VPW's words are completely emotional. There's no logic. It's a guilt trip.
"I'll teach you if you teach others"
Oh boo hoo.
I was constantly told to serve because I was thankful. . . . For what? I'd ask. . . . . I was told I would understand when I'm older. I was given the turd.
I stayed too long out of a sense of religious duty. I wasted many years of my life trying to support change from within. I think all the RNR brethren feel the same. They finally got a collective letter together and appeared on a video so they could be shunned by TWI.
Suckas don’t want no help suckas don’t get no help. Go cry come home somewhere else TWI losers.
The salt covenant thing was a big trip in being guilted out. Salt covenant when you are graduated into the WC; again when you get Rev'd (OldSkool, correct me if I'm wrong here). That was after months or years of being taught how unbreakable the salt covenant was. So how much does that play into fulfilling some pseudo-religious duty?
The salt covenant thing was a big trip in being guilted out. Salt covenant when you are graduated into the WC; again when you get Rev'd (OldSkool, correct me if I'm wrong here). That was after months or years of being taught how unbreakable the salt covenant was. So how much does that play into fulfilling some pseudo-religious duty?
I stayed too long out of a sense of religious duty. I wasted many years of my life trying to support change from within. I think all the RNR brethren feel the same. They finally got a collective letter together and appeared on a video so they could be shunned by TWI.
Suckas don’t want no help suckas don’t get no help. Go cry come home somewhere else TWI losers.
3 hours ago, Twinky said:
The salt covenant thing was a big trip in being guilted out. Salt covenant when you are graduated into the WC; again when you get Rev'd (OldSkool, correct me if I'm wrong here). That was after months or years of being taught how unbreakable the salt covenant was. So how much does that play into fulfilling some pseudo-religious duty?
Wow – yeah, the salt covenant thing! Forgot about that…there’s nothing like a good guilt-trip to boost morale – NOT! But it is a powerful motivator – and in a religious context it can be a hard driving force – cuz you don’t want to let God down, do you?
I was on the crew that looked after the corps tents during the Rock and corps week. There was one of those Noah’s flood type rainstorms that just happened suddenly – during a meeting. They had the tent rental company support team rush in there to cut a big opening in the whale-size water pocket in “roof” of tent. LCM yells from the stage don’t anyone leave the tent – I understood that to mean it was an order from God. I figured that countermanded my standing orders to go close the corps tents in the event of rain. I figured wrong according to my supervisor. I got yelled at afterwards – how I let God down. Cried my eyeballs out. I felt light $hit.
Guilt-tripping someone can happen in any relationship – families, friends, work…but I think when you tie God into the mix – it ups the ante…maybe it’s the lack of feedback from an invisible God that I had to settle for some kind of response from a superior to know if I did good…I was pretty much a pushover in TWI – my self-confidence got whittled away…didn’t believe I was spiritually mature enough or had a good connection with God to think for myself .
~ ~ ~ ~
Some comments from experts on guilt-trips that you might find interesting:
What Is a Guilt Trip?
A guilt trip involves causing another person to feel guilt or a sense of responsibility to change their behavior or take a specific action. Because guilt can be such a powerful motivator of human behavior, people can wield it as a tool to change how others think, feel, and behave…
Signs:
Making comments suggesting that you have not done as much work as they have done
Bringing up mistakes that you have made in the past
Reminding you of favors they have performed for you in the past
Acting as if they are angry but then denying that there is a problem
Refusing to speak to you or giving you the silent treatment
Making it clear through their body language, tone of voice, and facial expressions that they disapprove of what you were doing
Suggesting that you “owe” them
Engaging in passive-aggressive behavior
Making sarcastic comments about your efforts or progress
It is important to note that this type of indirect communication can occur in any interpersonal relationship. Still, it is more likely to take place in relationships that are marked by close emotional connections.
It can show up in romantic relationships, but guilt trips may also be utilized in family relationships, parental relationships, and even work relationships…
Impact of Guilt Trips
Invoking feelings of guilt to change someone’s behavior can have a wide variety of effects. Whether guilt is wielded intentionally or not, it prevents healthy communication and connections with others. Some of the most immediate effects of this form of covert psychological manipulation include:
Damage to Relationships
Research suggests that guilt trips can take a toll on close relationships. One study found that people hurt by their partner's criticism were more likely to use those hurt feelings to make their partner feel guilty and offer reassurances.
However, the study also found that the partner who had been guilt-tripped into offering assurances was more likely to feel significantly worse about the relationship.
In other words, inducing feelings of guilt may work to get your partner to do what you want—but it comes at a cost. It can impair trust and cause the other person to feel that they are being manipulated…
Resentment
One of the reasons why guilt trips can poison relationships is because they can lead to lasting feelings of resentment.
Poor Well-being
Feelings of excessive guilt are associated with several mental health conditions, including anxiety, depression, and obsessive-compulsive disorder.4 Being subjected to guilt trips may contribute to the development or worsening of such conditions.
Experiencing guilt can also lead to many immediate and unpleasant emotions and symptoms such as anxiety, sadness, regret, worry, muscle tension, and insomnia.
This type of covert manipulation may also sometimes contribute to the development of a guilt complex, which is a persistent belief that you have done (or will do) something wrong.
Over time, guilt can lead to feelings of shame. Shame can affect your self-image, which can then contribute to social withdrawal and isolation…
How to Cope
There are a number of tactics that can be helpful when dealing with a guilt trip. Some steps you can take include:
Acknowledge the request. Let them know that you understand that it is important to them. Responding with empathy and showing that you see their needs may help them feel that they are not simply being ignored. Validating their emotions may help lessen the intensity of those feelings.
Share your feelings. Explain that you also see how they are trying to make you feel guilty so that you'll do what they want. Then tell them how that type of manipulation makes you feel. Suggest that interacting in that way will lead to resentment and that more direct communication forms would be more effective.
Set boundaries. Boundaries help set limits on what you will and will not accept. Even if you do end up helping them with their request, make sure you clearly articulate your limits and explain the consequences of crossing those boundaries. Then be sure that you enforce those limits if they are crossed.
Other things that you can use include protecting your self-esteem and distancing yourself if needed. You're more likely to fall for a guilt trip if you already feel poorly about yourself, so find strategies to build up your sense of self-worth.
If the other person keeps trying to manipulate you with feelings of guilt, reduce your communication with them or even consider ending the relationship.
Why is guilt a virtuous feeling in our culture? And if you don’t feel it, are you a bad parent? My husband might feel confusion, anger, and worry, but not guilt. Perhaps this has to do with biology. When you look at the moral development of men versus women, you see a lot of differences, according to the Kohlberg’s/Gilligan studies and debate:
Justice-based morality is the type of thinking more likely found in men. This form of morality is the kind embraced by a person who views the world as composed of autonomous individuals interacting with one another. Their highest form of morality means avoiding inequality; these people are usually more interested in protecting individuality.
Care-based morality is the kind of thinking more likely found in women. For these individuals, the emphasis is on interconnected relationships and universality. Their highest form of morality focuses on the avoidance of violence. People with this type of thinking are usually interested in helping others or doing the least harm.
The most common forms of guilt are related to situations in which individuals cause harm to others. It is normal that we feel empathy for those people we may have harmed, which tends to turn into feelings of guilt when we recognize that we were responsible for their suffering.
The greater presence of this component among women, above all those aged between 40 and 50, explains the marked differences in the intensity of habitual guilt in this age group.
Think of it in evolutionary terms. There are differences in brain development between men and women. Man, throughout evolution, was prized for being strong and able to convince a woman of childbearing years that he was superior to all the other males. This was so he could gain her favor, and therefore spread his genetic code to the next generation.
Individuality and strength in males were often prized, while women’s social skills were rewarded. This is because women had to spend nearly one year of their lives pregnant and another year nursing a child. This placed the female in a very vulnerable position.
To ensure their survival and not get robbed of the investment they made in their offspring, women had to rely on social relationships and the protection of those around them. They formed very tight-knit bonds with members of their communities, whether it be the father of their child or community elders. Therefore, for women, choosing to be independent was not as prized as developing very strong and intense social bonds, which was, in turn, rewarded through their dopamine systems.
This is what you see today in teenage girls. Social relationships are everything; even a new text from a friend lights them up with pleasure.
How does this relate to guilt? Women feel more guilt (and, specifically, mommy guilt!) than men because they are always worried about how their choices impact their social relationships. They know they need to work and practice self-care, but they worry about the consequences on their child and the diversion of their attention. They are always looking to make decisions with the least negative consequences.
Men know they need to work, and they think about the justice of that: “I can provide for my child and give them a better life.” Children are with their mom or babysitter, so for many men, no guilt is necessary, as they know they are giving their child a good life.
However, there is a purpose for mommy guilt. Guilt is a major force to make people pay attention to other people. So, Mom might feel guilt but also dish it out to others. Guilt may make Dad clean the house, get the kids to do chores, or have the older kids home for Sunday dinner. All of that is for the greater good to keep the family together.
As for the “mommy guilt,” moms should all stop with the “shoulds.” “I should do more for my kids. I should spend more time with them. I should play more games with them. I should have more time to go to the gym.” I should, I should, I should. It’s a never-ending barrage, and you can never win.
Maybe we moms should take a lesson from the dads and think about the benefits of choosing to work. Working means that you can provide a good home for your kids and be a role model. At the end of the day, just make sure the time you can spend with your kids counts and forget about all the rest.
Bob snapped back “You know you can go W.O.W. again – with your experience you might even be a W.O.W. coordinator this time.”
Further down the road we decided to go in the 11th way corps program. But my wife got pregnant and so we put that off for a few years – finally going into the 11th Family Corps. FYI - we had to leave our cat with her dad - cats are not considered corps material.
Are you glad you went in the Corps overall? Looking back, I was glad that I went out WOW the second time, but its not quote so with the corps experience-- should have waited. The WOW years were alright; only one year at a time and you can walk away from that mostly free and clear if you want; the Corps was entirely different. Talk about a sense of religious duty! I suppose its like that with most all religious groups when one commits to advancing in their corporate world of theirs, its all consuming.
Are you glad you went in the Corps overall? Looking back, I was glad that I went out WOW the second time, but its not quote so with the corps experience-- should have waited. The WOW years were alright; only one year at a time and you can walk away from that mostly free and clear if you want; the Corps was entirely different. Talk about a sense of religious duty! I suppose its like that with most all religious groups when one commits to advancing in their corporate world of theirs, its all consuming.
Im glad I did go into the way corps. There are better ways to gain the experiences I gained, but I will say that I couldnt have gotten the same experienes the same way and that goes for good and bad experiences. Overall I could have done without the way international and could have made better choices in what I chose for a Church, but thats water under the bridge now. I did have a lot of really good experiences and had a lot of really cool relationships with people. Sadly, because of the way being a cult, all of those relationships turned out to be highly conditional on whether or not I am part of the way.
Kinda curious how others feel about this one. Good question oldiesman.
Are you glad you went in the Corps overall? Looking back, I was glad that I went out WOW the second time, but its not quote so with the corps experience-- should have waited. The WOW years were alright; only one year at a time and you can walk away from that mostly free and clear if you want; the Corps was entirely different. Talk about a sense of religious duty! I suppose its like that with most all religious groups when one commits to advancing in their corporate world of theirs, its all consuming.
I have a dual answer. Yes and no. Yes doing farm chores as a young man had benefit. Yes other things benefitted me as well. Yes God looked after me during that time, and prepared for me a Psalm 23 table.
But either program did NOTHING for maturing me AS A CHRISTIAN.
In both cases I was disciplining to BS. The warped interpretation of the Bible I built into my habits made it WORSE when things played out as they usually do in cults with compliance obedience free will and shunning those who leave. I WAS a CORPS NAZI. We all were as much as I want to reshape history about how loving I was and really and exception. I was not an exception.
As a WOW I was a bigger @$$hole. Confronting brothers and sisters in Christ about perceived accuracy of the Word, hounding people into taking classes, taking part in “pushes” for classes signing up the near homeless.
So overall it would have been better if I had heeded my pastors warning and not taken PFAL. It led me down a multiple decade rabbit hole that it has not been easy to extract myself from.
With that said, God is still God and produces amazing things from the most dire circumstances if you let Him and trust Him.
Im glad I did go into the way corps. There are better ways to gain the experiences I gained, but I will say that I couldnt have gotten the same experienes the same way and that goes for good and bad experiences. Overall I could have done without the way international and could have made better choices in what I chose for a Church, but thats water under the bridge now. I did have a lot of really good experiences and had a lot of really cool relationships with people. Sadly, because of the way being a cult, all of those relationships turned out to be highly conditional on whether or not I am part of the way.
Kinda curious how others feel about this one. Good question oldiesman.
Yes thx, me too. Also, since getting involved once again with the RC church, I have not heard once from anyone that I would turn into a greasepot if I don't go to church anymore. No compulsion at all... which maybe is a bad thing sometimes?
I have a dual answer. Yes and no. Yes doing farm chores as a young man had benefit. Yes other things benefitted me as well. Yes God looked after me during that time, and prepared for me a Psalm 23 table.
But either program did NOTHING for maturing me AS A CHRISTIAN.
In both cases I was disciplining to BS. The warped interpretation of the Bible I built into my habits made it WORSE when things played out as they usually do in cults with compliance obedience free will and shunning those who leave. I WAS a CORPS NAZI. We all were as much as I want to reshape history about how loving I was and really and exception. I was not an exception.
As a WOW I was a bigger @$$hole. Confronting brothers and sisters in Christ about perceived accuracy of the Word, hounding people into taking classes, taking part in “pushes” for classes signing up the near homeless.
So overall it would have been better if I had heeded my pastors warning and not taken PFAL. It led me down a multiple decade rabbit hole that it has not been easy to extract myself from.
With that said, God is still God and produces amazing things from the most dire circumstances if you let Him and trust Him.
Yes, thx. A little less programming from TWI and a lot more love and self-appraisal/introspection would have been beneficial.
You can get benefit from almost any program if you have the will to do it. I mean, there are people in prison who get college degrees, but that's certainly not the best way to go about it. As to what it was about, it was like a microcosm of the corpse at the state level. One large difference was that we were not allowed to have outside sponsorship. We had to self-sponsor by working at full time, secular jobs. The balance of our day was spent living communally and providing support for the limb machinations.
edit: That may sound something like a Way Home but it was entirely different.
Are you glad you went in the Corps overall? Looking back, I was glad that I went out WOW the second time, but its not quote so with the corps experience-- should have waited. The WOW years were alright; only one year at a time and you can walk away from that mostly free and clear if you want; the Corps was entirely different. Talk about a sense of religious duty! I suppose its like that with most all religious groups when one commits to advancing in their corporate world of theirs, its all consuming.
Great question, Oldiesman!
My short answer is yes.
My longer answer is also yes – while elaborating on a few caveats and maybe deconstruct why I say what I say on Grease Spot – I’ll try to keep it brief – but you know how that goes with me.
Your question made me recall one of those deep philosophical conversations we all have at times – that usually seem unremarkable in the moment…1967…after high school…waiting for the city bus in Middle Village…Steve and I were talking about our favorite bands and the exciting, creative, and adventurous life the musicians must have. Steve says something like “Do you ever wish you were Jack Bruce?” I don’t recall my exact words, but I do remember I shot back pretty quick something along the lines of – “no - that would be sad if I wasn’t into being me”. We had a good laugh over that…It’s near the end of 2022 and I still feel the same way…some things never change.
I love movies that get into time-travel – one of my newer favorites is Tenet
in my opinion probably one of the most thought-provoking movies in that genre
Time-travel movies are such a tease – what if you get a chance at a do-over? But life doesn’t work that way.
Why didn’t God resolve the big screw-up of humankind right after it happened in the Garden of Eden?
Why would God create a world where people have the freedom to choose?
I don’t have any answers – but I’m okay with the way things turned out so far.
~ ~ ~ ~
There’s more to our lives than the bits and pieces we all share on Grease Spot Café. We may get a sense of a certain aspect of each Grease Spotter from certain vignettes – but it’s still not the whole picture. As detailed, critical, and technical as some of my posts tend to be – one might gather that all I do in my spare time is rehash TWI-doctrine and my experiences with them…but I could easily bore you to death with all my hobbies, studies, repair projects, honey-dos, vacations, how involved we are in our kids’ lives, and maintaining the network of friends and co-workers.
Stuff I share here - the life-lessons, wonderful relationships, intellectual pursuits, creative adventures, and the development of cognitive skills often have some relevance to my involvement with The Way International. I try to live by the 2 great priorities ofMatthew 22: 34 – 40- love God and others- I guess that’s my religious duty now.
Speaking of guilt-trips, there’s always going to be some folks who seem like all they want to do is make me feel bad for sharing what I do. Oh well. But that’s only a 12-year segment out of 69 years.
A lot of folks here have expressed some great analyses of TWI'sdoctrine and practices as well as some great therapeutic strategies. OutandAbout mentioned she made a pie chart of her life thus far, which showed the proportion of TWI involvement as it related to the entire scope of her life. I loved that idea – because as time goes by the TWIsection gets smaller and smaller. That’s a great way to look at it…Out of habit I usually reflect on my life as before, during and after TWI – as if it was the most significant watershed moment of my entire life – like everything about me revolves around that… but with more temporal distancing from TWIa pie chart would show its diminishing part-to-whole relationship with my entire life…there’s a distinct advantage to this overview – seeing the big picture tends to put everything in proper perspective - so it's all no longer out of proportion. See OutandAbout’s pie chart thread
Grease Spot Café represents just a smidgeon of my life…it’s one of the many places where I try to pass on some wisdom, warnings, and insight to others. Like what I do as a parent. We nurture our kids – help them develop strengths and skills – give them more and more opportunities to make choices – and overall do our best to prep them for a life independent of us.
Speaking of parenting – check out this clip - Keanu Reeves brilliant parent speech in Parenthood
I guess one of the issues with recovery is coming to terms with your own story and history. Some of the great links provided by you all talk about overcoming a sense of loss and waste in life.
Personally I just have become more comfortable with the duplicitous nature of life. How was the Corps? Like Dickens describes “it was the best of times, it was the worst of times ….”
I mean how can one study “the names of God” and not perceive at all a sliding manifestation of the Creator?
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Bolshevik
VPW's words are completely emotional. There's no logic. It's a guilt trip.
"I'll teach you if you teach others"
Oh boo hoo.
I was constantly told to serve because I was thankful. . . . For what? I'd ask. . . . . I was told I would understand when I'm older. I was given the turd.
There's no basis to "The Ministry" whatsever.
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chockfull
I stayed too long out of a sense of religious duty. I wasted many years of my life trying to support change from within. I think all the RNR brethren feel the same. They finally got a collective letter together and appeared on a video so they could be shunned by TWI.
Suckas don’t want no help suckas don’t get no help. Go cry come home somewhere else TWI losers.
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Twinky
The salt covenant thing was a big trip in being guilted out. Salt covenant when you are graduated into the WC; again when you get Rev'd (OldSkool, correct me if I'm wrong here). That was after months or years of being taught how unbreakable the salt covenant was. So how much does that play into fulfilling some pseudo-religious duty?
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OldSkool
Yes ma'am...correctamundo!
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T-Bone
Wow – yeah, the salt covenant thing! Forgot about that…there’s nothing like a good guilt-trip to boost morale – NOT! But it is a powerful motivator – and in a religious context it can be a hard driving force – cuz you don’t want to let God down, do you?
I was on the crew that looked after the corps tents during the Rock and corps week. There was one of those Noah’s flood type rainstorms that just happened suddenly – during a meeting. They had the tent rental company support team rush in there to cut a big opening in the whale-size water pocket in “roof” of tent. LCM yells from the stage don’t anyone leave the tent – I understood that to mean it was an order from God. I figured that countermanded my standing orders to go close the corps tents in the event of rain. I figured wrong according to my supervisor. I got yelled at afterwards – how I let God down. Cried my eyeballs out. I felt light $hit.
Guilt-tripping someone can happen in any relationship – families, friends, work…but I think when you tie God into the mix – it ups the ante…maybe it’s the lack of feedback from an invisible God that I had to settle for some kind of response from a superior to know if I did good…I was pretty much a pushover in TWI – my self-confidence got whittled away…didn’t believe I was spiritually mature enough or had a good connection with God to think for myself .
~ ~ ~ ~
Some comments from experts on guilt-trips that you might find interesting:
What Is a Guilt Trip?
A guilt trip involves causing another person to feel guilt or a sense of responsibility to change their behavior or take a specific action. Because guilt can be such a powerful motivator of human behavior, people can wield it as a tool to change how others think, feel, and behave…
Signs:
Making comments suggesting that you have not done as much work as they have done
Bringing up mistakes that you have made in the past
Reminding you of favors they have performed for you in the past
Acting as if they are angry but then denying that there is a problem
Refusing to speak to you or giving you the silent treatment
Making it clear through their body language, tone of voice, and facial expressions that they disapprove of what you were doing
Suggesting that you “owe” them
Engaging in passive-aggressive behavior
Making sarcastic comments about your efforts or progress
It is important to note that this type of indirect communication can occur in any interpersonal relationship. Still, it is more likely to take place in relationships that are marked by close emotional connections.
It can show up in romantic relationships, but guilt trips may also be utilized in family relationships, parental relationships, and even work relationships…
Impact of Guilt Trips
Invoking feelings of guilt to change someone’s behavior can have a wide variety of effects. Whether guilt is wielded intentionally or not, it prevents healthy communication and connections with others. Some of the most immediate effects of this form of covert psychological manipulation include:
Damage to Relationships
Research suggests that guilt trips can take a toll on close relationships. One study found that people hurt by their partner's criticism were more likely to use those hurt feelings to make their partner feel guilty and offer reassurances.
However, the study also found that the partner who had been guilt-tripped into offering assurances was more likely to feel significantly worse about the relationship.
In other words, inducing feelings of guilt may work to get your partner to do what you want—but it comes at a cost. It can impair trust and cause the other person to feel that they are being manipulated…
Resentment
One of the reasons why guilt trips can poison relationships is because they can lead to lasting feelings of resentment.
Poor Well-being
Feelings of excessive guilt are associated with several mental health conditions, including anxiety, depression, and obsessive-compulsive disorder.4 Being subjected to guilt trips may contribute to the development or worsening of such conditions.
Experiencing guilt can also lead to many immediate and unpleasant emotions and symptoms such as anxiety, sadness, regret, worry, muscle tension, and insomnia.
This type of covert manipulation may also sometimes contribute to the development of a guilt complex, which is a persistent belief that you have done (or will do) something wrong.
Over time, guilt can lead to feelings of shame. Shame can affect your self-image, which can then contribute to social withdrawal and isolation…
How to Cope
There are a number of tactics that can be helpful when dealing with a guilt trip. Some steps you can take include:
Acknowledge the request. Let them know that you understand that it is important to them. Responding with empathy and showing that you see their needs may help them feel that they are not simply being ignored. Validating their emotions may help lessen the intensity of those feelings.
Share your feelings. Explain that you also see how they are trying to make you feel guilty so that you'll do what they want. Then tell them how that type of manipulation makes you feel. Suggest that interacting in that way will lead to resentment and that more direct communication forms would be more effective.
Set boundaries. Boundaries help set limits on what you will and will not accept. Even if you do end up helping them with their request, make sure you clearly articulate your limits and explain the consequences of crossing those boundaries. Then be sure that you enforce those limits if they are crossed.
Other things that you can use include protecting your self-esteem and distancing yourself if needed. You're more likely to fall for a guilt trip if you already feel poorly about yourself, so find strategies to build up your sense of self-worth.
If the other person keeps trying to manipulate you with feelings of guilt, reduce your communication with them or even consider ending the relationship.
From: What Is a Guilt Trip? (verywellmind.com)
~ ~ ~ ~
Why is guilt a virtuous feeling in our culture? And if you don’t feel it, are you a bad parent? My husband might feel confusion, anger, and worry, but not guilt. Perhaps this has to do with biology. When you look at the moral development of men versus women, you see a lot of differences, according to the Kohlberg’s/Gilligan studies and debate:
Justice-based morality is the type of thinking more likely found in men. This form of morality is the kind embraced by a person who views the world as composed of autonomous individuals interacting with one another. Their highest form of morality means avoiding inequality; these people are usually more interested in protecting individuality.
Care-based morality is the kind of thinking more likely found in women. For these individuals, the emphasis is on interconnected relationships and universality. Their highest form of morality focuses on the avoidance of violence. People with this type of thinking are usually interested in helping others or doing the least harm.
The most common forms of guilt are related to situations in which individuals cause harm to others. It is normal that we feel empathy for those people we may have harmed, which tends to turn into feelings of guilt when we recognize that we were responsible for their suffering.
The greater presence of this component among women, above all those aged between 40 and 50, explains the marked differences in the intensity of habitual guilt in this age group.
Think of it in evolutionary terms. There are differences in brain development between men and women. Man, throughout evolution, was prized for being strong and able to convince a woman of childbearing years that he was superior to all the other males. This was so he could gain her favor, and therefore spread his genetic code to the next generation.
Individuality and strength in males were often prized, while women’s social skills were rewarded. This is because women had to spend nearly one year of their lives pregnant and another year nursing a child. This placed the female in a very vulnerable position.
To ensure their survival and not get robbed of the investment they made in their offspring, women had to rely on social relationships and the protection of those around them. They formed very tight-knit bonds with members of their communities, whether it be the father of their child or community elders. Therefore, for women, choosing to be independent was not as prized as developing very strong and intense social bonds, which was, in turn, rewarded through their dopamine systems.
This is what you see today in teenage girls. Social relationships are everything; even a new text from a friend lights them up with pleasure.
How does this relate to guilt? Women feel more guilt (and, specifically, mommy guilt!) than men because they are always worried about how their choices impact their social relationships. They know they need to work and practice self-care, but they worry about the consequences on their child and the diversion of their attention. They are always looking to make decisions with the least negative consequences.
Men know they need to work, and they think about the justice of that: “I can provide for my child and give them a better life.” Children are with their mom or babysitter, so for many men, no guilt is necessary, as they know they are giving their child a good life.
However, there is a purpose for mommy guilt. Guilt is a major force to make people pay attention to other people. So, Mom might feel guilt but also dish it out to others. Guilt may make Dad clean the house, get the kids to do chores, or have the older kids home for Sunday dinner. All of that is for the greater good to keep the family together.
As for the “mommy guilt,” moms should all stop with the “shoulds.” “I should do more for my kids. I should spend more time with them. I should play more games with them. I should have more time to go to the gym.” I should, I should, I should. It’s a never-ending barrage, and you can never win.
Maybe we moms should take a lesson from the dads and think about the benefits of choosing to work. Working means that you can provide a good home for your kids and be a role model. At the end of the day, just make sure the time you can spend with your kids counts and forget about all the rest.
From The Guilt Trip | Psychology Today
Edited by T-BoneReiterate
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oldiesman
Are you glad you went in the Corps overall? Looking back, I was glad that I went out WOW the second time, but its not quote so with the corps experience-- should have waited. The WOW years were alright; only one year at a time and you can walk away from that mostly free and clear if you want; the Corps was entirely different. Talk about a sense of religious duty! I suppose its like that with most all religious groups when one commits to advancing in their corporate world of theirs, its all consuming.
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OldSkool
Im glad I did go into the way corps. There are better ways to gain the experiences I gained, but I will say that I couldnt have gotten the same experienes the same way and that goes for good and bad experiences. Overall I could have done without the way international and could have made better choices in what I chose for a Church, but thats water under the bridge now. I did have a lot of really good experiences and had a lot of really cool relationships with people. Sadly, because of the way being a cult, all of those relationships turned out to be highly conditional on whether or not I am part of the way.
Kinda curious how others feel about this one. Good question oldiesman.
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waysider
Yeah, I should have waited a couple years before going into FellowLaborers.
(The program was canceled 2 years after I graduated...Hahahahahahaha!)
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chockfull
I have a dual answer. Yes and no. Yes doing farm chores as a young man had benefit. Yes other things benefitted me as well. Yes God looked after me during that time, and prepared for me a Psalm 23 table.
But either program did NOTHING for maturing me AS A CHRISTIAN.
In both cases I was disciplining to BS. The warped interpretation of the Bible I built into my habits made it WORSE when things played out as they usually do in cults with compliance obedience free will and shunning those who leave. I WAS a CORPS NAZI. We all were as much as I want to reshape history about how loving I was and really and exception. I was not an exception.
As a WOW I was a bigger @$$hole. Confronting brothers and sisters in Christ about perceived accuracy of the Word, hounding people into taking classes, taking part in “pushes” for classes signing up the near homeless.
So overall it would have been better if I had heeded my pastors warning and not taken PFAL. It led me down a multiple decade rabbit hole that it has not been easy to extract myself from.
With that said, God is still God and produces amazing things from the most dire circumstances if you let Him and trust Him.
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oldiesman
Yes thx, me too. Also, since getting involved once again with the RC church, I have not heard once from anyone that I would turn into a greasepot if I don't go to church anymore. No compulsion at all... which maybe is a bad thing sometimes?
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oldiesman
Did you get some benefit from the program? I never knew much about it; was disinterested.
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oldiesman
Yes, thx. A little less programming from TWI and a lot more love and self-appraisal/introspection would have been beneficial.
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waysider
Responding to oldiesman's questions:
You can get benefit from almost any program if you have the will to do it. I mean, there are people in prison who get college degrees, but that's certainly not the best way to go about it. As to what it was about, it was like a microcosm of the corpse at the state level. One large difference was that we were not allowed to have outside sponsorship. We had to self-sponsor by working at full time, secular jobs. The balance of our day was spent living communally and providing support for the limb machinations.
edit: That may sound something like a Way Home but it was entirely different.
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T-Bone
Great question, Oldiesman!
My short answer is yes.
My longer answer is also yes – while elaborating on a few caveats and maybe deconstruct why I say what I say on Grease Spot – I’ll try to keep it brief – but you know how that goes with me.
Your question made me recall one of those deep philosophical conversations we all have at times – that usually seem unremarkable in the moment…1967…after high school…waiting for the city bus in Middle Village…Steve and I were talking about our favorite bands and the exciting, creative, and adventurous life the musicians must have. Steve says something like “Do you ever wish you were Jack Bruce?” I don’t recall my exact words, but I do remember I shot back pretty quick something along the lines of – “no - that would be sad if I wasn’t into being me”. We had a good laugh over that…It’s near the end of 2022 and I still feel the same way…some things never change.
I love movies that get into time-travel – one of my newer favorites is Tenet
in my opinion probably one of the most thought-provoking movies in that genre
Time-travel movies are such a tease – what if you get a chance at a do-over? But life doesn’t work that way.
Why didn’t God resolve the big screw-up of humankind right after it happened in the Garden of Eden?
Why would God create a world where people have the freedom to choose?
I don’t have any answers – but I’m okay with the way things turned out so far.
~ ~ ~ ~
There’s more to our lives than the bits and pieces we all share on Grease Spot Café. We may get a sense of a certain aspect of each Grease Spotter from certain vignettes – but it’s still not the whole picture. As detailed, critical, and technical as some of my posts tend to be – one might gather that all I do in my spare time is rehash TWI-doctrine and my experiences with them…but I could easily bore you to death with all my hobbies, studies, repair projects, honey-dos, vacations, how involved we are in our kids’ lives, and maintaining the network of friends and co-workers.
Stuff I share here - the life-lessons, wonderful relationships, intellectual pursuits, creative adventures, and the development of cognitive skills often have some relevance to my involvement with The Way International. I try to live by the 2 great priorities of Matthew 22: 34 – 40 - love God and others - I guess that’s my religious duty now.
Speaking of guilt-trips, there’s always going to be some folks who seem like all they want to do is make me feel bad for sharing what I do. Oh well. But that’s only a 12-year segment out of 69 years.
A lot of folks here have expressed some great analyses of TWI's doctrine and practices as well as some great therapeutic strategies. OutandAbout mentioned she made a pie chart of her life thus far, which showed the proportion of TWI involvement as it related to the entire scope of her life. I loved that idea – because as time goes by the TWI section gets smaller and smaller. That’s a great way to look at it…Out of habit I usually reflect on my life as before, during and after TWI – as if it was the most significant watershed moment of my entire life – like everything about me revolves around that… but with more temporal distancing from TWI a pie chart would show its diminishing part-to-whole relationship with my entire life…there’s a distinct advantage to this overview – seeing the big picture tends to put everything in proper perspective - so it's all no longer out of proportion. See OutandAbout’s pie chart thread
Grease Spot Café represents just a smidgeon of my life…it’s one of the many places where I try to pass on some wisdom, warnings, and insight to others. Like what I do as a parent. We nurture our kids – help them develop strengths and skills – give them more and more opportunities to make choices – and overall do our best to prep them for a life independent of us.
Speaking of parenting – check out this clip - Keanu Reeves brilliant parent speech in Parenthood
Edited by T-Bonerevision
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chockfull
I guess one of the issues with recovery is coming to terms with your own story and history. Some of the great links provided by you all talk about overcoming a sense of loss and waste in life.
Personally I just have become more comfortable with the duplicitous nature of life. How was the Corps? Like Dickens describes “it was the best of times, it was the worst of times ….”
I mean how can one study “the names of God” and not perceive at all a sliding manifestation of the Creator?
How did my life history go?
I made the best of choices.
I made the worst of choices.
Still got more to make.
Peace
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