Jumping to Concussions in a Rush to Judgement

[chockfull]

49 minutes ago, Mike said:

I'll get back later to the other errors in your post here, but most important is your omission of a key idea that I have not elaborated on for a long time here.

I have often said that beginning students of PFAL have zero need for the clutter and distractions that footnotes and academic citations bring.  I am also glad the early collaterals are missing the clutter NOW, as I open them to read.

That I have said often.

A rarely stated gladness I have is toward the LACK of pointers to outside teachers the new students of PFAL get. 

Here is the reason:  THERE IS ERROR in the teachings of others, the others VPW got his PFAL teachings from.  

Why expose new students to error?  In a year or two they will have no trouble finding VPW’s sources and then they will be better prepared to separate the truth from the error.

In 1971 the documentation of these teachers was put into Elena Whiteside’s book, “The Way – Living in Love.”   It had been on old tapes prior to that.  It was not hidden information, just delayed, so that new students could mature a little with the foundational principles.

I hear from posters that “The Way – Living in Love”  has been hidden away from all.  This is something worth looking into.  I will ask around within TWI-4 as to what happened to that book.  It may be Elena Whiteside had something to do with it.  I wonder if she extended the copyright, as it is now over 50 years old.

I think TWI probably removed the book themselves, as part of a LONG STANDING policy of “pulling” the old SNT teaching tapes of people who are “no longer with the ministry,” as the heavily used saying went.

They pulled the Rock of Ages movie, probably due to some scenes with a few superstars who are “no longer with the ministry,”  like Ralph D, and lots of early Corps.

I intend to talk to the History Department at TWI-4 about how they might as well include the previously “banned” material since it is readily available on the web to all now. 

Any unvarnished history of TWI will have to include all the great teachers they (TWI-2 and TWI-3) trashed. 

Yes those pesky footnotes and bibliography entries.  They just so distract people.  I’m sure they’ve never had to use them in a paper in school or anything to cite the legitimacy of their writings.

Yes pulling materials of “cop outs” as the internal saying goes is probably a full time job for someone. 

They really have to jump through hoops with Craig’s book on Acts.  They downplay it, only quote it if no other source, and hide it in Way tree job descriptions.

The “history department” is the BOD.  They are also the “research department”.  They set the direction of what the PLAFT teachers studied and taught.  Their egos are so huge that they cannot tolerate any others in those fields or jobs.

Their decision making is 100 percent around “that the ministry be not blamed” twisting of a scripture to hyper focus on self preservation as opposed to the truth from Gods Word as spoken to them via many sources.

 

[OldSkool]

18 minutes ago, waysider said:

Why don't you ask some of your academic colleagues how they feel about deliberately obscuring sources of reference? I'm anxiously awaiting their response.

Ive got a funny feeling that his academic colleagues are really just the junk science pseudo nerds you find peppered throughout the way international.

[Twinky]

This truly is one of the most laughable posts that Mike has ever contributed.  No footnotes, and "lack of pointers" to error-ridden outside sources protects new students from error???????    "Why expose new students to error?"  Why, indeed, Mike.  Great idea.  Let's completely can all versions of PFAL.  That would be a great protection.

I'm not even going to try to pick apart all the other ridiculous statements.

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I'll get back later to the other errors in your post here, but most important is your omission of a key idea that I have not elaborated on for a long time here.

I have often said that beginning students of PFAL have zero need for the clutter and distractions that footnotes and academic citations bring.  I am also glad the early collaterals are missing the clutter NOW, as I open them to read.

That I have said often.

A rarely stated gladness I have is toward the LACK of pointers to outside teachers the new students of PFAL get. 

Here is the reason:  THERE IS ERROR in the teachings of others, the others VPW got his PFAL teachings from.  

Why expose new students to error?  In a year or two they will have no trouble finding VPW’s sources and then they will be better prepared to separate the truth from the error.

In 1971 the documentation of these teachers was put into Elena Whiteside’s book, “The Way – Living in Love.”   It had been on old tapes prior to that.  It was not hidden information, just delayed, so that new students could mature a little with the foundational principles.

I hear from posters that “The Way – Living in Love”  has been hidden away from all.  This is something worth looking into.  I will ask around within TWI-4 as to what happened to that book.  It may be Elena Whiteside had something to do with it.  I wonder if she extended the copyright, as it is now over 50 years old.

I think TWI probably removed the book themselves, as part of a LONG STANDING policy of “pulling” the old SNT teaching tapes of people who are “no longer with the ministry,” as the heavily used saying went.

They pulled the Rock of Ages movie, probably due to some scenes with a few superstars who are “no longer with the ministry,”  like Ralph D, and lots of early Corps.

I intend to talk to the History Department at TWI-4 about how they might as well include the previously “banned” material since it is readily available on the web to all now. 

Any unvarnished history of TWI will have to include all the great teachers they (TWI-2 and TWI-3) trashed. 

 

[So_crates]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

You must have your reader settings out of kilter.

I would say that my post was MORE LIKE saying you should slightly delay some of the things they will need in life, rather than dump it all on them at too early an age.

Maybe if you fiddle with your reader settings, and go back you will be better able to read my slight delay idea. 

You might be able to read the rest of my post better that way also.

 

 

So in your worldview kids shouldn't be taught about strangers with candy because that'll prevent them from making friends, right?

Edited December 24, 2022 by So_crates

[Twinky]

10 hours ago, Twinky said:

What's this business of comparing one version of the collaterals with some other version?  That's akin to comparing bull manure with heifer manure.  

Have you considered comparing the collaterals with what the Bible says on a subject?  And I don't mean just looking at the words of, and occasional verses noted in, the collateral kid's-essay, but at the depth of what the Bible says about a topic.  Which will include very, very much more material than in a few badly written pages of a kid's-essay.

 

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

the way international has spent years editing errors out of the collaterals...the edits are across the board and a lot of the edits are content and not punctuation. Its been a very long process for them but if they were going to survive a lot of the rants and raves and crazy ideas had to be sanitized...they also had to cover plagaraism as well

OldSkool, I really wonder why Mike has to compare collateral with collateral.  I don't care how many edits are made. 

In Christian terms, what is the relevance?  The importance?  How does it actually result in any improved Christian walk?  So what if it redeems the filthy Way Ministry from dense jet black to a slightly less opaque smokier black?

Isaiah 42:6“I, the LORD, have called you for a righteous purpose, and I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and appoint you to be a covenant for the people and a light to the nations,
7to open the eyes of the blind, to bring prisoners out of the dungeon
and those sitting in darkness out from the prison house.

Does it say anything about those sitting in darkness sitting in less darkness?  Anything about those abandoned in an oubliette (look it up) being transferred to a less stinky underground cell?  No - the Lord wants his people out of darkness altogether.

Comparing collateral versions is simply busy-work to avoid actually doing something productive.  Like studying his Bible and doing things based on it - helping the unfortunate, looking after the sick, looking out for his neighbours - even, it appears, loving God.

Of course, I could be wrong.  If there's a verse that says "study the collaterals to show yourself approved unto God" then I must be stuffed.  But I understand 2 Tim 2:15 to mean rather different things.

https://biblehub.com/2_timothy/2-15.htm

Comparing bull--- to heifer--- is just busy-work.  A bum job, you might say.

[OldSkool]

1 minute ago, Twinky said:

OldSkool, I really wonder why Mike has to compare collateral with collateral.

Its a stupid idea that mike tried to put on me, like I was going to go waste my time to fulfill his impossible request.

1 minute ago, Twinky said:

Comparing bull--- to heifer--- is just busy-work.  A bum job, you might say.

I kinda thought so too and declined the assignment. But heres the thing..mike has to come up with the most ludicrous idea that simply cannot be met in an attempt to discredit GSC contributors such as myself when it's actually mike that has no credibility. As Ive often said, Im glad he posts here because we have a live case study of how bad pflap and the collaterals can scramble someone's eggs.

[Twinky]

You've given him enough, OS.  He listens not to you, to the Bible, to words of wisdom from other posters.

As the saying goes, "There's none so blind as those who will not see."

Edited December 24, 2022 by Twinky
Emphasis

[OldSkool]

10 minutes ago, Twinky said:

You've given him enough, OS.  He listens not to you, to the Bible, to words of wisdom from other posters.

As the saying goes, "There's none so blind as those who will not see."

Amen!

Note: I pretty much post for those following along. Mike makes it easy to post up information that's wrong with TWI. I hope he keeps on posting.

Edited December 24, 2022 by OldSkool

[Mike]

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

I love this statement from John Jeudes about twi removing EW Bullinger, JE Stiles and EW Kenyon from VPW's sources:

If TWI was honest about noting Wierwille’s primary influences, and considered plagiarism an ethical practice, it would feature these men in Wierwille’s bio.

By leaving out Bullinger, Stiles and Kenyon, TWI hopes to avoid embarrassment when its followers read books by those men and discover Wierwille’s plagiarism for themselves.

I can semi-agree here.

TWI-4 has a mission clarification thing going on.

I am thinking it through also, and making suggestions.

I see what you bring up here is remotely related.

There really should be two different bios for VPW in print and on web that TWI-4 offers, each radically different. This will be a real tough thing for them to do, however, and workarounds are in the works….   LoL mostly in my mind and posting here… but a little in e-mails and in face to face and in voice-phone.

*/*/*/*

One bio of VPW would be to market classes and books with, plus be included with syllabus and other foundational class materials.. This is what they do now, and do pretty well according to professional standards.

The other bio of VPW would be for Advanced Class students, and would be the unvarnished version. It will NOT be the cartoonish, extreme, worse-than-Hitler version of him we all are so familiar for decades here at GSC, but it MUST include enough information that will explain why building and maintaining that Pure Evil anti-idol is such a popular past-time here for some, at times.

*/*/*/*/*

Just like the Corps, though, a lot of good goes on here, both in “About the Way” and on all the other stages, er  forums. This GSC has long been the only Twitter for grads, up until about 4 years ago when Facebook groups for grads became a relatively smaller thing, fueled somewhat by TWI-4 “un-loosing” their grads to the Internet.   (Twinky, this empath paragraph is for you too.)

But I originally came to GreaseSpot for news; the Grad Grapevine it was then in 2002 for me, and still is. I’d a have never known about the RnR if  ’twern’t for GSC, to give a recent example.

One bio is the slick professional marketing style thing, addressed to people unfamiliar with PFAL.

The other bio is the more academic, more thorough and more advanced than the Schoenheit paper of 1986 went.

Of course this dream of mine can only happen with a miracle in TWI-4 in the coming year, but…. who can say for the following year?

(Hey, Twinky, I’m sure the second bio is as cartoonish for you, as the “grease-vpw-persona” is for me !!!  Are your empathy detectors clicking up counts here?)

There are all sorts of reasons TW-4 cannot and will not do this second bio, at least not soon.  However, in some ways it is being slowly hammered out here.  

LoL  ... As you folks hammer on me, and I hammer back, lots of boilerplate for lots of grads is being generated here for future things, like the second bio with unvarnished history.  I hope to see the beginnings of it being written by grateful grads, proPFAL people, all over the world. Right now, this year and last year, see spurts of it appearing on facebook.

Yeah, the second bio will probably be a third-party, unofficially subcontracted production.  I hope to take part in it, and believe I have been giving it a jump start for years now right here.

*/*/*/*/*/*/*

Now, I have been promising Twinky that New Years Eve day is my best time to address her long post to me, which I have delayed not for weeks and weeks…. no?.. days and days?…..  nope, hours and hours.  So finally the time has arrived, and I have to excuse myself from the ongoing discussions. 

I may have to go completely off-line, with her post in my MS Word app to avoid getting too distracted here.

Merry Christmas

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Mike

[So_crates]

4 minutes ago, Mike said:

One bio of VPW would be to market classes and books with, plus be included with syllabus and other foundational class materials.. This is what they do now, and do pretty well according to professional standards

So basically you would lie to people until they took all the materials the ministry had to offer.

Jingle bells.

[OldSkool]

5 minutes ago, Mike said:

TWI-4 has a mission clarification thing going on.

your back to fantasizing again...they are following up on rosalies coverup mission and taking the next step by offering a newly sanitized class, biography of vpw, and printed materials. Thats what it is mike. TWI-1,2,3,4,5,6,---- They don't exist...thats all your bullshonta rationalization. There is only the way international not some fantasy numbered editions where they slowly get it right like a new version of the matrix.

[OldSkool]

1 minute ago, So_crates said:

So basically you would lie to people until they took all the materials the ministry had to offer.

Jingle bells.

Yes!! He has consistently advocated that exact thing! Lie, remove all academic footnotes, meter feed or hide historical information such as wieriwille and his motorcoach escapades and plagairism...mike is fully on board with all of twi's lying methods of concealment and control.

[chockfull]

Yes it may be that eventually someone high up might tell some of a portion of the truth somewhere.  The pattern they have is to do anything sketchy like that at the Advanced Class where they have people isolated for 2 weeks away from outside influence and can spin a version of a story there that is not fact checked or challenged in any way.

They are waaaaaay too chicken to do anything like that in the public eye where people like us and John Juedes are looking at it.

[chockfull]

2 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Yes!! He has consistently advocated that exact thing! Lie, remove all academic footnotes, meter feed or hide historical information such as wieriwille and his motorcoach escapades and plagairism...mike is fully on board with all of twi's lying methods of concealment and control.

But but but but but but

Isnt whitewash like a little white lie?

I mean the BOD is only lying to them to protect them and so the ministry is not blamed.

Nobody cares about a little whitewash do they?  It’s only to make the neighborhood look better.

Trying real hard with my list of excuses to lie to followers.

[Mike]

1 minute ago, So_crates said:

So basically you would lie to people until they took all the materials the ministry had to offer.

Basically that is how all marketing works, isn't it? 
It is varnished.
It is "put your best foot forward first."
I included "advertising" in my Confabulation  Tabulation

If you operate a business you don't have a business card cluttered with caveats do your? Is that lying to have a nice looking business card?

[OldSkool]

1 minute ago, Mike said:

Basically that is how all marketing works, isn't it? 
It is varnished.
It is "put your best foot forward first."
I included "advertising" in my Confabulation  Tabulation

If you operate a business you don't have a business card cluttered with caveats do your? Is that lying to have a nice looking business card?

Yeah...but thats all dishonest and not Biblical or ethical...you expect God/Jesus Christ to be on board? 

[OldSkool]

6 minutes ago, chockfull said:

They are waaaaaay too chicken to do anything like that in the public eye where people like us and John Juedes are looking at it.

Right! You see what happens to mike when he tries to post up that garbage where it can be openly discussed...0 credibility.

[chockfull]

2 minutes ago, Mike said:

Basically that is how all marketing works, isn't it? 
It is varnished.
It is "put your best foot forward first."
I included "advertising" in my Confabulation  Tabulation

If you operate a business you don't have a business card cluttered with caveats do your? Is that lying to have a nice looking business card?

Yes I get it.  It’s positive marketing.  Like Santa Claus.  Such a beautiful positive message.  No negative in sight.  It’s so peaceful.  

Certainly Mike can get a cleaning crew together and shine TWIs image.

Shine shine shine.

I mean even Tom Sawyer whitewashed fences.  And he’s an American hero!

[chockfull]

5 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Yeah...but thats all dishonest and not Biblical or ethical...you expect God/Jesus Christ to be on board? 

Ah but they are absent so can’t object.

[So_crates]

4 minutes ago, Mike said:

Basically that is how all marketing works, isn't it? 
It is varnished.
It is "put your best foot forward first."
I included "advertising" in my Confabulation  Tabulation

If you operate a business you don't have a business card cluttered with caveats do your? Is that lying to have a nice looking business card?

And just how do you think those advanced class grads will feel after taking all those classes and spending all that money just to realize they were suckers?

Remind me again how many people left the ministry in the 80s when the truth about Saint Vic was made know?

But then the ministry doesn't care because it already has their money.

[chockfull]

Hey Mikey I think there might still be a little tarnish spot on “The Teacher” statues left big toe.

Do you think you could get a crew on that pronto before the public sees it?

[Mike]

54 minutes ago, Twinky said:

You've given him enough, OS.  He listens not to you, to the Bible, to words of wisdom from other posters.

As the saying goes, "There's none so blind as those who will not see."

Twinky, I thought you'd be asleep now.  I did not see your post until just now.

I have you in my word processor right now, and diligently doing my homework.

The wiki article was cool, especially the neuroscience part.

I realized from reading that one of the UCSD superstars has a relatively recent book out on empathy, without using that word so much. I've been reading it now slowly for months.

https://www.amazon.com/Conscience-Origins-Intuition-Patricia-Churchland/dp/1324000899

I hope you read my apology and re-write of my opening post on this thread.  Some of your long post's concerns are addressed by that re-write.  My heart sank (can you empathize?) when I googled "snapping" and saw how terrible a choice it was for me.  I agree the Digital/Analog names are strange, and before I write any of the up for my brain science friends I'll have hopefully found better nomenclature.

Also, I want to get straight with you about Charlene.  I am absolutely NOT mounting an attack on her.  I kinda doubt it if she wants to discuss things with me here, and that is ok. I can empathize with that.

I don't know if you noticed or not, but I have asked for advice here twice, maybe 3 times, as to how to post on Charlene's book and where to do it.   I do want to post on it and take issue with her expressed "theology" or what ever word she prefers for that.

The fact that she is a part of my past, a super-star of the early Corps was my impression of her. I said before, I don't want to destroy that memory with crazy food fights in the Cafe. Please be empathetic with me here on this one. 

*/*/*/*

I'll check in here and there to see what is happening, but my window cleaning business is shut down for days, and I am getting to a few other neglected projects, like links from T-Bone to look at. Otherwise I am cramming for my Empathy Exam coming up.

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Mike

[OldSkool]

20 minutes ago, Mike said:

If you operate a business you don't have a business card cluttered with caveats do your? Is that lying to have a nice looking business card?

In this case -- yes. You guys are claiming some dippydoo in a cornfield in rural Ohio was selected by God almighty to teach the Bible like it hadnt been known since the first century and all wierwille did was steal others materials and claim God taught him by revelation...yes...that's lying and you are part of the lie and coverup.

[Mike]

22 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Yes I get it.  It’s positive marketing.  Like Santa Claus.  Such a beautiful positive message.  No negative in sight.  It’s so peaceful.  

Certainly Mike can get a cleaning crew together and shine TWIs image.

Shine shine shine.

I mean even Tom Sawyer whitewashed fences.  And he’s an American hero!

You missed major points I made, but thank you for the opportunity to repeat them.

This shiny marketing presentation they need none of my help with.

It is the second bio that I am assembling a crew to UN-shine in a loving way, the whole story.  I think this is a lot of what Luke did with writing Acts. It is the unvarnished history of the First Century Church, the parts God knows are useful to us.

[waysider]

29 minutes ago, Mike said:

Is that lying to have a nice looking business card?

No, It's not lying to have a nice looking business card.

Having one that misrepresents your services, on the other hand, is lying.