I think T-Bone's post sufficiently rightly divides the sin simplification concept. I might take his treatment a step further to consider replacing SHOULD with WOULD.
Ok, again.
I will have lots of time after this week. It's a big one in my business.
I will have lots of time after this week. It's a big one in my business.
But like I said, I have lots of reading to do.
It's actually a relatively short T-Bone post. And the WordWolf post is short, also. You could easily read them while dropping a deuce or eating pistachios.
Be sure to stay tuned for upcoming editions of award winning Greatest Secrets In The World Today. .
In future episodes, we'll take a more detailed look at the cryptic, spiritual symbolism of The Poky Little Puppy and The Little Engine That Could. (Be sure to get plenty of popcorn ready.)
That is a VAST misrepresentation of what I wrote.
Was it on purpose?
I said I never considered the TWO together as a whole, like Nathan pointed out. Your Gotcha Attitude gotya back.
Go back and re-read, or stay ignorant and looking stupid to careful readers.
Pay attention this time when I mentioned the grocery store, and my attitude towards people I see there. The word "grocery" should be easy for the GSC search engine for you (and careful readers) to find it.
LATE EDIT:
The word “grocery” has not been processed by the GSC search engine. It may do that homework late at night. Until then you can what I actually said with no mis-representation on page 11 at the 60% mark, or at:
It's actually NOT a vast misrepresentation of what you wrote. Whether you understand the great commandments together or separate, synthesized or parallel, you miss the mark on understanding because you choose not to go beyond the "spiritual immaturity" of what victor taught.
Your grocery store bit is a mark miss. You just don't get it. Victor didn't get it, either. Go back and re-read that grocery store bit together with WordWolf's treatment of Who is Your Neighbor?
You keep claiming people misrepresent you here. That simply is not true. It's a lie.
Talking about Romans earlier reminded me of the error of victor’s exegesis of Romans 13.
And how! He transferred all the higher power to himself and his minions...shameful. Even several offshoots have corrected this mistake...not that it would matter so much cause most of the offshoots still esteem St Vic as ... yeah
And how! He transferred all the higher power to himself and his minions...shameful. Even several offshoots have corrected this mistake...not that it would matter so much cause most of the offshoots still esteem St Vic as ... yeah
When you let the Bible interpret itself, it can mean anything you damn well want Or once you achieve “spiritual maturity,” it can say and mean anything you NEED it to say and mean.
That’s the beauty of it. That’s the simplicity. Just tremendous!
I'm not sure if you knew about what Craig is doing today or even interested but there was a thread awhile back on his most recent teachings and here is the webpage.
I'll check it out. I can't help comparing him possibly with King Saul; when he was little in his own sight he was OK, but once he became the mogfodat....not so much.
OK, checked it out. I am pleasantly surprised so far. The last time I heard LCM teach was more than 25 years ago. He said things like "This is gonna be done right if I have to run every fellowship in the country!!!" He was always talking about "contaminated believers" to the point of obsession. Not so much anymore.
He is no longer shackled by the time constraints of SNS nor the pressure of being prez of TWI and its legacy. His words sound a lot more relaxed and measured. I've listened to 2 of his teachings, each just under 2 hours long. He doesn't have to censor himself, either. Didn't drop any f bombs but used the word 'a$$' in several configurations, usually in support of saying what walking by the spirit is not.
He seems to believe that his being kicked out of TWI presidency and whatever else they did to him was a violation of covenants of salt from both his ordination in 1974 and his installation as president in 1982 and he considers those people as dead to him. No interaction and doesn't even pray for any of them. This has got to be talking about current TWI people. His perspective on "contaminated believers" HAD to be affected by all that. He believes he has been betrayed by those he trusted.
He can be just as blunt as ever, but he sounds a lot more like he's his own man now. I still believe his increased influence at that time led the ministry awry, but I'm going to listen to more of his teachings. He really doesn't sound like somebody who is heavily medicated for depression like I've heard here. He lives in Kentucky now.
This may be a new idea TO YOU, but it's an old idea to nearly 100% of everyone who ever took a pfal class, because they all left twi and did something else. Many left to join smaller, decentralized groups, if only for a time. So, let the people who care more about the organization than about what God said and what the Bible ACTUALLY said have the buildings and pay the rent, and the rest went off to serve God somewhere else. This is an old idea that goes all the way back to the book of Acts and the School of Tyrannus.
Not a new idea. I could write reams on it, but don't have time for that now.
Please remember that I too left TWI, and had my adventures and learning and service far from them, and in a large variety of ways.
In a nutshell, I am only now coming back to TWI, after being very absent for about 34 years. My coming back is very loose, though, as their most regular fellowships are too far a driving distance away for regular attendance by me.
Arrangements were made to run the PFAL-T class VERY close to where I live last month, though, so I jumped on it. I even signed up (sort of) an old grad friend who was curious like me. Another old grad friend who stayed in was there, so it was lots of fun, and lots of learning.
I am still doing all sorts of things with non-grads, just like the majority of grads who left TWI that you reported above, regarding their diaspora, and that I bold fonted.
I’ve learned to integrate and work with both Christian and non-Christian groups. Each one requires a vocabulary shift, to avoid making unpleasant waves, and I simply contribute to whatever good is going on in them.
Sometimes one of these experiments worked well, and sometimes not, or only for a little while. Details would fill too many scrolls up, and as usual here, too incredulous to most.
I did a lot of trinity debating in the 1970s at local churches with elders and pastors, but this time I learned to keep all debate out of my dialog.I’ve met with men’s discussion groups, and learned how to magnify what we agreed on.A few times it was challenging, but I was there to give what I could and not proselytize.I knew that wouldn’t work.
I don’t debate with the TWI folks here at all, either. I don’t want to disrupt their working with newer people, and I love celebrating the Word with them. When we were alone, like in a car together, the sky was the limit on talk. I could see they were like 1970s regular grads, and not at all like later 1980s Corps, demanding respect and extending a ring hand to be kissed.
They earned my respect, and I theirs. I told them I was writing up my detailed review and suggestions for PFAL-T.Add to all this, I've hade voluminous texting with a couple of TWI leaders in other States. It’s all an evolving situation, much like I’d like to see situation evolve here in how I interact.
He believes he has been betrayed by those he trusted.
Who is the betrayer? Let him find out. Let him cleanse the oil from his head. Let him get humble. Let him get meek.
It’s vitally important that he deeply feels this perceived betrayal. It’s essential for him to find out what it means to be betrayed and what it means to be the betrayer.
He usually spent 35 minutes or so rambling before ever quoting a verse. Often off topic.
Thanks. Time constraint? What a cop out.
(It’s only a constraint if you beleeve it is.)
Any limit, including time, can and should foster creativity, efficiency and focus. If it doesn’t, the problem isn’t the limit, it’s the attention on the constraint and not the solution.
The adult attention limit is only 45 minutes, or somewhere close.
I'm not sure if you knew about what Craig is doing today or even interested but there was a thread awhile back on his most recent teachings and here is the webpage.
I'll check it out. I can't help comparing him possibly with King Saul; when he was little in his own sight he was OK, but once he became the mogfodat....not so much.
OK, checked it out. I am pleasantly surprised so far. The last time I heard LCM teach was more than 25 years ago. He said things like "This is gonna be done right if I have to run every fellowship in the country!!!" He was always talking about "contaminated believers" to the point of obsession. Not so much anymore.
He is no longer shackled by the time constraints of SNS nor the pressure of being prez of TWI and its legacy. His words sound a lot more relaxed and measured. I've listened to 2 of his teachings, each just under 2 hours long. He doesn't have to censor himself, either. Didn't drop any f bombs but used the word 'a$$' in several configurations, usually in support of saying what walking by the spirit is not.
He seems to believe that his being kicked out of TWI presidency and whatever else they did to him was a violation of covenants of salt from both his ordination in 1974 and his installation as president in 1982 and he considers those people as dead to him. No interaction and doesn't even pray for any of them. This has got to be talking about current TWI people. His perspective on "contaminated believers" HAD to be affected by all that. He believes he has been betrayed by those he trusted.
He can be just as blunt as ever, but he sounds a lot more like he's his own man now. I still believe his increased influence at that time led the ministry awry, but I'm going to listen to more of his teachings. He really doesn't sound like somebody who is heavily medicated for depression like I've heard here. He lives in Kentucky now.
Thx John. I will listen from time to time myself too.
Hi, friends! Sorry I'm late to the party. I step in and out of cult world, because it's just too heavy sometimes. I'm Craig's oldest kid and wanted to jump on this thread to help out if I can...
Annio, I think the website you're writing about is at biblebookprofiler.com. That's not him, though. So the things written about depression and anxiety and suicidal thoughts -- which I can't imagine him ever admitting to -- and the personality tests are not him. It's some other guy that happens to have posted dad's stuff on his site.
Dad is actually doing these "teachings" currently, and most (if not all?) of his followers are ex-Way people. This frustrates me to no end. How many people will he hurt and mislead in his lifetime?
As to the question of his mental health and where he went astray -- out of respect and love for my grandmother, who is still living, I won't give details here. But parts of his childhood were intensely traumatic. This might sound odd, but, as far as I can have compassion for him, I believe he was born a gentle soul and is rather fragile. Hence all the bluster and anger and defensiveness (and face meltings). I don't write this to excuse his behavior, but I find that understanding him helps me, at least. He was primed to need a daddy figure, and he got one in Wierwille.
He has seen a counselor. Briefly, in 2000, maybe for about a year. I also saw this counselor, and he helped me immensely in a time of deep depression. I think he was hardly able to scratch the surface with dad. Dad attended out of obligation at the time.
What else...? If you have questions, I'll answer them if I can <3
On 9/10/2022 at 1:54 PM, BecomingMe said:
There's a lot to respond to here, and I probably will repeat others / miss stuff...
One thought that comes up from several is basically the idea that he should be respected, or that he helped some people, or that he wasn't all "that" bad. I definitely respect each individual's personal experiences and opinions. AND his overall presence in the world, in my opinion, has been a net negative. He was a victim of VPW's, yes. And he was also a villain/perpetrator/predator to many, many others.
I know this is harsh, and I hope I don’t offend anyone too deeply, but he doesn’t deserve anyone’s admiration or respect. He was/is a cult leader that took advantage of people over and over again. Did he do some good? Yes. But it’s overshadowed by the — at best — delusional decisions he made about people’s lives, livelihoods, families, social lives, personal wellbeing, their bodies, their choices…the list goes on and on. I think of all the points here this is the hot-button one for me, so my personal experience perhaps clouds my judgement. But I also think my personal experience informs my judgement here in a way others don’t have access to — meaning, I know what kind of a person he was/is.
WordWolf, you mentioned that those listening to him now are probably over 50 and are responsible for their own thoughts and beliefs. Thank you for that perspective; you’re right, I think (hope?), although I do think brainwashing is real and more powerful than popular opinion sees it as.
Another question that comes up is whether he really believes his stuff or is just a con man. He believes it wholeheartedly. Always has, and I think always will. I think that in itself is a “reason” he continues on with teaching. He believes it’s God’s will.
On 9/10/2022 at 1:56 PM, BecomingMe said:
Stayed Too Long, I do understand your skepticism, and I’m grateful to Rocky for speaking up on my behalf. I welcome private messages from anyone who is still skeptical.
You asked why I’ve waited so long to speak up. For years, I was so afraid to. Dad’s perspective on the internet and sites like Greasespot being fiery darts lodged itself in my brain and was hard to fight for awhile. After that, I was afraid news of my writing here would get back to my mom, with whom I still have a relationship I would like to maintain. Another factor you may not have considered is that this is my family being written about, so it feels pretty personal. But the basic answer here is trauma. I’ve grappled with one traumatic memory after another, one trauma reaction after another. So it’s taken me a minute to be ready to show up.
On 9/11/2022 at 8:44 AM, BecomingMe said:
YES, cman!!!!! I totally agree. And when I thought I had worked out most of the "doctrinal" stuff, there was a whole layer of psychological bull$!*% left along with a thick layer of trauma reactions. I'm trying to come to peace with the idea that I may never be done.
On 9/14/2022 at 8:59 PM, BecomingMe said:
Thanks for the kind words, Twinky.
To answer your questions above -- yes, I still visit mom there, and it's surreal to go there. I'm pretty much fine if we keep to ourselves. A few years ago, I went briefly into the OSC when people were there picking up meals. Familiar faces....people started saying hi and bless you and love you...and I had a panic attack and had to get out of there asap.
I think the hardest part with my dad is that he's my dad -- what I mean by that is that I have some father-daughter memories that are pretty sweet; I have the father-daughter biological attachment and emotional attachment. I haven't yet been able to leave him completely behind because, in spite of everything, I love him. He's my dad.
Anyway, thanks for your understanding and kindness. I value them quite a lot. <3
On 9/14/2022 at 9:04 PM, BecomingMe said:
Stayed Too Long, thank you for writing this. I can only imagine the trauma of M&A. It had to be intense.
As for me, my mental health has improved immensely over the last year or two. I have some tough stuff going on in my life at the moment, and tonight a friend asked me, "But is your mental health OK?" And I could honestly say, "Yes." That felt really good. I'm so grateful to be OK.
On 10/2/2022 at 9:33 AM, BecomingMe said:
chockfull, hi! Thanks for the reply :D If we saw each other in Founder's Hall and it was about 2002, I was definitely wanting to escape and had no idea how!
I love your weird question! It's very insightful...I have some horrible memories about pets...we had outdoor cats that we'd feed that lived in the Way Woods. And, as cats do when they roam free, they'd get into sticky situations and not come back. One got stepped on by a clergy guy staying in one of the guest rooms attached to the house, and she died. I was little...so why do I know this detail about how she died!? Another time, one of the cats had kittens, and the maintenance guy set up a box where we fed them (I'm sure he was directed to) and shot them when they went into the box...I happened upon the box and freaked out (understandably). I must have been about 5. :(
We also had a dog for several years that Chris Geer gave us. Chocolate brown German Shorthair named Zula. She was the sweetest thing. She was super anxious - she'd chew the logs on the wall at night. Dad hated her. He never was much of a pet person, but after the whole Passing of the Patriarch thing...he just kind of stayed away from her. Eventually she lived out her days in a kennel. I remember her just disappearing one day and that was that. So, not really a "normal" relationship to pets in my house.
On 10/4/2022 at 3:46 PM, BecomingMe said:
I believe his "new" group has "remnant" in the name. It's one of his justifications for his actions...he's really really really good at rationalizing.
He was a trainer at Bally's for a little while a couple years after he left. He worked at UPS slinging boxes for about 10 years, and was a cart boy at Home Depot for a couple years too.
On 10/17/2022 at 1:33 PM, BecomingMe said:
On the remnant discussion, something I think is relevant:
I can't comment on Biblical significance or anything like that. But I will tell you LCM is practiced at constant rationalization. When he left / was kicked out / whatever you want to call it, I watched him rationalize his situation over and over and over again. It made me look at what he taught differently: if he has this mindset of rationalization, how much of what he taught that he thought was Godly really came from his using rationalization to make himself feel better?
The BIG one (for me) is abortion: if he needed women to get abortions to hide his infidelity, how could he make it Godly? By rationalizing it Biblically. Adultery? When it's printed that way in the King James, it should be more "accurately" translated "idolatry." It goes on and on. How much of his doctrine is more about his lack of mental health than it is about genuine inspiration? My guess is: a LOT.
So, as to the remnant, it's my thought that it's just another rationalization for his behavior (marking and avoiding so many people) and for the situation (people leaving TWI in droves in the late 80s). It's how he dealt with the cognitive dissonance and the pain of so many people leaving.
He seems to believe that his being kicked out of TWI presidency and whatever else they did to him was a violation of covenants of salt from both his ordination in 1974 and his installation as president in 1982 and he considers those people as dead to him. No interaction and doesn't even pray for any of them. This has got to be talking about current TWI people. His perspective on "contaminated believers" HAD to be affected by all that. He believes he has been betrayed by those he trusted.
This paragraph is most telling. No remorse for wrong doings...just deepseated resentment. He was wrong and can't admit it..he wasn't screwed over so much as, he became the fall guy for a bunch of people who were involved in the lawsuit; while they continued in way land Craig was axed. I agree with him the way it went down was wrong...but hey...he was still wrong.
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Twinky
Mike. Get this clear. I hate no-one. I hate ABUSE. Agape thinks no evil? Right. Agape calls evil out!! And I'm calling out the abuse that occurred and likely still occurs. That's not hate
chockfull
Okay reading thru this I find it hard to believe the lack of empathy. Mike is always looking to run down anyone who went thru the Corps as a problem. Actually, I don't find it hard t believe. The w
OldSkool
Correct! But a Christian organization that is all about material abundance is not a Christian orginazation at all because that's not what Christianity is about and its shameful to even attach Christ n
Mike
Ok, again.
I will have lots of time after this week. It's a big one in my business.
But like I said, I have lots of reading to do.
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Nathan_Jr
It's actually a relatively short T-Bone post. And the WordWolf post is short, also. You could easily read them while dropping a deuce or eating pistachios.
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waysider
Be sure to stay tuned for upcoming editions of award winning Greatest Secrets In The World Today. .
In future episodes, we'll take a more detailed look at the cryptic, spiritual symbolism of The Poky Little Puppy and The Little Engine That Could. (Be sure to get plenty of popcorn ready.)
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Nathan_Jr
Careful, Mike.
It's actually NOT a vast misrepresentation of what you wrote. Whether you understand the great commandments together or separate, synthesized or parallel, you miss the mark on understanding because you choose not to go beyond the "spiritual immaturity" of what victor taught.
Your grocery store bit is a mark miss. You just don't get it. Victor didn't get it, either. Go back and re-read that grocery store bit together with WordWolf's treatment of Who is Your Neighbor?
You keep claiming people misrepresent you here. That simply is not true. It's a lie.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloved hands
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OldSkool
True dat! Its the same as when he says we dont understand what he is talking about...not hard to follow along really.
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Nathan_Jr
Talking about Romans earlier reminded me of the error of victor’s exegesis of Romans 13.
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OldSkool
And how! He transferred all the higher power to himself and his minions...shameful. Even several offshoots have corrected this mistake...not that it would matter so much cause most of the offshoots still esteem St Vic as ... yeah
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Nathan_Jr
When you let the Bible interpret itself, it can mean anything you damn well want Or once you achieve “spiritual maturity,” it can say and mean anything you NEED it to say and mean.
That’s the beauty of it. That’s the simplicity. Just tremendous!
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OldSkool
And Romans 13 is an excellent example of how the Bible intrepreting itself can go totally off the rails.
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johniam
quote:
I'm not sure if you knew about what Craig is doing today or even interested but there was a thread awhile back on his most recent teachings and here is the webpage.
I'll check it out. I can't help comparing him possibly with King Saul; when he was little in his own sight he was OK, but once he became the mogfodat....not so much.
OK, checked it out. I am pleasantly surprised so far. The last time I heard LCM teach was more than 25 years ago. He said things like "This is gonna be done right if I have to run every fellowship in the country!!!" He was always talking about "contaminated believers" to the point of obsession. Not so much anymore.
He is no longer shackled by the time constraints of SNS nor the pressure of being prez of TWI and its legacy. His words sound a lot more relaxed and measured. I've listened to 2 of his teachings, each just under 2 hours long. He doesn't have to censor himself, either. Didn't drop any f bombs but used the word 'a$$' in several configurations, usually in support of saying what walking by the spirit is not.
He seems to believe that his being kicked out of TWI presidency and whatever else they did to him was a violation of covenants of salt from both his ordination in 1974 and his installation as president in 1982 and he considers those people as dead to him. No interaction and doesn't even pray for any of them. This has got to be talking about current TWI people. His perspective on "contaminated believers" HAD to be affected by all that. He believes he has been betrayed by those he trusted.
He can be just as blunt as ever, but he sounds a lot more like he's his own man now. I still believe his increased influence at that time led the ministry awry, but I'm going to listen to more of his teachings. He really doesn't sound like somebody who is heavily medicated for depression like I've heard here. He lives in Kentucky now.
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Mike
Not a new idea. I could write reams on it, but don't have time for that now.
Please remember that I too left TWI, and had my adventures and learning and service far from them, and in a large variety of ways.
In a nutshell, I am only now coming back to TWI, after being very absent for about 34 years. My coming back is very loose, though, as their most regular fellowships are too far a driving distance away for regular attendance by me.
Arrangements were made to run the PFAL-T class VERY close to where I live last month, though, so I jumped on it. I even signed up (sort of) an old grad friend who was curious like me. Another old grad friend who stayed in was there, so it was lots of fun, and lots of learning.
I am still doing all sorts of things with non-grads, just like the majority of grads who left TWI that you reported above, regarding their diaspora, and that I bold fonted.
I’ve learned to integrate and work with both Christian and non-Christian groups. Each one requires a vocabulary shift, to avoid making unpleasant waves, and I simply contribute to whatever good is going on in them.
Sometimes one of these experiments worked well, and sometimes not, or only for a little while. Details would fill too many scrolls up, and as usual here, too incredulous to most.
I did a lot of trinity debating in the 1970s at local churches with elders and pastors, but this time I learned to keep all debate out of my dialog. I’ve met with men’s discussion groups, and learned how to magnify what we agreed on. A few times it was challenging, but I was there to give what I could and not proselytize. I knew that wouldn’t work.
I don’t debate with the TWI folks here at all, either. I don’t want to disrupt their working with newer people, and I love celebrating the Word with them. When we were alone, like in a car together, the sky was the limit on talk. I could see they were like 1970s regular grads, and not at all like later 1980s Corps, demanding respect and extending a ring hand to be kissed.
They earned my respect, and I theirs. I told them I was writing up my detailed review and suggestions for PFAL-T. Add to all this, I've hade voluminous texting with a couple of TWI leaders in other States. It’s all an evolving situation, much like I’d like to see situation evolve here in how I interact.
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Nathan_Jr
Who is the betrayer? Let him find out. Let him cleanse the oil from his head. Let him get humble. Let him get meek.
It’s vitally important that he deeply feels this perceived betrayal. It’s essential for him to find out what it means to be betrayed and what it means to be the betrayer.
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Nathan_Jr
What is the time constraint?
Anyone, please.
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Bolshevik
An hour?
He usually spent 35 minutes or so rambling before ever quoting a verse. Often off topic.
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Nathan_Jr
Thanks. Time constraint? What a cop out.
(It’s only a constraint if you beleeve it is.)
Any limit, including time, can and should foster creativity, efficiency and focus. If it doesn’t, the problem isn’t the limit, it’s the attention on the constraint and not the solution.
The adult attention limit is only 45 minutes, or somewhere close.
Two hours of holding forth… Yikes!
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Nathan_Jr
Sounds like the problem isn’t a time constraint, it’s him.
As he “spiritually matures” and graduates far beyond what he was taught, he will learn to be throughly effectual in the time allowed.
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Rocky
Now that's GRAVITAS.
But it's NOT intellectual honesty. And it's not related to the interaction between you and I.
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oldiesman
Thx John. I will listen from time to time myself too.
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OldSkool
STS supposed to be around 45 minutes or so. Craig never cared and would ramble much longer at times.
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Nathan_Jr
What’s the difference between STS and SNS?
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OldSkool
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OldSkool
time - sunday night verses sunday teaching...not much difference really...went from the evening to 3pm to 11am most recently.
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Bolshevik
11 am? More time to pregame SNF
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OldSkool
This paragraph is most telling. No remorse for wrong doings...just deepseated resentment. He was wrong and can't admit it..he wasn't screwed over so much as, he became the fall guy for a bunch of people who were involved in the lawsuit; while they continued in way land Craig was axed. I agree with him the way it went down was wrong...but hey...he was still wrong.
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