Just to be clear, leadership at HQ are embarrassed by Mike and johniam posting on the internet?
It's not that they are posting it's what they are posting....they are bringing up so many things TWI wants buried....put it this way...you want those two representing you online?...
It's not that they are posting it's what they are posting....they are bringing up so many things TWI wants buried....put it this way...you want those two representing you online?...
Lol
I don't even know what they're saying most of the time.
It's not that they are posting it's what they are posting....they are bringing up so many things TWI wants buried....put it this way...you want those two representing you online?...
I can see that. The last thing The Way would want is someone causing their checkered past to be resurrected every other post.
I've thought along somewhat parallel lines, but in opposite directions.
I’ve wondered for 20 years is TWI happy that I face their Goliaths for them? ...thus relieving them of the hassle?
For a long time, like 15 and 20 years ago, I was pi$$ed they weren’t sending in reinforcements to help me !!
It occurred to me once that there may be WayGB agents who post here under pseudonyms. (DONT look at me!) But soon I realized that the $$$ cost of that was something only the pre1986 ministry could afford.
But as several more years ticked by, I came across several reasons for their silence here, as well as their silence in general, and their general insularity. Some of the possible reasons I arrived at were noble reasons, some ignoble.
I started slowly empathizing with them. Later still, when I met with local leaders with the big changes starting a few years ago, they confirmed some of my hunches.
Contrary to my slow warm-up to TWI people lately, I have ALWAYS empathized with the people here at GreaseSpot, as I do to this day.
How you say? ...as you wipe fresh-spit coffee off your keyboard and monitor.
I had previews of GreaseSpot sentiments years before it started.
I had private previews of a lot of the horror movies that stirred the founding of WayDale and GSC.
I had to produce a mini-version, a "pre-Schoenheit Paper" about 6 years before he did.
I started grappling with the mission of the Research Department in the later 197os, possibly before Charlene did.(BTW, I haven't gotten that point in my reading.)
In July 1987 Ralph D visited SD and did a 2 day meeting, with several meetings per day. I attended Day 2 for several hours. It was almost identical to everything that goes on today here at GreaseSpot, only it was LIVE, no re-takes, no editing, no protection from shoving and fists in heated discussions !!!
I was absolutely sickened when I got my first viewing of the Schoenheit Paper there. Ralph gave me a thick copy. I had heard “all” about it from local loyalist Corps, that its devil spirits would get a reader believing in the Trinity in no time.But at that LIVE GreaseSpot meeting in 1967 I could see that it was almost identical to my in-house twig research on sex in 1980 !!!
That made me as bitter as anyone here !
I was NOT touting the collaterals at all back then. I was an A.V. man and what mattered to me was the PFAL'68 video. I had privately come to the conclusion that VPW went through some kind of downward spiral, or downward spasm after LCM came in.
I had started tuning out VPW a few years earlier, when I heard his voice on an SNT around Dec 1982, and could tell he had a stroke. I was also not happy with him for the Corps, by the time of Ralph's meeting in 1987.
The Corps were a problem for me in the early 80s, but the secrecy and strongarming they did after the 1986 POP was the end of my respect, for what I called by then "Wierwille's Folly."
What I heard there from Ralph sunk my respect for VPW the man, not just his Corps.
For the next 10 years I had some wild adventures.I still thought the 1968 video class video was gold, but that VPW had slipped from his diligence after the filming. I likened it to what happens to some Olympic Gold Winners in the years after reaching their gold pinnacle. I knew that kind of thing happened to Solomon.
During that decade of time, 1987 to 1998, I went up and down on my memories and conversations about VPW.I was often thankful for his ministry that made the class, but thought sometime afterwards he went from best to good, and then much lower.During that 10 years I attended all of John Lynn’s meetings. He came once a year after Ralph, until 1998.That was the time I discovered that I had missed a lot that was in the collaterals.
So, I can empathize with everyone here in their disappointment with VPW and TWI.I just happened to go through it all earlier, and was then miraculously handed the solution in 1998.
I come in peace, and I always did.
So miracle man can we still call you Mike? Or does it need to be “GS Answer” ?
Who here said they need a solution? And what was the problem again? Other than how to redefine darkness light?
My solution is easy. Now that I’ve grown up I’ve put off cult anti Christ logic and worshipping idols and like to be inclusive with the entire body of Christ not being constrained by the bondage of TWI false doctrine.
quote: Lately, I’ve wondered: Is TWI embarrassed that Mike and Johniam are defenders of the cult? Why hasn’t TWI tried to stop the crazy train?
Are you stoned, or just retarded? Didn't you read my post where I said I chose my marriage above the ministry that taught me the word? I also said that IMO they made shipwreck of their faith. You call that "defenders of the cult"??? What are they going to do to stop me??? Order a hit??? Take another prozak!!!
quote: Lately, I’ve wondered: Is TWI embarrassed that Mike and Johniam are defenders of the cult? Why hasn’t TWI tried to stop the crazy train?
Are you stoned, or just retarded? Didn't you read my post where I said I chose my marriage above the ministry that taught me the word? I also said that IMO they made shipwreck of their faith. You call that "defenders of the cult"??? What are they going to do to stop me??? Order a hit??? Take another prozak!!!
And even if they did... oh, come on... how could they possibly make sense of what Mike rambles on about anyway?
You mean you doubt that with all of Mikes vast background in PFAL and his hobknobbing with the best minds in neuroscience that he is the one called on a special mission?
Okay reading thru this I find it hard to believe the lack of empathy. Mike is always looking to run down anyone who went thru the Corps as a problem. Actually, I don't find it hard t believe. The window washer philosopher is most likely on autism spectrum but without the idiot savante angle.
He has this delusional view that the creator and initiator of the Corps program somehow was not involved in every aspect of it as are current leaders.
No sitting around stuffing your head with PFAL collateral material which amounts to sermon notes by Rhoda for 10 years does not produce anything different in believing than stuffing your head with them for 1 year.
You also are judging penworks every single chapter. I know you don't want to accept TWI has had sketchy research since the start. Maybe you're really just struggling with yourself here not intending to be a complete a hole.
What ???
Do you mean, I have no empathy for my readers because, because I let the text get too long ???
Or do you mean empathy for you and GreaseSpotters?
My post to Nathan_Jr yesterday, addresses that issue of empathy.
But I’d like to add this question: could you please indicate the places in my post where you thought it should contain empathy?I was trying to be brief in a lot of sections. Moving fast through a story can look harsher than intended. If you point out the empathy vacuums, maybe I can “fill” them in some way.
Here’s what I said on empathy there:
I empathize with GreseSpotters, because I saw and felt several previews of GreaseSpot sentiments years before it started. I had private previews of a lot of the “horror movies” signaled the need for the founding of WayDale and GSC.
I started grappling with the mission of the Research Department in the later 1970s.
In July 1987 Ralph D visited SD and did a 2 day meeting, with several meetings per day. I attended Day 2 for several hours. It was almost identical to everything that goes on today here at GreaseSpot, only it was LIVE, no re-takes, no editing, no protection from shoving and fists in heated discussions !!!
I was absolutely sickened when I got my first viewing of the Schoenheit Paper there. Ralph gave me a thick copy. I had heard “all” about it from local loyalist Corps, that its devil spirits would get a reader believing in the Trinity in no time.But at that LIVE GreaseSpot meeting in 1987 I could see that it was almost identical to my in-house twig research on sex in 1980 !!!
That made me as bitter as anyone here !
There was more in that post to Nathan_Jr that will pertain to your comments to me here.I include it below.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Chockful wrote:
Mike is always looking to run down anyone who went thru the Corps as a problem.
Not so. I frequently post the opposite, that there was good that came from the Corps program. It certainly also had its faults.
I have evolved to the attitude when I meet a Corps person that I am not going to hold that against them one bit at all. But the minute they start demanding respect for having a greater commitment that mine, that
I think it was only a percent that went bad in their behavior, not so much in their hearts. I’ll say it again: some of good came out of the Corps as a whole, and a majority of the individuals who went through I am thankful for. But as you went up the power structure, lots of leaders went in lots of directions. I’d love to think that the Corps Nazi behavior I saw was them going through a phase in their life, and that they eventually outgrew it. Heck, they’ve had up to 38 years now.
*/*/*/*/*/*
Chockful wrote:
Actually, I don't find it hard t believe. The window washer philosopher is most likely on autism spectrum but without the idiot savante angle.
*LoL !You may have just insulted a sizeable percentage of the read-only audience out there.[ Hi, Mom! ]
Oops! Not to say she’s on the spectrum.LoL.
But seriously folks, all ad hominems aside, this is a delicate subject.
Pop psychologists in the media these days really pump broadening that spectrum, autism for all is their marketing cry,. And the shifting sands of nomenclature might help them in the process.Didn’t they kinda of re-name it Asberger’s Disease or something like that?
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Chockful wrote:
He has this delusional viewthat the creator and initiator of the Corps program somehow was not involved in every aspect of it as are current leaders.
??? I thought I dispended with that DELUSION of yours about me having a delusional view of VPW as perfect and acceptable in every way. Go back and
I posted the other day, I understand a prophet lacking honor in his own area and with his own kin, paraphrasing Jesus.Why did he say that?
How’s come a genuine prophet (a speaker for God) doesn’t get recognized as a prophet?
It is because those people who are closest to him know all his shortcomings. The closer the relationship, the more a person’s sin is seen. There is only one exception to this rule.
In looking back on my life, from late 1971 to 1982, my respect grew from zero to great thankfulness for the wonderful package I had received. But when I worked at HQ my respect dips in hindsight. After I left HQ my respect grew again. I’ve been on a roller coaster on this.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Chockful wrote:
No sitting around stuffing your head with PFAL collateral material which amounts to sermon notes by Rhoda for 10 years does not produce anything different in believing than stuffing your head with them for 1 year.
(1) Learning anything from the collaterals would mean a lot of time working the keys taught in the Bible. So this sentence totally misrepresents what we were taught.
(2) Rhoda has pnemua hagion, the same connection VPW had. Paul, Timothy and Silas all worked on the Thessalonian Epistles. The Bible was a team effort, oftentimes, and similarly for the collaterals.
Another error on your part here is you seem to be unaware of the step in the process where the audio transcript was re-worked by VPW and possibly another person.
I personally spent hours on this topic interviewing VPW’s editors Karen Martin, J.Fred Wilson, David Craley, and Milford Bowen.I did this with some in the 197os, face-to-face, and in the 2000s by telephone and e-mail. The process of producing the collaterals and the magazine articles was far more intensive than your gross mischaracterization.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Chockful wrote:
You also are judging penworks every single chapter. I know you don't want to accept TWI has had sketchy research since the start. Maybe you're really just struggling with yourself here not intending to be a complete a hole.
.I mentioned above, and in other places that I started hearing things about the Research Department that bothered me more and more. My first red flag was in 1978, and I posted on it a week ago.
After that I would hear on the weekly SNT tapes an odd remark by VPW to the effect that “… we finally found a manuscript that verifies what I was expecting.”
WHAT?That didn’t sound right! What the heck?That don’t sound like research to me?!
Then another SNT would come out and he would say “Someday we will find a manuscript that verify what other sections of theWord indicate the original has to say.”Again, I would shake my head and ask myself did I hear that right? I’d rewind it and be astounded that I did hear it right.This happened at least 3 times, maybe more over the years listening to tapes.
The corker that came last REALLY surprised me, and it sounded like cheating and nothing else. I was flabbergasted!He said (almost exact quote) “We probably will never find a manuscript for this, but I know from my spiritual perspective that the original has to say…”That one I’ll never forget.I was in one of my low points on my Respect Roller Coaster towards VPW when I heard that one. It was around here that I was looking for the answers back in the hippie culture more than in the collaterals or from the research department.
I wrote about the lowest point in my VPW respect in that response to Nathan_Jr.Here is what I said:
I was NOT touting the collaterals at all back then. I was an A.V. man and what mattered to me was the PFAL'68 video. I had privately come to the conclusion that VPW went through some kind of downward spiral, or downward spasm after LCM came in.
I had started tuning out VPW a few years earlier, when I heard his voice on an SNT around Dec 1982, and could tell he had a stroke. I was also not happy with him for the Corps, by the time of Ralph's meeting in 1987.
The Corps were a problem for me in the early 80s, but the secrecy and strongarming they did after the 1986 POP was the end of my respect, for what I called by then "Wierwille's Folly."
What I heard there from Ralph sunk my respect for VPW the man, not just his Corps.
For the next 10 years I had some wild adventures.I still thought the 1968 video class video was gold, but that VPW had slipped from his diligence after the filming. I likened it to what happens to some Olympic Gold Winners in the years after reaching their gold pinnacle. I knew that kind of thing happened to Solomon.
During that decade of time, 1987 to 1998, I went up and down on my memories and conversations about VPW.I was often thankful for his ministry that made the class, but thought sometime afterwards he went from best to good, and then much lower.During that 10 years I attended all of John Lynn’s meetings. He came once a year after Ralph, until 1998.That was the time I discovered that I had missed a lot that was in the collaterals.
So, I can empathize with everyone here in their disappointment with VPW and TWI.I just happened to go through it all earlier, and was then miraculously handed the solution in 1998.
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Twinky
Mike. Get this clear. I hate no-one. I hate ABUSE. Agape thinks no evil? Right. Agape calls evil out!! And I'm calling out the abuse that occurred and likely still occurs. That's not hate
chockfull
Okay reading thru this I find it hard to believe the lack of empathy. Mike is always looking to run down anyone who went thru the Corps as a problem. Actually, I don't find it hard t believe. The w
OldSkool
Correct! But a Christian organization that is all about material abundance is not a Christian orginazation at all because that's not what Christianity is about and its shameful to even attach Christ n
OldSkool
It's not that they are posting it's what they are posting....they are bringing up so many things TWI wants buried....put it this way...you want those two representing you online?...
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Bolshevik
Lol
I don't even know what they're saying most of the time.
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Nathan_Jr
I don't think anyone knows...
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So_crates
I can see that. The last thing The Way would want is someone causing their checkered past to be resurrected every other post.
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chockfull
TWI hasn’t pitched in because the only outside voice on their board is their lawyers.
What do you think lawyers are going to advise?
1. Engage on internet
2. Absolutely do not under any circumstance engage on internet
It goes right along with
1. Talk to police
2. Never talk to the police
No attorney ever in the lifetime of lawsuits is ever going to advise path #1
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Bolshevik
"Cast not your pearls before swine"
"Truth needs no defense"
AFAIK, they always were against debate. The internet would be no different?
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chockfull
So miracle man can we still call you Mike? Or does it need to be “GS Answer” ?
Who here said they need a solution? And what was the problem again? Other than how to redefine darkness light?
My solution is easy. Now that I’ve grown up I’ve put off cult anti Christ logic and worshipping idols and like to be inclusive with the entire body of Christ not being constrained by the bondage of TWI false doctrine.
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Rocky
Of course you wonder in that direction. It's called rationalization.
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmmph
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OldSkool
They dont care.
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Nathan_Jr
Slowly
superstardom
ECN
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johniam
quote: Lately, I’ve wondered: Is TWI embarrassed that Mike and Johniam are defenders of the cult? Why hasn’t TWI tried to stop the crazy train?
Are you stoned, or just retarded? Didn't you read my post where I said I chose my marriage above the ministry that taught me the word? I also said that IMO they made shipwreck of their faith. You call that "defenders of the cult"??? What are they going to do to stop me??? Order a hit??? Take another prozak!!!
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OldSkool
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Nathan_Jr
No. But that would be nice right about now.
First I've ever been accused of that. No. I don't think so.
Taught? The word? According to victor, the huckster?
Yeah. Defending the huckster is defending the foundation of the cult.
I don't know. Victor learned where he could, including from L. Ron Hubbard. Who knows?
I'd have to take the first to take another.
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johniam
btw I posted a teaching in the open forum on year2027's thread called a fool. You want something else to make fun of? Check it out.
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Nathan_Jr
That's how we all got snared into his mess in the first place. No thanks.
But that thread is a good place to bury something. Thanks.
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johniam
quote: Are you stoned, or retarded?
Retarded! I'm not posting against flesh and blood, am I?
btw I posted a teaching in the open forum on year2027's thread called a fool. You want something else to make fun of? C
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OldSkool
Sure.
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Nathan_Jr
Four crucified retarded or cocks crowing retarded?
or, or, OR...
....music coordinator retarded?
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So_crates
I know one thing: it's a teaching that'll never get read, that is unless someone wants to spend 10 minutes scrolling past the KJV introduction.
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Rocky
And even if they did... oh, come on... how could they possibly make sense of what Mike rambles on about anyway?
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Rocky
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chockfull
You mean you doubt that with all of Mikes vast background in PFAL and his hobknobbing with the best minds in neuroscience that he is the one called on a special mission?
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Mike
What ???
Do you mean, I have no empathy for my readers because, because I let the text get too long ???
Or do you mean empathy for you and GreaseSpotters?
My post to Nathan_Jr yesterday, addresses that issue of empathy.
But I’d like to add this question: could you please indicate the places in my post where you thought it should contain empathy? I was trying to be brief in a lot of sections. Moving fast through a story can look harsher than intended. If you point out the empathy vacuums, maybe I can “fill” them in some way.
Here’s what I said on empathy there:
I empathize with GreseSpotters, because I saw and felt several previews of GreaseSpot sentiments years before it started. I had private previews of a lot of the “horror movies” signaled the need for the founding of WayDale and GSC.
I started grappling with the mission of the Research Department in the later 1970s.
In July 1987 Ralph D visited SD and did a 2 day meeting, with several meetings per day. I attended Day 2 for several hours. It was almost identical to everything that goes on today here at GreaseSpot, only it was LIVE, no re-takes, no editing, no protection from shoving and fists in heated discussions !!!
I was absolutely sickened when I got my first viewing of the Schoenheit Paper there. Ralph gave me a thick copy. I had heard “all” about it from local loyalist Corps, that its devil spirits would get a reader believing in the Trinity in no time. But at that LIVE GreaseSpot meeting in 1987 I could see that it was almost identical to my in-house twig research on sex in 1980 !!!
That made me as bitter as anyone here !
There was more in that post to Nathan_Jr that will pertain to your comments to me here. I include it below.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Chockful wrote:
Mike is always looking to run down anyone who went thru the Corps as a problem.
Not so. I frequently post the opposite, that there was good that came from the Corps program. It certainly also had its faults.
I have evolved to the attitude when I meet a Corps person that I am not going to hold that against them one bit at all. But the minute they start demanding respect for having a greater commitment that mine, that
I think it was only a percent that went bad in their behavior, not so much in their hearts. I’ll say it again: some of good came out of the Corps as a whole, and a majority of the individuals who went through I am thankful for. But as you went up the power structure, lots of leaders went in lots of directions. I’d love to think that the Corps Nazi behavior I saw was them going through a phase in their life, and that they eventually outgrew it. Heck, they’ve had up to 38 years now.
*/*/*/*/*/*
Chockful wrote:
Actually, I don't find it hard t believe. The window washer philosopher is most likely on autism spectrum but without the idiot savante angle.
*LoL ! You may have just insulted a sizeable percentage of the read-only audience out there. [ Hi, Mom! ]
Oops! Not to say she’s on the spectrum. LoL.
But seriously folks, all ad hominems aside, this is a delicate subject.
Pop psychologists in the media these days really pump broadening that spectrum, autism for all is their marketing cry,. And the shifting sands of nomenclature might help them in the process. Didn’t they kinda of re-name it Asberger’s Disease or something like that?
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Chockful wrote:
He has this delusional view that the creator and initiator of the Corps program somehow was not involved in every aspect of it as are current leaders.
??? I thought I dispended with that DELUSION of yours about me having a delusional view of VPW as perfect and acceptable in every way. Go back and
I posted the other day, I understand a prophet lacking honor in his own area and with his own kin, paraphrasing Jesus. Why did he say that?
How’s come a genuine prophet (a speaker for God) doesn’t get recognized as a prophet?
It is because those people who are closest to him know all his shortcomings. The closer the relationship, the more a person’s sin is seen. There is only one exception to this rule.
In looking back on my life, from late 1971 to 1982, my respect grew from zero to great thankfulness for the wonderful package I had received. But when I worked at HQ my respect dips in hindsight. After I left HQ my respect grew again. I’ve been on a roller coaster on this.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Chockful wrote:
No sitting around stuffing your head with PFAL collateral material which amounts to sermon notes by Rhoda for 10 years does not produce anything different in believing than stuffing your head with them for 1 year.
(1) Learning anything from the collaterals would mean a lot of time working the keys taught in the Bible. So this sentence totally misrepresents what we were taught.
(2) Rhoda has pnemua hagion, the same connection VPW had. Paul, Timothy and Silas all worked on the Thessalonian Epistles. The Bible was a team effort, oftentimes, and similarly for the collaterals.
Another error on your part here is you seem to be unaware of the step in the process where the audio transcript was re-worked by VPW and possibly another person.
I personally spent hours on this topic interviewing VPW’s editors Karen Martin, J.Fred Wilson, David Craley, and Milford Bowen. I did this with some in the 197os, face-to-face, and in the 2000s by telephone and e-mail. The process of producing the collaterals and the magazine articles was far more intensive than your gross mischaracterization.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Chockful wrote:
You also are judging penworks every single chapter. I know you don't want to accept TWI has had sketchy research since the start. Maybe you're really just struggling with yourself here not intending to be a complete a hole.
.I mentioned above, and in other places that I started hearing things about the Research Department that bothered me more and more. My first red flag was in 1978, and I posted on it a week ago.
After that I would hear on the weekly SNT tapes an odd remark by VPW to the effect that “… we finally found a manuscript that verifies what I was expecting.”
WHAT? That didn’t sound right! What the heck? That don’t sound like research to me?!
Then another SNT would come out and he would say “Someday we will find a manuscript that verify what other sections of the Word indicate the original has to say.” Again, I would shake my head and ask myself did I hear that right? I’d rewind it and be astounded that I did hear it right. This happened at least 3 times, maybe more over the years listening to tapes.
The corker that came last REALLY surprised me, and it sounded like cheating and nothing else. I was flabbergasted! He said (almost exact quote) “We probably will never find a manuscript for this, but I know from my spiritual perspective that the original has to say…” That one I’ll never forget. I was in one of my low points on my Respect Roller Coaster towards VPW when I heard that one. It was around here that I was looking for the answers back in the hippie culture more than in the collaterals or from the research department.
I wrote about the lowest point in my VPW respect in that response to Nathan_Jr. Here is what I said:
I was NOT touting the collaterals at all back then. I was an A.V. man and what mattered to me was the PFAL'68 video. I had privately come to the conclusion that VPW went through some kind of downward spiral, or downward spasm after LCM came in.
I had started tuning out VPW a few years earlier, when I heard his voice on an SNT around Dec 1982, and could tell he had a stroke. I was also not happy with him for the Corps, by the time of Ralph's meeting in 1987.
The Corps were a problem for me in the early 80s, but the secrecy and strongarming they did after the 1986 POP was the end of my respect, for what I called by then "Wierwille's Folly."
What I heard there from Ralph sunk my respect for VPW the man, not just his Corps.
For the next 10 years I had some wild adventures. I still thought the 1968 video class video was gold, but that VPW had slipped from his diligence after the filming. I likened it to what happens to some Olympic Gold Winners in the years after reaching their gold pinnacle. I knew that kind of thing happened to Solomon.
During that decade of time, 1987 to 1998, I went up and down on my memories and conversations about VPW. I was often thankful for his ministry that made the class, but thought sometime afterwards he went from best to good, and then much lower. During that 10 years I attended all of John Lynn’s meetings. He came once a year after Ralph, until 1998. That was the time I discovered that I had missed a lot that was in the collaterals.
So, I can empathize with everyone here in their disappointment with VPW and TWI. I just happened to go through it all earlier, and was then miraculously handed the solution in 1998.
I come in peace, and I always did.
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