Now I'm supposed to operate nine manifestations and engage in the competition . . . honestly I don't think the store will run out of food . . . but okay it says to get into farming now. I guess the manual labor will help me remember better next time.
The main difference that I see is that in stoicism one goes through hardships alone, relying on one’s own willpower. A follower of Christianity is never alone, per the numerous passages that indicate God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit...for example:
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,
In my opinion, the Way Mag article you posted seems to emphasize one’s own willpower and knowledge of the Bible – in that regard I think it closely resembles stoicism where one represses or ignores feelings and endures pain. The article keeps bringing the solution back to a knowledge of the Bible...problem with that is our knowledge could be faulty, or we forget or deliberately disregard a passage that might be most applicable to our situation.
I see problems in that. The propensity to be dogmatic about the Bible – especially in a group like TWI that leans heavily toward fundamentalism – there is the danger of repressing or ignoring the influence of the Holy Spirit – which at times can be subtle – a gut feeling – an intuition.
In TWI I was repeatedly reminded to ignore feelings and repress emotions. wierwille’s twisted interpretation and misapplication of Scripture had more authority than one’s own conscience. It didn’t seem to faze wierwille one bit to show a porn video to our family corps - under the pretext of prepping us to counsel others. Setting aside the inappropriateness in this man-of-god-teacher/students scenario he callously ignored the offended and freaked out feelings that were unmistakable in most of us – dismissing it with saying stuff like “I’ve so renewed my mind that this stuff doesn’t bother me.” I think wierwille’s idea of the renewed mind is more along the lines of mind control.
~ ~ ~ ~
I think there are some similarities between Christianity and Stoicism as far as philosophical concepts go:
The apostle Paul met with Stoics during his stay in Athens, reported in Acts 17:16–18. In his letters, Paul reflected heavily from his knowledge of Stoic philosophy, using Stoic terms and metaphors to assist his new Gentile converts in their understanding of Christianity.[54] This is seen, for example, in 1 Corinthians 11, in which Paul enjoins the ordinance of headcovering with a cloth veil by appealing to nature in a reductio ad absurdum: "if there is something especially suitable about a woman’s head being covered, then she should be glad to wear a headcovering in addition to the long hair."[55] Stoic influence can also be seen in the works of St. Ambrose, Marcus Minucius Felix, and Tertullian.[56]
The Fathers of the Church regarded Stoicism as a "pagan philosophy";[57][58] nonetheless, early Christian writers employed some of the central philosophical concepts of Stoicism. Examples include the terms "logos", "virtue", "Spirit", and "conscience".[29] But the parallels go well beyond the sharing and borrowing of terminology. Both Stoicism and Christianity assert an inner freedom in the face of the external world, a belief in human kinship with Nature or God, a sense of the innate depravity—or "persistent evil"—of humankind,[29] and the futility and temporary nature of worldly possessions and attachments. Both encourage Ascesis with respect to the passions and inferior emotions, such as lust, and envy, so that the higher possibilities of one's humanity can be awakened and developed.
Middle and Roman Stoics taught that sex is just within marriage, for unitive and procreative purposes only.[59][60] This teaching is accepted by the Catholic Church to this day.[61]
The main difference that I see is that in stoicism one goes through hardships alone, relying on one’s own willpower. A follower of Christianity is never alone, per the numerous passages that indicate God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit...for example:
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,
In my opinion, the Way Mag article you posted seems to emphasize one’s own willpower and knowledge of the Bible – in that regard I think it closely resembles stoicism where one represses or ignores feelings and endures pain. The article keeps bringing the solution back to a knowledge of the Bible...problem with that is our knowledge could be faulty, or we forget or deliberately disregard a passage that might be most applicable to our situation.
I see problems in that. The propensity to be dogmatic about the Bible – especially in a group like TWI that leans heavily toward fundamentalism – there is the danger of repressing or ignoring the influence of the Holy Spirit – which at times can be subtle – a gut feeling – an intuition.
In TWI I was repeatedly reminded to ignore feelings and repress emotions. wierwille’s twisted interpretation and misapplication of Scripture had more authority than one’s own conscience. It didn’t seem to faze wierwille one bit to show a porn video to our family corps - under the pretext of prepping us to counsel others. Setting aside the inappropriateness in this man-of-god-teacher/students scenario he callously ignored the offended and freaked out feelings that were unmistakable in most of us – dismissing it with saying stuff like “I’ve so renewed my mind that this stuff doesn’t bother me.” I think wierwille’s idea of the renewed mind is more along the lines of mind control.
~ ~ ~ ~
I think there are some similarities between Christianity and Stoicism as far as philosophical concepts go:
The apostle Paul met with Stoics during his stay in Athens, reported in Acts 17:16–18. In his letters, Paul reflected heavily from his knowledge of Stoic philosophy, using Stoic terms and metaphors to assist his new Gentile converts in their understanding of Christianity.[54] This is seen, for example, in 1 Corinthians 11, in which Paul enjoins the ordinance of headcovering with a cloth veil by appealing to nature in a reductio ad absurdum: "if there is something especially suitable about a woman’s head being covered, then she should be glad to wear a headcovering in addition to the long hair."[55] Stoic influence can also be seen in the works of St. Ambrose, Marcus Minucius Felix, and Tertullian.[56]
The Fathers of the Church regarded Stoicism as a "pagan philosophy";[57][58] nonetheless, early Christian writers employed some of the central philosophical concepts of Stoicism. Examples include the terms "logos", "virtue", "Spirit", and "conscience".[29] But the parallels go well beyond the sharing and borrowing of terminology. Both Stoicism and Christianity assert an inner freedom in the face of the external world, a belief in human kinship with Nature or God, a sense of the innate depravity—or "persistent evil"—of humankind,[29] and the futility and temporary nature of worldly possessions and attachments. Both encourage Ascesis with respect to the passions and inferior emotions, such as lust, and envy, so that the higher possibilities of one's humanity can be awakened and developed.
Middle and Roman Stoics taught that sex is just within marriage, for unitive and procreative purposes only.[59][60] This teaching is accepted by the Catholic Church to this day.[61]
Yeah there's something about the writing style. . . . It limits the possible reactions to a missing wallet to an either/or reaction. . . Implying "the old man nature" is always a negative reaction.
Even then the invalidation.. berating yourself for having a negative emotion only makes it worse . . . And the article turns into some eternal conflict . . . Like you should be running around with a mask and cape
(Simply telling yourself "yeah, that situation sucks and you have a right to feel that way" is all you really need to do sometimes)
(Simply telling yourself "yeah, that situation sucks and you have a right to feel that way" is all you really need to do sometimes)
Yeah, you DO have a right to your feelings. I started learning about Stoic philosophy (and ways of looking at life and events) about four years ago. I very much prefer it over being imprisoned by Wierwille's private interpretations of Christianity and the bible as we learning in the pflap class.
I am much more able to stay calm and work through challenges I face. Wierwille learned the language of Christianity enough to sell his version. Yet, it seems even though he could talk the talk, much of the darkness in his personal practices and the subculture he built might be directly traceable to not learning stoic lessons on Ego. For him, it perhaps was his primary adversary.
. . . I think wierwille’s idea of the renewed mind is more along the lines of mind control.
I should say I understand that emotions come from thoughts. We don't react to events, we react to our own thoughts about an event. (I'll have to find my source on that).
The article says there's a competition between the old man and the new man. Replacing each thought with another thought . . . only someone is feeding you those thoughts.
"I'm happy for green lights even though I lost my wallet" - so far seems impractical because green lights to not feed a family.
This I’ve never heard. Is it a non sequitor? Just hanging out in the text like… a duck?
What do you think it means?
Did you read the article? Someone lost their wallet. They need groceries. The solution is to keep your happiness about green lights and parking spots, put on the new man and don't fulfil the lusts of the flesh.
Wait . . . so the article is establish that our thoughts come from two sources, old man and new man.
Do our thoughts come from one source or multiple sources?
I should say I understand that emotions come from thoughts. We don't react to events, we react to our own thoughts about an event. (I'll have to find my source on that).
That’s how I understand it, too. Thousands of sources explaining this in various ways. Citation unnecessary for me.
7 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:
The article says there's a competition between the old man and the new man. Replacing each thought with another thought . . . only someone is feeding you those thoughts.
Someone?
8 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:
"I'm happy for green lights even though I lost my wallet" - so far seems impractical because green lights to not feed a family.
I get it now. So silly.
But aren’t green lights a result of one’s beleeeving? So, one should REALLY be happy for their beleeeving, not the green light.
First two set of verses are Ephesians 4:17-24 and Romans 13:12,14
What do these have to do with losing my wallet? - so what if you think "crap I forgot my wallet - now I'm behind schedule"? . . . .How is that the works of darkness?
Edited by Bolshevik spelling according to the old man
Did you read the article? Someone lost their wallet. They need groceries. The solution is to keep your happiness about green lights and parking spots, put on the new man and don't fulfil the lusts of the flesh.
Wait . . . so the article is establish that our thoughts come from two sources, old man and new man.
Do our thoughts come from one source or multiple sources?
Sorry. I haven’t read it yet. It’s daunting. I know it will trigger.
And the author will be out of reach, literally, actually. So, I’ll have no recourse and won’t be able to reprove and correct in the way it might be done in the book of Numbers
These markers are so consistent across the board, no matter where you live, your age or level of involvement — green lights and parking spaces.
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Bolshevik
here's an article about where thoughts come from https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/10/21/where-do-our-thoughts-come-from/?sh=45bf3f8c2ee2
Bolshevik
The first sentence of the article: "Don't you love it when you are driving to the store and all the traffic lights are green?" I probably wouldn't . . . I'd notice if every light was red . . . gr
Bolshevik
Dammit Oldskool
Bolshevik
The forth to last paragraph tells me to go get some heavy machinery and knock the store down, you know, to demonstrate my power.
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Bolshevik
Page 5 says make no provision for the flesh, and the top of page 6 says to starve my old man.
I'm guessing there's no groceries that week.
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Bolshevik
The top left part of Page 5 says if you forgot your wallet, darkness may come, but don't wear pajamas, cause you gotta go to work?
Well . . . if it's dark out it's time for bed and you gotta rest . . . but you need money for groceries, so you gotta go to work and you need rest.
And pushing an old man off of you is more important than getting you pajamas off, so there's that.
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Bolshevik
It circles back to the wallet, but then back to changing your clothes. Maybe you left your wallet in your other jeans?
The writer must wear tight clothing cause they're making a big deal out of it.
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Bolshevik
Ok . . . . I guess we're to ignore the wallet cause that is love . . . love that God wants, dammit.
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Bolshevik
I mean I might make a phone call, tell the clerk I'll be right back . . . but the writer goes right into lust.
It's groceries . . . the heck do they eat?
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Bolshevik
Now I'm supposed to operate nine manifestations and engage in the competition . . . honestly I don't think the store will run out of food . . . but okay it says to get into farming now. I guess the manual labor will help me remember better next time.
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Bolshevik
OH! . . . it says you can phone a friend . . . but not to bring the money . . . to tell you Bible versus. Maybe that's currency at some stores?
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Bolshevik
Then I'm gonna be a Transformer, use force, and take captives . . . . don't really think that's necessary
Little different than stoicism but whatever.
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T-Bone
The main difference that I see is that in stoicism one goes through hardships alone, relying on one’s own willpower. A follower of Christianity is never alone, per the numerous passages that indicate God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit...for example:
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,
Romans 8
~ ~ ~ ~
In my opinion, the Way Mag article you posted seems to emphasize one’s own willpower and knowledge of the Bible – in that regard I think it closely resembles stoicism where one represses or ignores feelings and endures pain. The article keeps bringing the solution back to a knowledge of the Bible...problem with that is our knowledge could be faulty, or we forget or deliberately disregard a passage that might be most applicable to our situation.
I see problems in that. The propensity to be dogmatic about the Bible – especially in a group like TWI that leans heavily toward fundamentalism – there is the danger of repressing or ignoring the influence of the Holy Spirit – which at times can be subtle – a gut feeling – an intuition.
In TWI I was repeatedly reminded to ignore feelings and repress emotions. wierwille’s twisted interpretation and misapplication of Scripture had more authority than one’s own conscience. It didn’t seem to faze wierwille one bit to show a porn video to our family corps - under the pretext of prepping us to counsel others. Setting aside the inappropriateness in this man-of-god-teacher/students scenario he callously ignored the offended and freaked out feelings that were unmistakable in most of us – dismissing it with saying stuff like “I’ve so renewed my mind that this stuff doesn’t bother me.” I think wierwille’s idea of the renewed mind is more along the lines of mind control.
~ ~ ~ ~
I think there are some similarities between Christianity and Stoicism as far as philosophical concepts go:
The apostle Paul met with Stoics during his stay in Athens, reported in Acts 17:16–18. In his letters, Paul reflected heavily from his knowledge of Stoic philosophy, using Stoic terms and metaphors to assist his new Gentile converts in their understanding of Christianity.[54] This is seen, for example, in 1 Corinthians 11, in which Paul enjoins the ordinance of headcovering with a cloth veil by appealing to nature in a reductio ad absurdum: "if there is something especially suitable about a woman’s head being covered, then she should be glad to wear a headcovering in addition to the long hair."[55] Stoic influence can also be seen in the works of St. Ambrose, Marcus Minucius Felix, and Tertullian.[56]
The Fathers of the Church regarded Stoicism as a "pagan philosophy";[57][58] nonetheless, early Christian writers employed some of the central philosophical concepts of Stoicism. Examples include the terms "logos", "virtue", "Spirit", and "conscience".[29] But the parallels go well beyond the sharing and borrowing of terminology. Both Stoicism and Christianity assert an inner freedom in the face of the external world, a belief in human kinship with Nature or God, a sense of the innate depravity—or "persistent evil"—of humankind,[29] and the futility and temporary nature of worldly possessions and attachments. Both encourage Ascesis with respect to the passions and inferior emotions, such as lust, and envy, so that the higher possibilities of one's humanity can be awakened and developed.
Stoic writings such as Meditations by Marcus Aurelius have been highly regarded by many Christians throughout the centuries. The Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox Church accept the Stoic ideal of dispassion to this day.
Middle and Roman Stoics taught that sex is just within marriage, for unitive and procreative purposes only.[59][60] This teaching is accepted by the Catholic Church to this day.[61]
Saint Ambrose of Milan was known for applying Stoic philosophy to his theology.
From: Stoicism - Wikipedia
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Bolshevik
Yeah there's something about the writing style. . . . It limits the possible reactions to a missing wallet to an either/or reaction. . . Implying "the old man nature" is always a negative reaction.
Even then the invalidation.. berating yourself for having a negative emotion only makes it worse . . . And the article turns into some eternal conflict . . . Like you should be running around with a mask and cape
(Simply telling yourself "yeah, that situation sucks and you have a right to feel that way" is all you really need to do sometimes)
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Rocky
The Obstacle is the Way For some of us The Way has been the Obstacle ;)
Ego is the Enemy
Stillness is the Key
Yeah, you DO have a right to your feelings. I started learning about Stoic philosophy (and ways of looking at life and events) about four years ago. I very much prefer it over being imprisoned by Wierwille's private interpretations of Christianity and the bible as we learning in the pflap class.
I am much more able to stay calm and work through challenges I face. Wierwille learned the language of Christianity enough to sell his version. Yet, it seems even though he could talk the talk, much of the darkness in his personal practices and the subculture he built might be directly traceable to not learning stoic lessons on Ego. For him, it perhaps was his primary adversary.
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Rocky
Okay, I see the Way Mag at the links. However, there's NFW I'm going to read much of it.
Bolshevik, does it (the linked Way Mag) mention stoic philosophy at all?
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Bolshevik
It does not.
The first paragraph presents a scenario where on might get upset. The article seems to meander and never give a real solution.
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Rocky
I'm SHOCKED!
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Bolshevik
Maybe.
I was neither reasoned nor drawn into that sort of thinking.
Teaching meant a thud, if you know what I mean.
If someone lost their wallet that would be a lack of believing.
The article talks about "keeping your happiness from the green light"
Isn't that weird? And why?
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Nathan_Jr
I’m very familiar with this bullshonta.
This I’ve never heard. Is it a non sequitor? Just hanging out in the text like… a duck?
What do you think it means?
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Bolshevik
I should say I understand that emotions come from thoughts. We don't react to events, we react to our own thoughts about an event. (I'll have to find my source on that).
The article says there's a competition between the old man and the new man. Replacing each thought with another thought . . . only someone is feeding you those thoughts.
"I'm happy for green lights even though I lost my wallet" - so far seems impractical because green lights to not feed a family.
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Bolshevik
Did you read the article? Someone lost their wallet. They need groceries. The solution is to keep your happiness about green lights and parking spots, put on the new man and don't fulfil the lusts of the flesh.
Wait . . . so the article is establish that our thoughts come from two sources, old man and new man.
Do our thoughts come from one source or multiple sources?
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Bolshevik
here's an article about where thoughts come from
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/10/21/where-do-our-thoughts-come-from/?sh=45bf3f8c2ee2
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Nathan_Jr
That’s how I understand it, too. Thousands of sources explaining this in various ways. Citation unnecessary for me.
Someone?
I get it now. So silly.
But aren’t green lights a result of one’s beleeeving? So, one should REALLY be happy for their beleeeving, not the green light.
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Bolshevik
First two set of verses are Ephesians 4:17-24 and Romans 13:12,14
What do these have to do with losing my wallet? - so what if you think "crap I forgot my wallet - now I'm behind schedule"? . . . .How is that the works of darkness?
Edited by Bolshevikspelling according to the old man
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Nathan_Jr
Sorry. I haven’t read it yet. It’s daunting. I know it will trigger.
And the author will be out of reach, literally, actually. So, I’ll have no recourse and won’t be able to reprove and correct in the way it might be done in the book of Numbers
These markers are so consistent across the board, no matter where you live, your age or level of involvement — green lights and parking spaces.
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Bolshevik
The first sentence of the article: "Don't you love it when you are driving to the store and all the traffic lights are green?"
I probably wouldn't . . . I'd notice if every light was red . . . green lights aren't like enjoying a sunset
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