I'd like some people here to help me, and I want some TWI people to help me. I want to see a something like a committee written history that is balanced and really uses love to consider all the points from both sides on this issue.
The history is not that complicated. There is a true version found here and not another version except Mrs VPW book covers early history.
What does TWI say regarding you taking on this endeavor? Do you have any support from them?
quote: Clearly, what he was pitching was the promise of material gain. No God needed, just follow the formula.
Everybody wants more money. We still use money. Some parts of life you have to navigate your way through and money is no help, but much of life you have to purchase your way through. You don't have to be a "religious cult" to encourage people to make more money.
Everybody wants more money. We still use money. Some parts of life you have to navigate your way through and money is no help, but much of life you have to purchase your way through. You don't have to be a "religious cult" to encourage people to make more money.
Correct! But a Christian organization that is all about material abundance is not a Christian orginazation at all because that's not what Christianity is about and its shameful to even attach Christ name to any organization that calls themselves Christian but preaches the damnable prosperity gospel. You can go make all the money you want in life and you can even do that as a Christian, but that's not the essence of Christianity.
quote: Clearly, what he was pitching was the promise of material gain. No God needed, just follow the formula.
Everybody wants more money. We still use money. Some parts of life you have to navigate your way through and money is no help, but much of life you have to purchase your way through. You don't have to be a "religious cult" to encourage people to make more monemone
True, you don't have to be a cult to encourage people to make more money. But with the Way it's bait and switch. When you start into the Way it's God will meet your needs and wait until you see the life God has planned for you. Then, when you've landed on your face a time or two and that abundant life doesn't manifest, suddenly it's: What? You thought they were physical? They actually spiritual.
quote: Correct! But a Christian organization that is all about material abundance is not a Christian orginazation at all because that's not what Christianity is about and its shameful to even attach Christ name to any organization that calls themselves Christian but preaches the damnable prosperity gospel. You can go make all the money you want in life and you can even do that as a Christian, but that's not the essence of Christianity.
Christians are people. David was called a man after God's own heart and he wasn't Christian. He also did something that displeased the Lord in 2 Samuel 11:27. We're all like that too. To say they're not even Christian is just playing God.
To say they're not even Christian is just playing God.
Victor played God. Aren't we supposed to imitate him and stand on his shoulders?
He said you're not even Christian if you don't tithe, because tithing is the LEAST you should do as a Christian. Less than the least is nothing = not even Christian.
Christians are people. David was called a man after God's own heart and he wasn't Christian. He also did something that displeased the Lord in 2 Samuel 11:27. We're all like that too. To say they're not even Christian is just playing God.
Yes, and people can be Christian - moot point.
David wasn't a Christian because Christ was still future to David so how could he be Christian? Yet - he looked forward to the coming Messiah and God hasn't changed and God has never been about material abundance, though he can provide it, but thats not the essence of God - love and light yes - money no.
I didn't say anyone was Christian or not
41 minutes ago, johniam said:
shameful to even attach Christ name to any organization that calls themselves Christian but preaches the damnable prosperity gospel.
I will say it again - shameful to even attach Christ name to any organization that calls themselves Christian but preaches the damnable prosperity gospel. Obviously, I am talking about the organization and not the people in it.
Everybody wants more money. We still use money. Some parts of life you have to navigate your way through and money is no help, but much of life you have to purchase your way through. You don't have to be a "religious cult" to encourage people to make more money.
Strawman.
But if you insist we shift in that direction, It's really not about people making more money. It's about people giving more money to the organization.
You really want make to make more money? Send me $20 and I'll tell you how.
I want to start writing a balanced history of TWI, and an unvarnished history, and a hate-free history. Neither TWI nor GSC is well practiced at hearing both sides and synthesizing a loving, thoughtful, THOROUGH history.
I'd like some people here to help me, and I want some TWI people to help me. I want to see a something like a committee written history that is balanced and really uses love to consider all the points from both sides on this issue.
Hahahaha! That is just never going to happen. GSC exists, as you are well aware, to tell "the other side" of the story. The greed, the abuse. The lies and theft. The adultery and rape. The "do as I say, not as I do" attitude. Whereas TWI purports to be whiter than white and refuses to acknowledge sins of the past, sins of the present, and likely sins of the future. Sins of the present and future, you say? Well, for one thing: what about the continuing division they foster - refusing to acknowledge "mainstream" Christians as even being Christians? And selfishly hoarding all to themselves and never giving back to their community?
And - Mike - you can't even see "the other side." You think everything's exaggerated. So how can you possibly write a balanced view? By the way, have you finished reading "the other side" as set out in Charlene's book yet?
Hahahaha! That is just never going to happen. GSC exists, as you are well aware, to tell "the other side" of the story. The greed, the abuse. The lies and theft. The adultery and rape. The "do as I say, not as I do" attitude. Whereas TWI purports to be whiter than white and refuses to acknowledge sins of the past, sins of the present, and likely sins of the future. Sins of the present and future, you say? Well, for one thing: what about the continuing division they foster - refusing to acknowledge "mainstream" Christians as even being Christians? And selfishly hoarding all to themselves and never giving back to their community?
And - Mike - you can't even see "the other side." You think everything's exaggerated. So how can you possibly write a balanced view? By the way, have you finished reading "the other side" as set out in Charlene's book yet?
There is more than one version of the other side.
The religion-like, cult-like tactics that can happen often here in GreaseSpot cause much of your version of the other side to skew way off in the negative direction, JUST LIKE the twi version skews off in the whitewash/coverup direction.
I am one of the FEW grads who can fellowship with both sides, and try to get a more balanced handle on things.
*/*/*/*
Refusing to acknowledge "mainstream" Christians has evaporated in the local leadership, if they ever had that problem. I will find out more about how they are on this at HQ as I get to know them. I go to them to find out how they think. You might want try and reconnect with some to see for yourself what the CURRENT situation is there. It's been38 years since the Schoenheit paper melted everything down. That is more than a generation. Get current, is my suggestion.
*/*/*/*
You wrote:
"And - Mike - you can't even see "the other side." You think everything's exaggerated. So how can you possibly write a balanced view? By the way, have you finished reading "the other side" as set out in Charlene's book yet? "
I look at BOTH SIDES intensely, and personally, and face-to-face, telephone to telephone when possible. Can you say your research of the current is from evidence? Or is it from intense repetition of memory and speculation? Do you have ANY contact with even just one person there?
I work both sides intensely. I read MUCH that is posted here.
Yes I have resumed reading "Undertow" because in my reading here I picked up the news that it is more focused on the research end of the ministry, which I have some first hand understanding of, and feel half way competent to understand the issues deeply.
You will never be able to figure that one out unless you see it for yourself, and you arent in their same caste. Why do you think everything with them is condidential? Its not like they are gaurding military secrets...why does a so called Christian ministry need so much secrecy?
The religion-like, cult-like tactics that can happen often here in GreaseSpot cause much of your version of the other side to skew way off in the negative direction, JUST LIKE the twi version skews off in the whitewash/coverup direction.
I am one of the FEW grads who can fellowship with both sides, and try to get a more balanced handle on things.
*/*/*/*
Refusing to acknowledge "mainstream" Christians has evaporated in the local leadership, if they ever had that problem. I will find out more about how they are on this at HQ as I get to know them. I go to them to find out how they think. You might want try and reconnect with some to see for yourself what the CURRENT situation is there. It's been38 years since the Schoenheit paper melted everything down. That is more than a generation. Get current, is my suggestion.
*/*/*/*
You wrote:
"And - Mike - you can't even see "the other side." You think everything's exaggerated. So how can you possibly write a balanced view? By the way, have you finished reading "the other side" as set out in Charlene's book yet? "
I look at BOTH SIDES intensely, and personally, and face-to-face, telephone to telephone when possible. Can you say your research of the current is from evidence? Or is it from intense repetition of memory and speculation? Do you have ANY contact with even just one person there?
I work both sides intensely. I read MUCH that is posted here.
Yes I have resumed reading "Undertow" because in my reading here I picked up the news that it is more focused on the research end of the ministry, which I have some first hand understanding of, and feel half way competent to understand the issues deeply.
Refusal to acknowledge mainstream Christianity is not the issue. An indoctrinating class series whose end result is isolating people off from all mainstream Christianity is the issue.
Do your local fellowship leaders work with other Christians in the area like you see some here doing or not?
Ask your local leadership about Vision and Direction. Ask them how that has changed.
It is ridiculous to put a condition for evaluation of a side of history interaction with the one sided self protecting group who won’t interact but will go scorched earth proven by their recent actions.
It’s like saying Martin Luther was skewed and one sided because he stopped interacting with Catholic leadership.
It's been38 years since the Schoenheit paper melted everything down. That is more than a generation. Get current, is my suggestion.
You are truly delusional. They buried the Schoenheit paper and fired the guys who wrote and agreed with it. Nothing was melted down until the Allen lawsuit and the only reason that worked is due to waydale ... why? Thanks for asking....because the way international doesn't want the truth to get out to this very day. They were willing to pay millions to keep it off public record.
quote: included speculation that contradicted eyewitness accounts of what happened at the time, and skipped all the responsibility vpw had in the situation.
Eyewitness accounts, huh? Impossible that any of that was 'speculation', right? Speculation is not 'one size fits all'! At least I spent 18 years in TWI. How long were you in? 5 minutes? I was a twig coordinator, wow vet, advanced class grad, and I was trusted by TWI leadership to play music at many fellowships. Modest as that may seem, my speculation is way better than yours. All you got is 5 minutes and a perpetual witch hunt.
I totally agree with an unvarnished hate free history.
Changes are very slow and small, tiny even. Virtually imperceptible. Slow, tiny change requires patience.
Oh boy oh boy...now you are hitting that chewy caramel sinter....Ive heard so many excuses for TWI not changing and change is slow one is at the top of the list...my other favorite is you can't turn the titanic on a dime...I dont think they thought that one through very well...
quote: included speculation that contradicted eyewitness accounts of what happened at the time, and skipped all the responsibility vpw had in the situation.
Eyewitness accounts, huh? Impossible that any of that was 'speculation', right? Speculation is not 'one size fits all'! At least I spent 18 years in TWI. How long were you in? 5 minutes? I was a twig coordinator, wow vet, advanced class grad, and I was trusted by TWI leadership to play music at many fellowships. Modest as that may seem, my speculation is way better than yours. All you got is 5 minutes and a perpetual witch hunt.
I totally agree with an unvarnished hate free history.
Oh look mom...another endless geneology where johniam shows everyone how much more capable he is than everyone else who doesn't know better like he does....
I am one of the FEW grads who can fellowship with both sides, and try to get a more balanced handle on things.
Which begs the question: Since you're so interested in a balanced view, when a twig member, twig leader, or member of the Way staff goes on and on about what a great man Saint Vic was, do you remind them of all his misdeeds?
quote: included speculation that contradicted eyewitness accounts of what happened at the time, and skipped all the responsibility vpw had in the situation.
Eyewitness accounts, huh? Impossible that any of that was 'speculation', right? Speculation is not 'one size fits all'! At least I spent 18 years in TWI. How long were you in? 5 minutes? I was a twig coordinator, wow vet, advanced class grad, and I was trusted by TWI leadership to play music at many fellowships. Modest as that may seem, my speculation is way better than yours. All you got is 5 minutes and a perpetual witch hunt.
I totally agree with an unvarnished hate free history.
At least I spent 18 years in TWI. How long were you in? 5 minutes? I was a twig coordinator, wow vet, advanced class grad, and I was trusted by TWI leadership to play music at many fellowships. Modest as that may seem, my speculation is way better than yours. All you got is 5 minutes and a perpetual witch hunt.
Here Johniam employs another logic fallacy called a red herring where his "unvarnished" record of experience is introduced into the argument to silence and discredit dissent and also to get things off topic. Classic misdirection ploy.
Oh...and....lmao...he was trusted by TWI leadership to play music at fellowship....hes a real spiritual heavy weight...
Which begs the question: Since you're so interested in a balanced view, when a twig member, twig leader, or member of the Way staff goes on and on about what a greaat man Saint Vic was, do you remind them of all his misdeeds?
Or how he got so many things wrong. All his error in his “handling” of the text. His failure, after all those years and hours, to achieve even low level mastery of Greek or Hebrew… so, so many errors… the clear stupidity of four crucified…
Or how he got so many things wrong. All his error in his “handling” of the text. His failure, after all those years and hours, to achieve even low level mastery of Greek or Hebrew… so, so many errors… the clear stupidity of four crucified…
Well...all I can say is from following Mike's convoluted logic it's all our fault cause we REALLY just dont get it.
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Twinky
Mike. Get this clear. I hate no-one. I hate ABUSE. Agape thinks no evil? Right. Agape calls evil out!! And I'm calling out the abuse that occurred and likely still occurs. That's not hate
chockfull
Okay reading thru this I find it hard to believe the lack of empathy. Mike is always looking to run down anyone who went thru the Corps as a problem. Actually, I don't find it hard t believe. The w
OldSkool
Correct! But a Christian organization that is all about material abundance is not a Christian orginazation at all because that's not what Christianity is about and its shameful to even attach Christ n
chockfull
The history is not that complicated. There is a true version found here and not another version except Mrs VPW book covers early history.
What does TWI say regarding you taking on this endeavor? Do you have any support from them?
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waysider
No matter what anyone believes, Mayberry was never anything more than a fictional utopia.
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johniam
quote: Clearly, what he was pitching was the promise of material gain. No God needed, just follow the formula.
Everybody wants more money. We still use money. Some parts of life you have to navigate your way through and money is no help, but much of life you have to purchase your way through. You don't have to be a "religious cult" to encourage people to make more money.
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OldSkool
Correct! But a Christian organization that is all about material abundance is not a Christian orginazation at all because that's not what Christianity is about and its shameful to even attach Christ name to any organization that calls themselves Christian but preaches the damnable prosperity gospel. You can go make all the money you want in life and you can even do that as a Christian, but that's not the essence of Christianity.
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So_crates
True, you don't have to be a cult to encourage people to make more money. But with the Way it's bait and switch. When you start into the Way it's God will meet your needs and wait until you see the life God has planned for you. Then, when you've landed on your face a time or two and that abundant life doesn't manifest, suddenly it's: What? You thought they were physical? They actually spiritual.
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johniam
quote: Correct! But a Christian organization that is all about material abundance is not a Christian orginazation at all because that's not what Christianity is about and its shameful to even attach Christ name to any organization that calls themselves Christian but preaches the damnable prosperity gospel. You can go make all the money you want in life and you can even do that as a Christian, but that's not the essence of Christianity.
Christians are people. David was called a man after God's own heart and he wasn't Christian. He also did something that displeased the Lord in 2 Samuel 11:27. We're all like that too. To say they're not even Christian is just playing God.
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Nathan_Jr
Victor played God. Aren't we supposed to imitate him and stand on his shoulders?
He said you're not even Christian if you don't tithe, because tithing is the LEAST you should do as a Christian. Less than the least is nothing = not even Christian.
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OldSkool
Yes, and people can be Christian - moot point.
David wasn't a Christian because Christ was still future to David so how could he be Christian? Yet - he looked forward to the coming Messiah and God hasn't changed and God has never been about material abundance, though he can provide it, but thats not the essence of God - love and light yes - money no.
I didn't say anyone was Christian or not
I will say it again - shameful to even attach Christ name to any organization that calls themselves Christian but preaches the damnable prosperity gospel. Obviously, I am talking about the organization and not the people in it.
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waysider
Strawman.
But if you insist we shift in that direction, It's really not about people making more money. It's about people giving more money to the organization.
You really want make to make more money? Send me $20 and I'll tell you how.
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Twinky
Hahahaha! That is just never going to happen. GSC exists, as you are well aware, to tell "the other side" of the story. The greed, the abuse. The lies and theft. The adultery and rape. The "do as I say, not as I do" attitude. Whereas TWI purports to be whiter than white and refuses to acknowledge sins of the past, sins of the present, and likely sins of the future. Sins of the present and future, you say? Well, for one thing: what about the continuing division they foster - refusing to acknowledge "mainstream" Christians as even being Christians? And selfishly hoarding all to themselves and never giving back to their community?
And - Mike - you can't even see "the other side." You think everything's exaggerated. So how can you possibly write a balanced view? By the way, have you finished reading "the other side" as set out in Charlene's book yet?
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Mike
There is more than one version of the other side.
The religion-like, cult-like tactics that can happen often here in GreaseSpot cause much of your version of the other side to skew way off in the negative direction, JUST LIKE the twi version skews off in the whitewash/coverup direction.
I am one of the FEW grads who can fellowship with both sides, and try to get a more balanced handle on things.
*/*/*/*
Refusing to acknowledge "mainstream" Christians has evaporated in the local leadership, if they ever had that problem. I will find out more about how they are on this at HQ as I get to know them. I go to them to find out how they think. You might want try and reconnect with some to see for yourself what the CURRENT situation is there. It's been38 years since the Schoenheit paper melted everything down. That is more than a generation. Get current, is my suggestion.
*/*/*/*
You wrote:
"And - Mike - you can't even see "the other side." You think everything's exaggerated. So how can you possibly write a balanced view? By the way, have you finished reading "the other side" as set out in Charlene's book yet? "
I look at BOTH SIDES intensely, and personally, and face-to-face, telephone to telephone when possible. Can you say your research of the current is from evidence? Or is it from intense repetition of memory and speculation? Do you have ANY contact with even just one person there?
I work both sides intensely. I read MUCH that is posted here.
Yes I have resumed reading "Undertow" because in my reading here I picked up the news that it is more focused on the research end of the ministry, which I have some first hand understanding of, and feel half way competent to understand the issues deeply.
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OldSkool
You will never be able to figure that one out unless you see it for yourself, and you arent in their same caste. Why do you think everything with them is condidential? Its not like they are gaurding military secrets...why does a so called Christian ministry need so much secrecy?
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chockfull
Refusal to acknowledge mainstream Christianity is not the issue. An indoctrinating class series whose end result is isolating people off from all mainstream Christianity is the issue.
Do your local fellowship leaders work with other Christians in the area like you see some here doing or not?
Ask your local leadership about Vision and Direction. Ask them how that has changed.
It is ridiculous to put a condition for evaluation of a side of history interaction with the one sided self protecting group who won’t interact but will go scorched earth proven by their recent actions.
It’s like saying Martin Luther was skewed and one sided because he stopped interacting with Catholic leadership.
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OldSkool
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chockfull
Wow our historian notes 38 years since the Schoenheit paper.
Wow that certainly is a long time to bury a paper and the context of it.
When does the Way plan on publishing it and its context? Since you are wanting everybody to get current there’s a suggestion.
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Nathan_Jr
Changes are very slow and small, tiny even. Virtually imperceptible. Slow, tiny change requires patience.
Haven't you paid attention to anything Mike has said?
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johniam
quote: included speculation that contradicted eyewitness accounts of what happened at the time, and skipped all the responsibility vpw had in the situation.
Eyewitness accounts, huh? Impossible that any of that was 'speculation', right? Speculation is not 'one size fits all'! At least I spent 18 years in TWI. How long were you in? 5 minutes? I was a twig coordinator, wow vet, advanced class grad, and I was trusted by TWI leadership to play music at many fellowships. Modest as that may seem, my speculation is way better than yours. All you got is 5 minutes and a perpetual witch hunt.
I totally agree with an unvarnished hate free history.
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OldSkool
Oh boy oh boy...now you are hitting that chewy caramel sinter....Ive heard so many excuses for TWI not changing and change is slow one is at the top of the list...my other favorite is you can't turn the titanic on a dime...I dont think they thought that one through very well...
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OldSkool
Oh look mom...another endless geneology where johniam shows everyone how much more capable he is than everyone else who doesn't know better like he does....
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So_crates
Which begs the question: Since you're so interested in a balanced view, when a twig member, twig leader, or member of the Way staff goes on and on about what a great man Saint Vic was, do you remind them of all his misdeeds?
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Nathan_Jr
Who are you quoting?
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OldSkool
Here Johniam employs another logic fallacy called a red herring where his "unvarnished" record of experience is introduced into the argument to silence and discredit dissent and also to get things off topic. Classic misdirection ploy.
Oh...and....lmao...he was trusted by TWI leadership to play music at fellowship....hes a real spiritual heavy weight...
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Nathan_Jr
Or how he got so many things wrong. All his error in his “handling” of the text. His failure, after all those years and hours, to achieve even low level mastery of Greek or Hebrew… so, so many errors… the clear stupidity of four crucified…
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OldSkool
Well...all I can say is from following Mike's convoluted logic it's all our fault cause we REALLY just dont get it.
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