Sounds like what we're trying to do for Mike. I don't wanna sound antagonistic...but I'm not sugar coating anything either.
Exactly that. Not trying to be mean but there is a certain level of cognition needed to read a verse and determine the nouns and verbs to see who the actors are.
Saying Numbers 11 proves that spirit can only talk to spirit is very far from any logical cognition necessary to carry on much of a conversation.
I wonder if the new class teachers have all their logic bound up like this in a similar fashion where they just block out any apparent inconsistency in VPs teachings and go on thickly.
One thing I learned from imitating victor and standing on his shoulders is one can MAKE the Bible say say anything at all with enough fudging and imagination, because this is how (H-O-W) he did it.
Victor showed me one can BELEEEEVE the Bible to say what one wants it to say. It will say what vic says, if one BELEEEVES it will.
One thing I learned from imitating victor and standing on his shoulders is one can MAKE the Bible say say anything at all with enough fudging and imagination, because this is how (H-O-W) he did it.
Victor showed me one can BELEEEEVE the Bible to say what one wants it to say. It will say what vic says, if one BELEEEVES it will.
Lo shonta koala!
ma shonta la seetay Didgeridoo!
Its easy...just read a scripture thats somewhat resembles whay u want it to say, redefine a few key concepts, then just tell them what you want it to say! Ole vic made millions and millions off that ploy....his keeds are still living off it today.
Before the beginning....(Skip to 8:05, if you so choose.)
I took your advice...profound...there is my life before that moment....there was a huge enduring bellylaugh.....then there is my life going forward...lmao!
I think you are on the right track here to answering Oakspear's question.
It looks to me that the serpent's seed is counterfeit, and only resembles what God was planning.
My answer to Oakspear is that with lots of close fellowshipping with the adversary, a human's mind-goals and buttons and triggers become well known to the adversary. With such detailed info the adversary can possess the man's mind and muscles to do exactly what is desired, and whenever it is wanted. It is a breakdown of all the biological protections against possession that God built into our DNA.
So, how did Satan know what God planned? He would have to in order to counterfeit it. Or did Satan just luck out?
As you recall, Paul told us the new birth was a great mystery to those before Christ.
Reading the rest of the thread, I see I'm not the only one to notice this glaring error. I also notice you never answered it.
Ok, then. Show me that connection from scripture...betcha ya cant do it....because there is nothing in scripture anywhere ever that says spirit can only talk to spirit.
6 hours ago, Mike said:
Numbers 11
24 And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the Lord, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.
25 And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!
Mike attempts to make a confused and incoherent correlation by quoting from Numbers 11:
25 And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
~ ~ ~ ~
Note Mike bold-types the texts that come closest to “spirit” and “talk” – except “talk” isn’t mentioned in the passages – but the word “prophesied” is. And it’s people prophesying to people-NOT spirit talking to spirit. Numbers 11 does NOTHINGto support wierwille’s bull$hit that God is spirit and can only talk to spirit.
My new favorite cop out is REALLY. When the gloves just won't fit, you've got to REALLY make them fit.
Spirit can't REALLY....
You are REALLY born again...
God can't REALLY...
Well, maybe my REAL favorite cop outs are all the asserted opinionated claims of what God can or cannot REALLY do. Who or what is this little god who seems so powerless and ineffectual against the adversary? Seriously, WITAF does victor mean when he says "god."
I often like to think of what life was like for Jesus, when he was growing up.
There is SO much comfort in knowing that he went through all the trials we go through.
That would include being without spirit, for 30 years, and TOTALLY cut off from really talking with God.
Oh, sure, he could pray but he couldn't hear anything back, JUST LIKE it was for us before we got spirit. It wasn't a full, two-way conversation of like minds.
So, just like us with no spirit and unable to have any kind of REAL conversation with God, Jesus had to imagine it via the written Word and prayer. It seemed to work well for him during those years, because when he finally did get spirit, he was ready for it. We can all learn from his example, and be thankful that we are no longer in that spiritless state where God can't really talk to us.
Sometimes we get tired or confused in our minds (like possibly grieving the spirit) and it's hard again to hear that still small voice. Great comfort, again, can come from Jesus' example. Via the written Word and prayer we can to re-establish rich, sustained fellowship, and the opportunity to hear our Father's comforting, still, small voice.
That would include being without spirit, for 30 years, and TOTALLY cut off from really talking with God.
Oh, sure, he could pray but he couldn't hear anything back, JUST LIKE it was for us before we got spirit. It wasn't a full, two-way conversation of like minds.
This is my favorite story of Jesus as a boy. It's from The Infancy Gospel of Thomas, which dates to the 2nd century. Our earliest manuscripts of this apocrypha are from the 5th century. This Gospel should NOT be confused with the sayings Gospel of Thomas, which many scholars today believe is earlier than Mark, even earlier than Paul - currently, I'm convinced of their position.
For me, the following story is as believable as the story of casting devils into pigs, but it's so much more satisfying, magical, full of wonder... and kind of funny. (Later in the Gospel, Jesus straightens that kid out.)
We just don't know. But we can imagine. It's a story that was told. That's REALLY all that it is. And it's wonderful!
======================
1. I Thomas, an Israelite, write you this account, that all the brethren from among the heathen may know the miracles of our Lord Jesus Christ in His infancy, which He did after His birth in our country. The beginning of it is as follows:-
2. This child Jesus, when five years old, was playing in the ford of a mountain stream; and He collected the flowing waters into pools, and made them clear immediately, and by a word alone He made them obey Him. And having made some soft clay, He fashioned out of it twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath when He did these things. And there were also many other children playing with Him. And a certain Jew, seeing what Jesus was doing, playing on the Sabbath, went off immediately, and said to his father Joseph: Behold, thy son is at the stream, and has taken clay, and made of it twelve birds, and has profaned the Sabbath. And Joseph, coming to the place and seeing, cried out to Him, saying: Wherefore doest thou on the Sabbath what it is not lawful to do? And Jesus clapped His hands, and cried out to the sparrows, and said to them: Off you go! And the sparrows flew, and went off crying. And the Jews seeing this were amazed, and went away and reported to their chief men what they had seen Jesus doing.
3. And the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a willow branch, and let out the waters which Jesus bad collected. And Jesus, seeing what was done, was angry, and said to him: O wicked, impious, and foolish! what harm did the pools and the waters do to thee? Behold, even now thou shalt be dried up like a tree, and thou shalt not bring forth either leaves, or root, or fruit. And straightway that boy was quite dried up. And Jesus departed, and went to Joseph's house. But the parents of the boy that had been dried up took him up, bewailing his youth, and brought him to Joseph, and reproached him because,said they, thou hast such a child doing such things.
Interesting idea: inserted wedge. Similar to another analogy I heard before of an inserted tube.
I think it was God who knew what the devil was planning, and Gen. 3:15 he lets a little of his plan out of the bag, not to say any of the mystery was there. It is obvious to me the devil would want and look for a way to have easy access to humans that he could use for his plans. God knew in Genesis that this "wedge" or "tube" would be a counterfeit of God's seed in us, and He called it that, that the seed of the woman would crush the seed of the serpent.
I am surprised that you and someone else asked how does a human have lots of close fellowship with the adversary. Think about it a little. Same thing for your next question on goals and buttons. You are asking me what should be obvious to you.
As for biological protections, I can't remember where I picked that up, but it seems pretty obvious to me that God would want to protect innocent people from EASILY getting possessed. If you have ever watched a person descend this way, it is a long process. You just don't get possessed that easily. Lots of us once thought that way, but I finally realized that OPPRESSION is what the adversary inflicts on us OFTEN. But it takes a while for possession to happen. Hardly anyone ever thinks about oppression, especially after The Exorcist movie came out.
This Contradicts the concepts you posited on the determinism and illusion of free will thread
That would include being without spirit, for 30 years, and TOTALLY cut off from really talking with God.
Oh, sure, he could pray but he couldn't hear anything back, JUST LIKE it was for us before we got spirit. It wasn't a full, two-way conversation of like minds.
Pure baseless fantasyland conjecture. Mike takes some stupid bullshonta like God can only talk to spirit and he then makes that lie the lens with which to interpret everything. Yet, here we have Mike giving an outright false interpretation of scripture based on wierwilles lie, yet Mike says scripture interprets itself.
Mike you have no earthly idea as to just how God communicated with Jesus Christ....in fact nobody does at this point because scripture doesn't say...yet u claim to know...lmao
Saying his typical outlandish nonsense…trying to be provocative…trying to elicit a response…he did this most notably and ignobly on certain threads: The Absent Christ, The New Testament canon, Determinism and the Illusion of Free Will.
~ ~ ~ ~
...a troll is a person who posts or makes inflammatory, insincere, digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages online (such as in social media, a newsgroup, a forum, a chat room, a online video game), or in real life, with the intent of provoking others into displaying emotional responses or manipulating others' perception. The behavior is typically for the troll's amusement, or to achieve a specific result such as disrupting a rival's online activities or purposefully causing confusion or harm to other users online.
In this context, both the noun and the verb forms of "troll" are frequently associated with Internet discourse. Media attention in recent years has equated trolling with online harassment…The advice to ignore rather than engage with a troll is sometimes phrased as "Please don't feed the trolls."
The most common advice to deal with someone who gets enjoyment out of provoking others is to ignore them and deprive them of the pleasure of watching people react. This is typically phrased as "don't feed the trolls", however, some believe this to be bad or incomplete advice for effectively dealing with trolls.
#2 What I post is STRONGLY against the thinking of the most active posters here.
#3 What I post is SO damning of the majority opinion that it disrupts their thinking.
#4 The active posters are outraged at my defiance of their anti-idol.
#5 The active posters have no solid ground to stand on, so they call me a troll, and resort to pulling out all their old nasty Way Corps skills of melting faces and trying to belittle defiant thinkers.
#2 What I post is STRONGLY against the thinking of the most active posters here.
#3 What I post is SO damning of the majority opinion that it disrupts their thinking.
#4 The active posters are outraged at my defiance of their anti-idol.
#5 The active posters have no solid ground to stand on, so they call me a troll, and resort to pulling out all their old nasty Way Corps skills of melting faces and trying to belittle defiant thinkers.
All false btw...but this is a classic example of a Freudian slip...cause this is what u really want to accomplish ..your appearently not smart enough to not tip your hand to your true intentions.
After thinking a lot about Numbers 11 lately, I decided to read it in the NIV just for fun. WoW! I had no idea that Numbers 12 came after Numbers 11 ! LoL
The content of Numbers 12 has some more points that illustrate the principle that God can't REALLY talk to us with out us having spirit. Here we see the difference between Moses and the others. He was more meek and had more time than them to learn how to REALLY hear from God. We can see the others who had spirit, but not the meekness and the training Moses had with that spirit. They still had the communications block because it takes a willing and trained mind, as well as spirit, to get around the communications block.
*/*/*/*
Miriam and Aaron began to talk against Moses because of his Cudange wife, for he had married a Cudange.
2 “Has the Lord spoken only through Moses?” they asked. “Hasn’t he also spoken through us?” And the Lord heard this.
3 (Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.)
4 At once the Lord said to Moses, Aaron and Miriam, “Come out to the tent of meeting, all three of you.” So the three of them went out.5 Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud; he stood at the entrance to the tent and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When the two of them stepped forward,6 he said, “Listen to my words:
“When there is a prophet among you, I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions, I speak to them in dreams. 7 But this is not true of my servant Moses; he is faithful in all my house. 8 With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?” 9 The anger of the Lord burned against them, and he left them.
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So_crates
Remember what I said about the length of the post directly correlated with the effort to con someone. And like you don't have an agenda? So shall we stop reading your post too? No
chockfull
Just out of curiosity Mike have you had a chance to read penworks book yet? You have a lot of speculation going on about a time period and people that are very well documented in her book. She was t
So_crates
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OldSkool
Sounds like what we're trying to do for Mike. I don't wanna sound antagonistic...but I'm not sugar coating anything either.
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chockfull
Exactly that. Not trying to be mean but there is a certain level of cognition needed to read a verse and determine the nouns and verbs to see who the actors are.
Saying Numbers 11 proves that spirit can only talk to spirit is very far from any logical cognition necessary to carry on much of a conversation.
I wonder if the new class teachers have all their logic bound up like this in a similar fashion where they just block out any apparent inconsistency in VPs teachings and go on thickly.
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T-Bone
Forrest Gump’s explanation:
Spirit is as Spirit does
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Nathan_Jr
One thing I learned from imitating victor and standing on his shoulders is one can MAKE the Bible say say anything at all with enough fudging and imagination, because this is how (H-O-W) he did it.
Victor showed me one can BELEEEEVE the Bible to say what one wants it to say. It will say what vic says, if one BELEEEVES it will.
Lo shonta koala!
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OldSkool
ma shonta la seetay Didgeridoo!
Its easy...just read a scripture thats somewhat resembles whay u want it to say, redefine a few key concepts, then just tell them what you want it to say! Ole vic made millions and millions off that ploy....his keeds are still living off it today.
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waysider
Before the beginning....(Skip to 8:05, if you so choose.)
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OldSkool
I took your advice...profound...there is my life before that moment....there was a huge enduring bellylaugh.....then there is my life going forward...lmao!
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Nathan_Jr
Well, this just explains everything. All of it Not more. Not less. EVERYTHING
Brilliant!
If only victor could have heard this in the original.
”If you push something hard enough, it WILL fall over.” - Lifeline
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So_crates
So, how did Satan know what God planned? He would have to in order to counterfeit it. Or did Satan just luck out?
As you recall, Paul told us the new birth was a great mystery to those before Christ.
Reading the rest of the thread, I see I'm not the only one to notice this glaring error. I also notice you never answered it.
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T-Bone
Mike attempts to make a confused and incoherent correlation by quoting from Numbers 11:
25 And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
~ ~ ~ ~
Note Mike bold-types the texts that come closest to “spirit” and “talk” – except “talk” isn’t mentioned in the passages – but the word “prophesied” is. And it’s people prophesying to people - NOT spirit talking to spirit. Numbers 11 does NOTHING to support wierwille’s bull$hit that God is spirit and can only talk to spirit.
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Nathan_Jr
My new favorite cop out is REALLY. When the gloves just won't fit, you've got to REALLY make them fit.
Spirit can't REALLY....
You are REALLY born again...
God can't REALLY...
Well, maybe my REAL favorite cop outs are all the asserted opinionated claims of what God can or cannot REALLY do. Who or what is this little god who seems so powerless and ineffectual against the adversary? Seriously, WITAF does victor mean when he says "god."
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Mike
I often like to think of what life was like for Jesus, when he was growing up.
There is SO much comfort in knowing that he went through all the trials we go through.
That would include being without spirit, for 30 years, and TOTALLY cut off from really talking with God.
Oh, sure, he could pray but he couldn't hear anything back, JUST LIKE it was for us before we got spirit. It wasn't a full, two-way conversation of like minds.
So, just like us with no spirit and unable to have any kind of REAL conversation with God, Jesus had to imagine it via the written Word and prayer. It seemed to work well for him during those years, because when he finally did get spirit, he was ready for it. We can all learn from his example, and be thankful that we are no longer in that spiritless state where God can't really talk to us.
Sometimes we get tired or confused in our minds (like possibly grieving the spirit) and it's hard again to hear that still small voice. Great comfort, again, can come from Jesus' example. Via the written Word and prayer we can to re-establish rich, sustained fellowship, and the opportunity to hear our Father's comforting, still, small voice.
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T-Bone
How long was Jesus in a cult?
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T-Bone
Again with the “really” !
I actually don’t believe you
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T-Bone
How do you REALLY know that?
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Nathan_Jr
This is my favorite story of Jesus as a boy. It's from The Infancy Gospel of Thomas, which dates to the 2nd century. Our earliest manuscripts of this apocrypha are from the 5th century. This Gospel should NOT be confused with the sayings Gospel of Thomas, which many scholars today believe is earlier than Mark, even earlier than Paul - currently, I'm convinced of their position.
For me, the following story is as believable as the story of casting devils into pigs, but it's so much more satisfying, magical, full of wonder... and kind of funny. (Later in the Gospel, Jesus straightens that kid out.)
We just don't know. But we can imagine. It's a story that was told. That's REALLY all that it is. And it's wonderful!
======================
1. I Thomas, an Israelite, write you this account, that all the brethren from among the heathen may know the miracles of our Lord Jesus Christ in His infancy, which He did after His birth in our country. The beginning of it is as follows:-
2. This child Jesus, when five years old, was playing in the ford of a mountain stream; and He collected the flowing waters into pools, and made them clear immediately, and by a word alone He made them obey Him. And having made some soft clay, He fashioned out of it twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath when He did these things. And there were also many other children playing with Him. And a certain Jew, seeing what Jesus was doing, playing on the Sabbath, went off immediately, and said to his father Joseph: Behold, thy son is at the stream, and has taken clay, and made of it twelve birds, and has profaned the Sabbath. And Joseph, coming to the place and seeing, cried out to Him, saying: Wherefore doest thou on the Sabbath what it is not lawful to do? And Jesus clapped His hands, and cried out to the sparrows, and said to them: Off you go! And the sparrows flew, and went off crying. And the Jews seeing this were amazed, and went away and reported to their chief men what they had seen Jesus doing.
3. And the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a willow branch, and let out the waters which Jesus bad collected. And Jesus, seeing what was done, was angry, and said to him: O wicked, impious, and foolish! what harm did the pools and the waters do to thee? Behold, even now thou shalt be dried up like a tree, and thou shalt not bring forth either leaves, or root, or fruit. And straightway that boy was quite dried up. And Jesus departed, and went to Joseph's house. But the parents of the boy that had been dried up took him up, bewailing his youth, and brought him to Joseph, and reproached him because, said they, thou hast such a child doing such things.
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T-Bone
This Contradicts the concepts you posited on the determinism and illusion of free will thread
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OldSkool
Pure baseless fantasyland conjecture. Mike takes some stupid bullshonta like God can only talk to spirit and he then makes that lie the lens with which to interpret everything. Yet, here we have Mike giving an outright false interpretation of scripture based on wierwilles lie, yet Mike says scripture interprets itself.
Mike you have no earthly idea as to just how God communicated with Jesus Christ....in fact nobody does at this point because scripture doesn't say...yet u claim to know...lmao
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waysider
Was he ever in charge of flip-charts at a tape class?
Yeah, that's what I thought.
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T-Bone
So-and-so is at it again
Saying his typical outlandish nonsense…trying to be provocative…trying to elicit a response…he did this most notably and ignobly
on certain threads: The Absent Christ, The New Testament canon, Determinism and the Illusion of Free Will.
~ ~ ~ ~
...a troll is a person who posts or makes inflammatory, insincere, digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages online (such as in social media, a newsgroup, a forum, a chat room, a online video game), or in real life, with the intent of provoking others into displaying emotional responses or manipulating others' perception. The behavior is typically for the troll's amusement, or to achieve a specific result such as disrupting a rival's online activities or purposefully causing confusion or harm to other users online.
In this context, both the noun and the verb forms of "troll" are frequently associated with Internet discourse. Media attention in recent years has equated trolling with online harassment…The advice to ignore rather than engage with a troll is sometimes phrased as "Please don't feed the trolls."
The most common advice to deal with someone who gets enjoyment out of provoking others is to ignore them and deprive them of the pleasure of watching people react. This is typically phrased as "don't feed the trolls", however, some believe this to be bad or incomplete advice for effectively dealing with trolls.
Troll (slang) - Wikipedia
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Mike
#1 I am not a troll.
#2 What I post is STRONGLY against the thinking of the most active posters here.
#3 What I post is SO damning of the majority opinion that it disrupts their thinking.
#4 The active posters are outraged at my defiance of their anti-idol.
#5 The active posters have no solid ground to stand on, so they call me a troll, and resort to pulling out all their old nasty Way Corps skills of melting faces and trying to belittle defiant thinkers.
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OldSkool
Who's that, Jesus Christ?
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OldSkool
All false btw...but this is a classic example of a Freudian slip...cause this is what u really want to accomplish ..your appearently not smart enough to not tip your hand to your true intentions.
Trollshonta malakas many la seetay
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Mike
After thinking a lot about Numbers 11 lately, I decided to read it in the NIV just for fun. WoW! I had no idea that Numbers 12 came after Numbers 11 ! LoL
The content of Numbers 12 has some more points that illustrate the principle that God can't REALLY talk to us with out us having spirit. Here we see the difference between Moses and the others. He was more meek and had more time than them to learn how to REALLY hear from God. We can see the others who had spirit, but not the meekness and the training Moses had with that spirit. They still had the communications block because it takes a willing and trained mind, as well as spirit, to get around the communications block.
*/*/*/*
Miriam and Aaron began to talk against Moses because of his Cudange wife, for he had married a Cudange.
2 “Has the Lord spoken only through Moses?” they asked. “Hasn’t he also spoken through us?” And the Lord heard this.
3 (Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.)
4 At once the Lord said to Moses, Aaron and Miriam, “Come out to the tent of meeting, all three of you.” So the three of them went out. 5 Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud; he stood at the entrance to the tent and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When the two of them stepped forward, 6 he said, “Listen to my words:
“When there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams.
7 But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.
8 With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?”
9 The anger of the Lord burned against them, and he left them.
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