"You cannot go beyond what you are taught" is a command. Love = obedience. It's transactional, conditional, and you need to keep putting quarters in the machine.
This only happened to me yesterday! A local Christian friend of mine sent me an email (not only me but everyone on his email list.) After reading this unusual email, I immediately called him up and mentioned that I was in TWI for some 20 years, and asked to talk soon. Below is the pertinent part of what he wrote; the names have been redacted.
----------
Ok, the baptism in the holy spirit (pneuma hagion).
I did not plan on going to be baptized in the holy spirit; I did not even know that was available.
Jumping ahead and to be revisited below, I can now speak in tongues. This is just one of the nine manifestations of the holy spirit (pneuma hagion).
When V******* and I spoke on the phone back in November, I told her a fast was laid on my heart. I explained I wanted to conduct this fast at her house.
V*******, N***, and A**** are all born again Saints. It is a godly house.
I will say this with certainty, if you dedicate yourself to the course, youwill bebaptized in the holy spirit, as I was and her son, N***. We completed the course together.
Going back to our conversation in November, V******* kindly obliged to host me for my fast and she brought up the course she leads and teaches:
Power for Abundant Living - which is the master class course presided over by Victor Paul Wierwille, PhD.
Dr. Wierwille dedicated much of his adult life to rightly dividing the Word of God.
As stated last week:
From the second Epistle of Paul the Apostle to Timothy, chapter 2, verse 15:
Studie to shewe thy self approued vnto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,rightly diuiding the word of trueth.
As Dr. Wierwille accurately stated, to receive anything from God, we must know:
What is available
How to receive it
What to do with it after receiving it
We must always go back to His Word for answers. His Word is the only source of truth.
God has a purpose for every single Word of the Bible and its place.
You cannot go beyond what you are taught.
That was a major theme last week in the Bible study course.
From the Book of the Prophet Hosea, chapter 4, verse 6:
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me : seeing thou hast forgotten the lawe of thy God, I wil also forget thy children.
It is by no mistake, nor accident that God made this Divine appointment of V******* and I by way of G*** and S******, as explained last week.
We, His children, are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.
Truly,you cannot go beyond what you are taught.
It baffles me that I have not heard of the baptism in the holy spirit. I am surrounded by Saints, I go to two Services on Sunday, but the baptism in the holy spirit has eluded my eares.
Nonetheless, the ways of God are perfect and He chose V******* to lead my baptism by way of Dr. Wierwille.
Praise be God for that. This was precisely as it was meant to happen.
What are the nine manifestations of the holy spirit?
From the first Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians, chapter 12, verses 1, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, & 13:
1.Now concerning spirituall giftes (matters)brethren,I would not haue you ignorant.
7. But the manifestation of the spirit is giuen to euery man to profit withall.
8. For to one is giuen by the spirit,the word of wisedome, to anotherthe word of knowledge, by the same spirit.
9.To anotherfaith, by the same spirit : to anotherthe gifts of healing, by the same spirit :
10. To anotherthe working of miracles, to another prophecie, to anotherdiscerning of spirits, to anotherdivers kindes of tongues, to anotherthe interpretations of tongues.
11. But all these worketh that one and the self same spirit, diuiding to euery man seuerally as he will.
12. For as the body is one, and hath many members, andall the members of that one body, being many, are one bodie : so also is Christ.
13.For by one spirit are we all baptized into one bodie, whether wee bee Jewes of Gentiles, whether wee bee bond or free : and haue beene all made to drinke into one spirit.
As stated above, I can now speak in tongues.
If you ask of it, I will speak in tongues in front of you. However, it is not a show. It is simply a sign to you. Please grant me liberty on that.
Speaking in tongues is for private prayer or for interpretation in a meeting of believers.
Each man, each woman speaks in their own tongue.
Speaking in tongues is speaking in the Spirit, which was granted to born again believers. Works need be done to operate the nine manifestations.
From the first Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians, chapter 14, verse 2:
For he that speaketh in an unknowen tongue,speaketh not vnto men,but vnto God: for no man vnderstandeth him :howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
I was taught the water baptism, not the baptism in the holy spirit (pneuma hagion).
From the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 1, verse 5:
For John truely baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the holy Ghost, not many days hence.
From the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 11, verse 16:
Then remembered I the word of the LORD, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water : but ye shall be baptized in the holy Ghost.
From the Gospel according to Matthew, chapter 28, verse 19:
Goe ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Sonne, and of the holy Ghost.
Again, my friends:
You cannot go beyond what you are taught.
I was only taught the baptism of John which is the water baptism.
I knew not of the baptism in the holy spirit.
Now, I do know and, now, I am baptized in the holy spirit.
Understand this my friends, I will not sit idly with this baptism.
I plan on using these manifestations to serve, as Jesus in the flesh did. For the same holy spirit (pneuma hagion) that was in His flesh, is also in my flesh.
Water cannot save us. Listed at the bottom of theseLedger's is how you can be saved.
If you would like to know or learn more, I can be a resource to you.
With that, my heart is overfilled with love:
----------
Blessings to You and Yours
I wish you a blessed time where we honor the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, our LORD who took on the flesh of man.
I pray it is a joyous time for you, I pray for your travels to, during, and from, I pray for His love to be poured upon you.
In His most precious Name, I do love you as a brother and as a sister.
God bless you firmly!
----------
Pray. Pray without ceasing.
You can save yourself this morning.
From the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romanes, chapter 10, verses 9 & 10:
9. That if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the LORD Jesus, and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saued.
10. For with the heart man beleeueth vnto righteousnesse, and with the mouth confession is made vnto saluation.
This is a very strange letter. I had to read it a few times to catch the gist.
Someone who is already a Christian took the PFAL class. From your title and the description not sure if it was the 65 VPW videos or the new PFAL sanctioned by TWI.
It sounds like me or most of us right after taking the class. Very emotionally hyped, excited about this new interpretation of baptism and the new charts on HS hs.
Spews out Rom 10:9,10 like it is a chores checklist you have to get through before you can do the really powerful stuff lo shanta. Believing from the heart from my perspective involves more than charts and checklists.
”Water cannot save us” ? Whaaaaaaaat?
Water never did. You can see how the logic is mixed up and has holes just like VPW research.
”If you would like to know or learn more, I can be a resource for you”
Already the false elitism and false household are established.
I will pray for this individual because I see them on a path that will produce at least a decade of destruction in their life. While not being able to see it.
This is a very strange letter. I had to read it a few times to catch the gist.
Someone who is already a Christian took the PFAL class. From your title and the description not sure if it was the 65 VPW videos or the new PFAL sanctioned by TWI.
I will pray for this individual because I see them on a path that will produce at least a decade of destruction in their life. While not being able to see it.
When I talk to him will find out exactly which class it was. Video? Audio? New revamped? His use of the words "available" and "manifestations" got me thinking that he took the original, but I will find out. Thx for your prayers. I mentioned to him about posting this so maybe he will come on here at some point? I also mentioned to him about the RC church spiritual gifts/manifestions meeting that I go to sometimes, and he may want to check that out at some point.
I will pray for this individual because I see them on a path that will produce at least a decade of destruction in their life. While not being able to see it.
Don't worry, as long as they focus on mastering the written collaterals they should be just fine. /s
When I talk to him will find out exactly which class it was. Video? Audio? New revamped? His use of the words "available" and "manifestations" got me thinking that he took the original, but I will find out. Thx for your prayers. I mentioned to him about posting this so maybe he will come on here at some point? I also mentioned to him about the RC church spiritual gifts/manifestions meeting that I go to sometimes, and he may want to check that out at some point.
If our infinite musings can benefit another soul I’m glad. Broadening the horizons to an RC group outside TWI sounds like it would help even more. Real live people with active faith not in a cult.
"You cannot go beyond what you are taught" is a command. Love = obedience. It's transactional, conditional, and you need to keep putting quarters in the machine.
How certain are you of the interpretation the phrase you quoted is a command? I see it differently but find your take to be intriguing.
At this time, I see the phrase as a declaration based on assessment or personal inference.
I suppose Victor's intent could have been an effort to place constraints on the minds of his listeners.
How certain are you of the interpretation the phrase you quoted is a command? I see it differently but find your take to be intriguing.
At this time, I see the phrase as a declaration based on assessment or personal inference.
I suppose Victor's intent could have been an effort to place constraints on the minds of his listeners.
I'm unclear about your second sentence.
A door with a sign that says "Do Not Enter" . . . sounds like a command . . . I could choose to enter (if it isn't locked too well) . . . or I could obey the sign
You can't go beyond what you are taught . . . beyond where? Taught by who? taught about what?. . . It's vague
We literally gain abilities simply by not dying . . . from the day we are born our brains and bodies keep growing and acquiring new skills regardless of education
Edited by Bolshevik Nobody spells better than they are taught
How certain are you of the interpretation the phrase you quoted is a command? I see it differently but find your take to be intriguing.
At this time, I see the phrase as a declaration based on assessment or personal inference.
I suppose Victor's intent could have been an effort to place constraints on the minds of his listeners.
Rocky, you “suppose” victor’s intent was constraint of listener’s minds?
I’m surprised. I thought that had been established — the 2nd time did it.
I think understanding that phrase as a command is insightful. It’s so often repeated. It’s a mantra.
It’s subtle, cunning. One is unaware they are obeying the command when they choose not to go beyond what they have been taught. They are obedient doulos of sound mind when not going beyond the teaching.
The whole point is to NOT go beyond. Surely, you CAN, but he doesn’t want you to, so you don’t. You will be out of the household or family or protection… It’s a command, phrased as a suggestive aphorism.
How certain are you of the interpretation the phrase you quoted is a command? I see it differently but find your take to be intriguing.
At this time, I see the phrase as a declaration based on assessment or personal inference.
I suppose Victor's intent could have been an effort to place constraints on the minds of his listeners.
You mentioned on another thread how folks we look up to can "take ourselves off the hook" . . . take the responsibility of doing the work off of ourselves
If we accept "we can't go beyond" . . . . that certainly puts VPW up on the pedestal . . . cause he is beyond . . . God taught VPW and now VPW is special
When I talk to him will find out exactly which class it was. Video? Audio? New revamped? His use of the words "available" and "manifestations" got me thinking that he took the original, but I will find out. Thx for your prayers. I mentioned to him about posting this so maybe he will come on here at some point? I also mentioned to him about the RC church spiritual gifts/manifestions meeting that I go to sometimes, and he may want to check that out at some point.
Personally, I think it's a very heart felt letter and it's obvious the author is having a spiritual awakening of sorts. I can relate to the enthuisaism and innocence in his choice of words...cool stuff. Oldiesman...if you have any influence over your friend perhaps you will be able to steer him away from getting further caught up in the cult. There is a honey moon stage with most people when they join up with TWI. Happened to me and ive seen others go through it too...its where a person starts learning scripture and begins to see God's love and glory in the face of Jesus Christ and they are on fire and then they get bait and switched by TWI into cult world and the real Jesus Christ gets supplanted by the absent one. Anyone ever needs look no further than Jesus Christ...no fake wierwilles necessary. Awesom lettter though, thanks for sharing.
Personally, I think it's a very heart felt letter and it's obvious the author is having a spiritual awakening of sorts. I can relate to the enthuisaism and innocence in his choice of words...cool stuff. Oldiesman...if you have any influence over your friend perhaps you will be able to steer him away from getting further caught up in the cult. There is a honey moon stage with most people when they join up with TWI. Happened to me and ive seen others go through it too...its where a person starts learning scripture and begins to see God's love and glory in the face of Jesus Christ and they are on fire and then they get bait and switched by TWI into cult world and the real Jesus Christ gets supplanted by the absent one. Anyone ever needs look no further than Jesus Christ...no fake wierwilles necessary. Awesom lettter though, thanks for sharing.
Your point is well taken. I will watch out for him.
"What's reading for?" I whispered. "Well," she explained "it's for ideas. It's how we learn things. You know, when I was a little girl, I didn't go to Systemite school either. I lived in Switzerland and my teacher spoke mostly in French before she joined The Family. It was okay, though, because once I learned to read, I could teach myself things. There are so many good lessons in the Mo letters from Grandpa and that's why we don't need to go to school--he teaches us the right things. And you know Systemite schools teach the wrong things, right?"
"The thing I want you to understand, Dani Baby," Mom said, suddenly looking right at me, her eyes big like mine, "is that you don't need school at all. The only thing you really need in life is for someone to teach you how to read. Once you know how to read, you can teach yourself anything you want in the world--math, history, science..."
So, without being able to peer inside the mind and heart of Victor Wierwille, WE can look at his PFLAP indoctrination with new insight from the recollections of others subjected to cult indoctrination. Again, it doesn't "establish" his motivation, but it does suggest he was setting up BRAINWASHING of vulnerable and susceptible (mostly) young people. And it DOES show the antidote for any and everyone who chooses not to be thus constrained about "how far they can go."
Despite what a certain poster says here, I love that we have the internet. Because I can read all sorts of things, and learn all sorts of things. As I've said before: I even use the net in my gardening work - how? to find out how to tend a new-to-me plant; to find out what kind of disease a plant may be suffering, and how to treat it; to find the best way or time to prune something, and so on. Furthermore, I "travel" around the world and see places I've never been. Find out how to fix my car. Find out about an illness someone is suffering. Learn Biblical archaeology. Learn how to fit things together in new ways. I go much further than any one person "taught" me.
Reading! Wow, been doing it since a very tiny girl (probably nearly 3; well before age 4 I was reading, and writing.
It's dictatorships that want to ban reading, curtail what outside knowledge a person has access to. Censors books, limits access to non-approved websites.
Despite that, I don't disapprove of VPW's "suggestion" that new grads of PFAL "put aside all other reading material for the next three months, and just read the epistles." It does serve to immerse the new Christian in facets of the Christian lifestyle. It might have been better if he'd encouraged reading the gospels, or any place in the NT on a systematic basis. (In fact, it was that exhortation, to read the epistles, that "hooked" me - not the crappy class - no church I'd ever attended encouraged that - epistles as entire pieces of work were all new to me.)
Read, people. Read widely and carefully and not just from one source. See how this ties in with my thread on "Consider the Evidence"?
Despite what a certain poster says here, I love that we have the internet. Because I can read all sorts of things, and learn all sorts of things. As I've said before: I even use the net in my gardening work - how? to find out how to tend a new-to-me plant; to find out what kind of disease a plant may be suffering, and how to treat it; to find the best way or time to prune something, and so on. Furthermore, I "travel" around the world and see places I've never been. Find out how to fix my car. Find out about an illness someone is suffering. Learn Biblical archaeology. Learn how to fit things together in new ways. I go much further than any one person "taught" me.
Reading! Wow, been doing it since a very tiny girl (probably nearly 3; well before age 4 I was reading, and writing.
It's dictatorships that want to ban reading, curtail what outside knowledge a person has access to. Censors books, limits access to non-approved websites.
Despite that, I don't disapprove of VPW's "suggestion" that new grads of PFAL "put aside all other reading material for the next three months, and just read the epistles." It does serve to immerse the new Christian in facets of the Christian lifestyle. It might have been better if he'd encouraged reading the gospels, or any place in the NT on a systematic basis. (In fact, it was that exhortation, to read the epistles, that "hooked" me - not the crappy class - no church I'd ever attended encouraged that - epistles as entire pieces of work were all new to me.)
Read, people. Read widely and carefully and not just from one source. See how this ties in with my thread on "Consider the Evidence"?
Yes, it's important that everyone, everywhere of all ages knows exactly who is banging who, and we know this via the internet.
By reading, we can judge others not on our experience with them, but because IT IS WRITTEN.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
13
18
19
18
Popular Days
Dec 30
43
Dec 22
18
Dec 31
17
Jan 1
14
Top Posters In This Topic
Rocky 13 posts
Mike 18 posts
Bolshevik 19 posts
Nathan_Jr 18 posts
Popular Days
Dec 30 2022
43 posts
Dec 22 2022
18 posts
Dec 31 2022
17 posts
Jan 1 2023
14 posts
Popular Posts
Nathan_Jr
I'm not trying to have a conversation with Mike, even if that's what it looks like. I am telling my story. My story is not meaningless, though a conversion with Mike is beyond meaningless, as you so a
Twinky
I think we have a pretty good teacher. If you can go beyond what the holy spirit is willing to teach - well, you're doing well. You must be bigger than God. Whose knowledge is infinite. John 1
Bolshevik
"You cannot go beyond what you are taught" is a command. Love = obedience. It's transactional, conditional, and you need to keep putting quarters in the machine.
Bolshevik
"You cannot go beyond what you are taught" is a command. Love = obedience. It's transactional, conditional, and you need to keep putting quarters in the machine.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
And so, the long journey out of darkness begins.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Mmmph
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
This is a very strange letter. I had to read it a few times to catch the gist.
Someone who is already a Christian took the PFAL class. From your title and the description not sure if it was the 65 VPW videos or the new PFAL sanctioned by TWI.
It sounds like me or most of us right after taking the class. Very emotionally hyped, excited about this new interpretation of baptism and the new charts on HS hs.
Spews out Rom 10:9,10 like it is a chores checklist you have to get through before you can do the really powerful stuff lo shanta. Believing from the heart from my perspective involves more than charts and checklists.
”Water cannot save us” ? Whaaaaaaaat?
Water never did. You can see how the logic is mixed up and has holes just like VPW research.
”If you would like to know or learn more, I can be a resource for you”
Already the false elitism and false household are established.
I will pray for this individual because I see them on a path that will produce at least a decade of destruction in their life. While not being able to see it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Your friend is a quick learner. He doesn't even realize what he wrote, but he got it right. So, so right. He passed the test.
So sinister... so cunning...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
When I talk to him will find out exactly which class it was. Video? Audio? New revamped? His use of the words "available" and "manifestations" got me thinking that he took the original, but I will find out. Thx for your prayers. I mentioned to him about posting this so maybe he will come on here at some point? I also mentioned to him about the RC church spiritual gifts/manifestions meeting that I go to sometimes, and he may want to check that out at some point.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Don't worry, as long as they focus on mastering the written collaterals they should be just fine. /s
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
If our infinite musings can benefit another soul I’m glad. Broadening the horizons to an RC group outside TWI sounds like it would help even more. Real live people with active faith not in a cult.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
How certain are you of the interpretation the phrase you quoted is a command? I see it differently but find your take to be intriguing.
At this time, I see the phrase as a declaration based on assessment or personal inference.
I suppose Victor's intent could have been an effort to place constraints on the minds of his listeners.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
I'm unclear about your second sentence.
A door with a sign that says "Do Not Enter" . . . sounds like a command . . . I could choose to enter (if it isn't locked too well) . . . or I could obey the sign
You can't go beyond what you are taught . . . beyond where? Taught by who? taught about what?. . . It's vague
We literally gain abilities simply by not dying . . . from the day we are born our brains and bodies keep growing and acquiring new skills regardless of education
Edited by BolshevikNobody spells better than they are taught
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Rocky, you “suppose” victor’s intent was constraint of listener’s minds?
I’m surprised. I thought that had been established — the 2nd time did it.
I think understanding that phrase as a command is insightful. It’s so often repeated. It’s a mantra.
It’s subtle, cunning. One is unaware they are obeying the command when they choose not to go beyond what they have been taught. They are obedient doulos of sound mind when not going beyond the teaching.
The whole point is to NOT go beyond. Surely, you CAN, but he doesn’t want you to, so you don’t. You will be out of the household or family or protection… It’s a command, phrased as a suggestive aphorism.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
You mentioned on another thread how folks we look up to can "take ourselves off the hook" . . . take the responsibility of doing the work off of ourselves
If we accept "we can't go beyond" . . . . that certainly puts VPW up on the pedestal . . . cause he is beyond . . . God taught VPW and now VPW is special
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
I like his enthusiasm. Perhaps many of us were as enthusiastic, too, when we first learned of God's goodness.
Please don't let this keen newbie remain in the state of delusion too long. Hope Oldies can redirect him.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Are you sure that was me?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Thanks. Has this not been established? I'm sure it has been explored. Or maybe not.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Do I know that I know that I know that I know that I know?
Is that emphatic? I don't know.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Personally, I think it's a very heart felt letter and it's obvious the author is having a spiritual awakening of sorts. I can relate to the enthuisaism and innocence in his choice of words...cool stuff. Oldiesman...if you have any influence over your friend perhaps you will be able to steer him away from getting further caught up in the cult. There is a honey moon stage with most people when they join up with TWI. Happened to me and ive seen others go through it too...its where a person starts learning scripture and begins to see God's love and glory in the face of Jesus Christ and they are on fire and then they get bait and switched by TWI into cult world and the real Jesus Christ gets supplanted by the absent one. Anyone ever needs look no further than Jesus Christ...no fake wierwilles necessary. Awesom lettter though, thanks for sharing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Your point is well taken. I will watch out for him.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
I just read this in UnCULTured: a memoir, by Daniella Mestyanek Young [pgs 21 and 22]who is a survivor of the Children of God cult:
Edited by RockyLink to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Also from page 22 of UnCULTured:
So, without being able to peer inside the mind and heart of Victor Wierwille, WE can look at his PFLAP indoctrination with new insight from the recollections of others subjected to cult indoctrination. Again, it doesn't "establish" his motivation, but it does suggest he was setting up BRAINWASHING of vulnerable and susceptible (mostly) young people. And it DOES show the antidote for any and everyone who chooses not to be thus constrained about "how far they can go."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Despite what a certain poster says here, I love that we have the internet. Because I can read all sorts of things, and learn all sorts of things. As I've said before: I even use the net in my gardening work - how? to find out how to tend a new-to-me plant; to find out what kind of disease a plant may be suffering, and how to treat it; to find the best way or time to prune something, and so on. Furthermore, I "travel" around the world and see places I've never been. Find out how to fix my car. Find out about an illness someone is suffering. Learn Biblical archaeology. Learn how to fit things together in new ways. I go much further than any one person "taught" me.
Reading! Wow, been doing it since a very tiny girl (probably nearly 3; well before age 4 I was reading, and writing.
It's dictatorships that want to ban reading, curtail what outside knowledge a person has access to. Censors books, limits access to non-approved websites.
Despite that, I don't disapprove of VPW's "suggestion" that new grads of PFAL "put aside all other reading material for the next three months, and just read the epistles." It does serve to immerse the new Christian in facets of the Christian lifestyle. It might have been better if he'd encouraged reading the gospels, or any place in the NT on a systematic basis. (In fact, it was that exhortation, to read the epistles, that "hooked" me - not the crappy class - no church I'd ever attended encouraged that - epistles as entire pieces of work were all new to me.)
Read, people. Read widely and carefully and not just from one source. See how this ties in with my thread on "Consider the Evidence"?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Yes, it's important that everyone, everywhere of all ages knows exactly who is banging who, and we know this via the internet.
By reading, we can judge others not on our experience with them, but because IT IS WRITTEN.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.