All you can really "know" about his [Saint Vic's] fellowship is what some devilish rumor mill teaches you for years and decades. I don't trust such teaching at all.
As you can plainly see, GSC is still considered a devilsh rumor mill when all it's doing is bringing to light the evil within the ministry.
If the Way was really interested in change, the would publicly announce the truth and not bury it under false accusations.
Despite claims of the truth being known, it will never happen because both Mike and whatever non-salaried member they think they can get to play cat's paw in revealing the truth knows the second they start their crusade the ministry will ostracize them.
As you can plainly see, GSC is still considered a devilsh rumor mill when all it's doing is bringing to light the evil within the ministry.
If the Way was really interested in change, the would publicly announce the truth and not bury it under false accusations.
Despite claims of the truth being known, it will never happen because both Mike and whatever non-salaried member they think they can get to play cat's paw in revealing the truth knows the second they start their crusade the ministry will ostracize them.
Yep, deja Vu all over again.
Speaking of "some devilish rumor mill..." that concept was, as I recall, endemic in the culture of twi in the 1970s and 1980s. Case in point, microwave ovens destroyed all of the nutritional content of food cooked in them.
I mean, who's bee-HIND did they pull that stuff out of?
Speaking of "some devilish rumor mill..." that concept was, as I recall, endemic in the culture of twi in the 1970s and 1980s. Case in point, microwave ovens destroyed all of the nutritional content of food cooked in them.
I mean, who's bee-HIND did they pull that stuff out of?
What I want to know is if I order my normal wedge salad that I prefer with a steak, and it never touches the microwave at all, am I still possessed?
Speaking of "some devilish rumor mill..." that concept was, as I recall, endemic in the culture of twi in the 1970s and 1980s. Case in point, microwave ovens destroyed all of the nutritional content of food cooked in them.
I mean, who's bee-HIND did they pull that stuff out of?
"Rumor mill" is actually a pretty good description of twi, and it has been for almost its entire history. vpw himself started that off- he listened in to the Liberty Lobby and John Birch Society and pretended all their stupid, baseless rumors were Divine Revelation, and people, of course, bought it.  lcm continued in that vein- he announced the Pope (the elderly John Paul II) had bought an aircraft carrier, and was about to go around and demand conversions by force. It was OBVIOUSLY false. Even if JP2 had been that type of person (he was not) and the RCC had that kind of LIQUID CAPITAL (it does not and did not), first of all, it would need someone willing to sell an operational aircraft carrier to them. Then, once they took ownership, the next, rather obvious problem would come up. Who would CREW the thing?  The closest thing to crew would be the Swiss Guard. All of them together wouldn't be enough to man an aircraft carrier, and they're from a landlocked country whose "navy" patrols lakes and rivers.
Â
For that matter, inside twi, I heard all sorts of unverified rumors that turned out to be completely false. People bought into them, and passed them along. In the case of one, I thought the person passing it along had actually been an eyewitness- but it was an event that never happened.   In all my life, I've never seen a group of people half as gullible to rumors as I did when I was in twi. Obviously, that hasn't changed.Â
And they're calling the GSC a "rumor mill"?  Well, lcm was fond of saying that the devil's minions often accuse God's people of the things they themselves (the devil's minions) do- like saying Jesus cast out demons by a prince of demons.  So, really, this should surprise nobody now.   They're willingly taking on the role in people's lives that normally might be "reserved" for the devil's minions.Â
Once I was introduced to the Snopes website, I spent months reading every story they had up. They did a very thorough job of disproving all sorts of rumors and tall tales, complete with documentation.  Most of the stories I had to unlearn were stories I'd heard in twi.   I recommend any twi survivor to spend some time there.
As you can plainly see, GSC is still considered a devilsh rumor mill when all it's doing is bringing to light the evil within the ministry.
Which is a really good and long standing point. I remember well martindale going slap tf off regarding followers spenging time on the internet. That was a huge no-no. At first I thought he was right because I didn't know there was anything duplicitous about TWI and anything said online would have been slanderous. Boy was I wrong. Fast forward maybe a year...maybe a little less the allen lawsuit exploded and Craig was doing a phone hookup where he admitted to having a mutually conesensual extra-marital affair with F. @ll3n. And still I believed the jive...I literally believed that soup. I had no idea there was a systemic problem with adultery in TWI. Then going forward with rosalie, who HATED the internet: So why did she hate the internet? Rosalie considered it a form of dirty communication. Put that in perspective: the only dirty communication regarding TWI on the internet is where people have come forward and exposed what was going on with TWI, the adultery, the abuse that was rampant but the dirt was the way international's dirt.
Now, I don't know what the current line of garbage is discrediting the internet. Since TWI feels like they have distanced themselves from the scandals of the early 2000s Im sure it's along the lines of "bringing up the past" type warnings. The way internatinal has positioned themselves to blame craig martindale for all the adultery that was rampant amongst the corps and especially the president of twi, which traces back to wierwille and TWI doesnt want that known. So martindale is rosalies fall guy and wierwille is their whitewashed bronze statued idol, and according to TWI, we here at GSC are likely just a bunch of old bitter cop outs rehashing the past. The only problem with that narrative is the people who whitewashed and hid the scandals are still in power. John Rupp for example. He was at the forefront of the coverup. Any organization that's truly operating with Biblical ethics will not try to hide sin. They would address it publicly and honestly with an explanation for how it happened and would also institute changes that would address the problems so they do not happen again. But the way international is not honest at all. They intentionally hide, whitewash the past, cover the errors and all to preserve their positions of power and paychecks, though those paychecks may be meager they still provide a living off the golden calf. Not to mention they have been editing and re-editing their classes and publication for well over 25 years (likely closer to 40 years) to remove all the lunacy that wierwille and martindale spewed and also to hide the blatant plagaraisism thats would be readily appearant in the uneditied versions. John Jeudes is a good example of someone who has taken earlier twi publications and showed line by line where they were copied from.
Oh --- edited this post to be clear that the method the way international has used to address the adulterous affairs, and other systemic issues is to teach classes. For example, the came out with living Gods Word as a family. In that class they set out proper Christian frameworks for sex, marriage, husband of one wife, etc. So Rosalie felt the way to handle error was to "teach to it".
What do you guys think?
Is putting out classes that address the problems indirectly while whitewashing the past and hiring attorneys for guidance on how to operate a cult legally an honest, godly, ethical manner for a so called Christian ministry to operate?
Case in point, microwave ovens destroyed all of the nutritional content of food cooked in them.
That particular one came via Grace B*#ss. Now, where she got it, I have no idea.
Â
Microwave ovens do reduce SOME nutritional content, such as vitamin C and Vitamin B... as does ANY food preparation method that involves heat.
Some vegetables, such as carrots, peppers, cabbage and more, become a better source of nutrition when they're cooked because the process releases antioxidants, such as ferulic acid and carotenoids. Softening some hard vegetables, by cooking them, also enables the body to more easily absorb them. Eggs become a much better source of protein when they are heated.
Â
In reality, microwave ovens are often a better cooking method, if the goal is to retain nutrition, because they have a shorter cooking time.
Which is a really good and long standing point. I remember well martindale going slap tf off regarding followers spenging time on the internet. That was a huge no-no. At first I thought he was right because I didn't know there was anything duplicitous about TWI and anything said online would have been slanderous. Boy was I wrong. Fast forward maybe a year...maybe a little less the allen lawsuit exploded and Craig was doing a phone hookup where he admitted to having a mutually conesensual extra-marital affair with F. @ll3n. And still I believed the jive...I literally believed that soup. I had no idea there was a systemic problem with adultery in TWI. Then going forward with rosalie, who HATED the internet: So why did she hate the internet? Rosalie considered it a form of dirty communication. Put that in perspective: the only dirty communication regarding TWI on the internet is where people have come forward and exposed what was going on with TWI, the adultery, the abuse that was rampant but the dirt was the way international's dirt.
Now, I don't know what the current line of garbage is discrediting the internet. Since TWI feels like they have distanced themselves from the scandals of the early 2000s Im sure it's along the lines of "bringing up the past" type warnings. The way internatinal has positioned themselves to blame craig martindale for all the adultery that was rampant amongst the corps and especially the president of twi, which traces back to wierwille and TWI doesnt want that known. So martindale is rosalies fall guy and wierwille is their whitewashed bronze statued idol, and according to TWI, we here at GSC are likely just a bunch of old bitter cop outs rehashing the past. The only problem with that narrative is the people who whitewashed and hid the scandals are still in power. John Rupp for example. He was at the forefront of the coverup. Any organization that's truly operating with Biblical ethics will not try to hide sin. They would address it publicly and honestly with an explanation for how it happened and would also institute changes that would address the problems so they do not happen again. But the way international is not honest at all. They intentionally hide, whitewash the past, cover the errors and all to preserve their positions of power and paychecks, though those paychecks may be meager they still provide a living off the golden calf. Not to mention they have been editing and re-editing their classes and publication for well over 25 years (likely closer to 40 years) to remove all the lunacy that wierwille and martindale spewed and also to hide the blatant plagaraisism thats would be readily appearant in the uneditied versions. John Jeudes is a good example of someone who has taken earlier twi publications and showed line by line where they were copied from.
Oh --- edited this post to be clear that the method the way international has used to address the adulterous affairs, and other systemic issues is to teach classes. For example, the came out with living Gods Word as a family. In that class they set out proper Christian frameworks for sex, marriage, husband of one wife, etc. So Rosalie felt the way to handle error was to "teach to it".
What do you guys think?
Is putting out classes that address the problems indirectly while whitewashing the past and hiring attorneys for guidance on how to operate a cult legally an honest, godly, ethical manner for a so called Christian ministry to operate?
Â
The same people can also google "affairs are good for marriage". And find justification there.
Is putting out classes that address the problems indirectly while whitewashing the past and hiring attorneys for guidance on how to operate a cult legally an honest, godly, ethical manner for a so called Christian ministry to operate?
Maybe - if if if - if - they acknowledge that in the past they haven't addressed this and made it clear [as if they need to!] that adultery is wrong in God's eyes, and so is other abuse not infrequently found in such close personal relationships. And if they apologise for what they condoned, even encouraged, in the past. And if, going forward, they stamp hard on such out-of-line behaviour - and are seen to do so.
In reality, I don't see any of those things happening.
I wonder if they even now have any procedures to report inappropriate behaviour? I see nothing on their website, no safeguarding or security policy, call it what you will. What structures have they put in place to ensure that this behaviour does not take place any more? And who else have they castigated for doing this hitherto? Because it wasn't just Craig alone, as we all know.
All churches in the UK now have Safeguarding policies and a nominated Safeguarding Officer, to whom abuse or suspected abuse/inappropriate behaviour can be reported. This is investigated carefully and discreetly, outside the church setting, reporting to an overseeing body/the diocese/external oversight - especially important if the alleged behaviour is done by clergy. Outcomes obviously depend on what is found, what is substantiated. Can result in de-frocking (removal of clergy rights), or referral to police if serious abuse/imprisonable behaviour is found.
So... With an organisation that insulates itself from outside scrutiny, who could be trusted to deal with any allegations of inappropriate behaviour?
Â
They know how to find us, if they want to apologise publicly.
wonder if they even now have any procedures to report inappropriate behaviour? I see nothing on their website, no safeguarding or security policy, call it what you will. What structures have they put in place to ensure that this behaviour does not take place any more? And who else have they castigated for doing this hitherto? Because it wasn't just Craig alone, as we all know.
Great post, thx for the reply. They did add an anti-harassment, detailing sexual harassment,to the staff handbook...does that count?
Maybe - if if if - if - they acknowledge that in the past they haven't addressed this and made it clear [as if they need to!] that adultery is wrong in God's eyes, and so is other abuse not infrequently found in such close personal relationships. And if they apologise for what they condoned, even encouraged, in the past. And if, going forward, they stamp hard on such out-of-line behaviour - and are seen to do so.
In reality, I don't see any of those things happening.
I wonder if they even now have any procedures to report inappropriate behaviour? I see nothing on their website, no safeguarding or security policy, call it what you will. What structures have they put in place to ensure that this behaviour does not take place any more? And who else have they castigated for doing this hitherto? Because it wasn't just Craig alone, as we all know.
All churches in the UK now have Safeguarding policies and a nominated Safeguarding Officer, to whom abuse or suspected abuse/inappropriate behaviour can be reported. This is investigated carefully and discreetly, outside the church setting, reporting to an overseeing body/the diocese/external oversight - especially important if the alleged behaviour is done by clergy. Outcomes obviously depend on what is found, what is substantiated. Can result in de-frocking (removal of clergy rights), or referral to police if serious abuse/imprisonable behaviour is found.
So... With an organisation that insulates itself from outside scrutiny, who could be trusted to deal with any allegations of inappropriate behaviour?
Â
They know how to find us, if they want to apologise publicly.
I agree. Every single public company I’m aware of has an ethics hotline.  A dedicated path for reporting and dealing with sexual harassment, discrimination, and other out of bounds behavior.
In TWI they never had this. Â Except people know to write slanderous letters about others to the BOD to trigger action which they do.
No separate path to communicate leaders ethics problems. Â Except the leadership themselves. Â
So no, whether or not the current leadership has a Harley and a harem doesn’t really play into it.  Is the structure in place there to prevent it in the future?  No it is not.
Actually upon further reflection adding an ethics hotline in to TWI HQ would be like a screen door on a submarine.
As you can plainly see, GSC is still considered a devilsh rumor mill when all it's doing is bringing to light the evil within the ministry.
If the Way was really interested in change, the would publicly announce the truth and not bury it under false accusations.
Despite claims of the truth being known, it will never happen because both Mike and whatever non-salaried member they think they can get to play cat's paw in revealing the truth knows the second they start their crusade the ministry will ostracize them.
Yep, deja Vu all over again.
There is exactly zero from preventing those d1ckh3ads from coming here and engaging directly themselves.Â
Great post, thx for the reply. They did add an anti-harassment, detailing sexual harassment,to the staff handbook...does that count?
How much do you think they paid out of the ABS to get Baker and Hostetler to give them this advice which would be standard to avoid challenging the non profit status?
Great post, thx for the reply. They did add an anti-harassment, detailing sexual harassment,to the staff handbook...does that count?
No, that is not enough.
And, Twinky, I too thought that was a great post.
OldSkool, the passage from you that Twinky quoted in her post was also good.
I have been discussing with a few TWI leaders scattered about the country this exact thing, and I have brought it up here how other companies accomplish what TWI needs to do in this area.Â
Your phrase "teach to it" seems to capture the essence of my proposal, but I think it might be tweakable to make it even more efficacious. Right now, as is, it is pretty effective.
Maybe the phrase "teach it away" referring to the 14 Appendixes in the Schoenheit paper.
The proposal I have made to several TWI leaders (not all official leaders, but all long-standing and smart) is what all high tech companies use for handling changes in complicated, highly detailed products. I'm talking about ECNs, or Engineering Change Notices. I've been writting about this for so long now that I have learned to spell Schoenheit correctly!
An ECN is a written memo to all department heads, who then distribute it to all those who need it. In this case of sex crimes, that would include pretty much everyone who is not a paraplegic or worse. But even they (if any exist) could use the info, if only to minister it to others.
An ECN in the manufacturing sector has two main sections, what the old (and now incorrect) way or method was, and what the new and correct way to do it. Both are necessary, for ultimate clarity.Â
An ECN never contains any blame or history as to why the change was made. None of that is necessary to get the new policy implemented. However, there may be a department that DOES investigate how it went wrong, or why the old inefficient method was chosen, so that they might avoid similar inefficiencies in the future.
*/*/*/*/*
When the Scheonheit paper was suppressed I knew for sure that the problems at HQ were very big in this area. TWI may be trying to wait it all out till all those within TWI still harboring the old wrong policy die off. Similarly, for all the offended ones who left TWI and are a lawsuit waiting to happen, waiting for them to die off may be part of their silence plan.Â
I am operating within 1 Cor.13, and doing my best to think no evil here when I discuss the Schoenheit paper with them.
The method I depend on is love. I reject the sledghammer approach favored here. Hate gets us nowhere, and it makes the hater become what is focused on as a hate object. Look at how 20 years of hating me have gotten you all nowhere! It just gives me that obiwankenobi greater strength every time to resist your attacks on me even better. Have you had ANY results deprogramming anyone out of the errors from TWI with hate and less than loving techniques?Â
I genuinely love those people, as I genuinely love the believers here. I see both sides as dug in and un-hearing of each other. But that standoff started to crack when Rosalie left, and I now have inroads of loving discussions going on with leaders. Who wants to experiment with the approach to see change within TWI? OR, do you like having an imovable, predictable enemy in your Christian brothers and sisters still in TWI?
How many "members" of TWI do you (rhetorical plural) hang out with and discuss things in a civil manner? Do you have ANY fellowship or civil discussions with TWI people? If it is zero, then WHY? Why not try the love way?
If it is zero, then my suggestions to you all are a new approach, an un-turned stone.
You you want any solutions, or would a solution to this problem disrupt the hate religion, the anti-idol worship, that is so loved by many here? Hate blinds people, it's time to open eyes here and try some better methods.
Hate blinds, people!
1 John 2: 9-11
Anyone who claims to be in the light
but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness.
Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light,
and there is nothing in them to make them stumble.
But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness
and walks around in the darkness.
They do not know where they are going,
because the darkness has blinded them.
As you can plainly see, GSC is still considered a devilsh rumor mill when all it's doing is bringing to light the evil within the ministry.
Actually GSC is late to the party. Ralph D and John L beat GSC to the punch by over 10 years in 1987, and then 1989-98. Then GSC did a good job duplicating Waydale for posterity, and published the Schoenheit paper, and then discussed it for years and years. All that happened 20 and 25 years ago. It is NOW (and I think mainly only on the About the Way forum) that GSC repeats and repeats all the same basic messages, and with less and less love every year.Â
The exposition of the problem has been accomplished LONG AGO!
It is high time to start looking for loving solutions, because continuing the more and more hateful approach to force change there is just ruining the haters with blindness.
It is high time to start looking for loving solutions, because continuing the more and more hateful approach to force change there is just ruining the haters with blindness.
The Way is not going to change, Mike. They've had multiple decades and countless opportunities to enact real change. It's delusional to think they will.. If you genuinely want to help people, as you say you do, stop promoting The Way's toxic agenda.
Â
This is not a hateful diatribe. I'm simply presenting you with the truth of the matter. Whether or not you choose to accept that is a decision only you can make.
No, it is changing its PERSONNEL, and the policies changes are following (slowly).
No, as you've said before, they are talking about change, there's a difference. How long do you think they'd let me talk about paying for the class or giving my 10%?
Talk is cheap. Let me know when there's some action. I won't hold my breath.
Actually GSC is late to the party. Ralph D and John L beat GSC to the punch by over 10 years in 1987, and then 1989-98. Then GSC did a good job duplicating Waydale for posterity, and published the Schoenheit paper, and then discussed it for years and years. All that happened 20 and 25 years ago. It is NOW (and I think mainly only on the About the Way forum) that GSC repeats and repeats all the same basic messages, and with less and less love every year.Â
The exposition of the problem has been accomplished LONG AGO!
It is high time to start looking for loving solutions, because continuing the more and more hateful approach to force change there is just ruining the haters with blindness.
The hate is failing.
Exposing the problem is a done deal.
Really?!
And what about taking the first step, admitting there was a problem? Until then they obviously need to be reminded by having the problem constantly exposed.
Wrong! The real threat of lawsuits and bankruptcy are a looming thread.
Are you blind to that?
You get an "F" in your math.Â
They also have to consider the hearts of new Christians there.
Yes, you ARE blind, to these two huge blocks to them moving fast on this.
Â
Ohhhhh you mean the real threat of facing up to the actual consequences of actions?
No not blind it’s just that their extreme allergy to do anything resembling accountability is telling over 2 decades.  So not waiting around another 2 decades for them to maybe wake up.
They only changed the employee handbook under threat of legal action. Â
The hearts of the new Christian’s?  Lmfao.  You mean the ones in the process of being converted over to cult Christianity?  It would be better off for them to seek a different org entirely.
They did add an anti-harassment, detailing sexual harassment, to the staff handbook...does that count?
No. Any such policy needs to be available to any person involved at any level.Â
That means from twig (home fellowship, is it now?) level upwards. If someone is over-touchy at twig, who should that be reported to? Twig leader, initially, but if no response there - or if it is the twig leader? Â
If someone is on staff, there needs to be a clear path to whistle-blow on offenders. And that's a clear path to someone with appropriate authority to take serious action. Preferably someone external.
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Charity
I have to strongly disagree with you using words like "sledgehammer, hate, rumor mills and loving anti-idol worship" (not sure what it is but it sounds bad). Posters on GSC are not dealing with rainbo
chockfull
What I want to know is if I order my normal wedge salad that I prefer with a steak, and it never touches the microwave at all, am I still possessed?
WordWolf
"Rumor mill" is actually a pretty good description of twi, and it has been for almost its entire history. vpw himself started that off- he listened in to the Liberty Lobby and John Birch Society and p
So_crates
As you can plainly see, GSC is still considered a devilsh rumor mill when all it's doing is bringing to light the evil within the ministry.
If the Way was really interested in change, the would publicly announce the truth and not bury it under false accusations.
Despite claims of the truth being known, it will never happen because both Mike and whatever non-salaried member they think they can get to play cat's paw in revealing the truth knows the second they start their crusade the ministry will ostracize them.
Yep, deja Vu all over again.
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Rocky
Speaking of "some devilish rumor mill..." that concept was, as I recall, endemic in the culture of twi in the 1970s and 1980s. Case in point, microwave ovens destroyed all of the nutritional content of food cooked in them.
I mean, who's bee-HIND did they pull that stuff out of?
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chockfull
What I want to know is if I order my normal wedge salad that I prefer with a steak, and it never touches the microwave at all, am I still possessed?
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WordWolf
"Rumor mill" is actually a pretty good description of twi, and it has been for almost its entire history. vpw himself started that off- he listened in to the Liberty Lobby and John Birch Society and pretended all their stupid, baseless rumors were Divine Revelation, and people, of course, bought it.  lcm continued in that vein- he announced the Pope (the elderly John Paul II) had bought an aircraft carrier, and was about to go around and demand conversions by force. It was OBVIOUSLY false. Even if JP2 had been that type of person (he was not) and the RCC had that kind of LIQUID CAPITAL (it does not and did not), first of all, it would need someone willing to sell an operational aircraft carrier to them. Then, once they took ownership, the next, rather obvious problem would come up. Who would CREW the thing?  The closest thing to crew would be the Swiss Guard. All of them together wouldn't be enough to man an aircraft carrier, and they're from a landlocked country whose "navy" patrols lakes and rivers.
Â
For that matter, inside twi, I heard all sorts of unverified rumors that turned out to be completely false. People bought into them, and passed them along. In the case of one, I thought the person passing it along had actually been an eyewitness- but it was an event that never happened.   In all my life, I've never seen a group of people half as gullible to rumors as I did when I was in twi. Obviously, that hasn't changed.Â
And they're calling the GSC a "rumor mill"?  Well, lcm was fond of saying that the devil's minions often accuse God's people of the things they themselves (the devil's minions) do- like saying Jesus cast out demons by a prince of demons.  So, really, this should surprise nobody now.   They're willingly taking on the role in people's lives that normally might be "reserved" for the devil's minions.Â
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WordWolf
Once I was introduced to the Snopes website, I spent months reading every story they had up. They did a very thorough job of disproving all sorts of rumors and tall tales, complete with documentation.  Most of the stories I had to unlearn were stories I'd heard in twi.   I recommend any twi survivor to spend some time there.
https://www.snopes.com/sitemap/
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OldSkool
Which is a really good and long standing point. I remember well martindale going slap tf off regarding followers spenging time on the internet. That was a huge no-no. At first I thought he was right because I didn't know there was anything duplicitous about TWI and anything said online would have been slanderous. Boy was I wrong. Fast forward maybe a year...maybe a little less the allen lawsuit exploded and Craig was doing a phone hookup where he admitted to having a mutually conesensual extra-marital affair with F. @ll3n. And still I believed the jive...I literally believed that soup. I had no idea there was a systemic problem with adultery in TWI. Then going forward with rosalie, who HATED the internet: So why did she hate the internet? Rosalie considered it a form of dirty communication. Put that in perspective: the only dirty communication regarding TWI on the internet is where people have come forward and exposed what was going on with TWI, the adultery, the abuse that was rampant but the dirt was the way international's dirt.
Now, I don't know what the current line of garbage is discrediting the internet. Since TWI feels like they have distanced themselves from the scandals of the early 2000s Im sure it's along the lines of "bringing up the past" type warnings. The way internatinal has positioned themselves to blame craig martindale for all the adultery that was rampant amongst the corps and especially the president of twi, which traces back to wierwille and TWI doesnt want that known. So martindale is rosalies fall guy and wierwille is their whitewashed bronze statued idol, and according to TWI, we here at GSC are likely just a bunch of old bitter cop outs rehashing the past. The only problem with that narrative is the people who whitewashed and hid the scandals are still in power. John Rupp for example. He was at the forefront of the coverup. Any organization that's truly operating with Biblical ethics will not try to hide sin. They would address it publicly and honestly with an explanation for how it happened and would also institute changes that would address the problems so they do not happen again. But the way international is not honest at all. They intentionally hide, whitewash the past, cover the errors and all to preserve their positions of power and paychecks, though those paychecks may be meager they still provide a living off the golden calf. Not to mention they have been editing and re-editing their classes and publication for well over 25 years (likely closer to 40 years) to remove all the lunacy that wierwille and martindale spewed and also to hide the blatant plagaraisism thats would be readily appearant in the uneditied versions. John Jeudes is a good example of someone who has taken earlier twi publications and showed line by line where they were copied from.
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/tw_founder.htm
Â
Oh --- edited this post to be clear that the method the way international has used to address the adulterous affairs, and other systemic issues is to teach classes. For example, the came out with living Gods Word as a family. In that class they set out proper Christian frameworks for sex, marriage, husband of one wife, etc. So Rosalie felt the way to handle error was to "teach to it".
What do you guys think?
Is putting out classes that address the problems indirectly while whitewashing the past and hiring attorneys for guidance on how to operate a cult legally an honest, godly, ethical manner for a so called Christian ministry to operate?
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waysider
That particular one came via Grace B*#ss. Now, where she got it, I have no idea.
Â
Microwave ovens do reduce SOME nutritional content, such as vitamin C and Vitamin B... as does ANY food preparation method that involves heat.
Some vegetables, such as carrots, peppers, cabbage and more, become a better source of nutrition when they're cooked because the process releases antioxidants, such as ferulic acid and carotenoids. Softening some hard vegetables, by cooking them, also enables the body to more easily absorb them. Eggs become a much better source of protein when they are heated.
Â
In reality, microwave ovens are often a better cooking method, if the goal is to retain nutrition, because they have a shorter cooking time.
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Bolshevik
Â
The same people can also google "affairs are good for marriage". And find justification there.
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Twinky
Maybe - if if if - if - they acknowledge that in the past they haven't addressed this and made it clear [as if they need to!] that adultery is wrong in God's eyes, and so is other abuse not infrequently found in such close personal relationships. And if they apologise for what they condoned, even encouraged, in the past. And if, going forward, they stamp hard on such out-of-line behaviour - and are seen to do so.
In reality, I don't see any of those things happening.
I wonder if they even now have any procedures to report inappropriate behaviour? I see nothing on their website, no safeguarding or security policy, call it what you will. What structures have they put in place to ensure that this behaviour does not take place any more? And who else have they castigated for doing this hitherto? Because it wasn't just Craig alone, as we all know.
All churches in the UK now have Safeguarding policies and a nominated Safeguarding Officer, to whom abuse or suspected abuse/inappropriate behaviour can be reported. This is investigated carefully and discreetly, outside the church setting, reporting to an overseeing body/the diocese/external oversight - especially important if the alleged behaviour is done by clergy. Outcomes obviously depend on what is found, what is substantiated. Can result in de-frocking (removal of clergy rights), or referral to police if serious abuse/imprisonable behaviour is found.
So... With an organisation that insulates itself from outside scrutiny, who could be trusted to deal with any allegations of inappropriate behaviour?
Â
They know how to find us, if they want to apologise publicly.
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OldSkool
Great post, thx for the reply. They did add an anti-harassment, detailing sexual harassment,to the staff handbook...does that count?
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chockfull
I agree. Every single public company I’m aware of has an ethics hotline.  A dedicated path for reporting and dealing with sexual harassment, discrimination, and other out of bounds behavior.
In TWI they never had this. Â Except people know to write slanderous letters about others to the BOD to trigger action which they do.
No separate path to communicate leaders ethics problems. Â Except the leadership themselves. Â
So no, whether or not the current leadership has a Harley and a harem doesn’t really play into it.  Is the structure in place there to prevent it in the future?  No it is not.
Actually upon further reflection adding an ethics hotline in to TWI HQ would be like a screen door on a submarine.
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chockfull
There is exactly zero from preventing those d1ckh3ads from coming here and engaging directly themselves.Â
They are interested in their power not truth.
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chockfull
How much do you think they paid out of the ABS to get Baker and Hostetler to give them this advice which would be standard to avoid challenging the non profit status?
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Mike
No, that is not enough.
And, Twinky, I too thought that was a great post.
OldSkool, the passage from you that Twinky quoted in her post was also good.
I have been discussing with a few TWI leaders scattered about the country this exact thing, and I have brought it up here how other companies accomplish what TWI needs to do in this area.Â
Your phrase "teach to it" seems to capture the essence of my proposal, but I think it might be tweakable to make it even more efficacious. Right now, as is, it is pretty effective.
Maybe the phrase "teach it away" referring to the 14 Appendixes in the Schoenheit paper.
The proposal I have made to several TWI leaders (not all official leaders, but all long-standing and smart) is what all high tech companies use for handling changes in complicated, highly detailed products. I'm talking about ECNs, or Engineering Change Notices. I've been writting about this for so long now that I have learned to spell Schoenheit correctly!
An ECN is a written memo to all department heads, who then distribute it to all those who need it. In this case of sex crimes, that would include pretty much everyone who is not a paraplegic or worse. But even they (if any exist) could use the info, if only to minister it to others.
An ECN in the manufacturing sector has two main sections, what the old (and now incorrect) way or method was, and what the new and correct way to do it. Both are necessary, for ultimate clarity.Â
An ECN never contains any blame or history as to why the change was made. None of that is necessary to get the new policy implemented. However, there may be a department that DOES investigate how it went wrong, or why the old inefficient method was chosen, so that they might avoid similar inefficiencies in the future.
*/*/*/*/*
When the Scheonheit paper was suppressed I knew for sure that the problems at HQ were very big in this area. TWI may be trying to wait it all out till all those within TWI still harboring the old wrong policy die off. Similarly, for all the offended ones who left TWI and are a lawsuit waiting to happen, waiting for them to die off may be part of their silence plan.Â
I am operating within 1 Cor.13, and doing my best to think no evil here when I discuss the Schoenheit paper with them.
The method I depend on is love. I reject the sledghammer approach favored here. Hate gets us nowhere, and it makes the hater become what is focused on as a hate object. Look at how 20 years of hating me have gotten you all nowhere! It just gives me that obiwankenobi greater strength every time to resist your attacks on me even better. Have you had ANY results deprogramming anyone out of the errors from TWI with hate and less than loving techniques?Â
I genuinely love those people, as I genuinely love the believers here. I see both sides as dug in and un-hearing of each other. But that standoff started to crack when Rosalie left, and I now have inroads of loving discussions going on with leaders. Who wants to experiment with the approach to see change within TWI? OR, do you like having an imovable, predictable enemy in your Christian brothers and sisters still in TWI?
How many "members" of TWI do you (rhetorical plural) hang out with and discuss things in a civil manner? Do you have ANY fellowship or civil discussions with TWI people? If it is zero, then WHY? Why not try the love way?
If it is zero, then my suggestions to you all are a new approach, an un-turned stone.
You you want any solutions, or would a solution to this problem disrupt the hate religion, the anti-idol worship, that is so loved by many here? Hate blinds people, it's time to open eyes here and try some better methods.
Hate blinds, people!
1 John 2: 9-11
Anyone who claims to be in the light
but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness.
Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light,
and there is nothing in them to make them stumble.
But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness
and walks around in the darkness.
They do not know where they are going,
because the darkness has blinded them.
Â
Â
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Mike
No, it is changing its PERSONNEL, and the policies changes are following (slowly).
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Mike
Wrong! The real threat of lawsuits and bankruptcy are a looming thread.
Are you blind to that?
You get an "F" in your math.Â
They also have to consider the hearts of new Christians there.
Yes, you ARE blind, to these two huge blocks to them moving fast on this.
Â
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waysider
Ten pounds of poop in a five pound sack.
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Mike
Actually GSC is late to the party. Ralph D and John L beat GSC to the punch by over 10 years in 1987, and then 1989-98. Then GSC did a good job duplicating Waydale for posterity, and published the Schoenheit paper, and then discussed it for years and years. All that happened 20 and 25 years ago. It is NOW (and I think mainly only on the About the Way forum) that GSC repeats and repeats all the same basic messages, and with less and less love every year.Â
The exposition of the problem has been accomplished LONG AGO!
It is high time to start looking for loving solutions, because continuing the more and more hateful approach to force change there is just ruining the haters with blindness.
The hate is failing.
Exposing the problem is a done deal.
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waysider
The Way is not going to change, Mike. They've had multiple decades and countless opportunities to enact real change. It's delusional to think they will.. If you genuinely want to help people, as you say you do, stop promoting The Way's toxic agenda.
Â
This is not a hateful diatribe. I'm simply presenting you with the truth of the matter. Whether or not you choose to accept that is a decision only you can make.
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So_crates
No, as you've said before, they are talking about change, there's a difference. How long do you think they'd let me talk about paying for the class or giving my 10%?
Talk is cheap. Let me know when there's some action. I won't hold my breath.
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So_crates
Really?!
And what about taking the first step, admitting there was a problem? Until then they obviously need to be reminded by having the problem constantly exposed.
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chockfull
Ohhhhh you mean the real threat of facing up to the actual consequences of actions?
No not blind it’s just that their extreme allergy to do anything resembling accountability is telling over 2 decades.  So not waiting around another 2 decades for them to maybe wake up.
They only changed the employee handbook under threat of legal action. Â
The hearts of the new Christian’s?  Lmfao.  You mean the ones in the process of being converted over to cult Christianity?  It would be better off for them to seek a different org entirely.
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Twinky
No. Any such policy needs to be available to any person involved at any level.Â
That means from twig (home fellowship, is it now?) level upwards. If someone is over-touchy at twig, who should that be reported to? Twig leader, initially, but if no response there - or if it is the twig leader? Â
If someone is on staff, there needs to be a clear path to whistle-blow on offenders. And that's a clear path to someone with appropriate authority to take serious action. Preferably someone external.
Yeah, right...!
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chockfull
Actually they CAN and DO move very quickly.
You saw none of this dragging motion after the RNR folks posted up their confrontation and demands.
The shunning occurred fairly immediately.
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