I ended up assuming the second question was best to answer, about my empathy for GreaseSpot people, and the TWI hurts life situations that brought them here.
Here is how I answered it:
I was NOT touting the collaterals at all back then (1987). I was an A.V. man and what mattered to me was the PFAL'68 video. I had privately come to the conclusion that VPW went through some kind of downward spiral, or downward spasm after LCM came in, and after his stroke (date?).
I had started tuning out respect and attention towards VPW a few years earlier, when I heard his voice on an SNT around Dec 1982, and could tell he had a stroke. I was also not happy with him for SOME of the Corps, by the time of Ralph's meeting in 1987.
The Corps were a problem for me in the early 80s, but the secrecy and strong-arming they did after the 1986 POP was the end of my respect, for what I called by then "Wierwille's Folly."
[In the 1986 meltdown, when Corps leadership needed the power the most, it wasn't there.]
What I heard there from Ralph sunk my respect for VPW the man, not just his Corps that Summer of '87.
For the next 10 years I had some wild adventures.I still thought the 1968 video class video was gold, but that VPW had slipped from his diligence after the filming. I likened it to what happens to some Olympic Gold Winners in the years after reaching their gold pinnacle. I knew that kind of thing happened to Solomon.
During that decade of time, 1987 to 1998, I went up and down on my memories and conversations about VPW.I was often thankful for his ministry that made the class, but thought sometime afterwards he went from best to good, and then much lower.During that 10 years I attended all of John Lynn’s meetings. He came once a year after Ralph, until 1998.That was the time I discovered that I had missed a lot that was in the collaterals.
So, I can empathize with everyone here in their disappointment with VPW and TWI.I just happened to go through it all earlier, and was then miraculously handed the solution in 1998.
Hey I still need help on this: where can I do some detailed review of Charlene's book?
Protocol looks difficult.
I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't.
On one one hand, posting my comments, and quotes w page numbers on her thread would be in extremely bad taste. That is her Publishing Party thread. It would be bad manners for me to even have a super civil debate there.
On the other hand, I do a thread on it, that would look like I'm trying to do battle. I'm not. I don't have that much to say.
Then on the third hand....(? legal grammar?) if I post detailed comments scattered here and there, it looks like I am badmouthing her all over town, behind her back.
Where would be the best place to talk about the details in "Undertow" ???
I was the AV man everywhere I went in TWI.
That was my main function in TWI.
The AV man in TWI was similar to the AV man in High School: setting up class audio and video equipment, and pushing the buttons at the right time for the class instructor.
One of the dangers I foresee in me posting directly on penworks thread is me dragging in some other posters, who then disrupt my super civil attempt to debate there, and then the food fight starts.
No thanks! I will spare her, and refrain from posting there.
She is an super elegant person in my memory, and I want to not disrupt that. That would happen with the the jeering and mocking committee I'd drag in there with me. it would be no good... and even worse if the scatological special effects are thrown in.
Emotion researchers generally define empathy as the ability to sense other people's emotions, coupled with the ability to imagine what someone else might be thinking or feeling.
My disappointment with wierwille / PFAL / TWI is not the same as someone who still defends wierwille / PFAL / TWI by making excuses for it all and wants to particularize what’s the baby and what’s the dirty bath water. Their disappointment seems to be over wierwille not being perfect and Grease Spotters are unforgiving.
I’m disillusioned over wierwille being a phony, a con man! The man and his “ministry” are worthless! He’s the false prophet / ferocious wolf / bad tree of Matthew 7: 15 - 20 …and Jesus did NOT say “don’t throw out the baby with the bath water “ …He said every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. He did NOT say reform or try to salvage the bad tree or its fruit!
And it saddens me to see anyone hold onto wierwille / PFAL with great tenacity while in their delusional world they make like they understand why I am dissatisfied with my whole TWI experience because they went through the same thing. They did not! They still believe wierwille’s bull$hit.
wierwille could have had the best of intentions. But If he meant to do good then he should have gone about it honestly- instead of claiming he heard from God . If he was honest - why didn’t he just say “I got this from so-and-so, you should take BG Leonard’s class. “ why did he have to lie? Why did he have to steal? Why did he plagiarize big time?
if he really believed God talked to him and God helped him “ correct” what others taught - then he was delusional. And anyone who comes to Grease Spot regularly and still thinks wierwille/ PFAL is the greatest thing since rightly-divided bread is probably delusional too. 4 crucified Bible interprets itself delusional!
I left because I realized wierwille is a big phony and his life, his doctrines…his theories…and his practices can be summed up in two words: hypocritical bull$hit !
~ ~ ~ ~
Late edit:
I should also clarify the huge difference of experiences.
Once Fred and Jane got married, Fred finds that Jane is no longer interested in going hunting and fishing with him. They still get along great and do other fun things together. Fred is a little saddened because he wanted her to be into his favorite hobbies like he is. That’s disappointment. People are not perfect so there’s bound to be some let downs.
One day Fred returns home early from fishing due to bad weather – and finds Jane in bed with an old boyfriend from college – and it also comes out that there’s been others – for years. That’s betrayal. That’s what con artists do.
Some disappointments can be negotiated, corrected, or compromised; others must be accepted and tolerated, if the relationship is otherwise viable and important to you. In contrast, betrayal is non-negotiable, intolerable, and should never be accepted without significant relationship repair.
Hey I still need help on this: where can I do some detailed review of Charlene's book?
Protocol looks difficult.
I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't.
On one one hand, posting my comments, and quotes w page numbers on her thread would be in extremely bad taste. That is her Publishing Party thread. It would be bad manners for me to even have a super civil debate there.
On the other hand, I do a thread on it, that would look like I'm trying to do battle. I'm not. I don't have that much to say.
Then on the third hand....(? legal grammar?) if I post detailed comments scattered here and there, it looks like I am badmouthing her all over town, behind her back.
Where would be the best place to talk about the details in "Undertow" ???
Start a new thread rocket scientist. Threads are how to keep discussions focused on a certain direction.
I know it doesn’t work on this forum for you but try really hard.
Your like the waterboy of pflap. I bet working AV is where you learned to push buttons....
You'd regret that bet.
The reason I fell into that ministry position is because I had latched onto the inner workings of transistor radios when I was 11, and worked in the Nuclear Structure Laboratory in their Van de Graff accelerator on the SUNY campus of Stony Brook. We had a lot of buttons there.
I started in ministry AV work by helping Mark Gluckin with setting up "Pressed Down" concerts before I took the class.
We frequently send stuff like that back and forth to each other.
After 46 years of marriage, it’s come to this…a new phase in life…a cyber-phase
That's cool....gotta keep things fresh and introduce new stuff into the mix...makes for a happy long lasting marriage and u guys exemplify that with 46 years in the books...congrats!
The reason I fell into that ministry position is because I had latched onto the inner workings of transistor radios when I was 11, and worked in the Nuclear Structure Laboratory in their Van de Graff accelerator on the SUNY campus of Stony Brook. We had a lot of buttons there.
I started in ministry AV work by helping Mark Gluckin with setting up "Pressed Down" concerts before I took the class.
I don't doubt your av skills or your abilities at atom smashing...I was chuckling cause you take everything back to pflap....I know all the witnessing techniques too....bring it all back to wierwille....lol
The reason I fell into that ministry position is because I had latched onto the inner workings of transistor radios when I was 11, and worked in the Nuclear Structure Laboratory in their Van de Graff accelerator on the SUNY campus of Stony Brook. We had a lot of buttons there.
I started in ministry AV work by helping Mark Gluckin with setting up "Pressed Down" concerts before I took the class.
I’m starting to understand a little more. Gluckin had an exhaustive audio collection of teachings. I mean he ran his Twig by instead of teaching or having a live teacher every single meeting was an old audio tape of VPW from his collection.
He was a casualty of the LCM transition. He never got with “the present truth” so was booted.
You were led directly into your VPW worship by a much more experienced clergyman.
I’m starting to understand a little more. Gluckin had an exhaustive audio collection of teachings. I mean he ran his Twig by instead of teaching or having a live teacher every single meeting was an old audio tape of VPW from his collection.
He was a casualty of the LCM transition. He never got with “the present truth” so was booted.
You were led directly into your VPW worship by a much more experienced clergyman.
. . . Mike mostly listened to tapes? Like a kid in the attic listening to old records?
I’m starting to understand a little more. Gluckin had an .... He was a casualty of the LCM transition. He never got with “the present truth” so was booted.
I think it went down different.
The "present truth" thing came (I surmise) a few years after Gluckin left voluntarily. Gluckin and Geer were friends at Rye, and he went with Geer.
From my phone conversations with him long afterwards, they did not want him to leave TWI. Similarly with Walter, only there I have no first-hand info.
The "present truth" thing came (I surmise) a few years after Gluckin left voluntarily. Gluckin and Geer were friends at Rye, and he went with Geer.
From my phone conversations with him long afterwards, they did not want him to leave TWI. Similarly with Walter, only there I have no first-hand info.
Gluckin did not leave voluntarily. He was kicked out. If he told you differently he is lying. Or you are lying about the story. I was there. I saw the impact on his family.
You see when I get into stories like this with you I reach points of inconsistency.
So basically I don’t trust your old stories to be true or accurate. You are fibbing and making things up like your idol VP.
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Twinky
Mike. Get this clear. I hate no-one. I hate ABUSE. Agape thinks no evil? Right. Agape calls evil out!! And I'm calling out the abuse that occurred and likely still occurs. That's not hate
chockfull
Okay reading thru this I find it hard to believe the lack of empathy. Mike is always looking to run down anyone who went thru the Corps as a problem. Actually, I don't find it hard t believe. The w
OldSkool
Correct! But a Christian organization that is all about material abundance is not a Christian orginazation at all because that's not what Christianity is about and its shameful to even attach Christ n
Mike
Pssst... off the record. Just between you and me.
Your readers are being cheated; being robbed of context.
Here, you can pass this off to them, and don't tell them where you got it:
Do you mean, I have no empathy for my readers because, because I let the text get too long ???
Or do you mean empathy for you and GreaseSpotters?
My post to Nathan_Jr yesterday, addresses that issue of empathy.
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Nathan_Jr
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Mike
I ended up assuming the second question was best to answer, about my empathy for GreaseSpot people, and the TWI hurts life situations that brought them here.
Here is how I answered it:
I was NOT touting the collaterals at all back then (1987). I was an A.V. man and what mattered to me was the PFAL'68 video. I had privately come to the conclusion that VPW went through some kind of downward spiral, or downward spasm after LCM came in, and after his stroke (date?).
I had started tuning out respect and attention towards VPW a few years earlier, when I heard his voice on an SNT around Dec 1982, and could tell he had a stroke. I was also not happy with him for SOME of the Corps, by the time of Ralph's meeting in 1987.
The Corps were a problem for me in the early 80s, but the secrecy and strong-arming they did after the 1986 POP was the end of my respect, for what I called by then "Wierwille's Folly."
[In the 1986 meltdown, when Corps leadership needed the power the most, it wasn't there.]
What I heard there from Ralph sunk my respect for VPW the man, not just his Corps that Summer of '87.
For the next 10 years I had some wild adventures. I still thought the 1968 video class video was gold, but that VPW had slipped from his diligence after the filming. I likened it to what happens to some Olympic Gold Winners in the years after reaching their gold pinnacle. I knew that kind of thing happened to Solomon.
During that decade of time, 1987 to 1998, I went up and down on my memories and conversations about VPW. I was often thankful for his ministry that made the class, but thought sometime afterwards he went from best to good, and then much lower. During that 10 years I attended all of John Lynn’s meetings. He came once a year after Ralph, until 1998. That was the time I discovered that I had missed a lot that was in the collaterals.
So, I can empathize with everyone here in their disappointment with VPW and TWI. I just happened to go through it all earlier, and was then miraculously handed the solution in 1998.
I come in peace, and I always did.
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Nathan_Jr
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Mike
Hey I still need help on this: where can I do some detailed review of Charlene's book?
Protocol looks difficult.
I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't.
On one one hand, posting my comments, and quotes w page numbers on her thread would be in extremely bad taste. That is her Publishing Party thread. It would be bad manners for me to even have a super civil debate there.
On the other hand, I do a thread on it, that would look like I'm trying to do battle. I'm not. I don't have that much to say.
Then on the third hand....(? legal grammar?) if I post detailed comments scattered here and there, it looks like I am badmouthing her all over town, behind her back.
Where would be the best place to talk about the details in "Undertow" ???
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Nathan_Jr
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Mike
I was the AV man everywhere I went in TWI.
That was my main function in TWI.
The AV man in TWI was similar to the AV man in High School: setting up class audio and video equipment, and pushing the buttons at the right time for the class instructor.
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Mike
One of the dangers I foresee in me posting directly on penworks thread is me dragging in some other posters, who then disrupt my super civil attempt to debate there, and then the food fight starts.
No thanks! I will spare her, and refrain from posting there.
She is an super elegant person in my memory, and I want to not disrupt that. That would happen with the the jeering and mocking committee I'd drag in there with me. it would be no good... and even worse if the scatological special effects are thrown in.
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Nathan_Jr
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T-Bone
Yet another take on empathy
Emotion researchers generally define empathy as the ability to sense other people's emotions, coupled with the ability to imagine what someone else might be thinking or feeling.
My disappointment with wierwille / PFAL / TWI is not the same as someone who still defends wierwille / PFAL / TWI by making excuses for it all and wants to particularize what’s the baby and what’s the dirty bath water. Their disappointment seems to be over wierwille not being perfect and Grease Spotters are unforgiving.
I’m disillusioned over wierwille being a phony, a con man! The man and his “ministry” are worthless! He’s the false prophet / ferocious wolf / bad tree of Matthew 7: 15 - 20 …and Jesus did NOT say “don’t throw out the baby with the bath water “ …He said every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. He did NOT say reform or try to salvage the bad tree or its fruit!
And it saddens me to see anyone hold onto wierwille / PFAL with great tenacity while in their delusional world they make like they understand why I am dissatisfied with my whole TWI experience because they went through the same thing. They did not! They still believe wierwille’s bull$hit.
wierwille could have had the best of intentions. But If he meant to do good then he should have gone about it honestly- instead of claiming he heard from God . If he was honest - why didn’t he just say “I got this from so-and-so, you should take BG Leonard’s class. “ why did he have to lie? Why did he have to steal? Why did he plagiarize big time?
if he really believed God talked to him and God helped him “ correct” what others taught - then he was delusional. And anyone who comes to Grease Spot regularly and still thinks wierwille/ PFAL is the greatest thing since rightly-divided bread is probably delusional too. 4 crucified Bible interprets itself delusional!
I left because I realized wierwille is a big phony and his life, his doctrines…his theories…and his practices can be summed up in two words: hypocritical bull$hit !
~ ~ ~ ~
Late edit:
I should also clarify the huge difference of experiences.
Once Fred and Jane got married, Fred finds that Jane is no longer interested in going hunting and fishing with him. They still get along great and do other fun things together. Fred is a little saddened because he wanted her to be into his favorite hobbies like he is. That’s disappointment. People are not perfect so there’s bound to be some let downs.
One day Fred returns home early from fishing due to bad weather – and finds Jane in bed with an old boyfriend from college – and it also comes out that there’s been others – for years. That’s betrayal. That’s what con artists do.
Some disappointments can be negotiated, corrected, or compromised; others must be accepted and tolerated, if the relationship is otherwise viable and important to you. In contrast, betrayal is non-negotiable, intolerable, and should never be accepted without significant relationship repair.
From: When Disappointment Feels Like Betrayal | Psychology Today
Edited by T-Bonelate edit: disappointment vs betrayal
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OldSkool
Your like the waterboy of pflap. I bet working AV is where you learned to push buttons....
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Bolshevik
. . . Momma said alligators are ornery because they have all those teeth and no toothbrush
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T-Bone
some threads are like a spectator sport
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OldSkool
Man...I freaking rolled...thx for that one...thie ghetto @$$ cats running backup ..lmao
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T-Bone
Got that from my wife
We frequently send stuff like that back and forth to each other.
After 46 years of marriage, it’s come to this…a new phase in life…a cyber-phase
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chockfull
Start a new thread rocket scientist. Threads are how to keep discussions focused on a certain direction.
I know it doesn’t work on this forum for you but try really hard.
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Mike
You'd regret that bet.
The reason I fell into that ministry position is because I had latched onto the inner workings of transistor radios when I was 11, and worked in the Nuclear Structure Laboratory in their Van de Graff accelerator on the SUNY campus of Stony Brook. We had a lot of buttons there.
I started in ministry AV work by helping Mark Gluckin with setting up "Pressed Down" concerts before I took the class.
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OldSkool
That's cool....gotta keep things fresh and introduce new stuff into the mix...makes for a happy long lasting marriage and u guys exemplify that with 46 years in the books...congrats!
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OldSkool
I don't doubt your av skills or your abilities at atom smashing...I was chuckling cause you take everything back to pflap....I know all the witnessing techniques too....bring it all back to wierwille....lol
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chockfull
I’m starting to understand a little more. Gluckin had an exhaustive audio collection of teachings. I mean he ran his Twig by instead of teaching or having a live teacher every single meeting was an old audio tape of VPW from his collection.
He was a casualty of the LCM transition. He never got with “the present truth” so was booted.
You were led directly into your VPW worship by a much more experienced clergyman.
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Bolshevik
. . . Mike mostly listened to tapes? Like a kid in the attic listening to old records?
. . . that's what conditioned him?
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Mike
I think it went down different.
The "present truth" thing came (I surmise) a few years after Gluckin left voluntarily. Gluckin and Geer were friends at Rye, and he went with Geer.
From my phone conversations with him long afterwards, they did not want him to leave TWI. Similarly with Walter, only there I have no first-hand info.
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chockfull
Gluckin did not leave voluntarily. He was kicked out. If he told you differently he is lying. Or you are lying about the story. I was there. I saw the impact on his family.
You see when I get into stories like this with you I reach points of inconsistency.
So basically I don’t trust your old stories to be true or accurate. You are fibbing and making things up like your idol VP.
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So_crates
Your read only audience? What read only audience?
You show a serious lack of empathy for your readers. Do you honestly think your long, rambling posts get read?
People nowadays equate reading with work.
I know that when I see a post the size of the one on the previous page I either skip it or start skimming.
These days it's best to keep things short: short words, short sentences, short paragraphs, short posts.
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