Jumping to Concussions in a Rush to Judgement

[Mike]

Jumping to Concussions in a Rush to Judgement

This is kind of phenomenon I saw often in TWI-1, and in MY OPINION it is part of how inappropriate idolization of VPW happened with some.

A common phenomenon in human cognition is the ability to quickly crystalize a whole new perspective or paradigm, and massively jumping to concussions, in a rush to judgement. Using that  word “concussions” was deliberate and not a typo or spellcheck. It was an attempt to lighten up a little on a pretty serious subject, and it is descriptive of what can go wrong when this kind of mental jumping happens inappropriately.

I imagine that in many situations this ability to quickly crystalize a large impression is a useful skill. That is why it is a common phenomenon: it is built into our DNA. A mechanical analog of this phenomenon is a light switch with a snap to it. This kind of mental snapping could have all sorts of survival values in the wild.

But snapping can be dangerous when applied to the wrong situation, especially in modern civilization. In our lives some situations require long ponderous thought, and not-so-fast action. Let’s come up with a name for this near opposite of snapping, why don’t we?  How about we find one with the terminology of Acts 17:10-11, where the Bereans did not jump to concussions.  How about AMS for “anti mental snapping.”

The Bereans took it in for deep pondering, worked the scriptures day after day, talked with each other a lot during this scripture party.  They probably had only one Bible to work with. They compared impressions with each there. And then they gradually arrived at the point where they were ready to fully believe Paul.

“And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.  Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.”

Compare this Berean AMS to the day of Pentecost, when 5,000 people heard the S.I.T. miracle (?and maybe saw the tongues like as of fire?) and they all believed that same day, real quick.  And how many Bibles did they have with them to search the scriptures?  It looks like the snapping there was good and godly.

This same human dynamic can be hijacked by the devil, and then the snapping is very dangerous.

It may be that snapping was involved with Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus.

*/*/*/*/*

I have been thinking about this phenomenon ever since my first twig fellowship in 1971 where it happened almost regularly with teenagers.  Just two days into my posting here, 20 years ago, I brought it up. 

A blast from the past:

Posted December 27, 2002    11:06 pst   (slightly edited)

I'm amazed at how impatient everyone is to get all this in a thumbnail. It reminds me of early 1987, when there was almost no info flowing and everything was hush-hush, yet within months everyone had made up their mind which splinter (or not)  to be a part of.

With relatively no information to lean on, decisions were made back then that have never been reexamined, only built on, or piled on.

I'm glad I was taught to take it slower.

It’s sad how much information was lost or never considered by those who crystallized their stand on emotion and/or whichever leader happened to tickled their fancy.

In those early days, after the 1986 meltdown, I would always shop around for info because I wanted to decide more carefully. I noticed that no one else here in SD did that except for one other person.

When JL from CES would blow into town once every year, me and that one other person would always attend. We two “ringers” would always be the only people from the other major SD camp at the time, the GeerSplinters, as we mostly attended those fellowships at that time.

No CES people would talk to GeerSplinters, and no GeerSplinters would talk to CESers.  We two ringers straddled that line for 10 years.

Everyone huddled into a group that was quickly decided upon, and once there, the leaders would tell [or inspire] them to M&A all other grad groups.

The same applied to the Craigites here, but they were in much smaller numbers. The majority here went with Geer, and only one small twig went with LCM.

The same applies to most GreaseSpotters in my opinion. Lots of digging into their positions, little knowledge of what the others are doing.

I urge patience and info gathering.

*/*/*/*

I have posted on this since several times using terminology like rush to judgement, quick crystallization, and jumping to concussions.

Only just recently have I seen that this topic of snapping applies to several posters’ life stories, and to Charlene in particular. 

My hunch is that snapping to hyper-love towards all that is TWI long ago, is very similar to snapping to hyper-hate towards all that is TWI in later years.

I see both AMS and snapping as good skills that can go wrong.

Some people are more prone to AMS and some are more prone to snapping.

I distinctly remember being jealous of snappers in my early years. My slowness to commit ended up later helping me, but back then it was sometimes a liability.  I missed out on a lot, by being too careful.

I felt I was a very slow learner, and I wanted to be able to jump in all the way. After a lifetime of pondering all this I see that I was excessive in backing off from full commitment. It was fear. I consider it a character trait, a flaw of mine, that needs working on.

Similar introspection may be useful for those who may be the more impulsive types.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Mike

[Bolshevik]

I used a snapper to mow the grass at HQ, getting every blade to the same height, spiritually.  Other times, I used the hopper.

 

[Nathan_Jr]

This would be a good thread on which to post your critiques of Penwork's book.

[Mike]

5 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

This would be a good thread on which to post your critiques of Penwork's book.

Yes, thanks for the confirmation.

I wanted to make sure it was not directed at her, but at the phenomenon, which I believe is built into all of our DNA.

It can include her, but I see it applying to all of us.  When the emotion is there, I know for sure I can be a snapper.  Penwork is very clear in her book that the continuing emotional tragedy was part of her snapping.  Who hasn't done that ??  We all do it.

[Bolshevik]

2 minutes ago, Mike said:

Yes, thanks for the confirmation.

I wanted to make sure it was not directed at her, but at the phenomenon, which I believe is built into all of our DNA.

It can include her, but I see it applying to all of us.  When the emotion is there, I know for sure I can be a snapper.  Penwork is very clear in her book that the continuing emotional tragedy was part of her snapping.  Who hasn't done that ??  We all do it.

Is this about the renewed mind?

I read an article once.  You could call me an expert.

[chockfull]

24 minutes ago, Mike said:

Jumping to Concussions in a Rush to Judgement

This is kind of phenomenon I saw often in TWI-1, and in MY OPINION it is part of how inappropriate idolization of VPW happened with some.

A common phenomenon in human cognition is the ability to quickly crystalize a whole new perspective or paradigm, and massively jumping to concussions, in a rush to judgement. Using that  word “concussions” was deliberate and not a typo or spellcheck. It was an attempt to lighten up a little on a pretty serious subject, and it is descriptive of what can go wrong when this kind of mental jumping happens inappropriately.

I imagine that in many situations this ability to quickly crystalize a large impression is a useful skill. That is why it is a common phenomenon: it is built into our DNA. A mechanical analog of this phenomenon is a light switch with a snap to it. This kind of mental snapping could have all sorts of survival values in the wild.

But snapping can be dangerous when applied to the wrong situation, especially in modern civilization. In our lives some situations require long ponderous thought, and not-so-fast action. Let’s come up with a name for this near opposite of snapping, why don’t we?  How about we find one with the terminology of Acts 17:10-11, where the Bereans did not jump to concussions.  How about AMS for “anti mental snapping.”

 

 

The Bereans took it in for deep pondering, worked the scriptures day after day, talked with each other a lot during this scripture party.  They probably had only one Bible to work with. They compared impressions with each there. And then they gradually arrived at the point where they were ready to fully believe Paul.

 

 

“And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.  Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.”

 

 

Compare this Berean AMS to the day of Pentecost, when 5,000 people heard the S.I.T. miracle (?and maybe saw the tongues like as of fire?) and they all believed that same day, real quick.  And how many Bibles did they have with them to search the scriptures?  It looks like the snapping there was good and godly.

 

 

This same human dynamic can be hijacked by the devil, and then the snapping is very dangerous.

 

 

It may be that snapping was involved with Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus.

 

 

*/*/*/*/*

 

 

I have been thinking about this phenomenon ever since my first twig fellowship in 1971 where it happened almost regularly with teenagers.  Just two days into my posting here, 20 years ago, I brought it up. 

A blast from the past:

Posted December 27, 2002    11:06 pst   (slightly edited)

I'm amazed at how impatient everyone is to get all this in a thumbnail. It reminds me of early 1987, when there was almost no info flowing and everything was hush-hush, yet within months everyone had made up their mind which splinter (or not)  to be a part of.

With relatively no information to lean on, decisions were made back then that have never been reexamined, only built on, or piled on.

I'm glad I was taught to take it slower.

It’s sad how much information was lost or never considered by those who crystallized their stand on emotion and/or whichever leader happened to tickled their fancy.

In those early days, after the 1986 meltdown, I would always shop around for info because I wanted to decide more carefully. I noticed that no one else here in SD did that except for one other person.

When JL from CES would blow into town once every year, me and that one other person would always attend. We two “ringers” would always be the only people from the other major SD camp at the time, the GeerSplinters, as we mostly attended those fellowships at that time.

No CES people would talk to GeerSplinters, and no GeerSplinters would talk to CESers.  We two ringers straddled that line for 10 years.

Everyone huddled into a group that was quickly decided upon, and once there, the leaders would tell [or inspire] them to M&A all other grad groups.

The same applied to the Craigites here, but they were in much smaller numbers. The majority here went with Geer, and only one small twig went with LCM.

The same applies to most GreaseSpotters in my opinion. Lots of digging into their positions, little knowledge of what the others are doing.

I urge patience and info gathering.

*/*/*/*

I have posted on this since several times using terminology like rush to judgement, quick crystallization, and jumping to concussions.

Only just recently have I seen that this topic of snapping applies to several posters’ life stories, and to Charlene in particular. 

My hunch is that snapping to hyper-love towards all that is TWI long ago, is very similar to snapping to hyper-hate towards all that is TWI in later years.

I see both AMS and snapping as good skills that can go wrong.

Some people are more prone to AMS and some are more prone to snapping.

I distinctly remember being jealous of snappers in my early years. My slowness to commit ended up later helping me, but back then it was sometimes a liability.  I missed out on a lot, by being too careful.

I felt I was a very slow learner, and I wanted to be able to jump in all the way. After a lifetime of pondering all this I see that I was excessive in backing off from full commitment. It was fear. I consider it a character trait, a flaw of mine, that needs working on.

Similar introspection may be useful for those who may be the more impulsive types.

Wow cool story.  The missing part is how the VPW idolization happened with YOU.

Because it did.  You are the most rabid VP idolizer on this whole site.  

Want to fill in that part of the story?

Or now that the anti idol schtick did not fly you’re going to try a different tactic, the “snapped” to love and hate idea.

I can see tactically how that lines up with painting Karl Kahlers book negatively.  So “The Cult That Snapped” historical account written by a Way Corps member now instead of it being a cult that snapped instead it was the author.

What did he snap too much towards love?  And thus it led to snapping to hate?

Victim blaming.

The side B to the Law of Believing single record.

Play it Elvis

[waysider]

I've taken the liberty of making a summary. 

Once upon a time, was a guy named Wierwille.

He devised a stinky plan to dupe a bunch of trusting people. Lives were damaged, people died. Some people learned stuff about the bible, though much of it was not true.   In time, the people got wise to his shenanigans and spoke out about their dissatisfaction. Some people became upset about what they said. But, who hasn't done that?? We all do it.

The end. 

 

(They all lived happily ever after)

 

[chockfull]

Once upon a time there was a man.  He took the easy path always.  This led to using people rather than serving them.  He left a statue of “The Teacher”, a manuscript of “VP and Me” an idol and a case study in arse kissing to paint the way for cult followers to follow in his footsteps.

Many chose other paths.  Some chose any path but that one.  

A select few were chosen to repeat history.

We pray for them and are sorry for their lack of learning.

[OldSkool]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

They probably had only one Bible to work with.

I really do try to read along mike...they didnt have bibles then and they went from the scrolls in the synagogues.

Acts 17

And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

In the synagogues was where the scrolls were kept and they weren Gideon Bibles you would find in motel6. It was common practice to ask question of the scribes, pharisees, Drs of the Law and to actually argue with them. They employed true critical thinking skills. If you would actually like to discuss scripture in a meaningful way Im game...if you would like to keep imagining your own reality then were just gonna keep going round and round.

Edited December 22, 2022 by OldSkool

[OldSkool]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

Using that  word “concussions” was deliberate and not a typo or spellcheck. It was an attempt to lighten up a little on a pretty serious subject, and it is descriptive of what can go wrong when this kind of mental jumping happens inappropriately.

 

 

 

Its not an attempt to lighten up its a backhanded comment and it's obvious when you tie in all the times you call people slow, stupid, whatever slap you throw out there. You are seriously deluded. Honestly, I would love an honest conversation but you lack the intellectual honesty to do so. So if we disagree with you then we are suffering similar effects as a concussion ... right. This thread is about as honest as those loaded questions you get in cult land when you dont' tow the line..."Why wouldnt you want to goto ...insert something wierwillian here...?"

[chockfull]

Lord Snappy approves of this thread!

[Twinky]

Mike on another thread is determined that we should see him as "empathetic."  Right.  Really.  

What's empathy?  

Empathy is the capacity to understand or feel what another person is experiencing from within their frame of reference, that is, the capacity to place oneself in another's position.^[1] Definitions of empathy encompass a broad range of social, cognitive, and emotional processes primarily concerned with understanding others (and others' emotions in particular). Types of empathy include cognitive empathy, emotional (or affective) empathy, somatic empathy, and spiritual empathy.^[2][3][4] [Wikipedia]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy

(In nice big font, Mike, so that you can't miss it.)  The  article is lengthy, so it may take you some time to read, but you may learn quite a lot from it.

 

Here's another much shorter article.  Please read it, Mike.  And carefully watch the video at the end (and learn from it).

https://takealtus.com/2020/06/empathy-1/

 

Why is that relevant to this thread?

Because Mike persists in shrieking about "Nazi Corps" without ever thinking about how much some people have given to enter the Corps program; what it has cost them physically, emotionally, in relationships; in other opportunities.  Without doubt everyone tried their best to do the program as directed.  Unfortunately, that included being stomped on from great height, repeatedly, for the most minor infractions - and for that same behaviour to be mimicked by trainees (in rez Corps).  The joy of service and the enthusiasm for service was crushed nearly out of existence, for many of the "Nazi Corps."  And who "Nazi'd" them?  The man who set up the program.  So in condemning "Nazi Corps" Mike is, in effect, condemning VPW, the man who had empathy for none and understood none who had empathy for others.

Now he has a different target in his sights: Charlene.  Charlene, who as a young woman, heard the word and received it with joy.  It filled her heart with enthusiasm and she wanted more and more of it.  In Mikeology, she "snapped."  Because she didn't hang around for 20 years "thinking about it" before she made a decision to follow the Lord (except, unfortunately, it wasn't the Lord but the Liar that she followed).  Mike condemns her for this.  She was too hasty.  I wonder what he knows of her circumstances, that made this choice attractive to her?  Where's his empathy for Charlene?  Did I miss something?

 

Mike, how long did the first disciples take before they joined Jesus on his mission?  Did they take 20 years?  Or did they hear, make a quick decision, and leave their nets and follow him?  Gave up their businesses and their previous lives, and went with someone they'd come to trust because he spoke of the God they longed to know?  Did they "snap," too?

What about Lydia in Acts 16?  She immediately received the word and set about witnessing to others, her whole household, and wanted Paul to stay with her.  Did she "snap"?  Paul writes very well of her later and she did much to fund his ministry. 

What about the jailor that Paul and Silas witnessed to when they were falsely imprisoned?  Verse 34 tells us "The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household."  Did the jailor "snap"?

There are many records in the book of Acts where it appears people were able to make a quick and lifechanging decision to follow the Lord.

 

Mike, just because you can't make a quick decision, doesn't mean that you have any right to condemn those who did.

And just because you have zero empathy for anyone else, doesn't give you any right to condemn or criticise anyone else.  Go walk in someone else's shoes for days, weeks, months, or even 20 years.  Come back and tell us if you learned anything.

[Twinky]

I just posted a lengthy post about empathy.  I am intrigued how Mike might respond.

• (a) He will read bits only, and say it's too long
• (b) He will accuse me of being a "Corps Nazi" and thereby prove my point
• (c) He will ignore the whole thing - thereby also proving my point
• (d) He will take a fragment and use it to go off in some completely random direction
• (e) He will read, acknowledge, and agree that he does not show empathy for others here

Of these, seems to me that (e) is the least probable outcome.

[Nathan_Jr]

26 minutes ago, Twinky said:

VPW, the man who had empathy for none and understood none who had empathy for others.

Mmmph. Seriously, Twinky, mmmph. Damn, what a sentence!

 

[OldSkool]

39 minutes ago, Twinky said:

Now he has a different target in his sights: Charlene.  Charlene, who as a young woman, heard the word and received it with joy.  It filled her heart with enthusiasm and she wanted more and more of it.

If one thing mike has made his own from wierwille it's blame the victim. How dare Charlene write a book accusing wierwille of being a creep....he was the mogfodat...gotta be her fault...David sinned...ya...sounds stupid.

[Bolshevik]

1 hour ago, Twinky said:

I just posted a lengthy post about empathy.  I am intrigued how Mike might respond.

• (a) He will read bits only, and say it's too long
• (b) He will accuse me of being a "Corps Nazi" and thereby prove my point
• (c) He will ignore the whole thing - thereby also proving my point
• (d) He will take a fragment and use it to go off in some completely random direction
• (e) He will read, acknowledge, and agree that he does not show empathy for others here

Of these, seems to me that (e) is the least probable outcome.

 

Ask Mike to point to what color he feels?

[Mike]

3 hours ago, OldSkool said:

I really do try to read along mike...they didnt have bibles then and they went from the scrolls in the synagogues.

Thanks for bringing that up.  I should have used scare quotes.

How's this look?

“The Bereans took it in for deep pondering, worked the scriptures day after day, talked with each other a lot during this scripture party.  They probably had only one “Bible” to work with, which was a bulky set of scrolls in a heavy protective box, called a “bookhouse.”  They compared impressions with each there, in this careful public study. And then they gradually arrived at the point where they were ready to fully believe Paul.”

I added a few words, bold fonted.

They made a slow, deliberate, community decision to believe. Nobody jumped on the decision. It was not emotion based or emotion pumped up.

With light switches, the old-fashioned type was real snappy.

But just the opposite, some new ones are gradual, and called dimmer switches.

I don’t like thinking of my self being jealous of the snappier commitment people in the 1970s, and I dislike even more using the name “dimmer switchers” to apply to me, even though it partially applies. It was often fear that slowed me down in committing, and had I been brighter I’d have figured it out sooner.

Just thinking out loud, trying to come up with a better sounding term than AMS for the opposite of snapping.

Analog vs. digital?

*/*/*/*/*/*

You also wrote:
“In the synagogues was where the scrolls were kept and they weren Gideon Bibles you would find in motel6. It was common practice to ask question of the scribes, pharisees, Drs of the Law and to actually argue with them. They employed true critical thinking skills. If you would actually like to discuss scripture in a meaningful way Im game...if you would like to keep imagining your own reality then were just gonna keep going round and round."

I most certainly would like to do that! 

The conditional clause might need some negotiation, though

If  “…to keep imagining your own reality…”  means that I throw away the set of assumptions I have decided to base my life on for the past 24 years, effectively change my "religion-horse" midstream, and be a proselyte for some religion that meets your approval, then …. then ... I might want to sleep on it a little.

If  “…to keep imagining your own reality…”  means that I focus my posting on the scripture discussion, setting aside my overt and covert calls to “come back to the collaterals”…  then yes, I could SNAP onto that kind of a truce.

I had 20 years to post that message. It is time to move on to the next steps. I've been thinking about this for a while, now.

 

*/*/*/*/*

Might we sweeten the deal with an agreement to set aside the gotcha game?   

That might be more complicated to negotiate, largely because you can’t speak for the others.

What the gotcha game does, besides waste everyone’s time, is it cause me to be over-cautious in what I say. In addition to paying attention to the discussion and offering some honest, serious text to contribute, I have to look at every word and phrase not only to convey meaning, but also to not blow up in my face in a gotcha game, by being misconstrued innocently or deliberately mis-characterized.

So even if you and I agree to drop gotcha, I still have to walk on the gotcha eggshells with everything I say to you, until this idea of discussing meatier subjects catches on. 

Anyway, there’s no rush to this.  I just thought that after 20 years, gotcha is getting boring to everyone, including the folks at home, the “read-only” folks.

[Mike]

2 hours ago, Twinky said:

I just posted a lengthy post about empathy.  I am intrigued how Mike might respond.

• (a) He will read bits only, and say it's too long
• (b) He will accuse me of being a "Corps Nazi" and thereby prove my point
• (c) He will ignore the whole thing - thereby also proving my point
• (d) He will take a fragment and use it to go off in some completely random direction
• (e) He will read, acknowledge, and agree that he does not show empathy for others here

Of these, seems to me that (e) is the least probable outcome.

Thanks for the shorty post, so I can do a shorty PRE-response to your longer one.

In the spirit of the Provisional Peace Treaty just penned with OldSchool (careful, the ink's still wet!) I'll chose Door Number "E."

Yes, in the middle of food fights, and a parade of jeering jesters, I often lose track of my Empathy Engine's throttle. 

I'm trying to, but begging for a little empathy for me also, think of my position a little.  We all know that belittling me can be a sport here at times. It is difficult to turn off my defenses, but I can try.

It's a busy time of year, so I need to be brief. I will have time soon to fully read your long post, and work on this. 

 

*/*/*/*/*

Point to consider: with Penworks, my reading is just to her finishing the class and a little tiny beyond, a little into chapter 13.

Losing my Dad recently I totally empathized with the part about losing her mother, and her mourning lacking closure.  But that is tangential to her story-line, so I did not write about it here, nor do I plan to.  Should I have?  I've not tried to be thorough in my few comments so far about my reading. I'll do that after I finish.  Maybe I should have kept quiet and not posted my early impressions.

I do plan to crank up the empathy with her when the Research Dept thing comes up, because I already went through a couple of years with that confusion myself.   I think I know pretty much what bothered her there.  We will see.  Over the vacation, I'll surely have time to finish it.  I have no idea what else happens in that book.

I'll tell you where I have been totally empathetic toward Penwork, and that is is in my not going to her thread to post my text. 

[Bolshevik]

45 minutes ago, Mike said:

Thanks for the shorty post, so I can do a shorty PRE-response to your longer one.

In the spirit of the Provisional Peace Treaty just penned with OldSchool (careful, the ink's still wet!) I'll chose Door Number "E."

Yes, in the middle of food fights, and a parade of jeering jesters, I often lose track of my Empathy Engine's throttle. 

I'm trying to, but begging for a little empathy for me also, think of my position a little.  We all know that belittling me can be a sport here at times. It is difficult to turn off my defenses, but I can try.

It's a busy time of year, so I need to be brief. I will have time soon to fully read your long post, and work on this. 

 

*/*/*/*/*

Point to consider: with Penworks, my reading is just to her finishing the class and a little tiny beyond, a little into chapter 13.

Losing my Dad recently I totally empathized with the part about losing her mother, and her mourning lacking closure.  But that is tangential to her story-line, so I did not write about it here, nor do I plan to.  Should I have?  I've not tried to be thorough in my few comments so far about my reading. I'll do that after I finish.  Maybe I should have kept quiet and not posted my early impressions.

I do plan to crank up the empathy with her when the Research Dept thing comes up, because I already went through a couple of years with that confusion myself.   I think I know pretty much what bothered her there.  We will see.  Over the vacation, I'll surely have time to finish it.  I have no idea what else happens in that book.

I'll tell you where I have been totally empathetic toward Penwork, and that is is in my not going to her thread to post my text. 

Is the Research Department where they developed different materials for the wooden spoon?

[Mike]

10 hours ago, chockfull said:

Wow cool story.  The missing part is how the VPW idolization happened with YOU.

Because it did.  You are the most rabid VP idolizer on this whole site.  

Want to fill in that part of the story?

Or now that the anti idol schtick did not fly you’re going to try a different tactic, the “snapped” to love and hate idea.

I can see tactically how that lines up with painting Karl Kahlers book negatively.  So “The Cult That Snapped” historical account written by a Way Corps member now instead of it being a cult that snapped instead it was the author.

What did he snap too much towards love?  And thus it led to snapping to hate?

Victim blaming.

The side B to the Law of Believing single record.

Play it Elvis

Ok.

Please allow me to fill in that part of the story:

The short version is it only LOOKS like I idolize VPW.

But using the phrase “idolize VPW” is not the best way to describe those looks.

First of all, VPW is not the target of my message.

I target the written collaterals, and by everyone’s admission here, the sources of that text are varied and large in number. My target is built from all their contributions.

I believe God gave massive revelations to them all, and VPW was a minor contributor, but the major “funnel” by which they delivered to me.

This is a perspective I have hammered out for myself very carefully, fairly recently, not in my youth. I did it with a lot of awareness of my many disagreements and disappointments with VPW that cropped up over the years.  I have recently been posting a number of details, in this regard.

If what I do is idolatry, then it certainly is NOT simple VPW idolatry.  If I were to paste here all my recent digs against him, you would be in agreement that I must be rabidly idolizing something else. 

What I focus at is pretty subtle, and many points were never understood by any frequent posters here now.  …yet.

Most are totally stuck believing I am idolizing VPW.

In order to facilitate communication, please alter your Score Card to say that I am a “written collateral idolizer.”  That would be a more accurate base from which we might debate the word “idolize.”

But if you stay locked onto “Mike idolizes VPW” then we will NEVER communicate. You will misunderstand all that I say, if we can’t agree on WHAT it is that I “idolize.”

You will be criticizing my position position without having adequate knowledge of my position.

Summary of my plea: come half way in my direction.
Say Mike idolizes the collaterals.

*/*/*/*

 

Fifteen years ago, a key element in what I focus on was finally understood by two posters, Abigail and Oakspear.

They did NOT agree with me, but they were the ONLY ones who understood me, on that one key point. There were approximately 70 posters poised to try and debate me out of what NONE of them, but two, understood.

On that one point, Oakspear and Abigail were the only ones I could talk to, and disagree with. It was pointless to reason with those who completely misunderstood my position there.

*/*/*/*

If all that doesn’t convince you, would it convince you if I collected together all my “startling admissions” of VPW falling short of my expectations? I would bet WW has a folder of them, just in case they come in handy. 

Mike idolizes the books.
Meet me half way, please?

*/*/*/*/*

You wrote:
Or now that the anti idol schtick did not fly you’re going to try a different tactic, the “snapped” to love and hate idea.

No, I am trying to change gears totally here starting today.  I’ll keep on trying that new approach here with you. 

With the anti-idol schtick, I thought I’d try and describe what I mean there without the dramatics.  But not this minute.

I started that different tone in my opening of this thread, and explaining the snap thing in a non-adversarial way. I see it as an explanatory tool. I’ll explain more as I deal with the specifics of Twinky’s post.

*/*/*/*/*

You wrote:
I can see tactically how that lines up with painting Karl Kahlers book negatively.  So “The Cult That Snapped” historical account written by a Way Corps member now instead of it being a cult that snapped instead it was the author.

I honestly forgot all about his book, and never read it. If he wrote it after 2002, then I have proof that I came up with the snap idea before him, I just didn’t use the word snap back then. My opening post on this thread explains how I was observing “snappers” in the 1979s who were doing it appropriately, and I wished I could imitate them.

I have no idea what Karl said in his book.

I was not attracted to it. I was attracted to GreaseSpot for Grad News, which was difficult to come by in 2001.  I wanted grad news of all sorts. Friend Tracker was also a major draw for me here. Karl Kahler was just a blip in all that for me, in the year that I was read-only lurker.

I never had any intention of posting here. It was too negative for me, so I skimmed lots of things. But I appreciated that GSC was a NETWORKING HUB for PFAL grads.  That was special to me. I had gone through the GreaseSpot LIVE version in 1987, and I probably associated Karl’s book with that event. I had enough of whistles blown to last a lifetime at that time. That book never interested me. I don’t remember any reason why, other than time budgets.

The term “snap” I got from (but only vaguely remember) an old TWI weekly tape, SNT #965  “The Man Who ‘Snapped.’”

It was about Paul’s conversion, I think. Maybe it just started with that and went on to something else. I can get much more info on this if anyone is interested. Like a transcript.

[waysider]

4 hours ago, Mike said:

Say Mike idolizes the collaterals.

Mike idolizes the collaterals.

[OldSkool]

9 hours ago, Mike said:

Might we sweeten the deal with an agreement to set aside the gotcha game?

Gotcha game = dont disagree with mike...or call mike out on inconsistencies or errors, or fantasy land imagining. 

[Twinky]

6 hours ago, Mike said:

I target the written collaterals, and by everyone’s admission here, the sources of that text are varied and large in number. My target is built from all their contributions.

I believe God gave massive revelations to them all, and VPW was a minor contributor, but the major “funnel” by which they delivered to me.

...

If what I do is idolatry, then it certainly is NOT simple VPW idolatry.  If I were to paste here all my recent digs against him, you would be in agreement that I must be rabidly idolizing something else. 

...

But if you stay locked onto “Mike idolizes VPW” then we will NEVER communicate. You will misunderstand all that I say, if we can’t agree on WHAT it is that I “idolize.”

...

Say Mike idolizes the collaterals.

VPW put his name to all the collaterals, whether or not anyone else contributed to them.  It's his name on all the books.  No-one else has attribution.

Ps 138:2  I will worship toward thy holy temple, And give thanks unto thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: For thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Or,  in the MikeBible:

Mike will worship towards the VPW auditorium, and give thanks unto VPW's name for his {???} and for his "truth": For Mike has magnified VPW's word above all VPW's name.

And that's not idolizing VPW?

[chockfull]

6 hours ago, Mike said:

Ok.

 

 

Please allow me to fill in that part of the story:

 

 

The short version is it only LOOKS like I idolize VPW.

 

 

But using the phrase “idolize VPW” is not the best way to describe those looks.

 

 

First of all, VPW is not the target of my message.

 

 

I target the written collaterals, and by everyone’s admission here, the sources of that text are varied and large in number. My target is built from all their contributions.

 

 

I believe God gave massive revelations to them all, and VPW was a minor contributor, but the major “funnel” by which they delivered to me.

 

 

This is a perspective I have hammered out for myself very carefully, fairly recently, not in my youth. I did it with a lot of awareness of my many disagreements and disappointments with VPW that cropped up over the years.  I have recently been posting a number of details, in this regard.

 

 

If what I do is idolatry, then it certainly is NOT simple VPW idolatry.  If I were to paste here all my recent digs against him, you would be in agreement that I must be rabidly idolizing something else. 

 

 

What I focus at is pretty subtle, and many points were never understood by any frequent posters here now.  …yet.

 

 

Most are totally stuck believing I am idolizing VPW.

 

 

In order to facilitate communication, please alter your Score Card to say that I am a “written collateral idolizer.”  That would be a more accurate base from which we might debate the word “idolize.”

 

 

But if you stay locked onto “Mike idolizes VPW” then we will NEVER communicate. You will misunderstand all that I say, if we can’t agree on WHAT it is that I “idolize.”

 

 

You will be criticizing my position position without having adequate knowledge of my position.

 

 

Summary of my plea: come half way in my direction.
Say Mike idolizes the collaterals.

 

 

*/*/*/*

 

 

 

 

 

Fifteen years ago, a key element in what I focus on was finally understood by two posters, Abigail and Oakspear.

 

 

They did NOT agree with me, but they were the ONLY ones who understood me, on that one key point. There were approximately 70 posters poised to try and debate me out of what NONE of them, but two, understood.

 

 

On that one point, Oakspear and Abigail were the only ones I could talk to, and disagree with. It was pointless to reason with those who completely misunderstood my position there.

 

 

*/*/*/*

 

 

If all that doesn’t convince you, would it convince you if I collected together all my “startling admissions” of VPW falling short of my expectations? I would bet WW has a folder of them, just in case they come in handy. 

 

 

Mike idolizes the books.
Meet me half way, please?

 

 

*/*/*/*/*

 

 

You wrote:
Or now that the anti idol schtick did not fly you’re going to try a different tactic, the “snapped” to love and hate idea.

No, I am trying to change gears totally here starting today.  I’ll keep on trying that new approach here with you. 

With the anti-idol schtick, I thought I’d try and describe what I mean there without the dramatics.  But not this minute.

I started that different tone in my opening of this thread, and explaining the snap thing in a non-adversarial way. I see it as an explanatory tool. I’ll explain more as I deal with the specifics of Twinky’s post.

*/*/*/*/*

You wrote:
I can see tactically how that lines up with painting Karl Kahlers book negatively.  So “The Cult That Snapped” historical account written by a Way Corps member now instead of it being a cult that snapped instead it was the author.

I honestly forgot all about his book, and never read it. If he wrote it after 2002, then I have proof that I came up with the snap idea before him, I just didn’t use the word snap back then. My opening post on this thread explains how I was observing “snappers” in the 1979s who were doing it appropriately, and I wished I could imitate them.

I have no idea what Karl said in his book.

I was not attracted to it. I was attracted to GreaseSpot for Grad News, which was difficult to come by in 2001.  I wanted grad news of all sorts. Friend Tracker was also a major draw for me here. Karl Kahler was just a blip in all that for me, in the year that I was read-only lurker.

I never had any intention of posting here. It was too negative for me, so I skimmed lots of things. But I appreciated that GSC was a NETWORKING HUB for PFAL grads.  That was special to me. I had gone through the GreaseSpot LIVE version in 1987, and I probably associated Karl’s book with that event. I had enough of whistles blown to last a lifetime at that time. That book never interested me. I don’t remember any reason why, other than time budgets.

The term “snap” I got from (but only vaguely remember) an old TWI weekly tape, SNT #965  “The Man Who ‘Snapped.’”

It was about Paul’s conversion, I think. Maybe it just started with that and went on to something else. I can get much more info on this if anyone is interested. Like a transcript.

Mike idolizes VPW who is the author of the collaterals, and PFAL and RHST.

Unless he is introducing a “funnel” as a new “gift ministry”.

Now that you mention it, it has potential.  A funnel takes a large volume of info and focuses it to a small area output.

A funnel has no soul.

A funnel just passes info through it.

If the devil possesses someone are they his “funnel”

I should actually write my version of TWI history.  I could call it “Fun with funnels”

Merry Xmas my funnelicious “friend”

[chockfull]

Just putting it out there - “snapped” is usually a term in conversation that refers to a psychotic break of some kind.

Not sure if that is a great analogy to talk about the new birth in.

Just a thought.

Edited December 23, 2022 by chockfull