Jump to content
GreaseSpot Cafe

Yet another take


johniam
 Share

Recommended Posts

15 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

So what you are REALLY saying is the truth doesnt make them free....sad. TWI past is so bad you have to hide it until people develop your same level of rationalization.

No.  What I am saying is that the truth of the WORD will make them free, and that the UGLY FACTS of the ministry will heavily distract them from the truth.

Can you see the difference? 

Now I can see how someone all tangled up in the ugly facts of the ministry could use, in addition to the truths of the Word, could use some some facts regarding the ugly facts of the ministry.

But I think it would hurt them to get these facts too early, before they built the Word in their lives.

What I am totally against, is showing a new person the ugly facts prematurely, and cause them to abort all further learning of the Word from the collaterals in conjunction with Bible versions.

Please check out my two phone conversations with Schoenheit I posted a couple hours ago here on this thread.  The collaterals, he implied, don't have any of that ugliness in them, and continuing a study of them will help them to do well.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Kinda the problem with The Way Tree structure is how was anyone supposed to check and balance him?

I am at a point where I see the Way Tree as having lived its life and is now dead.   It was supposed to be temporary 50 years ago.  I am telling TWI people this slowly. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Mike said:

No.  What I am saying is that the truth of the WORD will make them free, and that the UGLY FACTS of the ministry will heavily distract them from the truth.

Can you see the difference? 

yeah -- I can see that you think its ok to lie to someone to hook them with PFLAP. Honesty, openess, and intergrity is what is needed...not the hidden things of dishonesty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Mike said:

I am at a point where I see the Way Tree as having lived its life and is now dead.   It was supposed to be temporary 50 years ago.  I am telling TWI people this slowly. 

Ponzi schemes have that problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Mike said:

But I think it would hurt them to get these facts too early, before they built the Word in their lives.

You are correct. The truth would keep them from believing wierwilles lies in pflap and elsewhere....once they would find out the truth of the way international that should do it...yeah your right.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, OldSkool said:

You are correct. The truth would keep them from believing wierwilles lies in pflap and elsewhere....once they would find out the truth of the way international that should do it...yeah your right.

The extreme ugliness of what the suppression of the Schoenheit paper meant to me in 1987, when I first saw it and after hearing much of it's suppression shook my confidence in what I was taught in the collaterals and everything else AT FIRST.  It was emotion.  As I went back to the Word I knew, I started processing it better.

The ugliness of TWI that I started gradually knowing in the late 70s, and the completion of that knowing in 1987, have not deterred me from promoting what was MOST BEAUTIFUL that came out of TWI, that is the collaterals.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Suppressing the truth is what you were just advocating...which is lying...your ok with that as long as someone takes pflap...shameless.

Nope.  It is temporary suspension of some facts for some newer people.

You forgot to mention those qualifiers.

And it is FACTS not truth that is the context.

Edited by Mike
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I think there is a lot of truth in that.

The Word says everyone has sin in their life.

For those who were so close to VPW that they could see the sin in his life, imitating that sin is an indication of them not having a proper understanding of the Word.  Lots of leaders fell this way, and some that I knew very personally, and it was very sad for me when I saw them descend from being great servants to God's people this way.

It was the DOCTRINES of victor paul wierwille that imitators used to justify their sin. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Mike said:

Nope.  It is temporary suspension of some facts for some newer people.

You forgot to mention those qualifiers.

And it is FACTS not truth that is the context.

No...that's lying no how many ways you try and say it isn't...it's like being in a relationship with someone who is hiding herpes. Personally I would wanna know to make an informed decision.

Edited by OldSkool
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Nathan_Jr said:

It was the DOCTRINES of victor paul wierwille that imitators used to justify their sin. 

Not doctrines from the collaterals. Otherwise Schoenheit would have warned me about them.  You're not processing what I said a few hours ago about my two full hour conversations with him.  Look them up. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

It was the DOCTRINES of victor paul wierwille that imitators used to justify their sin. 

Heck...wierwille used his own doctrines for those purposes too...acorn - fall - far - oak...something like that...

Malakas la seta bullshonta Mogadishu!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mike said:

If there was any trash in the collaterals that could mess me up, he would have known about it

How would he have known? Why would he be the one that would have known?

 

1 hour ago, Mike said:

But he knew they were sans trash.

He did? That's his opinion. You make him sound like someone with a lack of in depth perception and awareness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Mike said:

Not doctrines from the collaterals. Otherwise Schoenheit would have warned me about them.  You're not processing what I said a few hours ago about my two full hour conversations with him.  Look them up. 

 

Why the heck does anyone care what Schoenheit thinks...that's the same guy who got caught up in personal prophecies against his buddies...yeah...let's believe him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mike said:

There is a need to shelter new students, new Bible readers, newly born again believers, babes in Christ.  It should be a temporary sheltering, though.

A temporary sheltering of the truth? A postponed disillusionment?

Wow. The progressive, far left woke want the same thing. Hiding uncomfortable truth deprives people from learning how to deal with and understand it. This is ALWAYS a bad strategy, because truth will always, eventually, emerge. Then what? You are left with people Ill equipped to handle the truth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Mike said:

No.  What I am saying is that the truth of the WORD will make them free,

The primary and lasting error of victor paul wierwille's "ministry" is that the Truth is something to be possessed, and victor is the one who has it, and you, too, can have it if you only imitate him and stand on his shoulders.

A wicked deception.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Mike said:

Not doctrines from the collaterals. Otherwise Schoenheit would have warned me about them.  You're not processing what I said a few hours ago about my two full hour conversations with him.  Look them up. 

 

Schoenheit has it? He is the arbiter? He has the Truth? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

How would he have known? Why would he be the one that would have known?

He did? That's his opinion. You make him sound like someone with a lack of in depth perception and awareness.

You obviously don't know him or anything about him at all.

Maybe you are projecting in your complete ignorance of him.

He was a super researcher (still is) and the CHIEF WHISTLE BLOWER on the adultery with his famous 1986 paper.  Did you read it?  It is posted somewhere here.  Ask a friend about it and him.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Mike said:

I have indicated to them that it was the secrecy that ruined things, when the secrets got out.  I agree with you that MOST of the secrecy is extremely inefficient in that it fails to be secret eventually.

But sheltering new students from the garbage of yesteryear has its merits, so this is a matter of getting the right balance of openness and transparency versus sheltering (secrecy) new people from what would distract and discourage them from their study of the Word.

The tricky part for TWI leaders is to know when and how much THEY should tell the new people, as opposed to allowing them to find it out on GreaseSpot, or some other way that eliminates all the positives in an unbalance.

So you are running into the same ethical dilemma that the ministry leadership is in trying to put new wine in old wineskins?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mike said:

No.  What I am saying is that the truth of the WORD will make them free, and that the UGLY FACTS of the ministry will heavily distract them from the truth.

Can you see the difference? 

Now I can see how someone all tangled up in the ugly facts of the ministry could use, in addition to the truths of the Word, could use some some facts regarding the ugly facts of the ministry.

But I think it would hurt them to get these facts too early, before they built the Word in their lives.

What I am totally against, is showing a new person the ugly facts prematurely, and cause them to abort all further learning of the Word from the collaterals in conjunction with Bible versions.

Please check out my two phone conversations with Schoenheit I posted a couple hours ago here on this thread.  The collaterals, he implied, don't have any of that ugliness in them, and continuing a study of them will help them to do well.

 

Right.  Ugly truths are to be augmented with prettier truths so they aren’t so ugly.  Ugly facts that could lead to ugly truths need to be hidden, because really young believers to the cult need time to build the prettier truths into their head before facing the ugly facts that could direct them to the ugly truths rather than the prettier augmenting truths.  And it’s only the prettier truths in the Word that will make them free not the uglier truths.

I see it all now.

I can see the difference.

Thanks for making it all so clear for me.

I think you are the perfect person to write the Ways history from 1982 - present.

:rolleyes:

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...