helpful in filling in gaps for my research. Finally Ken answered and I got to just say thanks for his work, because his wife had acted as his secretary in earlier calls. He was a trip, and a major influencer of the 20th century. When LSD was legal, Kesey hired the Grateful Dead for their very first gig to play at his acid parties. They were his house band for a while circa 1966.
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Mike
Are you telling me right now, in modern 2022,
that in the Olden Days they never spoke this way ?
(...but that if they did, it would have been captured
Edited by Mikeat least twice in the Gospels ???...)
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Mike
The modern Deadheads have matured and most of the psychedelics are gone, at least from sight. Every several months some one person is obviously tripping, but it is nothing like the college scene in the 70s. I hear of someone doing it once a year occasionally, but it is not the focus at all like it used to be.
There are doctors, lawyers, accountants, and chiropractors in the Deadhead community now, and 3 generations on the dance floors. They are gentle and kind, and the remnants of the peace and love hippies. They call the weekly Dead cover band shows "church."
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waysider
We really don't know how people spoke in the "Olden Days". It would be erroneous to assume their vocal patterns, emphatic pauses, modifiers and so on would parallel modern day spoken English.
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Mike
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OldSkool
Out of curiosity, were you involved in the Churches before wierwille?
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OldSkool
I had never considered that one.
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Nathan_Jr
No, I’m just saying it doesn’t make sense in any era, considering the context.
The “at least twice“ is your methodology to probing - where it’s used before.
I’m just reading it for what it says right where it’s written. I don’t need to MAKE it fit any opinion.
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Nathan_Jr
That’s because you failed to absorb it the first time. Go back and re-watch and re-read. Retain it. But don’t release it until it’s fully absorbed.
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OldSkool
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Nathan_Jr
No doubt you are, cuh…. No doubt you are.,,
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OldSkool
Well, I just blanket believed the stuff about the punctuation moving around and never really thought further until you mentioned it.
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Nathan_Jr
I know.
victor didn’t want you to pay attention, or hoped you wouldn’t. All hucksters depend on the blasé credulousness of their audience for their tricks to work.
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Mike
I know for sure that all the Romans spoke with a perfect British accent in those olden days.
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Mike
Yes, I was being warped by the RC school system in my preteen youth, and at the same time conducted studies in Comparative Religions 101 with my Protestant playmates.
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