Dancing Gumby? The renewed mind is the key, moonwalking, viral video with 170M views, dancing Gumby boy?
WTAF is this??
.... you don't have to answer
Oh...stupid @$$ name for a class where the students present some talent/skill they have...kinda like stepford show and tell...only totally different..mogashontadishu.
I think these ECNs that Mike goes on about must mean EGREGIOUS COUNTERFEIT NOTICES. Where he highlights one egregious counterfeit doctrine and announces its replacement (which is probably some other egregious counterfeit).
I think these ECNs that Mike goes on about must mean EGREGIOUS COUNTERFEIT NOTICES. Where he highlights one egregious counterfeit doctrine and announces its replacement (which is probably some other egregious counterfeit).
Well, only if you take the sideways to the uppermost left, YABBADABBA structure approach to prov your postulate that hasnt been known since the first century!
No. What I am saying is that thetruth of the WORDwill make them free, and that theUGLY FACTS of the ministrywill heavily distract them from the truth.
I'm sure glad I didn't know about VPs sexcapades back in the day. You don't think this ever happens in mainstream churches??? Peoples' sins do not delete Christ's accomplishments. Adam's sin DID delete original paradise, but not in the grace administration. We're all going to be at the gathering and we'll get eternal rewards for anything we've done that pleased God; we won't get rewards for anything we've done that didn't please God. Only Jesus always did those things that please Him.
You don't think this ever happens in mainstream churches???
But I thought mainstream churches were all run by seed boys, so you are admitting that the way international is a mainstream church.
7 minutes ago, johniam said:
Peoples' sins do not delete Christ's accomplishments
Nobody ever said they did -- moot point.
7 minutes ago, johniam said:
Adam's sin DID delete original paradise, but not in the grace administration
So we are living in paradise restored, that is assuming administrations are real and we are in the grace one.
7 minutes ago, johniam said:
We're all going to be at the gathering and we'll get eternal rewards for anything we've done that pleased God; we won't get rewards for anything we've done that didn't please God. Only Jesus always did those things that please Him.
Ok. Now were subtly threatened with losing eternal rewards...mess with the way international and Jesus gonna get you at the bema.
No. What I am saying is that thetruth of the WORDwill make them free, and that theUGLY FACTS of the ministrywill heavily distract them from the truth.
I'm sure glad I didn't know about VPs sexcapades back in the day.
You're not the standard.
Not telling people about Saint Vic's "escapades" could lead to feelings of misrepresentation and being had when new people find out.
You want proof? How many people exited The Way when the found out about Saint Vic's hidden "escapades" the first time they were made known?
How would they find out? Internet.
1 hour ago, johniam said:
You don't think this ever happens in mainstream churches???
Just because it happen in main street churches doesn't make it right.
1 hour ago, johniam said:
Peoples' sins do not delete Christ's accomplishments. Adam's sin DID delete original paradise, but not in the grace administration.
Read the verse in Romans where it talks of living in din that grace may abound. God forbid, Paul answers.
1 hour ago, johniam said:
We're all going to be at the gathering and we'll get eternal rewards for anything we've done that pleased God; we won't get rewards for anything we've done that didn't please God. Only Jesus always did those things that please Him.
And what makes you think your pleasing God by whitewashing the actions of an evil man? You think that'll cost you a thing or two at the bema? After all, God is all about truth, right?
No. What I am saying is that thetruth of the WORDwill make them free, and that theUGLY FACTS of the ministrywill heavily distract them from the truth.
I'm sure glad I didn't know about VPs sexcapades back in the day. You don't think this ever happens in mainstream churches??? Peoples' sins do not delete Christ's accomplishments. Adam's sin DID delete original paradise, but not in the grace administration. We're all going to be at the gathering and we'll get eternal rewards for anything we've done that pleased God; we won't get rewards for anything we've done that didn't please God. Only Jesus always did those things that please Him.
I seem to remember a lot of "The Word is the Ministry and The Ministry is The Word" chest thumping.
And "Let not The Ministry be blamed"
(And The Word takes the place of the absent Christ)
Why would you equate the greatest commandment simplification with sin simplification?
Here is a specific example of the GREAT simplification PFAL gave us in the first 12 minutes of the class, that I witnessed first hand.
In the early 70s I was the A.V. man for our branch. I’d drive to Rye to get the film class, projector, and screen for each class we ran.One time I was there they gave me, along with those materials, a special 16 mm film-loop projector, fitted into a standard size suitcase. A film-loop is just like an 8-Track tape, in that you never have to re-wind it; it just plays over and over. But one limitation is they are real short. This suitcase had a screen when opened up, and a short piece of PFAL Session One on it's film-loop cartridge. I was like an old fashioned VHS or Beta player with a screen.
They told me there at Limb that I could borrow it for the 3 weeks we had the big-reel class. Boy oh BOY!I had a lot of fun with that. I took it to friends and family whenever I could. One time I set it up in a Duncan Donuts I often witnessed at, for the waitresses.
One day I took the machine to the house of a girl in our twig who wanted to take the class, but whose parents were super Roman Catholic, and were very suspicious of this young people’s Protestant fellowship.I played the first 12 minutes of the class for her father to see what she wanted to sign up for.
I watched the dad's face as it approached the end, so I could jump in and explain things. But it finished with the greatest commandment teaching, and he beat me to the punch. He jumped up and was VERY impressed.
He said that sure settles the whole mortal sin versus venial sin debates we Catholics get dragged into so often! He was actually happy about it, and did all the expounding before I had the chance. She took the class.
I had the exact same impression of this GRAND SIMPLIFICATION when I read the PFAL book the first time, months before my first class.
*/*/*/*/*/*
It means in God's eyes there are no Saint Goodygoody types of humans anywhere to be found. We all are habitually guilty of the greatest sin, so there is no spiritual elite among us.
WE humans strongly recognize many grades of sin, though, but why?
Thinking through the answer to that is best done remembering we have hearts that are desperately evil; evil above all things, according to Paul in Romans.
It simplifies the processing we must go through, as we sort out who the bad guys are and who the good guys are.
In that process, we try to sort things out in ways that PLEASE US, and not so we can please God. In God's eyes we all fall short of the glory of God, and are dead in sins.
It's good to keep in mind, that our grading of sins is for practical, 5-senses, natural reasons, and not for spiritual reasons.
That is why godless judicial systems, flawed as they are, are still valid institutions for sorting out the grades of "sin" and the appropriate punishments.
Here is a specific example of the GREAT simplification PFAL gave us in the first 12 minutes of the class, that I witnessed first hand.
Not answering the question Nate asked you.
11 minutes ago, Mike said:
In the early 70s I was the A.V. man for our branch. I’d drive to Rye to get the film class, projector, and screen for each class we ran.One time I was there they gave me, along with those materials, a special 16 mm film-loop projector, fitted into a standard size suitcase. A film-loop is just like an 8-Track tape, in that you never have to re-wind it; it just plays over and over. But one limitation is they are real short. This suitcase had a screen when opened up, and a short piece of PFAL Session One on it's film-loop cartridge. I was like an old fashioned VHS or Beta player with a screen.
They told me there at Limb that I could borrow it for the 3 weeks we had the big-reel class. Boy oh BOY!I had a lot of fun with that. I took it to friends and family whenever I could. One time I set it up in a Duncan Donuts I often witnessed at, for the waitresses.
One day I took the machine to the house of a girl in our twig who wanted to take the class, but whose parents were super Roman Catholic, and were very suspicious of this young people’s Protestant fellowship.I played the first 12 minutes of the class for her father to see what she wanted to sign up for.
I watched the dad's face as it approached the end, so I could jump in and explain things. But it finished with the greatest commandment teaching, and he beat me to the punch. He jumped up and was VERY impressed.
He said that sure settles the whole mortal sin versus venial sin debates we Catholics get dragged into so often! He was actually happy about it, and did all the expounding before I had the chance. She took the class.
Waitress, can I get a table closer to the answer of Nate's question?
11 minutes ago, Mike said:
I had the exact same impression of this GRAND SIMPLIFICATION when I read the PFAL book the first time, months before my first class.
And we should care why? You still haven't answered Nate's question.
11 minutes ago, Mike said:
*/*/*/*/*/*
It means in God's eyes there are no Saint Goodygoody types of humans anywhere to be found. We all are habitually guilty of the greatest sin, so there is no spiritual elite among us.
WE humans strongly recognize many grades of sin, though, but why?
Thinking through the answer to that is best done remembering we have hearts that are desperately evil; evil above all things, according to Paul in Romans.
It simplifies the processing we must go through, as we sort out who the bad guys are and who the good guys are.
In that process, we try to sort things out in ways that PLEASE US, and not so we can please God. In God's eyes we all fall short of the glory of God, and are dead in sins.
It's good to keep in mind, that our grading of sins is for practical, 5-senses, natural reasons, and not for spiritual reasons.
That is why godless judicial systems, flawed as they are, are still valid institutions for sorting out the grades of "sin" and the appropriate punishments.
Still waiting for the answer to Nate's question.
So far this is a shining example of The Way's bait and switch tactics. You set up the question, never answer it, and the pontificate on something entirely different.
I seem to remember a lot of "The Word is the Ministry and The Ministry is The Word" chest thumping.
And "Let not The Ministry be blamed"
(And The Word takes the place of the absent Christ)
Forgive me if I have no idea what you just said.
I seem to remember the same, and this chest thumping persists today.
The logic says this "research" ministry founded by a huckster, and no other, takes the place of the absent Christ. This TWI ministry alone holds the Truth. This is "spiritual elitism" and it is fundamental to the indoctrination, the conditioning. All of this is a lie.
If the ministry be not blamed, let it be blameless.
The “old wineskin” doctrine from what I heard in the Way was always used in conjunction with “the present truth”.
So they would waffle back and forth between the KoolAid snowstorm promise and whatever current class is being filmed with their $2M broadcast cameras.
The leaders would say that TWI 2,3,4 is now the present truth.
Thus supposedly distancing themselves from “the past truth?”
In my experience “truth” only changes that much when someone is fibbing a lot.
Thanks. That helps. "Present truth" is a term pretty new to me, and knowing it is connected with the wineskins definitely helps.
*/*/*/*
You wrote:
"In my experience 'truth' only changes that much when someone is fibbing a lot."
I agree that truth changing like that is crazy. Now the APPLICATIONS of some eternal truths may change some.... I guess.
The big thing that said "red flag" to me, was that if truth itself changes with the calendar, what does say about the VERY old truths in the Bible ???
I wonder if others had that suspicion?
From what I see so far, TWI-4 has gone back to the original class, just in abbreviated form, never contradicting PFAL'68, and adding nothing that I noticed.
Because some of the missing parts are crucial for more mature students, I look at it as a good introduction to PFAL'68.
The parts missing in PFAL-T are still in the PFAL book and RHST.
I had heard several times that the PFAL book was declared old wineskin at one time, but I don't know by whom or when.
I seem to remember the same, and this chest thumping persists today.
The logic says this "research" ministry founded by a huckster, and no other, takes the place of the absent Christ. This TWI ministry alone holds the Truth. This is "spiritual elitism" and it is fundamental to the indoctrination, the conditioning. All of this is a lie.
If the ministry be not blamed, let it be blameless.
I am writing an essay on "what is a ministry" and I get into how I have seen "the ministry" become an idol to some people, just like VPW became an idol for many.
This essay is being written to be read by TWI leadership, so it has a gentle tone. I have sent early rough drafts of the beginning to a few already, and we are slowly discussing it.
No. What I am saying is that thetruth of the WORDwill make them free, and that theUGLY FACTS of the ministrywill heavily distract them from the truth.
I'm sure glad I didn't know about VPs sexcapades back in the day. You don't think this ever happens in mainstream churches??? Peoples' sins do not delete Christ's accomplishments. Adam's sin DID delete original paradise, but not in the grace administration. We're all going to be at the gathering and we'll get eternal rewards for anything we've done that pleased God; we won't get rewards for anything we've done that didn't please God. Only Jesus always did those things that please Him.
BRAVO !!!
On a lesser topic, but similarly, I'm sure glad they didn't put distracting footnotes and citations in the early collaterals.
I was in the class to learn about God, not take a University class.
Here is a specific example of the GREAT simplification PFAL gave us in the first 12 minutes of the class, that I witnessed first hand.
In the early 70s I was the A.V. man for our branch. I’d drive to Rye to get the film class, projector, and screen for each class we ran.One time I was there they gave me, along with those materials, a special 16 mm film-loop projector, fitted into a standard size suitcase. A film-loop is just like an 8-Track tape, in that you never have to re-wind it; it just plays over and over. But one limitation is they are real short. This suitcase had a screen when opened up, and a short piece of PFAL Session One on it's film-loop cartridge. I was like an old fashioned VHS or Beta player with a screen.
They told me there at Limb that I could borrow it for the 3 weeks we had the big-reel class. Boy oh BOY!I had a lot of fun with that. I took it to friends and family whenever I could. One time I set it up in a Duncan Donuts I often witnessed at, for the waitresses.
One day I took the machine to the house of a girl in our twig who wanted to take the class, but whose parents were super Roman Catholic, and were very suspicious of this young people’s Protestant fellowship.I played the first 12 minutes of the class for her father to see what she wanted to sign up for.
I watched the dad's face as it approached the end, so I could jump in and explain things. But it finished with the greatest commandment teaching, and he beat me to the punch. He jumped up and was VERY impressed.
He said that sure settles the whole mortal sin versus venial sin debates we Catholics get dragged into so often! He was actually happy about it, and did all the expounding before I had the chance. She took the class.
I had the exact same impression of this GRAND SIMPLIFICATION when I read the PFAL book the first time, months before my first class.
*/*/*/*/*/*
It means in God's eyes there are no Saint Goodygoody types of humans anywhere to be found. We all are habitually guilty of the greatest sin, so there is no spiritual elite among us.
WE humans strongly recognize many grades of sin, though, but why?
Thinking through the answer to that is best done remembering we have hearts that are desperately evil; evil above all things, according to Paul in Romans.
It simplifies the processing we must go through, as we sort out who the bad guys are and who the good guys are.
In that process, we try to sort things out in ways that PLEASE US, and not so we can please God. In God's eyes we all fall short of the glory of God, and are dead in sins.
It's good to keep in mind, that our grading of sins is for practical, 5-senses, natural reasons, and not for spiritual reasons.
That is why godless judicial systems, flawed as they are, are still valid institutions for sorting out the grades of "sin" and the appropriate punishments.
We're talking past each other, again. When you say greatest commandment, I think of Jesus's explaining of the greatest commandment: love God; and like it, love your neighbor as yourself.
What you are talking about, I understand, but please know, your word choice can be confusing for those of us keeping it simple. Please consider an alternate wording of the greatest commandment simplification. Because, what you are talking about is NOT the greatest commandment as revealed by Christ. Maybe sin simplification would be more throughly effectual.
I never, ever, believed there were any saint goodydoody types to be found. And I never heard nor considered the guilt trip of being habitually guilty of the greatest sin. That guilt trip was first taught to me and laid on me in the class.
My heart isn't desperately evil. Paul wasn't accurate about EVERYTHING.
I never heard the guilt trip of falling short of the glory of God, and was never taught I was dead in sins until I took the class. You can't tell me I live my life focused only on my pleasure and not focused on God. You, nor victor, nor the priestly class, nor the clergy, nor Saul of Tarsus, knows anything about me. This is religious, gaslighting dogma that I reject.
We can agree to disagree on your religious, doctrinal dogmatism.
Jesus summarized the entire Jewish law with love - love for God and love for others . He did NOT simplify the law. There is a difference!
Jesus spoke of the first and great commandment and the second is like unto it - to love God and to love neighbor - He said the entire law and the prophets hang on that. That is a summary- He indicated all prohibitions to sin - i.e., to NOT commit adultery, to NOT lie, to NOT steal, etc., He recapitulated all the main points of the law showing how they all relate to loving God and neighbor.
In PFAL wierwille taught it WRONG! He simplified it - he said Jesus reduced all the law down to just 2 commandments. To reduce or simplify is to eliminate or lessen components. Knowing about wierwille’s moral depravity, it makes perfect sense he would like to blur boundaries and obfuscate what is right and wrong. There’s no specifics…it’s left up to the individual to determine what is right and wrong….That’s how he could commit unconscionable acts and rationalize sin out of it by saying “anything done in the love of God is okay”
Jesus didn’t teach THAT! He summarized! It’s like He drew a big umbrella over all the specific prohibitions and said the love for God and others are the prime directives - that love covers every scenario! If you love God and others you should not commit adultery, you should not lie, steal, etc. Love was the basis for the law!
The summary does not eliminate any components - it merely gives the big picture of how we conduct our lives should always reflect loving God and others.
Jesus summarized the entire Jewish law with love - love for God and love for others . He did NOT simplify the law. There is a difference!
Jesus spoke of the first and great commandment and the second is like unto it - to love God and to love neighbor - He said the entire law and the prophets hang on that. That is a summary- He indicated all prohibitions to sin - i.e., to NOT commit adultery, to NOT lie, to NOT steal, etc., He recapitulated all the main points of the law showing how they all relate to loving God and neighbor.
In PFAL wierwille taught it WRONG! He simplified it - he said Jesus reduced all the law down to just 2 commandments. To reduce or simplify is to eliminate or lessen components. Knowing about wierwille’s moral depravity, it makes perfect sense he would like to blur boundaries and obfuscate what is right and wrong. There’s no specifics…it’s left up to the individual to determine what is right and wrong….That’s how he could commit unconscionable acts and rationalize sin out of it by saying “anything done in the love of God is okay”
Jesus didn’t teach THAT! He summarized! It’s like He drew a big umbrella over all the specific prohibitions and said the love for God and others are the prime directives. If you love God and others you should not commit adultery, you should not lie, steal, etc. Love was the basis for the law!
The summary does not eliminate any components - it merely gives the big picture of how we conduct our lives should always reflect loving God and others.
You want hard hearts? Look to the ministry. They know whitewashing Saint Vic's "escapades" is wrong, but they still insist on doing it.
Their business model has an internal conflict, best I can see, and that means it is a difficult and messy process to resolve lots of these matters.
On one hand it is a love based spiritual family, and family matters like this MUST be resolved. When the parents have dirty secrets in their past, telling their very young children about them may not be good for the children's welfare.
But SURELY as the the children age and mature, those secrets better be told in a calm, loving atmosphere at home by a certain time. Neglecting disclosure at that time would VERY BAD for the older children's welfare, because they will probably find disclosure out in the cold cruel world sooner or later.
On the other hand, and in great opposition to the loving family hand, TWI is a marketing corporation. In marketing, ugly secrets of the company or product are NEVER willingly disclosed, and ALWAYS shoved under the rug, if possible.
It is also the case that personal ego slows down the process for those who are even remotely connected to (like by having first-hand knowledge of) the ugly secrets. Loss of stature is a fear that ruins many men's ministries.
I am seriously considering the possibility that the solution to this is to dissolve the corporation, and split up the two opposing functions into two new, separate corporations. This is a new idea and I'd appreciate help brainstorming this.
Also in the works is an essay that the Way Tree is over. It was only supposed to be temporary, the great centralization of everything it teaches.
Especially egregious is the notion of God's revelation exclusively going through the Way Tree from the roots up. The centralized money thing is puny in my eyes compared to this major doctrinal abomination.
But this too is in the brainstorming stages, and (who knows?) I may want to eat those words someday. I am thinking out loud, searching for solutions. I need help here.
Their business model has an internal conflict, best I can see, and that means it is a difficult and messy process to resolve lots of these matters.
On one hand it is a love based spiritual family, and family matters like this MUST be resolved. When the parents have dirty secrets in their past, telling their very young children about them may not be good for the children's welfare.
Again you contradict yourself. Two weeks ago you were pontificating about how everything is already determined. So, by your own admission, what damage has been done has been done regardless.
7 minutes ago, Mike said:
But SURELY as the the children age and mature, those secrets better be told in a calm, loving atmosphere at home by a certain time. Neglecting disclosure at that time would VERY BAD for the older children's welfare, because they will probably find disclosure out in the cold cruel world sooner or later.
Any refusal for disclosure to any age would be bad. The longer you hold off, the longer people will get the feeling they've been had. People do have a right to know what they're signing up for.
7 minutes ago, Mike said:
On the other hand, and in great opposition to the loving family hand,
Loving family, know any more funny ones? The Way has always been a fly by night operation interested in one thing, how much of your money they could get. Stop giving them money (and I don't mean just joking about it, really do it) then you'll see how loving that family is.
7 minutes ago, Mike said:
TWI is a marketing corporation. In marketing, ugly secrets of the company or product are NEVER willingly disclosed, and ALWAYS shoved under the rug, if possible.
It is also the case that personal ego slows down the process for those who are even remotely connected to (like by having first-hand knowledge of) the ugly secrets. Loss of stature is a fear that ruins many men's ministries.
I am seriously considering the possibility that the solution to this is to dissolve the corporation, and split up the two opposing functions into two new, separate corporations. This is a new idea and I'd appreciate help brainstorming this.
Two new corporations that would, as you said above, insist on hiding the truth.
7 minutes ago, Mike said:
Also in the works is an essay that the Way Tree is over. It was only supposed to be temporary, the great centralization of everything it teaches.
Yah, I'm sure they're holding their breath waiting for that essay.
7 minutes ago, Mike said:
Especially egregious is the notion of God's revelation exclusively going through the Way Tree from the roots up. The centralized money thing is puny in my eyes compared to this major doctrinal abomination.
Okay.
7 minutes ago, Mike said:
But this too is in the brainstorming stages, and (who knows?) I may want to eat those words someday. I am thinking out loud, searching for solutions. I need help here.
I'm sure you will eat those words one day. The Way Wii never change, thinking it will is playing a mug's game.
The cornerstones of the foundational foundation are selling classes and literature. Everything else is propaganda bullshonta to serve that end. Victor was riding the wave of huckster evangelism when he launched this churchianity enterprise with dollar signs in his eyes.
Branham was doing the same, as were many others. He pivoted from a healing ministry to a teaching ministry, because there was more money in the teaching. And the Bible, and salvation, and "spirituality" were the hooks to reel in the dupes.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
97
75
128
134
Popular Days
Dec 19
128
Dec 22
99
Dec 17
99
Dec 21
94
Top Posters In This Topic
Mike 97 posts
chockfull 75 posts
OldSkool 128 posts
Nathan_Jr 134 posts
Popular Days
Dec 19 2022
128 posts
Dec 22 2022
99 posts
Dec 17 2022
99 posts
Dec 21 2022
94 posts
Popular Posts
Twinky
Mike. Get this clear. I hate no-one. I hate ABUSE. Agape thinks no evil? Right. Agape calls evil out!! And I'm calling out the abuse that occurred and likely still occurs. That's not hate
chockfull
Okay reading thru this I find it hard to believe the lack of empathy. Mike is always looking to run down anyone who went thru the Corps as a problem. Actually, I don't find it hard t believe. The w
OldSkool
Correct! But a Christian organization that is all about material abundance is not a Christian orginazation at all because that's not what Christianity is about and its shameful to even attach Christ n
OldSkool
Oh...stupid @$$ name for a class where the students present some talent/skill they have...kinda like stepford show and tell...only totally different..mogashontadishu.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
I think these ECNs that Mike goes on about must mean EGREGIOUS COUNTERFEIT NOTICES. Where he highlights one egregious counterfeit doctrine and announces its replacement (which is probably some other egregious counterfeit).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Well, only if you take the sideways to the uppermost left, YABBADABBA structure approach to prov your postulate that hasnt been known since the first century!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
quote:
No. What I am saying is that the truth of the WORD will make them free, and that the UGLY FACTS of the ministry will heavily distract them from the truth.
I'm sure glad I didn't know about VPs sexcapades back in the day. You don't think this ever happens in mainstream churches??? Peoples' sins do not delete Christ's accomplishments. Adam's sin DID delete original paradise, but not in the grace administration. We're all going to be at the gathering and we'll get eternal rewards for anything we've done that pleased God; we won't get rewards for anything we've done that didn't please God. Only Jesus always did those things that please Him.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
But I thought mainstream churches were all run by seed boys, so you are admitting that the way international is a mainstream church.
Nobody ever said they did -- moot point.
So we are living in paradise restored, that is assuming administrations are real and we are in the grace one.
Ok. Now were subtly threatened with losing eternal rewards...mess with the way international and Jesus gonna get you at the bema.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
You're not the standard.
Not telling people about Saint Vic's "escapades" could lead to feelings of misrepresentation and being had when new people find out.
You want proof? How many people exited The Way when the found out about Saint Vic's hidden "escapades" the first time they were made known?
How would they find out? Internet.
Just because it happen in main street churches doesn't make it right.
Read the verse in Romans where it talks of living in din that grace may abound. God forbid, Paul answers.
And what makes you think your pleasing God by whitewashing the actions of an evil man? You think that'll cost you a thing or two at the bema? After all, God is all about truth, right?
Edited by So_cratesLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
'So, if all your friends jumped off the bridge..."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Mmmmph
Edited by Nathan_JrLink to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
I seem to remember a lot of "The Word is the Ministry and The Ministry is The Word" chest thumping.
And "Let not The Ministry be blamed"
(And The Word takes the place of the absent Christ)
Forgive me if I have no idea what you just said.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Here is a specific example of the GREAT simplification PFAL gave us in the first 12 minutes of the class, that I witnessed first hand.
In the early 70s I was the A.V. man for our branch. I’d drive to Rye to get the film class, projector, and screen for each class we ran. One time I was there they gave me, along with those materials, a special 16 mm film-loop projector, fitted into a standard size suitcase. A film-loop is just like an 8-Track tape, in that you never have to re-wind it; it just plays over and over. But one limitation is they are real short. This suitcase had a screen when opened up, and a short piece of PFAL Session One on it's film-loop cartridge. I was like an old fashioned VHS or Beta player with a screen.
They told me there at Limb that I could borrow it for the 3 weeks we had the big-reel class. Boy oh BOY! I had a lot of fun with that. I took it to friends and family whenever I could. One time I set it up in a Duncan Donuts I often witnessed at, for the waitresses.
One day I took the machine to the house of a girl in our twig who wanted to take the class, but whose parents were super Roman Catholic, and were very suspicious of this young people’s Protestant fellowship. I played the first 12 minutes of the class for her father to see what she wanted to sign up for.
I watched the dad's face as it approached the end, so I could jump in and explain things. But it finished with the greatest commandment teaching, and he beat me to the punch. He jumped up and was VERY impressed.
He said that sure settles the whole mortal sin versus venial sin debates we Catholics get dragged into so often! He was actually happy about it, and did all the expounding before I had the chance. She took the class.
I had the exact same impression of this GRAND SIMPLIFICATION when I read the PFAL book the first time, months before my first class.
*/*/*/*/*/*
It means in God's eyes there are no Saint Goodygoody types of humans anywhere to be found. We all are habitually guilty of the greatest sin, so there is no spiritual elite among us.
WE humans strongly recognize many grades of sin, though, but why?
Thinking through the answer to that is best done remembering we have hearts that are desperately evil; evil above all things, according to Paul in Romans.
It simplifies the processing we must go through, as we sort out who the bad guys are and who the good guys are.
In that process, we try to sort things out in ways that PLEASE US, and not so we can please God. In God's eyes we all fall short of the glory of God, and are dead in sins.
It's good to keep in mind, that our grading of sins is for practical, 5-senses, natural reasons, and not for spiritual reasons.
That is why godless judicial systems, flawed as they are, are still valid institutions for sorting out the grades of "sin" and the appropriate punishments.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
Not answering the question Nate asked you.
Waitress, can I get a table closer to the answer of Nate's question?
And we should care why? You still haven't answered Nate's question.
Still waiting for the answer to Nate's question.
So far this is a shining example of The Way's bait and switch tactics. You set up the question, never answer it, and the pontificate on something entirely different.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
I seem to remember the same, and this chest thumping persists today.
The logic says this "research" ministry founded by a huckster, and no other, takes the place of the absent Christ. This TWI ministry alone holds the Truth. This is "spiritual elitism" and it is fundamental to the indoctrination, the conditioning. All of this is a lie.
If the ministry be not blamed, let it be blameless.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Thanks. That helps. "Present truth" is a term pretty new to me, and knowing it is connected with the wineskins definitely helps.
*/*/*/*
You wrote:
"In my experience 'truth' only changes that much when someone is fibbing a lot."
I agree that truth changing like that is crazy. Now the APPLICATIONS of some eternal truths may change some.... I guess.
The big thing that said "red flag" to me, was that if truth itself changes with the calendar, what does say about the VERY old truths in the Bible ???
I wonder if others had that suspicion?
From what I see so far, TWI-4 has gone back to the original class, just in abbreviated form, never contradicting PFAL'68, and adding nothing that I noticed.
Because some of the missing parts are crucial for more mature students, I look at it as a good introduction to PFAL'68.
The parts missing in PFAL-T are still in the PFAL book and RHST.
I had heard several times that the PFAL book was declared old wineskin at one time, but I don't know by whom or when.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
I am writing an essay on "what is a ministry" and I get into how I have seen "the ministry" become an idol to some people, just like VPW became an idol for many.
This essay is being written to be read by TWI leadership, so it has a gentle tone. I have sent early rough drafts of the beginning to a few already, and we are slowly discussing it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
BRAVO !!!
On a lesser topic, but similarly, I'm sure glad they didn't put distracting footnotes and citations in the early collaterals.
I was in the class to learn about God, not take a University class.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
WHO are you to even have the most minute awareness
of anyone's ability to accurately spot hardness of heart?"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
You want hard hearts? Look to the ministry. They know whitewashing Saint Vic's "escapades" is wrong, but they still insist on doing it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
We're talking past each other, again. When you say greatest commandment, I think of Jesus's explaining of the greatest commandment: love God; and like it, love your neighbor as yourself.
What you are talking about, I understand, but please know, your word choice can be confusing for those of us keeping it simple. Please consider an alternate wording of the greatest commandment simplification. Because, what you are talking about is NOT the greatest commandment as revealed by Christ. Maybe sin simplification would be more throughly effectual.
I never, ever, believed there were any saint goodydoody types to be found. And I never heard nor considered the guilt trip of being habitually guilty of the greatest sin. That guilt trip was first taught to me and laid on me in the class.
My heart isn't desperately evil. Paul wasn't accurate about EVERYTHING.
I never heard the guilt trip of falling short of the glory of God, and was never taught I was dead in sins until I took the class. You can't tell me I live my life focused only on my pleasure and not focused on God. You, nor victor, nor the priestly class, nor the clergy, nor Saul of Tarsus, knows anything about me. This is religious, gaslighting dogma that I reject.
We can agree to disagree on your religious, doctrinal dogmatism.
Edited by Nathan_JrLink to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Jesus summarized the entire Jewish law with love - love for God and love for others . He did NOT simplify the law. There is a difference!
Jesus spoke of the first and great commandment and the second is like unto it - to love God and to love neighbor - He said the entire law and the prophets hang on that. That is a summary- He indicated all prohibitions to sin - i.e., to NOT commit adultery, to NOT lie, to NOT steal, etc., He recapitulated all the main points of the law showing how they all relate to loving God and neighbor.
In PFAL wierwille taught it WRONG! He simplified it - he said Jesus reduced all the law down to just 2 commandments. To reduce or simplify is to eliminate or lessen components. Knowing about wierwille’s moral depravity, it makes perfect sense he would like to blur boundaries and obfuscate what is right and wrong. There’s no specifics…it’s left up to the individual to determine what is right and wrong….That’s how he could commit unconscionable acts and rationalize sin out of it by saying “anything done in the love of God is okay”
Jesus didn’t teach THAT! He summarized! It’s like He drew a big umbrella over all the specific prohibitions and said the love for God and others are the prime directives - that love covers every scenario! If you love God and others you should not commit adultery, you should not lie, steal, etc. Love was the basis for the law!
The summary does not eliminate any components - it merely gives the big picture of how we conduct our lives should always reflect loving God and others.
Edited by T-BoneTypos
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
So, the WORD is NOT the ministry? The ministry and victor paul wierwille would disagree.
The truth of the ministry, which is the WORD, according to the ministry, must include all the facts of the ministry to know the truth of it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Thank you
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Their business model has an internal conflict, best I can see, and that means it is a difficult and messy process to resolve lots of these matters.
On one hand it is a love based spiritual family, and family matters like this MUST be resolved. When the parents have dirty secrets in their past, telling their very young children about them may not be good for the children's welfare.
But SURELY as the the children age and mature, those secrets better be told in a calm, loving atmosphere at home by a certain time. Neglecting disclosure at that time would VERY BAD for the older children's welfare, because they will probably find disclosure out in the cold cruel world sooner or later.
On the other hand, and in great opposition to the loving family hand, TWI is a marketing corporation. In marketing, ugly secrets of the company or product are NEVER willingly disclosed, and ALWAYS shoved under the rug, if possible.
It is also the case that personal ego slows down the process for those who are even remotely connected to (like by having first-hand knowledge of) the ugly secrets. Loss of stature is a fear that ruins many men's ministries.
I am seriously considering the possibility that the solution to this is to dissolve the corporation, and split up the two opposing functions into two new, separate corporations. This is a new idea and I'd appreciate help brainstorming this.
Also in the works is an essay that the Way Tree is over. It was only supposed to be temporary, the great centralization of everything it teaches.
Especially egregious is the notion of God's revelation exclusively going through the Way Tree from the roots up. The centralized money thing is puny in my eyes compared to this major doctrinal abomination.
But this too is in the brainstorming stages, and (who knows?) I may want to eat those words someday. I am thinking out loud, searching for solutions. I need help here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
Again you contradict yourself. Two weeks ago you were pontificating about how everything is already determined. So, by your own admission, what damage has been done has been done regardless.
Any refusal for disclosure to any age would be bad. The longer you hold off, the longer people will get the feeling they've been had. People do have a right to know what they're signing up for.
Loving family, know any more funny ones? The Way has always been a fly by night operation interested in one thing, how much of your money they could get. Stop giving them money (and I don't mean just joking about it, really do it) then you'll see how loving that family is.
Two new corporations that would, as you said above, insist on hiding the truth.
Yah, I'm sure they're holding their breath waiting for that essay.
Okay.
I'm sure you will eat those words one day. The Way Wii never change, thinking it will is playing a mug's game.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Since day one.
The cornerstones of the foundational foundation are selling classes and literature. Everything else is propaganda bullshonta to serve that end. Victor was riding the wave of huckster evangelism when he launched this churchianity enterprise with dollar signs in his eyes.
Branham was doing the same, as were many others. He pivoted from a healing ministry to a teaching ministry, because there was more money in the teaching. And the Bible, and salvation, and "spirituality" were the hooks to reel in the dupes.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloved hands
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.