And - Mike - you can't even see "the other side." You think everything's exaggerated. So how can you possibly write a balanced view?
Not so. Where did you get that idea from?
From me or from the INCESSANT jeering and mocking of me?
I think SOME things are exaggerated.
I think some things are totally factual, but the spins can be exaggerated.
When I saw the Schoenheit Paper in July 1987 I was pretty much convinced that TWI had bit the dust. I was also pi$$ed at VPW for leaving such a mess. That was at the END of my pondering. I was pi$$ed at Craig, Walter, and Geer for suppressing a VERY NEEDED research paper, when I first saw it.
Have you heard my testimony here about an amateur pre-Schoenheit Paper that I did in 1980, eight years before Schoenheit did his? No? Maybe the jeering and mocking drowned it out for you. It was needed in my twig. I was the twig leader. I will search out some of my write-ups of it and post it again.
What I did with my twig for almost 2 weeks was to work adultery and fornication from Young's Concordance. JUST LIKE SCHOENHEIT's. Then we collected together as many of the TVTs that we could remember that were circulating for years, that were justifications or excuses to commit adultery or fornication with impunity. We collected and worked about 10 of them, JUST LIKE SCHOENHEIT's collection of 14 excuses.
I had a head start over many posters here in that I knew SOMETHING was rotten in Denmark many years before the 1986 meltdown.
Twinky, had you ever heard this story from me? I posted it once, maybe twice around 2003-2007.
Trust me I've probably known the scandals, but from a great distance, longer than anyone here. Maybe a few knew more and longer, but just a few. These things tore me up in the early 1980s because there was no one to talk to about it. By 1987 I was really pi$$ed that HQ had HEAVY HANDEDLY and devilishly suppressed the Schoenheit paper. For the next 12 years I drifted around trying to figure things out. Then in 1998 I slowly realized that what I was taught was still the Word, and much bigger than all these relatively much smaller social/sexual problems. I did this far from TWI and the Geerites.
You are totally ignorant of my position(s) and are totally wrong about me thinking all was exaggerated. Are you going to retain this one tid-bit of truth from me or forget it?
I know that many very bad things happened at TWI and they all got shoved under the rug and still need to be dealt with. I just totally disagree with the fake "solutions" to all this that so many are cranking out for 20+ years now. The expose job was finished many years ago. It is time to start thinking solutions, if you really want to see a solution.
And - Mike - you can't even see "the other side." You think everything's exaggerated. So how can you possibly write a balanced view?
Do you even realize you are quoting and arguing with yourself? Oh wiat I forgot you don't know how to use the quote function properly.
1 minute ago, Mike said:
Not so. Where did you get that idea from?
From me or from the INCESSANT jeering and mocking of me?
I think SOME things are exaggerated.
I think some things are totally factual, but the spins can be exaggerated.
When I saw the Schoenheit Paper in July 1987 I was pretty much convinced that TWI had bit the dust. I was also pi$$ed at VPW for leaving such a mess. That was at the END of my pondering. I was pi$$ed at Craig, Walter, and Geer for suppressing a VERY NEEDED research paper, when I first saw it.
Have you heard my testimony here about an amateur pre-Schoenheit Paper that I did in 1980, eight years before Schoenheit did his? No? Maybe the jeering and mocking drowned it out for you. It was needed in my twig. I was the twig leader. I will search out some of my write-ups of it and post it again.
What I did with my twig for almost 2 weeks was to work adultery and fornication from Young's Concordance. JUST LIKE SCHOENHEIT's. Then we collected together as many of the TVTs that we could remember that were circulating for years, that were justifications or excuses to commit adultery or fornication with impunity. We collected and worked about 10 of them, JUST LIKE SCHOENHEIT's collection of 14 excuses.
I had a head start over many posters here in that I knew SOMETHING was rotten in Denmark many years before the 1986 meltdown.
Twinky, had you ever heard this story from me? I posted it once, maybe twice around 2003-2007.
Trust me I've probably known the scandals, but from a great distance, longer than anyone here. Maybe a few knew more and longer, but just a few. These things tore me up in the early 1980s because there was no one to talk to about it. By 1987 I was really pi$$ed that HQ had HEAVY HANDEDLY and devilishly suppressed the Schoenheit paper. For the next 12 years I drifted around trying to figure things out. Then in 1998 I slowly realized that what I was taught was still the Word, and much bigger than all these relatively much smaller social/sexual problems. I did this far from TWI and the Geerites.
You are totally ignorant of my position(s) and are totally wrong about me thinking all was exaggerated. Are you going to retain this one tid-bit or forget it? I know that many very bad things happened at TWI and they all got shoved under the rug and still need to be dealt with. I just totally disagree with the fake "solutions" to all this that so many are cranking out for 20+ years now. The expose job was finished many years ago. It is time to start thinking solutions, if you really want to see a solution.
And - Mike - you can't even see "the other side." You think everything's exaggerated. So how can you possibly write a balanced view?
Here is the account I gave to a friend in a letter some time ago. It demonstrates how I was fully aware of real nasty issues, along side MUCH exaggeration.
*/*/*/*
Have you considered reading the Schoenheit adultery paper from 1986?If you haven't, it will explain a lot, but it is also very troubling.I first saw it in 1987, and I was shocked.Not shocked at the contents, but that Craig and Walter and Geer banned it with all the gusto, and lies they could conjure up.
The ONLY doctrinal point it brings up is that adultery and fornication are against God’s Word.
One of the reasons it troubled me so much is that 8 years earlier, I had to "write" a similar paper.
What happened was a carload of young believers from Maine moved to SD around 1979-80 and landed in my twig. Within weeks one of them was sleeping with one of the girls that lived in my little way home, where my twig was.
I tried to ignore it until I saw it bothered one of the new believers who also lived there with us. I blew the whistle and told the two lovers to get a room outside our way home next time, that it was forbidden in my house.That caused a ruckus, but I stood my ground.
One of the lovers started spouting off one of the 14 excuses that were circulating around the ministry for years, so I said for the next several days we were going to research the Word on this issue.
We worked Young's Concordance on adultery and fornication, just like Schoenheit did 8 years LATER.Then we collected together as many of these excuses or seduction lines as we could remember hearing over the years in the rumor mill and over coffee. We collected about 10 of them.
This, again, is exactly what Schoenheit did 8 years LATER. His paper was professional and ours was amateur. He had 14 appendixes, we had 10. We had arrived at exactly the same conclusions.
It actually WORKED!The lovers stopped hassling us and eventually married, and I was the best man. They are still married today.Everyone else was happy, even the kids from Maine.
Maine was the last place Jimmy D was limb leader of. Another friend, who was also from Maine and was the rock star musician type told me he had attended orgies at Limb HQ and thought it was beautiful.He was pretty jaded.His favorite joke was "I have 2 kids... that I know of."A few years later an unknown son of age 30 from Maine contacted him for a reunion.
When I first saw the Schoenheit paper in 1987 I was furious, and still am.There are deep reasons why the ministry melted down in 1986, and this paper was the KEY catalyst.It has been swept under the rug by all TWI administrations since 1986.I want to see it fully aired (properly and lovingly) as one of the ECN projects.
There are deep reasons why the ministry melted down in 1986
When you distill these deep reasons to their essence, you will find that essence to be the imitation of and the standing on the shoulders of victor paul wierwille.
Here is the account I gave to a friend in a letter some time ago. It demonstrates how I was fully aware of real nasty issues, along side MUCH exaggeration.
*/*/*/*
Have you considered reading the Schoenheit adultery paper from 1986?If you haven't, it will explain a lot, but it is also very troubling.I first saw it in 1987, and I was shocked.Not shocked at the contents, but that Craig and Walter and Geer banned it with all the gusto, and lies they could conjure up.
The ONLY doctrinal point it brings up is that adultery and fornication are against God’s Word.
One of the reasons it troubled me so much is that 8 years earlier, I had to "write" a similar paper.
What happened was a carload of young believers from Maine moved to SD around 1979-80 and landed in my twig. Within weeks one of them was sleeping with one of the girls that lived in my little way home, where my twig was.
I tried to ignore it until I saw it bothered one of the new believers who also lived there with us. I blew the whistle and told the two lovers to get a room outside our way home next time, that it was forbidden in my house.That caused a ruckus, but I stood my ground.
One of the lovers started spouting off one of the 14 excuses that were circulating around the ministry for years, so I said for the next several days we were going to research the Word on this issue.
We worked Young's Concordance on adultery and fornication, just like Schoenheit did 8 years LATER.Then we collected together as many of these excuses or seduction lines as we could remember hearing over the years in the rumor mill and over coffee. We collected about 10 of them.
This, again, is exactly what Schoenheit did 8 years LATER. His paper was professional and ours was amateur. He had 14 appendixes, we had 10. We had arrived at exactly the same conclusions.
It actually WORKED!The lovers stopped hassling us and eventually married, and I was the best man. They are still married today.Everyone else was happy, even the kids from Maine.
Maine was the last place Jimmy D was limb leader of. Another friend, who was also from Maine and was the rock star musician type told me he had attended orgies at Limb HQ and thought it was beautiful.He was pretty jaded.His favorite joke was "I have 2 kids... that I know of."A few years later an unknown son of age 30 from Maine contacted him for a reunion.
When I first saw the Schoenheit paper in 1987 I was furious, and still am.There are deep reasons why the ministry melted down in 1986, and this paper was the KEY catalyst.It has been swept under the rug by all TWI administrations since 1986.I want to see it fully aired (properly and lovingly) as one of the ECN projects.
Its amazing how a simple concept like adultery was so twisted by victor paul wierwille and his clones. Simple biblical concept - husband of one wife and all that entails, which certainly being faithful sexually to your spouse would be of utmost importance. But wierwille rationalized it away and boinked all he could - he was a predator. It was so bad it took a FREAKING REASEARCH PAPER to call it out.(the author and all who agreed were fired - which martindale, howard allen and other kept up the practice)..it was systemic and you are fully aware and still pumping this trash which at this point makes you culpable by agreeing with it and trying to re-rationalize it all away. It was wrong then, it's wrong now and I don't care if only one person was victimized just a tiny little bit - its all wrong!
I had a head start over many posters here in that I knew SOMETHING was rotten in Denmark many years before the 1986 meltdown.
...
Trust me I've probably known the scandals, but from a great distance, longer than anyone here. Maybe a few knew more and longer, but just a few. These things tore me up in the early 1980s because there was no one to talk to about it. By 1987 I was really pi$$ed that HQ had HEAVY HANDEDLY and devilishly suppressed the Schoenheit paper.
And yet, just hours ago, on another thread, Mike says:
8 hours ago, Mike said:
You stand by and watch people do their utmost to tear me down, just like the video above talks about. Can't you see you are doing the same thing ((( with your silence on the massive violations against love, civil decorum, and meaningful discussion with me by many others ))) the same way TWI people watched in silence as leaders everywhere practiced the 14 Appendixes to the Schoenheit paper years ago.
So here's a bit of confusion. He complains in one place about "massive violations" and "watch[ing] in silence" about what he perceives is being done to him - but now he tells us that he had a "head start in that he knew something was rotten." So what did he do? Did he confront leadership? No, he "works the word" with a concordance and his twig, comes up with some stuff about adultery, and then what? Does nothing. He "watched in silence" as the sinful behaviour continued.
Boy oh boy! You don't need a concordance to know that something is wrong! When it's written plain as day! So speak up!! Confront the wrongdoing when you see it!
Crikey, anyone who's spent time at HQ knew that even the slightest "wrongdoing" (usually imagined by some sort of leadership) was confronted immediately and often verbally violently. A glance in the wrong direction, a word out of place, being late (ie not 10 mins early) for a meeting, being too hot and taking one's hat off - immediate confrontation. Yes, those things happened.
TWI leadership does not sit back in silence. So why did you, Mike? With your great contacts with leadership?
Have you considered reading the Schoenheit adultery paper from 1986?If you haven't, it will explain a lot, but it is also very troubling.I first saw it in 1987, and I was shocked.Not shocked at the contents, but that Craig and Walter and Geer banned it with all the gusto, and lies they could conjure up.
Yeah, I read it. I thought it was a bit amateurish, to be honest.
The paper didn't shock me. Why should it? What shocked me to the core was that this ministry, that I had defended and truly thought was perhaps the only decent Christian ministry around - was deeply into the practice of sexual abuse - in contravention of explicit Commandments not to, in both OT and epistles. Also in contravention of conventional Christian wisdom and theology.
A glass of red wine, and I'm saying they should all have their willies cut off. That'll stop them fvcking other men's wives.
Its amazing how a simple concept like adultery was so twisted by victor paul wierwille and his clones. Simple biblical concept - husband of one wife and all that entails, which certainly being faithful sexually to your spouse would be of utmost importance. But wierwille rationalized it away and boinked all he could - he was a predator. It was so bad it took a FREAKING REASEARCH PAPER to call it out.(the author and all who agreed were fired - which martindale, howard allen and other kept up the practice)..it was systemic and you are fully aware and still pumping this trash which at this point makes you culpable by agreeing with it and trying to re-rationalize it all away. It was wrong then, it's wrong now and I don't care if only one person was victimized just a tiny little bit - its all wrong!
Here’s yet another take. I don’t know if it’s “balanced” (whatever that means!), but it’s certainly perceptive and aware and insightful and accurate.
What more could one ask of the historical record?
It was so bad it took a FREAKING REASEARCH PAPER to call it out.
So here's a bit of confusion. He complains in one place about "massive violations" and "watch[ing] in silence" about what he perceives is being done to him
- but now he tells us that he had a "head start in that he knew something was rotten." So what did he do? Did he confront leadership?
Did you see the line where I said I have posted this story before here? Maybe twice?
What did I do about confronting leadership? I knew it would fall on deaf ears (branch leader, 6th Corps, later Rev.) because he was a big believer in sex being legal in the NT. You know, the spiritual adultery crap. There were lots of Corps mouthing that and some of the other 13 rationalizations. I knew that if there was something that I could DO about the problem it would be limited to my twig. I did what I could and I got good results. Then I went WoW and and not too much later the ministry melted down. I did something from my lowly position of just a twig leader and non-Corps.
What are You doing to confront leadership about this problem at the moment.
Actually, I am informing the WayGB about it right now, I hope. If they know a proPFAL'68 and a PFAL-T grad like me is posting this stuff, they will take if more seriously than by them reading it here from other posters.
I asked you if you talk to any TWI. Don't know if you answered it or not because my time is too scarce today, and I haven't read any posts. I just scanned through the pages to see if you were there. At least you don't resort to the crazy jeering and mocking the others favor. I appreciate having a civil conversation with you much more than the youngsters here.
Have you considered lightening up on the hate and suspicions and giving the new folks at TWI a chance to recover from the calamity HQ has been for so long? Remember 1 Cor 13, and agape thinks no evil. That is a difficult challenge, to love your enemies, that is. I think someone famous said that was a good thing to strive for. How many enemies have you loved today?
Mike. Get this clear. I hate no-one. I hate ABUSE.
Agape thinks no evil? Right. Agapecalls evil out!! And I'm calling out the abuse that occurred and likely still occurs. That's not hate, that's love.
Hate wants to cover the evil. Excuse it. Minimise it. Pretend it's "spiritual adultery" that matters (or some such rot).
"Woe unto them that call evil good, andgood evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isa.5:20.)
Mike. Get this clear. I hate no-one. I hate ABUSE.
Agape thinks no evil? Right. Agapecalls evil out!! And I'm calling out the abuse that occurred and likely still occurs. That's not hate, that's love.
Hate wants to cover the evil. Excuse it. Minimise it. Pretend it's "spiritual adultery" that matters (or some such rot).
"Woe unto them that call evil good, andgood evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isa.5:20.)
giving the new folks at TWI a chance to recover from the calamity HQ has been for so long?
ROFLMAO!! What new folks? None of the directors are new. Heck - Bill Greene, John Rupp, and Angela Priester all worked together 25 years ago in the way of the USA, Angela ran the Advanced Class department which was in the way of the USA offices. All of them were around when craig was there and nodded in approval, they all weathered rosalie better than the average bootlicker...john rupp was rosalies favorite lapdog.
The way international likes to shuffle the deck and stand back while people draw their own conclusions that are painfully inaccurate but it keeps people around. Heck, it gets an old grad like you to buy the same new/old class...and the chairs on the deck of the titanic have once been rearranged...hoopla!
It was so bad it took a FREAKING REASEARCH PAPER to call it out.
Wow. Mmmmph. Mmmmm, MMMPH!!
Can you image Luke going through childish histrionics like yours when he exposed, in Acts, the many errors of Peter, the huge stupid nostalgic error of Paul, the short sightedness of Barnabas, the possessed elders in Jerusalem?
It only takes a love of truth for a mature person to see that banning a research paper the condemns adultery is no way to cover up something bad.
Have you ever contemplated what it means in 1 Cor 13 when it says love rejoices not in iniquity?
Have you ever been in a position where you could get real sharp on that verse by getting some practice at applying it? No? Never? Never ever? Think hard. Maybe call that friend.
Can you image Luke going through childish histrionics like yours when he exposed, in Acts, the many errors of Peter, the huge stupid nostalgic error of Paul, the short sightedness of Barnabas, the possessed elders in Jerusalem?
It only takes a love of truth for a mature person to see that banning a research paper the condemns adultery is no way to cover up something bad.
Have you ever contemplated what it means in 1 Cor 13 when it says love rejoices not in iniquity?
Have you ever been in a position where you could get real sharp on that verse by getting some practice at applying it? No? Never? Never ever? Think hard. Maybe call that friend.
Can you image Luke going through childish histrionics like yours when he exposed, in Acts, the many errors of Peter, the huge stupid nostalgic error of Paul, the short sightedness of Barnabas, the possessed elders in Jerusalem?
It only takes a love of truth for a mature person to see that banning a research paper the condemns adultery is no way to cover up something bad.
Have you ever contemplated what it means in 1 Cor 13 when it says love rejoices not in iniquity?
Have you ever been in a position where you could get real sharp on that verse by getting some practice at applying it? No? Never? Never ever? Think hard. Maybe call that friend.
Can you imagine Jesus Christ wanting a pity party because people were mocking and misrepresenting him?
Can you image Luke going through childish histrionics like yours when he exposed, in Acts, the many errors of Peter, the huge stupid nostalgic error of Paul, the short sightedness of Barnabas, the possessed elders in Jerusalem?
The real thing was a LOT more exciting than you're picturing it. "The huge, stupid, nostalgic error of Paul" was consenting of Stephen's DEATH, and planning to have all the Christians rounded up and imprisoned, including women and children.
There's also no guarantee any elder was "possessed". We know one had sons who were really messed up, but otherwise, their problems could all have been greed, pride, and corruption.
3 hours ago, Mike said:
It only takes a love of truth for a mature person to see that banning a research paper the condemns adultery is no way to cover up something bad.
The banning of the research paper that condemned adultery was completely an attempt to cover up the adultery. By preventing (they thought) any discussion and any thinking on the subject of adultery, they thought they could keep getting away with it- and some of them DID.
3 hours ago, Mike said:
Have you ever contemplated what it means in 1 Cor 13 when it says love rejoices not in iniquity?
I Corinthians 13:6 KJV. "6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;"
It means that I should not join in when someone suggests that orgies are fine with God and tries to twist the meaning of a verse to allow that. It also means that I should take my joy in actually knowing the truth on sexual morality and base my OWN actions on the truth.
Have you ever been in a position where you could get real sharp on that verse by getting some practice at applying it? No? Never? Never ever? Think hard. Maybe call that friend.
There's a great, big world out there. There's lots of opportunities to apply the verses of the Bible, not just the opportunities endorsed by Mike. There's lots of people who need God's Love. There's a lot of hearts that need healing. There's a lot of bodies that need healing. There's a lot of lives to effect. There's a lot of differences to make. In many of them, people welcome the chance to change or get God's help. We don't need to confine our efforts to a handful that have already been resistant to any such help- but if they show themselves ready, we CAN offer them a hand up if it seems to us the time is right- and that's only by our sole estimation.
why does a so called Christian ministry need so much secrecy?
Answer: lockbox.
Mike said:
Quote
I want to start writing a balanced history of TWI, and an unvarnished history, and a hate-free history. Neither TWI nor GSC is well practiced at hearing both sides and synthesizing a loving, thoughtful, THOROUGH history.
I'd like some people here to help me, and I want some TWI people to help me. I want to see a something like a committee written history that is balanced and really uses love to consider all the points from both sides on this issue.
In addition to how Twinky addressed these two paragraphs, I will add that you may have a desire to do so, but you don't learn how to be a historian by washing windows. Your writing skills are atrocious. Your interviewing skills? Well, from reading your screed for so long, I surmise that you have no idea how to get anyone to open up and share meaningful, relevant insight. IOW, there's NFW you could accomplish this.
People with journalistic background HAVE written histories of TWI. People with good writing skills HAVE written their twi experience stories.
However, IF you were to use your self-lauded academic contacts (meaning YOU have lauded your ability to connect with highly educated individuals in science) to connect with historians with an interest in cults... or if you prefer, interest in out-of-the-mainstream Christian fundamentalist sects, you MIGHT be able to collaborate with one or more of them who actually COULD do a serious academic write up on twi's history.
They MIGHT have skills that could convince the twi directors to sanction such an effort. But the realistic likelihood those directors would allow it for anything other than hagiography is somewhere between slim and none.
Yes, actually I hope he did because we are to try all spirits to see if they are from God.
You need not use the word "hope" for this.
I was referring to Luke's Acts of the Apostles, where he spills the beans on ministry mistakes so discretely, that VPW had to point out that men of God make mistakes, as he taught of Paul's journey to Jerusalem.
The translators missed it and bent the KJV with a comma, to make it look like Paul was doing the will of the Lord, when he was not. They missed it for its subtlety, Luke was so discrete, and figured it had to go the way they wrongly worked it.
I really hope you know that I no longer subscribe to way international bullshonta reasons I can't use certain words the way the English language dictates their usage. I really hope you can understand this...but I don't hold out much hope for that.
Mike I'm glad u post here because you provide a good case study for why people should avoid the way international and their illogical false doctrine the teach in pflap. Well...I gotta go if I really hope to make it to Chick-fil-A before they stop serving biscuits...hope they have some left...bullshonta malakas many
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Twinky
Mike. Get this clear. I hate no-one. I hate ABUSE. Agape thinks no evil? Right. Agape calls evil out!! And I'm calling out the abuse that occurred and likely still occurs. That's not hate
chockfull
Okay reading thru this I find it hard to believe the lack of empathy. Mike is always looking to run down anyone who went thru the Corps as a problem. Actually, I don't find it hard t believe. The w
OldSkool
Correct! But a Christian organization that is all about material abundance is not a Christian orginazation at all because that's not what Christianity is about and its shameful to even attach Christ n
Mike
Not so. Where did you get that idea from?
From me or from the INCESSANT jeering and mocking of me?
I think SOME things are exaggerated.
I think some things are totally factual, but the spins can be exaggerated.
When I saw the Schoenheit Paper in July 1987 I was pretty much convinced that TWI had bit the dust. I was also pi$$ed at VPW for leaving such a mess. That was at the END of my pondering. I was pi$$ed at Craig, Walter, and Geer for suppressing a VERY NEEDED research paper, when I first saw it.
Have you heard my testimony here about an amateur pre-Schoenheit Paper that I did in 1980, eight years before Schoenheit did his? No? Maybe the jeering and mocking drowned it out for you. It was needed in my twig. I was the twig leader. I will search out some of my write-ups of it and post it again.
What I did with my twig for almost 2 weeks was to work adultery and fornication from Young's Concordance. JUST LIKE SCHOENHEIT's. Then we collected together as many of the TVTs that we could remember that were circulating for years, that were justifications or excuses to commit adultery or fornication with impunity. We collected and worked about 10 of them, JUST LIKE SCHOENHEIT's collection of 14 excuses.
I had a head start over many posters here in that I knew SOMETHING was rotten in Denmark many years before the 1986 meltdown.
Twinky, had you ever heard this story from me? I posted it once, maybe twice around 2003-2007.
Trust me I've probably known the scandals, but from a great distance, longer than anyone here. Maybe a few knew more and longer, but just a few. These things tore me up in the early 1980s because there was no one to talk to about it. By 1987 I was really pi$$ed that HQ had HEAVY HANDEDLY and devilishly suppressed the Schoenheit paper. For the next 12 years I drifted around trying to figure things out. Then in 1998 I slowly realized that what I was taught was still the Word, and much bigger than all these relatively much smaller social/sexual problems. I did this far from TWI and the Geerites.
You are totally ignorant of my position(s) and are totally wrong about me thinking all was exaggerated. Are you going to retain this one tid-bit of truth from me or forget it?
I know that many very bad things happened at TWI and they all got shoved under the rug and still need to be dealt with. I just totally disagree with the fake "solutions" to all this that so many are cranking out for 20+ years now. The expose job was finished many years ago. It is time to start thinking solutions, if you really want to see a solution.
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OldSkool
Do you even realize you are quoting and arguing with yourself? Oh wiat I forgot you don't know how to use the quote function properly.
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Mike
Here is the account I gave to a friend in a letter some time ago. It demonstrates how I was fully aware of real nasty issues, along side MUCH exaggeration.
*/*/*/*
Have you considered reading the Schoenheit adultery paper from 1986? If you haven't, it will explain a lot, but it is also very troubling. I first saw it in 1987, and I was shocked. Not shocked at the contents, but that Craig and Walter and Geer banned it with all the gusto, and lies they could conjure up.
The ONLY doctrinal point it brings up is that adultery and fornication are against God’s Word.
One of the reasons it troubled me so much is that 8 years earlier, I had to "write" a similar paper.
What happened was a carload of young believers from Maine moved to SD around 1979-80 and landed in my twig. Within weeks one of them was sleeping with one of the girls that lived in my little way home, where my twig was.
I tried to ignore it until I saw it bothered one of the new believers who also lived there with us. I blew the whistle and told the two lovers to get a room outside our way home next time, that it was forbidden in my house. That caused a ruckus, but I stood my ground.
One of the lovers started spouting off one of the 14 excuses that were circulating around the ministry for years, so I said for the next several days we were going to research the Word on this issue.
We worked Young's Concordance on adultery and fornication, just like Schoenheit did 8 years LATER. Then we collected together as many of these excuses or seduction lines as we could remember hearing over the years in the rumor mill and over coffee. We collected about 10 of them.
This, again, is exactly what Schoenheit did 8 years LATER. His paper was professional and ours was amateur. He had 14 appendixes, we had 10. We had arrived at exactly the same conclusions.
It actually WORKED! The lovers stopped hassling us and eventually married, and I was the best man. They are still married today. Everyone else was happy, even the kids from Maine.
Maine was the last place Jimmy D was limb leader of. Another friend, who was also from Maine and was the rock star musician type told me he had attended orgies at Limb HQ and thought it was beautiful. He was pretty jaded. His favorite joke was "I have 2 kids... that I know of." A few years later an unknown son of age 30 from Maine contacted him for a reunion.
When I first saw the Schoenheit paper in 1987 I was furious, and still am. There are deep reasons why the ministry melted down in 1986, and this paper was the KEY catalyst. It has been swept under the rug by all TWI administrations since 1986. I want to see it fully aired (properly and lovingly) as one of the ECN projects.
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Nathan_Jr
…by people standing on the shoulders of and imitating victor paul wierwille.
Until you acknowledge this, your “balanced history” will only ever be propaganda.
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Nathan_Jr
When you distill these deep reasons to their essence, you will find that essence to be the imitation of and the standing on the shoulders of victor paul wierwille.
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OldSkool
Its amazing how a simple concept like adultery was so twisted by victor paul wierwille and his clones. Simple biblical concept - husband of one wife and all that entails, which certainly being faithful sexually to your spouse would be of utmost importance. But wierwille rationalized it away and boinked all he could - he was a predator. It was so bad it took a FREAKING REASEARCH PAPER to call it out.(the author and all who agreed were fired - which martindale, howard allen and other kept up the practice)..it was systemic and you are fully aware and still pumping this trash which at this point makes you culpable by agreeing with it and trying to re-rationalize it all away. It was wrong then, it's wrong now and I don't care if only one person was victimized just a tiny little bit - its all wrong!
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Twinky
And yet, just hours ago, on another thread, Mike says:
So here's a bit of confusion. He complains in one place about "massive violations" and "watch[ing] in silence" about what he perceives is being done to him - but now he tells us that he had a "head start in that he knew something was rotten." So what did he do? Did he confront leadership? No, he "works the word" with a concordance and his twig, comes up with some stuff about adultery, and then what? Does nothing. He "watched in silence" as the sinful behaviour continued.
Boy oh boy! You don't need a concordance to know that something is wrong! When it's written plain as day! So speak up!! Confront the wrongdoing when you see it!
Crikey, anyone who's spent time at HQ knew that even the slightest "wrongdoing" (usually imagined by some sort of leadership) was confronted immediately and often verbally violently. A glance in the wrong direction, a word out of place, being late (ie not 10 mins early) for a meeting, being too hot and taking one's hat off - immediate confrontation. Yes, those things happened.
TWI leadership does not sit back in silence. So why did you, Mike? With your great contacts with leadership?
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OldSkool
Time for an intermission based off the title of this thread: Yet Another Take
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Twinky
Yeah, I read it. I thought it was a bit amateurish, to be honest.
The paper didn't shock me. Why should it? What shocked me to the core was that this ministry, that I had defended and truly thought was perhaps the only decent Christian ministry around - was deeply into the practice of sexual abuse - in contravention of explicit Commandments not to, in both OT and epistles. Also in contravention of conventional Christian wisdom and theology.
A glass of red wine, and I'm saying they should all have their willies cut off. That'll stop them fvcking other men's wives.
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Nathan_Jr
Here’s yet another take. I don’t know if it’s “balanced” (whatever that means!), but it’s certainly perceptive and aware and insightful and accurate.
What more could one ask of the historical record?
It was so bad it took a FREAKING REASEARCH PAPER to call it out.
Wow. Mmmmph. Mmmmm, MMMPH!!
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Mike
Did you see the line where I said I have posted this story before here? Maybe twice?
What did I do about confronting leadership? I knew it would fall on deaf ears (branch leader, 6th Corps, later Rev.) because he was a big believer in sex being legal in the NT. You know, the spiritual adultery crap. There were lots of Corps mouthing that and some of the other 13 rationalizations. I knew that if there was something that I could DO about the problem it would be limited to my twig. I did what I could and I got good results. Then I went WoW and and not too much later the ministry melted down. I did something from my lowly position of just a twig leader and non-Corps.
What are You doing to confront leadership about this problem at the moment.
Actually, I am informing the WayGB about it right now, I hope. If they know a proPFAL'68 and a PFAL-T grad like me is posting this stuff, they will take if more seriously than by them reading it here from other posters.
I asked you if you talk to any TWI. Don't know if you answered it or not because my time is too scarce today, and I haven't read any posts. I just scanned through the pages to see if you were there. At least you don't resort to the crazy jeering and mocking the others favor. I appreciate having a civil conversation with you much more than the youngsters here.
Have you considered lightening up on the hate and suspicions and giving the new folks at TWI a chance to recover from the calamity HQ has been for so long? Remember 1 Cor 13, and agape thinks no evil. That is a difficult challenge, to love your enemies, that is. I think someone famous said that was a good thing to strive for. How many enemies have you loved today?
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Twinky
Mike. Get this clear. I hate no-one. I hate ABUSE.
Agape thinks no evil? Right. Agape calls evil out!! And I'm calling out the abuse that occurred and likely still occurs. That's not hate, that's love.
Hate wants to cover the evil. Excuse it. Minimise it. Pretend it's "spiritual adultery" that matters (or some such rot).
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isa. 5:20.)
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Nathan_Jr
Amen.
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OldSkool
ROFLMAO!! What new folks? None of the directors are new. Heck - Bill Greene, John Rupp, and Angela Priester all worked together 25 years ago in the way of the USA, Angela ran the Advanced Class department which was in the way of the USA offices. All of them were around when craig was there and nodded in approval, they all weathered rosalie better than the average bootlicker...john rupp was rosalies favorite lapdog.
The way international likes to shuffle the deck and stand back while people draw their own conclusions that are painfully inaccurate but it keeps people around. Heck, it gets an old grad like you to buy the same new/old class...and the chairs on the deck of the titanic have once been rearranged...hoopla!
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Mike
Can you image Luke going through childish histrionics like yours when he exposed, in Acts, the many errors of Peter, the huge stupid nostalgic error of Paul, the short sightedness of Barnabas, the possessed elders in Jerusalem?
It only takes a love of truth for a mature person to see that banning a research paper the condemns adultery is no way to cover up something bad.
Have you ever contemplated what it means in 1 Cor 13 when it says love rejoices not in iniquity?
Have you ever been in a position where you could get real sharp on that verse by getting some practice at applying it? No? Never? Never ever? Think hard. Maybe call that friend.
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OldSkool
Yes, actually I hope he did because we are to try all spirits to see if they are from God.
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Nathan_Jr
It's only iniquity if you believe it is.
victor paul wierwille "taught" me that.
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So_crates
Can you imagine Jesus Christ wanting a pity party because people were mocking and misrepresenting him?
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Nathan_Jr
Good point. Jesus was a mere bastard Jew who couldn't even speak in tongues. Victor paul wierwille "taught" me that. Such wicked, spiritual stupidity!
But Mike nor victor nor TWI are being misrepresented here.
Anyone asserting fantasy as fact and leading those who seek God astray are surprised to be mocked, as they inhabit deep delusion and denial.
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WordWolf
The real thing was a LOT more exciting than you're picturing it. "The huge, stupid, nostalgic error of Paul" was consenting of Stephen's DEATH, and planning to have all the Christians rounded up and imprisoned, including women and children.
There's also no guarantee any elder was "possessed". We know one had sons who were really messed up, but otherwise, their problems could all have been greed, pride, and corruption.
The banning of the research paper that condemned adultery was completely an attempt to cover up the adultery. By preventing (they thought) any discussion and any thinking on the subject of adultery, they thought they could keep getting away with it- and some of them DID.
I Corinthians 13:6 KJV. "6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;"
It means that I should not join in when someone suggests that orgies are fine with God and tries to twist the meaning of a verse to allow that. It also means that I should take my joy in actually knowing the truth on sexual morality and base my OWN actions on the truth.
There's a great, big world out there. There's lots of opportunities to apply the verses of the Bible, not just the opportunities endorsed by Mike. There's lots of people who need God's Love. There's a lot of hearts that need healing. There's a lot of bodies that need healing. There's a lot of lives to effect. There's a lot of differences to make. In many of them, people welcome the chance to change or get God's help. We don't need to confine our efforts to a handful that have already been resistant to any such help- but if they show themselves ready, we CAN offer them a hand up if it seems to us the time is right- and that's only by our sole estimation.
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Rocky
Answer: lockbox.
Mike said:
Edited by RockyIn addition to how Twinky addressed these two paragraphs, I will add that you may have a desire to do so, but you don't learn how to be a historian by washing windows. Your writing skills are atrocious. Your interviewing skills? Well, from reading your screed for so long, I surmise that you have no idea how to get anyone to open up and share meaningful, relevant insight. IOW, there's NFW you could accomplish this.
People with journalistic background HAVE written histories of TWI. People with good writing skills HAVE written their twi experience stories.
However, IF you were to use your self-lauded academic contacts (meaning YOU have lauded your ability to connect with highly educated individuals in science) to connect with historians with an interest in cults... or if you prefer, interest in out-of-the-mainstream Christian fundamentalist sects, you MIGHT be able to collaborate with one or more of them who actually COULD do a serious academic write up on twi's history.
They MIGHT have skills that could convince the twi directors to sanction such an effort. But the realistic likelihood those directors would allow it for anything other than hagiography is somewhere between slim and none.
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Mike
You need not use the word "hope" for this.
I was referring to Luke's Acts of the Apostles, where he spills the beans on ministry mistakes so discretely, that VPW had to point out that men of God make mistakes, as he taught of Paul's journey to Jerusalem.
The translators missed it and bent the KJV with a comma, to make it look like Paul was doing the will of the Lord, when he was not. They missed it for its subtlety, Luke was so discrete, and figured it had to go the way they wrongly worked it.
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OldSkool
I really hope you know that I no longer subscribe to way international bullshonta reasons I can't use certain words the way the English language dictates their usage. I really hope you can understand this...but I don't hold out much hope for that.
Mike I'm glad u post here because you provide a good case study for why people should avoid the way international and their illogical false doctrine the teach in pflap. Well...I gotta go if I really hope to make it to Chick-fil-A before they stop serving biscuits...hope they have some left...bullshonta malakas many
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chockfull
It is true we need not mention hope.
But on the other hand, why not?
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