I guess the bottom line for me is that I don’t have the proper tools to make the final judgement on the thickness of a man’s head and heart. Only God Himself knows that.
I can do what Christ says though and take a look at the fruit.
With VPW there was no moral awakening visible that late. There were no horizontal reparations with relationships and lives he personally had ruined.
So the fruit apparently points to a non repentant cult leader. But I don’t know for sure. That’s God. I’d rather give Him the respect and leeway to do His job. And call out the fruit as Christ taught. Because so many are dedicated to hiding it and whitewashing it.
just wanted you to know that I have finished all my backlog of responses, but have two left that I want to think more on how to answer. Here they are, just in case you want to add to them or edit for greater clarity.
Thanks for being thoughtful and responding in turn. I dont have anything to add or change. Thanks!
We were not a regular church in any way. We were more like an army on a mission deep inside the devil's territory, planting collateral printings all over the world, with thousands of appreciative grads putting that material in their minds. There were also all kinds of inefficiencies like the TVTs that slowed the project at times and at places, and sin abd collateral damage that set back individuals' walks. But the job got done. The 1942 promise was fulfilled by mid 1985.
*/*/*/*/*
Cool story. Where was this mission deep in the devils territory? Suburbs of UCSD?
Man you sound like a Gideon on a mission. But they are a bit ahead of you with the motel Bibles.
1942 promise you said it wasn’t necessary for you to believe that. But here you are weaving it into some kind of history.
A couple questions
1. What is a TVT?
2. What happened in mid 1985? How was promise fulfilled?
If you think you can do this better than VPW, that is great! Do it!
Well, let's talk about me for a minute. Im thinking it would be easy to read a "position of moral authority" into my posts and musings here on GSC where I seem to be jeering at wierwille and accusing him of folly and not really looking at that pile of rubbish in my own backyard...well...lets talk about OldSkools problems for a minute before we get to the solution.
Mike - I am a chronic alcoholic who has been sober for several years now. Im literally the worst person when Im drinking. I lost everything to alcoholism...and nearly comitted suicide in 2017 because I hated myself on a level that I still cant put into words adaquetly. When I was drinking I lived in bars, I left my wife, I was a womanizer, was doing cocaine like it was creamer in my coffee...and all of this after I left TWI and after I had a knowledge of scripture, whether that knowledge be good bad or indifferent. If you were to look back on my life from where I am now you would see a person who was mean spirited, a trained fighter, and extremely violent. You would find an occultist who had both hands in the devils bag of tricks. You would find a liar, alcoholic, and druggie who would be just as likely to buy a person a shot of Tequila and turn around and fight them half hour later. I was awful. The pits. I literally have not one shred of justification left to assume any moral superiority or high ground ever. I was among the worst of the worst.
It wasnt the way international that saved me mike. It wasnt wierwille or his doctrines...he gets no credit. It was Jesus Christ. Not only did he sacrifice himself for our sins but he is here every step of the way, and nobody is able to pluck us from his hands. When I was drinking myself into oblivion I kept getting a vision of waves crashing onto a very rocky shoreline over and over. I eventually came to understand that I would remain caught in those waves drowning in alcohol and hurting myself and my loved ones over and over again as I crashed onto that rocky shoreline.
Well...I eventually reached rock bottom where I knew death was just around the corner from me and it was zeroing in on what little life I had left. I repented. I have literally emptied myself of all pride, sin(s), anything I have ever tried to hide from God and Christ..I have asked for and received forgiveness. I have spent several years now making amends to the ones I hurt. I have apologized in writing to my former wife and am actively doing all I can to make her life better. I have confessed my short comings to my 16 year old son and have been very open and honest with him on everything. Even things most parents would shelter their kids...well I wont shelter him because he doesnt need to get caught in the same generational problems my family carries. I have come clean with my current wife. She literally saved my life by her stand for the Lord Jesus Christ. Her words and confrontation to me when I was drunk are the reason I am alive today...those words still echo in my head "Surrender yourself to Christ...stop fighting and submit" -- thats literally what she told me and I have. Today, I am giving her the best life I can give her. There is nothing left to hide. Anyone that knows me will tell you that I am open and honest on my sins, my lifestyle, and my humbleness of heart to serve the Lord. I am actively working with others including the homeless and other alcoholics/drug addicts. No Im not in AA either, not that I have anything against them beause I don't. I am very active in ministering and there is nothing that points to me as some great one...I will only point the way to Christ because I am redeemed scum of the earth. I dont deserve the breath I am breathing, but I fully understand that every breath I take is a gift of life from our Creator and I have never been more thankful.
So, when it comes to me Mike..I am literally a man who is breathing fresh air for the first time ever. I am as open and honest as I can be before God and man...and when there is anything I need to change I will change. The Lord is very active in my life and he chastises me as well as leads me to greener pastures. Hes is my Lord and I am in service to Jesus Christ because it was him who died for me, it was Christ who saved me, it is Christ who strengthens me, succors me, and causes me to be victorious over sin as long as I stay open and honest and continue to push into the new nature and reckon the old as deceased. That is the essence of Christianity -- release from the corrupted sin nature into the glorious new nature of the last Adam - Jesus Christ!
Let me be clear - wierwille never did any of those things for me and he is a cheap conterfeit. Im not trying to be insulting to you or mean. Im just being honest and giving an honest account as someone who stands for and actively fellowships with God and Jesus Christ.
So, I have no condemnation for wierwille on a personal level. I speak against his works and legacy and his faulty example he left for all of us. He is accountable to Jesus Christ as his servant and I do not think I am worthy to judge the motives of his heart no more than anyone would be qualified to judge the motives of my heart..but the fruit of my life tells a story and the fruit of wierwilles life tells a story and we are know by our fruits.
Mike - there is nothing on this earth I desire more than making Jesus Christ happy with what he has given me. The greates pinnacle in my life was the moment I emptied myself and confessed my sins and turned to the ones I hurt to make amends and do my level best to bring healing to them. I am doing just that. So, I have done better than wierwille when it comes to sin. Not in gathering donations, or selling classes, or amassing wordly goods under athe banner of a 501-c3...my crowning acheivement in life is the point where I literally humbled myself before Jesus Christ and came completely clean of my sins. My crowning acheivements in this life will be the moments I was able to undestand and do the will of the Lord. Thats all I have left and thats all I want.
Well, let's talk about me for a minute. Im thinking ... ... ... My crowning acheivements in this life will be the moments I was able to undestand and do the will of the Lord. Thats all I have left and thats all I want.
Much love in the Lord!
Thank you for that, OldSkool.
I will have to read it again, to make sure I incorporate the heart of it into my future texts with you.
I am also thankful that in recent days we have been able to connect on a few other points, both trivial and profound.
I will have to read it again, to make sure I incorporate the heart of it into my future texts with you.
I am also thankful that in recent days we have been able to connect on a few other points, both trivial and profound.
Thanks Mike! Im thankful we have connected as well. We may bicker or disagree or whatever but love rules the day...over any difference we are united by the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Much love and peace, sir!
TWI Verbal Tradition (A phrase that originated with Mike.)
It refers to things you learned in twig, for example, that aren't officially recorded in the written materials.
So, in other words, TWI can't be held accountable for any bad behavior you learned in twig, unless it's enshrined in the collaterals.
"Lead by example". is just a suggestion /s
No, I think TWI has been GROSSLY IRRESPONSIBLE in this area, and has done a terrible job in allowing the TVTs to proliferate and damage many.
A prime example of the TVT can be seen in the 14 appendixes to the Schoenheith paper in adultery. These were 14 separate TVTs that had circulated for years. They were excuses or justifications for casual sex outside marriage and adultery. They were TVT pick-up lines.
When these 14 TVTs were exposed as wrong in Schoenheith's paper the upper management tried to squelch it.
*/*/*/*/*/*
My position:
TWI is wrong for allowing the TVTs to proliferate unchecked.
The collaterals don't have the damaging errors the TVTs have.
Oh darn! Earlier I thought this post was referring to the rumor that VPW's last words were to Mrs Wierwille and were "At least we got it all into writing."
Sowhat you'retelling me in your usual long colluded way is that there's a possibility that ajust God wouldgivesomeone who's life ambition was to break every commandmentin thebookmore rewardsthan an obedient person.
NO !!! I wasthinking(andthought I wrote) just the opposite.
Please put me down forguessingLESS rewards, but knowing for sure that Godknows how to be just in these matters.
Why would you think I was thinkingthat?
11 hours ago, Mike said:
How could I possibly know ???
I leave that to God, and I know He will be just.
Why do you think I am that stupid?
Where do you get the impression I would think that way?
I don't think that way.
Ok? Are you going to believe?
No, I think TWI has been GROSSLY IRRESPONSIBLE in this area, and has done a terrible job in allowing the TVTs to proliferate and damage many.
A prime example of the TVT can be seen in the 14 appendixes to the Schoenheith paper in adultery. These were 14 separate TVTs that had circulated for years. They were excuses or justifications for casual sex outside marriage and adultery. They were TVT pick-up lines.
When these 14 TVTs were exposed as wrong in Schoenheith's paper the upper management tried to squelch it.
*/*/*/*/*/*
My position:
TWI is wrong for allowing the TVTs to proliferate unchecked.
The collaterals don't have the damaging errors the TVTs have.
If you read “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse” and the expanded study on Pharisees there, you actually will come to realize Jesus taught us how to handle spiritual abuse in his time on earth.
Pharisees construct inner circles so they don’t have to deal with “non believers”.
These inner circles communicate and decision make in NOTHING BUT “tvts”.
I would agree that written publications don’t have the hidden behind closed doors messages.
But as I’m looking at common cult practices I see this all through cult dealings. Verbal traditions govern everything. Whether it is the Watchtower society or the Mormon Q12 or President Nelson.
TWI cannot help but to function in this way.
And 100 percent of this was originated by the founder.
Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that vpw SECRETLY repented- that he said NOTHING to the congregation whom he'd owed many explanations and apologies, to say the least, but that he SECRETLY tried to get right with God Almighty. If he'd done that SECRETLY, he would have changed his heart- and that means he would have changed his ACTIONS. If the heart changes, the actions proceeding from the heart change. If he'd repented SECRETLY, there would have been comments in public teachings about seeking forgiveness from God, on repenting of sins, on stopping wrong actions and replacing them with right actions, and there would have been lots of discussions with him on-grounds here and there about that sort of thing, about how God forgives us and how we should ALL seek God's forgiveness about sins we've committed, about how we should ALL repent and go to God SECRETLY.
All of that would have been happening ALL THE TIME. There would be comments in ALL the sermons, and slipping out in most or all of the conversations. If he'd actually repented in his heart, that's what the changes would have been that would have happened in his actions.
There was no public repenting, no public discussion of repentance- as if it was a subject much on his mind- no derailing of casual discussions. The notion of repentance hadn't occurred to him until the very end, the final hours - when he actually started obsessing about it. Otherwise, there would have been hundreds of people who heard him say this sort of thing, and there were zero. So, he did not repent in his heart and change his heart- since that would have meant his actions would have changed, and we could have observed THAT very easily.
According to Mike, what was vpw talking about in his final months and weeks? Supposedly, his last public teaching was "the Joy of Serving"- which was a teaching-long advertisement for pfal. It said that the finest thing to do was to serve, and the finest service was to serve people pfal, so go do it, and how, outside twi, there were almost no answers for people. Running commercials for product is NOT the same as repenting.
What a blessing it would have been if vp had done what you wrote about above. Not only did he not do this, but according to the POP, he did the opposite. If Geer spoke honestly about his conversations with vp shortly before he died, vp criticized the actions of so many, many top leaders and blamed them for what was all "wrong" in twi. Even when he admitted that there were times when he was not successful at something he was doing, it wasn't because of him but because of the lack of "spirituality" of those around him who didn't give him the supported he wanted.
After trying hard for a while earlier today to keep up with all the responding on another thread, "Wierwille's doctorate," I had to give up the impossible task of keeping up with all the posts. I will try to answer them here.
After trying hard for a while earlier today to keep up with all the responding on another thread, "Wierwille's doctorate," I had to give up the impossible task of keeping up with all the posts. I will try to answer them here.
Please allow me to sum it up for you.
Once upon a time, there was a guy named Wierwille who claimed he had a doctorate.
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outandabout
I copied the emotion graph and wanted to comment on how it made me aware of the wide range of emotions we as humans are capable of. A little off topic but looking at it reminds me that we were taught
WordWolf
It's also interesting to see what happened and what did NOT happen. We all know that vpw never went to his congregation and confessed his sins against them. That would have been required after havi
chockfull
I think when VPW taught that sincerity is no guarantee for the truth that is what they call a “Freudian slip”.
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chockfull
I guess the bottom line for me is that I don’t have the proper tools to make the final judgement on the thickness of a man’s head and heart. Only God Himself knows that.
I can do what Christ says though and take a look at the fruit.
With VPW there was no moral awakening visible that late. There were no horizontal reparations with relationships and lives he personally had ruined.
So the fruit apparently points to a non repentant cult leader. But I don’t know for sure. That’s God. I’d rather give Him the respect and leeway to do His job. And call out the fruit as Christ taught. Because so many are dedicated to hiding it and whitewashing it.
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waysider
"He was a mean man."
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Nathan_Jr
Said Mrs. VP Wierwille about victor p wierwille?
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Twinky
Reportedly.
At his burial.
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OldSkool
Thanks for being thoughtful and responding in turn. I dont have anything to add or change. Thanks!
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OldSkool
Actually, Jesus Christ will...
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chockfull
Cool story. Where was this mission deep in the devils territory? Suburbs of UCSD?
Man you sound like a Gideon on a mission. But they are a bit ahead of you with the motel Bibles.
1942 promise you said it wasn’t necessary for you to believe that. But here you are weaving it into some kind of history.
A couple questions
1. What is a TVT?
2. What happened in mid 1985? How was promise fulfilled?
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OldSkool
Well, let's talk about me for a minute. Im thinking it would be easy to read a "position of moral authority" into my posts and musings here on GSC where I seem to be jeering at wierwille and accusing him of folly and not really looking at that pile of rubbish in my own backyard...well...lets talk about OldSkools problems for a minute before we get to the solution.
Mike - I am a chronic alcoholic who has been sober for several years now. Im literally the worst person when Im drinking. I lost everything to alcoholism...and nearly comitted suicide in 2017 because I hated myself on a level that I still cant put into words adaquetly. When I was drinking I lived in bars, I left my wife, I was a womanizer, was doing cocaine like it was creamer in my coffee...and all of this after I left TWI and after I had a knowledge of scripture, whether that knowledge be good bad or indifferent. If you were to look back on my life from where I am now you would see a person who was mean spirited, a trained fighter, and extremely violent. You would find an occultist who had both hands in the devils bag of tricks. You would find a liar, alcoholic, and druggie who would be just as likely to buy a person a shot of Tequila and turn around and fight them half hour later. I was awful. The pits. I literally have not one shred of justification left to assume any moral superiority or high ground ever. I was among the worst of the worst.
It wasnt the way international that saved me mike. It wasnt wierwille or his doctrines...he gets no credit. It was Jesus Christ. Not only did he sacrifice himself for our sins but he is here every step of the way, and nobody is able to pluck us from his hands. When I was drinking myself into oblivion I kept getting a vision of waves crashing onto a very rocky shoreline over and over. I eventually came to understand that I would remain caught in those waves drowning in alcohol and hurting myself and my loved ones over and over again as I crashed onto that rocky shoreline.
Well...I eventually reached rock bottom where I knew death was just around the corner from me and it was zeroing in on what little life I had left. I repented. I have literally emptied myself of all pride, sin(s), anything I have ever tried to hide from God and Christ..I have asked for and received forgiveness. I have spent several years now making amends to the ones I hurt. I have apologized in writing to my former wife and am actively doing all I can to make her life better. I have confessed my short comings to my 16 year old son and have been very open and honest with him on everything. Even things most parents would shelter their kids...well I wont shelter him because he doesnt need to get caught in the same generational problems my family carries. I have come clean with my current wife. She literally saved my life by her stand for the Lord Jesus Christ. Her words and confrontation to me when I was drunk are the reason I am alive today...those words still echo in my head "Surrender yourself to Christ...stop fighting and submit" -- thats literally what she told me and I have. Today, I am giving her the best life I can give her. There is nothing left to hide. Anyone that knows me will tell you that I am open and honest on my sins, my lifestyle, and my humbleness of heart to serve the Lord. I am actively working with others including the homeless and other alcoholics/drug addicts. No Im not in AA either, not that I have anything against them beause I don't. I am very active in ministering and there is nothing that points to me as some great one...I will only point the way to Christ because I am redeemed scum of the earth. I dont deserve the breath I am breathing, but I fully understand that every breath I take is a gift of life from our Creator and I have never been more thankful.
So, when it comes to me Mike..I am literally a man who is breathing fresh air for the first time ever. I am as open and honest as I can be before God and man...and when there is anything I need to change I will change. The Lord is very active in my life and he chastises me as well as leads me to greener pastures. Hes is my Lord and I am in service to Jesus Christ because it was him who died for me, it was Christ who saved me, it is Christ who strengthens me, succors me, and causes me to be victorious over sin as long as I stay open and honest and continue to push into the new nature and reckon the old as deceased. That is the essence of Christianity -- release from the corrupted sin nature into the glorious new nature of the last Adam - Jesus Christ!
Let me be clear - wierwille never did any of those things for me and he is a cheap conterfeit. Im not trying to be insulting to you or mean. Im just being honest and giving an honest account as someone who stands for and actively fellowships with God and Jesus Christ.
So, I have no condemnation for wierwille on a personal level. I speak against his works and legacy and his faulty example he left for all of us. He is accountable to Jesus Christ as his servant and I do not think I am worthy to judge the motives of his heart no more than anyone would be qualified to judge the motives of my heart..but the fruit of my life tells a story and the fruit of wierwilles life tells a story and we are know by our fruits.
Mike - there is nothing on this earth I desire more than making Jesus Christ happy with what he has given me. The greates pinnacle in my life was the moment I emptied myself and confessed my sins and turned to the ones I hurt to make amends and do my level best to bring healing to them. I am doing just that. So, I have done better than wierwille when it comes to sin. Not in gathering donations, or selling classes, or amassing wordly goods under athe banner of a 501-c3...my crowning acheivement in life is the point where I literally humbled myself before Jesus Christ and came completely clean of my sins. My crowning acheivements in this life will be the moments I was able to undestand and do the will of the Lord. Thats all I have left and thats all I want.
Much love in the Lord!
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Mike
Thank you. That's the first confirmation I have heard of this.
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Mike
Thank you for that, OldSkool.
I will have to read it again, to make sure I incorporate the heart of it into my future texts with you.
I am also thankful that in recent days we have been able to connect on a few other points, both trivial and profound.
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OldSkool
Thanks Mike! Im thankful we have connected as well. We may bicker or disagree or whatever but love rules the day...over any difference we are united by the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Much love and peace, sir!
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Mike
Yes, in unified teamwork, he and the Father.
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OldSkool
Yes! They always are!!! Its so cool.
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waysider
TWI Verbal Tradition (A phrase that originated with Mike.)
It refers to things you learned in twig, for example, that aren't officially recorded in the written materials.
So, in other words, TWI can't be held accountable for any bad behavior you learned in twig, unless it's enshrined in the collaterals.
"Lead by example". is just a suggestion /s
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Mike
No, I think TWI has been GROSSLY IRRESPONSIBLE in this area, and has done a terrible job in allowing the TVTs to proliferate and damage many.
A prime example of the TVT can be seen in the 14 appendixes to the Schoenheith paper in adultery. These were 14 separate TVTs that had circulated for years. They were excuses or justifications for casual sex outside marriage and adultery. They were TVT pick-up lines.
When these 14 TVTs were exposed as wrong in Schoenheith's paper the upper management tried to squelch it.
*/*/*/*/*/*
My position:
TWI is wrong for allowing the TVTs to proliferate unchecked.
The collaterals don't have the damaging errors the TVTs have.
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Mike
Oh darn! Earlier I thought this post was referring to the rumor that VPW's last words were to Mrs Wierwille and were "At least we got it all into writing."
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So_crates
Contradictions anyone?
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chockfull
If you read “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse” and the expanded study on Pharisees there, you actually will come to realize Jesus taught us how to handle spiritual abuse in his time on earth.
Pharisees construct inner circles so they don’t have to deal with “non believers”.
These inner circles communicate and decision make in NOTHING BUT “tvts”.
I would agree that written publications don’t have the hidden behind closed doors messages.
But as I’m looking at common cult practices I see this all through cult dealings. Verbal traditions govern everything. Whether it is the Watchtower society or the Mormon Q12 or President Nelson.
TWI cannot help but to function in this way.
And 100 percent of this was originated by the founder.
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Charity
What a blessing it would have been if vp had done what you wrote about above. Not only did he not do this, but according to the POP, he did the opposite. If Geer spoke honestly about his conversations with vp shortly before he died, vp criticized the actions of so many, many top leaders and blamed them for what was all "wrong" in twi. Even when he admitted that there were times when he was not successful at something he was doing, it wasn't because of him but because of the lack of "spirituality" of those around him who didn't give him the supported he wanted.
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Mike
After trying hard for a while earlier today to keep up with all the responding on another thread, "Wierwille's doctorate," I had to give up the impossible task of keeping up with all the posts. I will try to answer them here.
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Nathan_Jr
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Mike
Bringing the circus with you, I see. LoL
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Nathan_Jr
The ridiculous will be ridiculed. An axiom.
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waysider
Please allow me to sum it up for you.
Once upon a time, there was a guy named Wierwille who claimed he had a doctorate.
He lied. It was a mail order phony.
The End.
(They all lived happily ever after.)
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