These days, I'm a s/emp gardener. I just love being in gardens and helping plants "be their best." I learn so much about God, and about living, from tending plants.
Plant something in the right location and watch it grow. It may need more - or less - sun or shade. Acid-soil plants won't grow in some soils and need special soil or being planted elsewhere. Is your job, for example, the best place for you to flourish, or does it drag you down. Is your church the right place for you?
A plant needs proper nutrients and water. Do what's necessary, to get the best growth. Feed yourself with the right things to help you grow ("think on these things!"). Don't poison your own growth with things that either stunt growth or don't allow growth at all and which will ultimately kill the plant. Are your habits beneficial?
Occasionally a plant needs pruning - to keep its shape, to stop unwanted growth, to encourage it to produce more fruit or blooms, etc. Think how savagely roses can be pruned - back to not much at all - yet the next year they're flourishing. If you don 't cut them back, they revert to root stock and lose their lovely blooms. So with us. Sometimes bad things happen. We can let them "kill" us, or we can allow this to be a pruning of unnecessary "stuff" so that we can grow in the best way to suit our own personalities and gifts.
Put a plant in the best and most appropriate location. It should grow. Sometimes it doesn't thrive. Take it out and put it somewhere temporarily - and it really takes off. Sometimes what seems the ideal isn't in fact the best for that plant.
Some plants like companion plants. They tend to thrive best if other plants are nearby. Some plants help ward off insects or diseases off the principal plant, or attract good pollinators, or give shade, etc. Some plants just look good together and enhance others' beauty. Do you have companions who help and guard you, and who bring out the best in you?
All plants are seasonal and nothing bears fruit or new leaves all the time. It has a rest every so often ("fall" or autumn). This is necessary. But then the plant "wakes up" ("spring") and next year's growth is better. Sometimes there's nothing obvious going on because last year's growth has been cut back to the roots. Don't worry if there's nothing to see: back next year in better form. So we need rests occasionally. Sleep well at night but get busy the next day. Allow yourself a rest or vacation - but remember, it's only temporary, not sitting back being a couch potato for ever.
And the fruit needs enjoying. It's not just there to be pretty. It needs eating, digesting, and helping nurture your own body. Some parts of the fruits need replanting, for more crops next year. So feed yourself and share with as many others as possible with the fruits of the spirit. Enjoy being kind, patient, forbearing, etc, because these things will help you and others become more kind, patient, forbearing, etc.
Now this is some interesting gardening and spiritual stuff:
We all know this verse:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.(Gal 5)
Are we so familiar with this verse?
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22)
I’m intrigued that there are twelve fruits on this wonderful tree in the new Jerusalem.
There were 12 tribes of Israel.
Now there are 12 fruits.However, it’s not defined who these fruits are for.
But the leaves of the tree are not for the 12 tribes, but for the nations. For the Gentiles.For us.There are healing leaves that we as Gentiles eat: herbs, vegetables.Leaves of trees, less so in the usual western diet, but possibly so in other cultures.
Sometimes, I wonder if there are more fruits of the spirit, but we don’t have access to those.Yet.
I'm hoping to have a discussion about how God works in our lives. There are so many verses that tell believers what to do such as walk in love and renew your mind. My foundation for living a Christian life began with and for 12 years was based on twi's doctrine and practices. I remember the ministry's phrase that said to "practice the presence of God," but I pretty much took that to mean I was to think about God instead of worldly things which brought me back to something I was to do. I remember hearing, "you do your part and God will do His part. What does that even mean.
I know now that it has to do with having a two-way relationship with God and Christ. It wasn't easy, however, for this to happen in twi because you were so busy doing their work of the ministry, (hold fellowships, witness, run classes, go to leaders about everything) that my relationship with them was way more established than my relationship with God or with Jesus, who by the way, was absent.
So when I read Phil 2:12,13 which says I am to work out my own salvation for it is God who is working in you both to want to do, and to do, his good pleasure, I wondered what did this all entail and how does He do it. I'm especially thinking about experiencing the fruit of the spirit (Gal 5:22,23) and living with the power of God in our lives.
22 hours ago, OldSkool said:
I agree that working scripture is a good thing to do, hands down. However, TWI placed study on a pedestal that doesn't fit. That we have a bible is cool, never been easier to study and we should do so as we determine. However, consider how powerfully they walked in the book of Acts...guess what? They didnt have Bibles. Most of them used the Apocryphia for what we know as the Old Testament, including Jesus Christ. Scripture was on scrolls, papyrus, etc..and kept in the temple or Synagogues. The public really didn't have access unless you were wealthy enough to afford your own set, or went to the Synagogue or Temple. Wierwille made Christianity into an intellectual pursuit, while the Bible clearly states that knowledge puffeth up.
Love trumps it all. Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. Love your neghbor as yourself. Love trumps doctrine any day of the week and God isn't bound by our knowledge, or lack of knowledge of scripture. They walked the way they did in the first century because Christianity is relationship based. God is our Father, Christ is our Lord and head. That simple.
Hi All,
Late to the party
Circling back to a couple of earlier ideas
Amplified Bible For it is [not your strength, but it is] God who is effectively at work in you, both to will and to work [that is, strengthening, energizing, and creating in you the longing and the ability to fulfill your purpose] for His good pleasure.Philippians 2:13
After I left TWI, I started going to Christian bookstores to broaden my horizons – I was especially keen on this topic…(and still feel like a newbie – but that’s beside the point). I bought a copy ofKeep in Step with the Spiritby J.I. Packer( note I have a 1984 edition – the link is to a newer version ). Packer says some cool stuff commenting on Phil. 2:13- It’s NOT being passive – as if it’s separate from you – you don’t go limp and switch on God – like sitting in a car, turningon the ignition key to use God to get somewhere. Packer said the Holy Spirit’s ordinary way of working in us is through our own mind and will. He moves us to act by causing us to see reasons which drive us to act. We’re being mindful. Our rational selfhood is strengthened instead of destroyed.
Packer said this stuff in contrast to the focus of some movements that got into perfectionism, quietism, Gnosticism, erroneously elevating contemplation over action, disparaging individuality... See * below for a couple of the movements Packer referenced.
That all got me thinking aboutI Corinthians 12 - 14andRomans 12. Paul is NOTgiving detailed instructions on how to “operate” the Spirit…it occurred to me the believers already knew they had gifts – Paul is saying be orderly and appropriate with love, cheerfully serving the church with whatever your gifts are:
3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your a faith; 7if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, b do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.Romans 12: 3 - 8 NIV
~ ~ ~ ~
And thinking about wierwille’s stance - studying “The Word” should be our highest priority – I can see how that would tend to de-emphasize having a relationship with a person (God) and stress connecting with a book. Not that there is anything wrong with studying the Bible.
Compare having a relationship with another person to having a relationship with a book.
People-relationships are two-sided, dynamic, and transformational. What one person does can have an affect on the other. There are two wills involved – the mental powers of two minds demonstrated in wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending. There’s the possibility of disagreement but also of having another perspective.
Book-relationships are one-sided, semi-fixed or limited - depends on cognitive development. There’s the possibility I’m unaware of some necessary information, or I can forget, disregard something or deem it as unimportant or not applicable to me.
Now when you mix wierwille’s wooden fundamentalist dogmatism, his disdain for believers following feelings / intuition and pushing a cult-leader’s homogenized version of you - the real you tends to get buried alive. What wierwille taught was the real you – was actually more along the lines of The Stepford Wives.
If you think about the attitudes and decision-making-Way-Treethat was sewn into much of his work you’ll find his concept of the ideal believer is servile... compliant... submissive... a spineless person endowed with an almost robot-like ability to suppress emotions, ignore sensory input, and turn off logical subroutines. After 12 years of involvement, I managed to seamlessly superimpose an adaptive selfover my authentic self – otherwise I wouldn’t have "lasted" for 12 years. My adaptive self enabled me to get along in a challenging cultic social environment like TWI with some “success” i.e., the least amount of conflict with others – but often at the expense of my authentic selfgoing into hibernation... The longer one stays involved with TWI the more one’s authentic self gets buried under TWI’s values, goals, priorities, contrived interpersonal skills, cult-beliefs, cult-behaviors - all of which serves TWI more than one’s own best interest.
I’m a study bug. I like having the Bible as a guideline. But I think of it now as more of “technical support” for help on issues I’m having with my relationship with God / Jesus Christ / the Holy Spirit
personal want ad: authentic self seeking a long-term relationship with God.
~ ~ ~ ~
warning this section is for nerds who like to hear more details
*a couple of the movements Packer referenced for being passive, prideful, and tending toward the annihilation of selfhood:
Higher Life movement - Wikipedia= The main idea in the Keswickian theology of the Higher Life movement is that the Christian should move on from his initial conversion experience to also experience a second work of God in his life. This work of God is called “entire sanctification,” “the second blessing,” “the second touch,” “being filled with the Holy Spirit,” and various other terms. Higher Life teachers promote the idea that Christians who receive this blessing from God can live a more holy, that is less sinful or even a sinless, life. The Keswick approach seeks to provide a mediating and biblically balanced solution to the problem of subnormal Christian experience. The “official” teaching has been that every believer in this life is left with the natural proclivity to sin and will do so without the countervailing influence of the Holy Spirit.
In light of Keswick teaching, Packer observes it may have influenced some people who can be described as pietistic elitists, with a sense of superiority that comes from thinking one knows esoteric spiritual secrets, exhibiting anti-intellectual prickliness, showing smug complacency that uses peace, joy, rest, and blessing as its buzzwords. Packer says maybe the doctrine attracted people who were already leaning in this direction for temperamental reasons – in which case the worst that can be said of it as a nurturing diet for them is that it has never seemed able to correct these particular forms of immaturity and spiritual pride… …I think some of Packer’s comments describe me in my TWI days / daze.
~ ~ ~ ~
Quietism (Christian contemplation) - Wikipedia= The "Quietist" heresy was seen by critics to consist of wrongly elevating "contemplation" over "meditation", intellectual stillness over vocal prayer, and interior passivity over pious action in an account of mystical prayer, spiritual growth and union with God (one in which, the accusation ran, there existed the possibility of achieving a sinless state and union with the Christian Godhead)…
…It is possible to isolate similar tendencies (and similar concerns from the accusers) as those condemned in the seventeenth century "Quietist" controversy in earlier periods.
In Hellenistic philosophy, the state of imperturbable serenity or ataraxiawas seen as a desirable state of mind by Pyrrhonism, Epicureanism, Stoic and philosophers…In early Christianity, suspicion over forms of mystical teaching may be seen as controversies over Gnosticism in the second and third centuries, and over the Messalianheresy in the fourth and fifth centuries…
…George Fox came to the conclusion that the only real spirituality was achieved by paying attention to the Holy Spirit (the godhead) through silence and founded the Quaker movement on this basis – one which shared much resemblance with "Quietist" thought. Quietist thinking was also influential among the British Quakers of the later 19th century, when the tract A Reasonable Faith, by Three Friends (William Pollard, Francis Frith and W. E. Turner (1884 and 1886)) caused sharp controversy with evangelicals in the society.
You have reached the ultimate end of my post…go in peace
These days, I'm a s/emp gardener. I just love being in gardens and helping plants "be their best." I learn so much about God, and about living, from tending plants.
Plant something in the right location and watch it grow. It may need more - or less - sun or shade. Acid-soil plants won't grow in some soils and need special soil or being planted elsewhere. Is your job, for example, the best place for you to flourish, or does it drag you down. Is your church the right place for you?
A plant needs proper nutrients and water. Do what's necessary, to get the best growth. Feed yourself with the right things to help you grow ("think on these things!"). Don't poison your own growth with things that either stunt growth or don't allow growth at all and which will ultimately kill the plant. Are your habits beneficial?
Occasionally a plant needs pruning - to keep its shape, to stop unwanted growth, to encourage it to produce more fruit or blooms, etc. Think how savagely roses can be pruned - back to not much at all - yet the next year they're flourishing. If you don 't cut them back, they revert to root stock and lose their lovely blooms. So with us. Sometimes bad things happen. We can let them "kill" us, or we can allow this to be a pruning of unnecessary "stuff" so that we can grow in the best way to suit our own personalities and gifts.
Put a plant in the best and most appropriate location. It should grow. Sometimes it doesn't thrive. Take it out and put it somewhere temporarily - and it really takes off. Sometimes what seems the ideal isn't in fact the best for that plant.
Some plants like companion plants. They tend to thrive best if other plants are nearby. Some plants help ward off insects or diseases off the principal plant, or attract good pollinators, or give shade, etc. Some plants just look good together and enhance others' beauty. Do you have companions who help and guard you, and who bring out the best in you?
All plants are seasonal and nothing bears fruit or new leaves all the time. It has a rest every so often ("fall" or autumn). This is necessary. But then the plant "wakes up" ("spring") and next year's growth is better. Sometimes there's nothing obvious going on because last year's growth has been cut back to the roots. Don't worry if there's nothing to see: back next year in better form. So we need rests occasionally. Sleep well at night but get busy the next day. Allow yourself a rest or vacation - but remember, it's only temporary, not sitting back being a couch potato for ever.
And the fruit needs enjoying. It's not just there to be pretty. It needs eating, digesting, and helping nurture your own body. Some parts of the fruits need replanting, for more crops next year. So feed yourself and share with as many others as possible with the fruits of the spirit. Enjoy being kind, patient, forbearing, etc, because these things will help you and others become more kind, patient, forbearing, etc.
I could go on indefinitely. But you get the gist.
There's so much wisdom in what you shared both in being a gardener (even an amateur one like me) and in being a Christian. I'm beginning to think it'd be wise to print a lot of these posts so it'll be handy for me to read them over again.
I love being around nature or even just looking at pictures or videos of it. There are times when I doubt the existence of God and it's always thinking of His creation that brings me back. There is a video called "Creation Calls" by Brian Doerksen (4:33 version). (It's not allowing me to insert the file I think because it's too large.) While he sings the song, it shows one filmed clip after another of spectacular examples of nature in action (different animals and plants, oceans, waterfalls, forests etc.)
Paul is NOTgiving detailed instructions on how to “operate” the Spirit…it occurred to me the believers already knew they had gifts – Paul is saying be orderly and appropriate with love, cheerfully serving the church with whatever your gifts are:
Thanks T-Bone! I had never really considered this at all. Much appreciated.
I love being around nature or even just looking at pictures or videos of it.
Awesome, hey!
I like walking. Long walks, in forests or in mountain ranges. Especially forested mountain ranges.
I pause and look at all the different colours of green that there are in a mixed forest, or in a small copse. Bluey greens, yellowy greens, reddish ones, and even greeny ones. So many different shades of green. I think: God had fun doing this. Could've made everything one flat colour, but no - look at the variety. Just done for pleasure, fun, enjoyment (a botanist might say differently ). Just like we're all just a bit different from each other. God didn't make us all the same, either.
Amplified Bible For it is [not your strength, but it is] God who is effectively at work in you, both to will and to work [that is, strengthening, energizing, and creating in you the longing and the ability to fulfill your purpose] for His good pleasure.Philippians 2:13
After I left TWI, I started going to Christian bookstores to broaden my horizons – I was especially keen on this topic…(and still feel like a newbie – but that’s beside the point). I bought a copy ofKeep in Step with the Spiritby J.I. Packer( note I have a 1984 edition – the link is to a newer version ). Packer says some cool stuff commenting on Phil. 2:13- It’s NOT being passive – as if it’s separate from you – you don’t go limp and switch on God – like sitting in a car, turningon the ignition key to use God to get somewhere. Packer said the Holy Spirit’s ordinary way of working in us is through our own mind and will. He moves us to act by causing us to see reasons which drive us to act. We’re being mindful. Our rational selfhood is strengthened instead of destroyed.
Packer said this stuff in contrast to the focus of some movements that got into perfectionism, quietism, Gnosticism, erroneously elevating contemplation over action, disparaging individuality... See * below for a couple of the movements Packer referenced.
That all got me thinking aboutI Corinthians 12 - 14andRomans 12. Paul is NOTgiving detailed instructions on how to “operate” the Spirit…it occurred to me the believers already knew they had gifts – Paul is saying be orderly and appropriate with love, cheerfully serving the church with whatever your gifts are:
3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your a faith; 7if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, b do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.Romans 12: 3 - 8 NIV
~ ~ ~ ~
And thinking about wierwille’s stance - studying “The Word” should be our highest priority – I can see how that would tend to de-emphasize having a relationship with a person (God) and stress connecting with a book. Not that there is anything wrong with studying the Bible.
Compare having a relationship with another person to having a relationship with a book.
People-relationships are two-sided, dynamic, and transformational. What one person does can have an affect on the other. There are two wills involved – the mental powers of two minds demonstrated in wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending. There’s the possibility of disagreement but also of having another perspective.
Book-relationships are one-sided, semi-fixed or limited - depends on cognitive development. There’s the possibility I’m unaware of some necessary information, or I can forget, disregard something or deem it as unimportant or not applicable to me.
Now when you mix wierwille’s wooden fundamentalist dogmatism, his disdain for believers following feelings / intuition and pushing a cult-leader’s homogenized version of you - the real you tends to get buried alive. What wierwille taught was the real you – was actually more along the lines of The Stepford Wives.
If you think about the attitudes and decision-making-Way-Treethat was sewn into much of his work you’ll find his concept of the ideal believer is servile... compliant... submissive... a spineless person endowed with an almost robot-like ability to suppress emotions, ignore sensory input, and turn off logical subroutines. After 12 years of involvement, I managed to seamlessly superimpose an adaptive selfover my authentic self – otherwise I wouldn’t have "lasted" for 12 years. My adaptive self enabled me to get along in a challenging cultic social environment like TWI with some “success” i.e., the least amount of conflict with others – but often at the expense of my authentic selfgoing into hibernation... The longer one stays involved with TWI the more one’s authentic self gets buried under TWI’s values, goals, priorities, contrived interpersonal skills, cult-beliefs, cult-behaviors - all of which serves TWI more than one’s own best interest.
I’m a study bug. I like having the Bible as a guideline. But I think of it now as more of “technical support” for help on issues I’m having with my relationship with God / Jesus Christ / the Holy Spirit
personal want ad: authentic self seeking a long-term relationship with God.~ ~ ~ ~
warning this section is for nerds who like to hear more details
*a couple of the movements Packer referenced for being passive, prideful, and tending toward the annihilation of selfhood:
Higher Life movement - Wikipedia= The main idea in the Keswickian theology of the Higher Life movement is that the Christian should move on from his initial conversion experience to also experience a second work of God in his life. This work of God is called “entire sanctification,” “the second blessing,” “the second touch,” “being filled with the Holy Spirit,” and various other terms. Higher Life teachers promote the idea that Christians who receive this blessing from God can live a more holy, that is less sinful or even a sinless, life. The Keswick approach seeks to provide a mediating and biblically balanced solution to the problem of subnormal Christian experience. The “official” teaching has been that every believer in this life is left with the natural proclivity to sin and will do so without the countervailing influence of the Holy Spirit.
In light of Keswick teaching, Packer observes it may have influenced some people who can be described as pietistic elitists, with a sense of superiority that comes from thinking one knows esoteric spiritual secrets, exhibiting anti-intellectual prickliness, showing smug complacency that uses peace, joy, rest, and blessing as its buzzwords. Packer says maybe the doctrine attracted people who were already leaning in this direction for temperamental reasons – in which case the worst that can be said of it as a nurturing diet for them is that it has never seemed able to correct these particular forms of immaturity and spiritual pride… …I think some of Packer’s comments describe me in my TWI days / daze.
~ ~ ~ ~
Quietism (Christian contemplation) - Wikipedia= The "Quietist" heresy was seen by critics to consist of wrongly elevating "contemplation" over "meditation", intellectual stillness over vocal prayer, and interior passivity over pious action in an account of mystical prayer, spiritual growth and union with God (one in which, the accusation ran, there existed the possibility of achieving a sinless state and union with the Christian Godhead)…
…It is possible to isolate similar tendencies (and similar concerns from the accusers) as those condemned in the seventeenth century "Quietist" controversy in earlier periods.
In Hellenistic philosophy, the state of imperturbable serenity or ataraxiawas seen as a desirable state of mind by Pyrrhonism, Epicureanism, Stoic and philosophers…In early Christianity, suspicion over forms of mystical teaching may be seen as controversies over Gnosticism in the second and third centuries, and over the Messalianheresy in the fourth and fifth centuries…
…George Fox came to the conclusion that the only real spirituality was achieved by paying attention to the Holy Spirit (the godhead) through silence and founded the Quaker movement on this basis – one which shared much resemblance with "Quietist" thought. Quietist thinking was also influential among the British Quakers of the later 19th century, when the tract A Reasonable Faith, by Three Friends (William Pollard, Francis Frith and W. E. Turner (1884 and 1886)) caused sharp controversy with evangelicals in the society.
You have reached the ultimate end of my post…go in peace
A lot of great stuff in this post T Bone.
I agree that the simple reading of I Cor 12-14 and Rom 12 right together seems to present a great picture of how to live in the new birth with love and harmony as opposed to rote manual instruction on operating manifestations. Gifts, talents, manifestations many of those words are used and interchangeable in that section. The individual work helps the overall body.
100% opposite of a fundamentalist and separatist view and teaching of those sections, that they contain exact instruction for rote operation of only one kind of thing. And 100% opposite of a separatist teaching of the household that practically isolates the member from true integrated interaction with the rest of the body of Christ for the duration of their life.
Interesting on the movements. The higher life movement sounds like a Pentecostal background.
And the quietist Quakers showing a stoic influence.
Oh and I almost forgot you describing developing different personas. The adaptive self vs the real self. Very perceptive. I remember we used to call it “twig face”
Except some of these clowns have royalty versions of that bullshonta lol.
Now this is some interesting gardening and spiritual stuff:
We all know this verse:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.(Gal 5)
Are we so familiar with this verse?
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22)
I’m intrigued that there are twelve fruits on this wonderful tree in the new Jerusalem.
There were 12 tribes of Israel.
Now there are 12 fruits.However, it’s not defined who these fruits are for.
But the leaves of the tree are not for the 12 tribes, but for the nations. For the Gentiles.For us.There are healing leaves that we as Gentiles eat: herbs, vegetables.Leaves of trees, less so in the usual western diet, but possibly so in other cultures.
Sometimes, I wonder if there are more fruits of the spirit, but we don’t have access to those.Yet.
Hey Twinky,
I think you live that allegory a lot better than crass old fools with PTSD like myself lol
Interesting aspect of that allegory in Revelation. I will say that Tree of Life has the most amount of artwork done ever lol.
I wonder if the healing of the nations is symbolic for world peace in the new heaven and earth?
Amplified Bible For it is [not your strength, but it is] God who is effectively at work in you, both to will and to work [that is, strengthening, energizing, and creating in you the longing and the ability to fulfill your purpose] for His good pleasure.Philippians 2:13
After I left TWI, I started going to Christian bookstores to broaden my horizons – I was especially keen on this topic…(and still feel like a newbie – but that’s beside the point). I bought a copy ofKeep in Step with the Spiritby J.I. Packer( note I have a 1984 edition – the link is to a newer version ). Packer says some cool stuff commenting on Phil. 2:13- It’s NOT being passive – as if it’s separate from you – you don’t go limp and switch on God – like sitting in a car, turningon the ignition key to use God to get somewhere. Packer said We’re being mindful. Our rational selfhood is strengthened instead of destroyed.
You have reached the ultimate end of my post…go in peace
Am I understanding this correctly?
It’s NOT being passive – as if it’s separate from you – you don’t go limp and switch on God – like sitting in a car, turning on the ignition key to use God to get somewhere (in other words, you don’t sit and wait for God to do all the work for you)
“the Holy Spirit’s ordinary way of working in us is through our own mind and will.”
by causing us to see reasons (how? by speaking to our minds?) (is this so our will becomes His will?)
which drive us to act.”
We’re being mindful. (aware that God is working in us?)
Our rational selfhood is strengthened instead of destroyed. (because it's a 2-way relationship unlike vp’s concept of the ideal believer being servile... compliant... submissive... a spineless person endowed with an almost robot-like ability to suppress emotions, ignore sensory input, and turn off logical subroutines.)
Now this is some interesting gardening and spiritual stuff:
We all know this verse:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.(Gal 5)
Are we so familiar with this verse?
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22)
I’m intrigued that there are twelve fruits on this wonderful tree in the new Jerusalem.
There were 12 tribes of Israel.
Now there are 12 fruits.However, it’s not defined who these fruits are for.
But the leaves of the tree are not for the 12 tribes, but for the nations. For the Gentiles.For us.There are healing leaves that we as Gentiles eat: herbs, vegetables.Leaves of trees, less so in the usual western diet, but possibly so in other cultures.
Sometimes, I wonder if there are more fruits of the spirit, but we don’t have access to those.Yet.
Interesting that there was also a tree of life in the Garden of Eden. Rev says that the tree of life yielded her fruit every month which under our calendar means 12 times a year (as in 12 tribes and 12 fruits). Then again, verse 5 says, "there will be no more night, and they will not need any light from a lamp, nor light from the sun," so what would a "month" be?
The tree of life will be on the new earth where God will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, nor will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more; the former things have passed away,” so what does the healing of the nations mean and how do we know that the nations are Gentiles only?
It’s NOT being passive – as if it’s separate from you – you don’t go limp and switch on God – like sitting in a car, turning on the ignition key to use God to get somewhere (in other words, you don’t sit and wait for God to do all the work for you)
“the Holy Spirit’s ordinary way of working in us is through our own mind and will.”
by causing us to see reasons (how? by speaking to our minds?) (is this so our will becomes His will?)
which drive us to act.”
We’re being mindful. (aware that God is working in us?)
Our rational selfhood is strengthened instead of destroyed. (because it's a 2-way relationship unlike vp’s concept of the ideal believer being servile... compliant... submissive... a spineless person endowed with an almost robot-like ability to suppress emotions, ignore sensory input, and turn off logical subroutines.)
Yeah – I think you’re understanding it the way I do... ...of course we both could be wrong
But seriously I still have a long way to go in just processing what Packer said…Part of the issue goes way back to when I was in TWI and doubling down on wierwille’s keys to walking by the spirit. I wanted everything spelled out for me and I thought those “keys” would help. What I really wanted was something definitive – if not an audible voice – something that I knew was not me just imagining it. Passages like the following would fascinate me:
New International Version “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”Luke 22:42
Perhaps when Jesus Christ walked the earth, he was the only one who could accurately distinguish God’s will from his own human will – like here we read he is torn between a very human trait – the will to survive, and God’s will calling for self-sacrifice…one of the most captivating things to think about is something sublimely expressed in theGreek text of John 3:16- “the only begotten” in Greek is μονογενῆ(monogene - you can see we get one from mono and kind from gene) – it basically means one of a kind – unique – the dual nature of Jesus Christ – human and divine – Jesus Christ the hybrid.
Imagine if we could make a clear distinction when it came to something crucial – “okay, I know what I want to do – but I also know what God wants me to do…oy vey…decisions…decisions…decisions” I bet we’ve all experienced that dilemma at times…in TWI I used to blow that off – also what didn’t help was the typical TWI-regimented thought process. For example, after I first took PFAL I had that typical new grad enthusiasm and would witness to anyone about the class – and damn the torpedoes if I got into unchartered waters while talking to someone. At first, I used to brag to my Twig coordinator about spending an hour or two telling someone about how God is love and forgives. I could tell he was a little annoyed and in a roundabout way suggested I shouldn’t waste a lot of time with people who show little interest in taking the class. Another no-no he would get on me about was spending a lot of time teaching PFAL stuff to a person I signed up for the class – I guess he was afraid I’d screw things up.
I’ve come along way since I left TWI – trying to follow through on what comes naturally / supernaturally ? < that's me thinking I can dance
One company I worked for would have several managers make sure they talked with an applicant during their paid try out week, just to get feedback and see if our company was a good fit for them. I could tell this one lady – almost in tears – was distraught over the high demands in time and energy the assistant manager’s job would entail and the stress that might put on her marriage and family. I knew she was highly qualified and would probably be great at the job – but something else kept coming to mind. I remembered myself in TWI as a workaholic. I put the ministry first before my wife and kids – and my marriage and kids suffered because of that.
I didn’t want to tell her what to do and I wasn’t going to tell her about my other strange life in a cult. What I did do was encourage her to re-evaluate her priorities and if hubby and family still outweigh this job then it’s not a good fit for you…She decided to not take the job. Was it God? Was it just me being empathetic? Was it God reminding me to be considerate? I don’t know…It just feels a lot better doing things this way. No big whoop.
Yeah – I think you’re understanding it the way I do... ...of course we both could be wrong
But seriously I still have a long way to go in just processing what Packer said…Part of the issue goes way back to when I was in TWI and doubling down on wierwille’s keys to walking by the spirit. I wanted everything spelled out for me and I thought those “keys” would help. What I really wanted was something definitive – if not an audible voice – something that I knew was not me just imagining it. Passages like the following would fascinate me:
New International Version “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”Luke 22:42
Perhaps when Jesus Christ walked the earth, he was the only one who could accurately distinguish God’s will from his own human will – like here we read he is torn between a very human trait – the will to survive, and God’s will calling for self-sacrifice…one of the most captivating things to think about is something sublimely expressed in theGreek text of John 3:16- “the only begotten” in Greek is μονογενῆ(monogene - you can see we get one from mono and kind from gene) – it basically means one of a kind – unique – the dual nature of Jesus Christ – human and divine – Jesus Christ the hybrid.
Imagine if we could make a clear distinction when it came to something crucial – “okay, I know what I want to do – but I also know what God wants me to do…oy vey…decisions…decisions…decisions” I bet we’ve all experienced that dilemma at times…in TWI I used to blow that off – also what didn’t help was the typical TWI-regimented thought process. For example, after I first took PFAL I had that typical new grad enthusiasm and would witness to anyone about the class – and damn the torpedoes if I got into unchartered waters while talking to someone. At first, I used to brag to my Twig coordinator about spending an hour or two telling someone about how God is love and forgives. I could tell he was a little annoyed and in a roundabout way suggested I shouldn’t waste a lot of time with people who show little interest in taking the class. Another no-no he would get on me about was spending a lot of time teaching PFAL stuff to a person I signed up for the class – I guess he was afraid I’d screw things up.
I’ve come along way since I left TWI – trying to follow through on what comes naturally / supernaturally ? < that's me thinking I can dance
One company I worked for would have several managers make sure they talked with an applicant during their paid try out week, just to get feedback and see if our company was a good fit for them. I could tell this one lady – almost in tears – was distraught over the high demands in time and energy the assistant manager’s job would entail and the stress that might put on her marriage and family. I knew she was highly qualified and would probably be great at the job – but something else kept coming to mind. I remembered myself in TWI as a workaholic. I put the ministry first before my wife and kids – and my marriage and kids suffered because of that.
I didn’t want to tell her what to do and I wasn’t going to tell her about my other strange life in a cult. What I did do was encourage her to re-evaluate her priorities and if hubby and family still outweigh this job then it’s not a good fit for you…She decided to not take the job. Was it God? Was it just me being empathetic? Was it God reminding me to be considerate? I don’t know…It just feels a lot better doing things this way. No big whoop.
Your posts always give me so much to think about - I'll get back to you on this.
I'm not sure I'll have anything useful to offer, but here's my thinking on the subject.....
The answer will either be one of two things, or possibly both simultaneously (which I suspect may be correct.)
A) God is not a respecter of persons, so He relates to all of us the same. To do that, He has to relate on a very fundamental level for each of us as a person. As such, we probably wouldn't be aware of activity at that level. I was realizing I had something to post when I read the question "How does God work in us?" and skipped "Very well, thank you" to "He just does it." I realized that might say something.
B) As a very individual God who works with each and every one of us, He would work slightly differently for each person who seeks Him. For someone who earnestly seeks an intellectual relationship with Him, he might relate on a more technical, informative level. For someone who seeks Him but at a more instinctive level, His relationship would reflect that, as well.
I'm not sure I'll have anything useful to offer, but here's my thinking on the subject.....
The answer will either be one of two things, or possibly both simultaneously (which I suspect may be correct.)
A) God is not a respecter of persons, so He relates to all of us the same. To do that, He has to relate on a very fundamental level for each of us as a person. As such, we probably wouldn't be aware of activity at that level. I was realizing I had something to post when I read the question "How does God work in us?" and skipped "Very well, thank you" to "He just does it." I realized that might say something.
B) As a very individual God who works with each and every one of us, He would work slightly differently for each person who seeks Him. For someone who earnestly seeks an intellectual relationship with Him, he might relate on a more technical, informative level. For someone who seeks Him but at a more instinctive level, His relationship would reflect that, as well.
Clear easy logic. The B part I think TWI explains away with a custom hs lower case that is your personalized Iron Man suit.
There is a little dichotomy in God being subjective and objective at the same time, but I have grown more comfortable with dichotomies in my viewpoints.
Clear easy logic. The B part I think TWI explains away with a custom hs lower case that is your personalized Iron Man suit.
There is a little dichotomy in God being subjective and objective at the same time, but I have grown more comfortable with dichotomies in my viewpoints.
Hi Chockfull, can you explain more about how TWI explains away with a custom hs lower case that is your personalized Iron Man suit? Is the HS and hs another inaccurate doctrine?
Hi Chockfull, can you explain more about how TWI explains away with a custom hs lower case that is your personalized Iron Man suit? Is the HS and hs another inaccurate doctrine?
From recollection the Christ in you is now your personal hs handcrafted so God can speak directly to you spiritually. But it only works to energize the manifestations. They teach Christs hands behind your hands eyes behind your eyes etc. part of your hs gift. It’s why so much emphasis on the SIT part.
Yes I personally believe HS hs to be another inaccurate doctrine contrived to explain away VPs particular fundamentalist approach to gifts and manifestations.
No I can’t explain more about it it all is a large cyclical logical hoax. To keep the mind of the hamster as occupied as the body is running on the wheel of weekly scheduled fellowship activities.
I believe the truth of the Godhead to be different than VPs version I believe the Comforter to be real.
However I don’t have a rote explanation for everything all worked out into a nice package yet. Maybe never will. Maybe part of that is working out my own salvation with respect and obedience.
Being honest.
Remembering more. The Great Principle. God who is Spirit teaches His creation in you which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then it becomes manifest in the senses realm when you act.
Thats the PFAL teaching.
To me today that sounds like a recipe to develop a split personality. I’ve got my lo shanta personality. And I’ve got my regular personality.
God energizes the Comforter who is Holy Spirit. He energizes and catalyzes the needed power. As part of the godhead. I pray, study, act virtuously. He supplies my need. In many different and wonderful ways. More than 9 ways.
That could be an alternate understanding of whatever Bullshonta the GP is. I’m not teaching it like it’s my class just an idea of a different view.
I really am not interested in making up an alternate plausible explanation for everything erroneous about the Way.
I think God designed Christianity as easy enough for the average man to grasp and live.
Pray, read scripture, fellowship, interact in your circles and communities. Be inclusive not exclusive.
The more I get cornered in thinking into needing to explain away and replace each detail of PFAL logic the more self enveloping it is, pulling me back in to the obsessive and destructive mindset of my past.
And the more idiots will dissect whatever I say in closed rooms to justify themselves. Not you Charity we are having a cool talk. I mean the others who watch in silence with evil in their hearts towards those of us on this site.
Interesting that there was also a tree of life in the Garden of Eden. Rev says that the tree of life yielded her fruit every month which under our calendar means 12 times a year (as in 12 tribes and 12 fruits). Then again, verse 5 says, "there will be no more night, and they will not need any light from a lamp, nor light from the sun," so what would a "month" be?
The tree of life will be on the new earth where God will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, nor will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more; the former things have passed away,” so what does the healing of the nations mean and how do we know that the nations are Gentiles only?
Hi Twinky, I was reading Galatians this morning and came across 3:8 which says, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would declare the Gentiles righteous by trust, proclaimed the good news to Abraham ahead of time, saying, In you all the nations will be blessed" This verse made a reference to Gen 18:18 which says, "since Abraham will become, yes, become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed in him?"
So what I'm understanding from this is that Abraham (through his seed) became a great nation of Jews. This leaves all the other nations being non-Jewish, meaning Gentiles. But there's still the question of why will the Gentiles need healing since they would be in the new heaven and new earth?
The question has really peaked my interest, so I plan to research it on the Internet.
I really am not interested in making up an alternate plausible explanation for everything erroneous about the Way.
I think God designed Christianity as easy enough for the average man to grasp and live.
Pray, read scripture, fellowship, interact in your circles and communities. Be inclusive not exclusive.
The more I get cornered in thinking into needing to explain away and replace each detail of PFAL logic the more self enveloping it is, pulling me back in to the obsessive and destructive mindset of my past.
And the more idiots will dissect whatever I say in closed rooms to justify themselves. Not you Charity we are having a cool talk. I mean the others who watch in silence with evil in their hearts towards those of us on this site.
If they are anything like vp (which it sounds like they are), their thoughts and words carry no weight as for as Christ is concerned. I wrote this on The Absent Christ thread this morning.
"I just read yesterday in Undertow about Charlene being confronted by vp for the first time. She idolized this man and was working at hq hoping to be accepted into the corps that September. She was also fairly new to the ministry and only 19 years old. He was crude and "barked" and "snapped" at her and then sent her and another young girl packing all because they were not aware of what a twig leader was doing. She was a groveling mess and vowed to do her best by the time she left the room in response to his "Get outta here." How non-Christlike!"
I know what you mean about being pulled back into twi's rubbish. Reading Undertow can bring up some pretty unpleasant emotional memories of just how bad it was back then.
"Not you Charity we are having a cool talk" - thanks Chockful (picture a happy face here)- it was nice that you mentioned this (maybe to help me from taking things too seriously lol). I mentioned before that I was pretty detailed oriented, even as a child. Sometimes, I even become OCD about things which can cause me to waste a lot of time, energy and brain cells as well as drive other people nuts. Instead of asking a lot of questions, I'm learning to do some research on my own first and later share what I've learned.
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Twinky
I sing with a church music group. This year, I've asked if a group of us can go into a nearby care home (where I have an old friend) and sing carols for a little while. So that's what I'm doing on 2
OldSkool
I agree that working scripture is a good thing to do, hands down. However, TWI placed study on a pedestal that doesn't fit. That we have a bible is cool, never been easier to study and we should do so
Twinky
These days, I'm a s/emp gardener. I just love being in gardens and helping plants "be their best." I learn so much about God, and about living, from tending plants. Plant something in the rig
Nathan_Jr
Limestone carvings seem to be more resilient than writings on papyri.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kish_tablet
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Twinky
These days, I'm a s/emp gardener. I just love being in gardens and helping plants "be their best." I learn so much about God, and about living, from tending plants.
Plant something in the right location and watch it grow. It may need more - or less - sun or shade. Acid-soil plants won't grow in some soils and need special soil or being planted elsewhere. Is your job, for example, the best place for you to flourish, or does it drag you down. Is your church the right place for you?
A plant needs proper nutrients and water. Do what's necessary, to get the best growth. Feed yourself with the right things to help you grow ("think on these things!"). Don't poison your own growth with things that either stunt growth or don't allow growth at all and which will ultimately kill the plant. Are your habits beneficial?
Occasionally a plant needs pruning - to keep its shape, to stop unwanted growth, to encourage it to produce more fruit or blooms, etc. Think how savagely roses can be pruned - back to not much at all - yet the next year they're flourishing. If you don 't cut them back, they revert to root stock and lose their lovely blooms. So with us. Sometimes bad things happen. We can let them "kill" us, or we can allow this to be a pruning of unnecessary "stuff" so that we can grow in the best way to suit our own personalities and gifts.
Put a plant in the best and most appropriate location. It should grow. Sometimes it doesn't thrive. Take it out and put it somewhere temporarily - and it really takes off. Sometimes what seems the ideal isn't in fact the best for that plant.
Some plants like companion plants. They tend to thrive best if other plants are nearby. Some plants help ward off insects or diseases off the principal plant, or attract good pollinators, or give shade, etc. Some plants just look good together and enhance others' beauty. Do you have companions who help and guard you, and who bring out the best in you?
All plants are seasonal and nothing bears fruit or new leaves all the time. It has a rest every so often ("fall" or autumn). This is necessary. But then the plant "wakes up" ("spring") and next year's growth is better. Sometimes there's nothing obvious going on because last year's growth has been cut back to the roots. Don't worry if there's nothing to see: back next year in better form. So we need rests occasionally. Sleep well at night but get busy the next day. Allow yourself a rest or vacation - but remember, it's only temporary, not sitting back being a couch potato for ever.
And the fruit needs enjoying. It's not just there to be pretty. It needs eating, digesting, and helping nurture your own body. Some parts of the fruits need replanting, for more crops next year. So feed yourself and share with as many others as possible with the fruits of the spirit. Enjoy being kind, patient, forbearing, etc, because these things will help you and others become more kind, patient, forbearing, etc.
I could go on indefinitely. But you get the gist.
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Twinky
Now this is some interesting gardening and spiritual stuff:
We all know this verse:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Gal 5)
Are we so familiar with this verse?
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22)
I’m intrigued that there are twelve fruits on this wonderful tree in the new Jerusalem.
There were 12 tribes of Israel.
Now there are 12 fruits. However, it’s not defined who these fruits are for.
But the leaves of the tree are not for the 12 tribes, but for the nations. For the Gentiles. For us. There are healing leaves that we as Gentiles eat: herbs, vegetables. Leaves of trees, less so in the usual western diet, but possibly so in other cultures.
Sometimes, I wonder if there are more fruits of the spirit, but we don’t have access to those. Yet.
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OldSkool
Thanks, and yes.
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T-Bone
Hi All,
Late to the party
Circling back to a couple of earlier ideas
Amplified Bible
For it is [not your strength, but it is] God who is effectively at work in you, both to will and to work [that is, strengthening, energizing, and creating in you the longing and the ability to fulfill your purpose] for His good pleasure. Philippians 2:13
After I left TWI, I started going to Christian bookstores to broaden my horizons – I was especially keen on this topic…(and still feel like a newbie – but that’s beside the point
). I bought a copy of Keep in Step with the Spirit by J.I. Packer( note I have a 1984 edition – the link is to a newer version ). Packer says some cool stuff commenting on Phil. 2:13 - It’s NOT being passive – as if it’s separate from you – you don’t go limp and switch on God – like sitting in a car, turning on the ignition key to use God to get somewhere. Packer said the Holy Spirit’s ordinary way of working in us is through our own mind and will. He moves us to act by causing us to see reasons which drive us to act. We’re being mindful. Our rational selfhood is strengthened instead of destroyed.
Packer said this stuff in contrast to the focus of some movements that got into perfectionism, quietism, Gnosticism, erroneously elevating contemplation over action, disparaging individuality... See * below for a couple of the movements Packer referenced.
That all got me thinking about I Corinthians 12 - 14 and Romans 12 . Paul is NOT giving detailed instructions on how to “operate” the Spirit…it occurred to me the believers already knew they had gifts – Paul is saying be orderly and appropriate with love, cheerfully serving the church with whatever your gifts are:
3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your a faith; 7if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, b do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully. Romans 12: 3 - 8 NIV
~ ~ ~ ~
And thinking about wierwille’s stance - studying “The Word” should be our highest priority – I can see how that would tend to de-emphasize having a relationship with a person (God) and stress connecting with a book. Not that there is anything wrong with studying the Bible.
Compare having a relationship with another person to having a relationship with a book.
People-relationships are two-sided, dynamic, and transformational. What one person does can have an affect on the other. There are two wills involved – the mental powers of two minds demonstrated in wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending. There’s the possibility of disagreement but also of having another perspective.
Book-relationships are one-sided, semi-fixed or limited - depends on cognitive development. There’s the possibility I’m unaware of some necessary information, or I can forget, disregard something or deem it as unimportant or not applicable to me.
Now when you mix wierwille’s wooden fundamentalist dogmatism, his disdain for believers following feelings / intuition and pushing a cult-leader’s homogenized version of you - the real you tends to get buried alive. What wierwille taught was the real you – was actually more along the lines of The Stepford Wives .
If you think about the attitudes and decision-making-Way-Tree
that was sewn into much of his work you’ll find his concept of the ideal believer is servile... compliant... submissive... a spineless person endowed with an almost robot-like ability to suppress emotions, ignore sensory input, and turn off logical subroutines. After 12 years of involvement, I managed to seamlessly superimpose an adaptive self over my authentic self – otherwise I wouldn’t have "lasted" for 12 years. My adaptive self enabled me to get along in a challenging cultic social environment like TWI with some “success” i.e., the least amount of conflict with others – but often at the expense of my authentic self going into hibernation... The longer one stays involved with TWI the more one’s authentic self gets buried under TWI’s values, goals, priorities, contrived interpersonal skills, cult-beliefs, cult-behaviors - all of which serves TWI more than one’s own best interest.
I’m a study bug. I like having the Bible as a guideline. But I think of it now as more of “technical support” for help on issues I’m having with my relationship with God / Jesus Christ / the Holy Spirit
personal want ad: authentic self seeking a long-term relationship with God.
~ ~ ~ ~
warning this section is for nerds who like to hear more details
*a couple of the movements Packer referenced for being passive, prideful, and tending toward the annihilation of selfhood:
Higher Life movement - Wikipedia = The main idea in the Keswickian theology of the Higher Life movement is that the Christian should move on from his initial conversion experience to also experience a second work of God in his life. This work of God is called “entire sanctification,” “the second blessing,” “the second touch,” “being filled with the Holy Spirit,” and various other terms. Higher Life teachers promote the idea that Christians who receive this blessing from God can live a more holy, that is less sinful or even a sinless, life. The Keswick approach seeks to provide a mediating and biblically balanced solution to the problem of subnormal Christian experience. The “official” teaching has been that every believer in this life is left with the natural proclivity to sin and will do so without the countervailing influence of the Holy Spirit.
In light of Keswick teaching, Packer observes it may have influenced some people who can be described as pietistic elitists, with a sense of superiority that comes from thinking one knows esoteric spiritual secrets, exhibiting anti-intellectual prickliness, showing smug complacency that uses peace, joy, rest, and blessing as its buzzwords. Packer says maybe the doctrine attracted people who were already leaning in this direction for temperamental reasons – in which case the worst that can be said of it as a nurturing diet for them is that it has never seemed able to correct these particular forms of immaturity and spiritual pride… …I think some of Packer’s comments describe me in my TWI days / daze.
~ ~ ~ ~
Quietism (Christian contemplation) - Wikipedia = The "Quietist" heresy was seen by critics to consist of wrongly elevating "contemplation" over "meditation", intellectual stillness over vocal prayer, and interior passivity over pious action in an account of mystical prayer, spiritual growth and union with God (one in which, the accusation ran, there existed the possibility of achieving a sinless state and union with the Christian Godhead)…
…It is possible to isolate similar tendencies (and similar concerns from the accusers) as those condemned in the seventeenth century "Quietist" controversy in earlier periods.
In Hellenistic philosophy , the state of imperturbable serenity or ataraxia was seen as a desirable state of mind by Pyrrhonism , Epicureanism , Stoic and philosophers…In early Christianity, suspicion over forms of mystical teaching may be seen as controversies over Gnosticism in the second and third centuries, and over the Messalian heresy in the fourth and fifth centuries…
…George Fox came to the conclusion that the only real spirituality was achieved by paying attention to the Holy Spirit (the godhead) through silence and founded the Quaker movement on this basis – one which shared much resemblance with "Quietist" thought. Quietist thinking was also influential among the British Quakers of the later 19th century, when the tract A Reasonable Faith, by Three Friends (William Pollard, Francis Frith and W. E. Turner (1884 and 1886)) caused sharp controversy with evangelicals in the society.
You have reached the ultimate end of my post…go in peace
Edited by T-Bonerevision
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Charity
There's so much wisdom in what you shared both in being a gardener (even an amateur one like me) and in being a Christian. I'm beginning to think it'd be wise to print a lot of these posts so it'll be handy for me to read them over again.
I love being around nature or even just looking at pictures or videos of it. There are times when I doubt the existence of God and it's always thinking of His creation that brings me back. There is a video called "Creation Calls" by Brian Doerksen (4:33 version). (It's not allowing me to insert the file I think because it's too large.) While he sings the song, it shows one filmed clip after another of spectacular examples of nature in action (different animals and plants, oceans, waterfalls, forests etc.)
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waysider
HERE ya go, Charity.
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Charity
Thank you - you're the best! Did you use "insert image from URL" or "choose files."
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waysider
I just did a copy/pasta from a YouTube URL.
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OldSkool
Thanks T-Bone! I had never really considered this at all. Much appreciated.
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Twinky
Awesome, hey!
I like walking. Long walks, in forests or in mountain ranges. Especially forested mountain ranges.
I pause and look at all the different colours of green that there are in a mixed forest, or in a small copse. Bluey greens, yellowy greens, reddish ones, and even greeny ones. So many different shades of green. I think: God had fun doing this. Could've made everything one flat colour, but no - look at the variety. Just done for pleasure, fun, enjoyment (a botanist might say differently
). Just like we're all just a bit different from each other. God didn't make us all the same, either.
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chockfull
A lot of great stuff in this post T Bone.
I agree that the simple reading of I Cor 12-14 and Rom 12 right together seems to present a great picture of how to live in the new birth with love and harmony as opposed to rote manual instruction on operating manifestations. Gifts, talents, manifestations many of those words are used and interchangeable in that section. The individual work helps the overall body.
100% opposite of a fundamentalist and separatist view and teaching of those sections, that they contain exact instruction for rote operation of only one kind of thing. And 100% opposite of a separatist teaching of the household that practically isolates the member from true integrated interaction with the rest of the body of Christ for the duration of their life.
Interesting on the movements. The higher life movement sounds like a Pentecostal background.
And the quietist Quakers showing a stoic influence.
Oh and I almost forgot you describing developing different personas. The adaptive self vs the real self. Very perceptive. I remember we used to call it “twig face”
Except some of these clowns have royalty versions of that bullshonta lol.
Harry and Megan twig face
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chockfull
Hey Twinky,
I think you live that allegory a lot better than crass old fools with PTSD like myself lol
Interesting aspect of that allegory in Revelation. I will say that Tree of Life has the most amount of artwork done ever lol.
I wonder if the healing of the nations is symbolic for world peace in the new heaven and earth?
New and wonderful fruit awaits us all!
Peace and love.
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Charity
Am I understanding this correctly?
It’s NOT being passive – as if it’s separate from you – you don’t go limp and switch on God – like sitting in a car, turning on the ignition key to use God to get somewhere (in other words, you don’t sit and wait for God to do all the work for you)
“the Holy Spirit’s ordinary way of working in us is through our own mind and will.”
by causing us to see reasons (how? by speaking to our minds?) (is this so our will becomes His will?)
which drive us to act.”
We’re being mindful. (aware that God is working in us?)
Our rational selfhood is strengthened instead of destroyed. (because it's a 2-way relationship unlike vp’s concept of the ideal believer being servile... compliant... submissive... a spineless person endowed with an almost robot-like ability to suppress emotions, ignore sensory input, and turn off logical subroutines.)
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Charity
Interesting that there was also a tree of life in the Garden of Eden. Rev says that the tree of life yielded her fruit every month which under our calendar means 12 times a year (as in 12 tribes and 12 fruits). Then again, verse 5 says, "there will be no more night, and they will not need any light from a lamp, nor light from the sun," so what would a "month" be?
The tree of life will be on the new earth where God will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, nor will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more; the former things have passed away,” so what does the healing of the nations mean and how do we know that the nations are Gentiles only?
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T-Bone
Yeah – I think you’re understanding it the way I do... ...of course we both could be wrong
But seriously I still have a long way to go in just processing what Packer said…Part of the issue goes way back to when I was in TWI and doubling down on wierwille’s keys to walking by the spirit. I wanted everything spelled out for me and I thought those “keys” would help. What I really wanted was something definitive – if not an audible voice – something that I knew was not me just imagining it. Passages like the following would fascinate me:
New International Version
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” Luke 22:42
Perhaps when Jesus Christ walked the earth, he was the only one who could accurately distinguish God’s will from his own human will – like here we read he is torn between a very human trait – the will to survive, and God’s will calling for self-sacrifice…one of the most captivating things to think about is something sublimely expressed in the Greek text of John 3:16 - “the only begotten” in Greek is μονογενῆ (monogene - you can see we get one from mono and kind from gene ) – it basically means one of a kind – unique – the dual nature of Jesus Christ – human and divine – Jesus Christ the hybrid.
Imagine if we could make a clear distinction when it came to something crucial – “okay, I know what I want to do – but I also know what God wants me to do…oy vey…decisions…decisions…decisions”
I bet we’ve all experienced that dilemma at times…in TWI I used to blow that off – also what didn’t help was the typical TWI-regimented thought process. For example, after I first took PFAL I had that typical new grad enthusiasm and would witness to anyone about the class – and damn the torpedoes if I got into unchartered waters while talking to someone. At first, I used to brag to my Twig coordinator about spending an hour or two telling someone about how God is love and forgives. I could tell he was a little annoyed and in a roundabout way suggested I shouldn’t waste a lot of time with people who show little interest in taking the class. Another no-no he would get on me about was spending a lot of time teaching PFAL stuff to a person I signed up for the class – I guess he was afraid I’d screw things up.
I’ve come along way since I left TWI – trying to follow through on what comes naturally / supernaturally ?
< that's me thinking I can dance 
One company I worked for would have several managers make sure they talked with an applicant during their paid try out week, just to get feedback and see if our company was a good fit for them. I could tell this one lady – almost in tears – was distraught over the high demands in time and energy the assistant manager’s job would entail and the stress that might put on her marriage and family. I knew she was highly qualified and would probably be great at the job – but something else kept coming to mind. I remembered myself in TWI as a workaholic. I put the ministry first before my wife and kids – and my marriage and kids suffered because of that.
I didn’t want to tell her what to do and I wasn’t going to tell her about my other strange life in a cult
. What I did do was encourage her to re-evaluate her priorities and if hubby and family still outweigh this job then it’s not a good fit for you…She decided to not take the job. Was it God? Was it just me being empathetic? Was it God reminding me to be considerate? I don’t know…It just feels a lot better doing things this way. No big whoop.
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Charity
Your posts always give me so much to think about - I'll get back to you on this.
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WordWolf
I'm not sure I'll have anything useful to offer, but here's my thinking on the subject.....
The answer will either be one of two things, or possibly both simultaneously (which I suspect may be correct.)
A) God is not a respecter of persons, so He relates to all of us the same. To do that, He has to relate on a very fundamental level for each of us as a person. As such, we probably wouldn't be aware of activity at that level. I was realizing I had something to post when I read the question "How does God work in us?" and skipped "Very well, thank you" to "He just does it." I realized that might say something.
B) As a very individual God who works with each and every one of us, He would work slightly differently for each person who seeks Him. For someone who earnestly seeks an intellectual relationship with Him, he might relate on a more technical, informative level. For someone who seeks Him but at a more instinctive level, His relationship would reflect that, as well.
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chockfull
Clear easy logic. The B part I think TWI explains away with a custom hs lower case that is your personalized Iron Man suit.
There is a little dichotomy in God being subjective and objective at the same time, but I have grown more comfortable with dichotomies in my viewpoints.
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Charity
Hi Chockfull, can you explain more about how TWI explains away with a custom hs lower case that is your personalized Iron Man suit? Is the HS and hs another inaccurate doctrine?
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chockfull
From recollection the Christ in you is now your personal hs handcrafted so God can speak directly to you spiritually. But it only works to energize the manifestations. They teach Christs hands behind your hands eyes behind your eyes etc. part of your hs gift. It’s why so much emphasis on the SIT part.
Yes I personally believe HS hs to be another inaccurate doctrine contrived to explain away VPs particular fundamentalist approach to gifts and manifestations.
No I can’t explain more about it it all is a large cyclical logical hoax. To keep the mind of the hamster as occupied as the body is running on the wheel of weekly scheduled fellowship activities.
I believe the truth of the Godhead to be different than VPs version I believe the Comforter to be real.
However I don’t have a rote explanation for everything all worked out into a nice package yet. Maybe never will. Maybe part of that is working out my own salvation with respect and obedience.
Being honest.
Remembering more. The Great Principle. God who is Spirit teaches His creation in you which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then it becomes manifest in the senses realm when you act.
Thats the PFAL teaching.
To me today that sounds like a recipe to develop a split personality. I’ve got my lo shanta personality. And I’ve got my regular personality.
God energizes the Comforter who is Holy Spirit. He energizes and catalyzes the needed power. As part of the godhead. I pray, study, act virtuously. He supplies my need. In many different and wonderful ways. More than 9 ways.
That could be an alternate understanding of whatever Bullshonta the GP is. I’m not teaching it like it’s my class just an idea of a different view.
All I got now.
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chockfull
I really am not interested in making up an alternate plausible explanation for everything erroneous about the Way.
I think God designed Christianity as easy enough for the average man to grasp and live.
Pray, read scripture, fellowship, interact in your circles and communities. Be inclusive not exclusive.
The more I get cornered in thinking into needing to explain away and replace each detail of PFAL logic the more self enveloping it is, pulling me back in to the obsessive and destructive mindset of my past.
And the more idiots will dissect whatever I say in closed rooms to justify themselves. Not you Charity we are having a cool talk. I mean the others who watch in silence with evil in their hearts towards those of us on this site.
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Charity
Hi Twinky, I was reading Galatians this morning and came across 3:8 which says, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would declare the Gentiles righteous by trust, proclaimed the good news to Abraham ahead of time, saying, In you all the nations will be blessed" This verse made a reference to Gen 18:18 which says, "since Abraham will become, yes, become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed in him?"
So what I'm understanding from this is that Abraham (through his seed) became a great nation of Jews. This leaves all the other nations being non-Jewish, meaning Gentiles. But there's still the question of why will the Gentiles need healing since they would be in the new heaven and new earth?
The question has really peaked my interest, so I plan to research it on the Internet.
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Charity
If they are anything like vp (which it sounds like they are), their thoughts and words carry no weight as for as Christ is concerned. I wrote this on The Absent Christ thread this morning.
"I just read yesterday in Undertow about Charlene being confronted by vp for the first time. She idolized this man and was working at hq hoping to be accepted into the corps that September. She was also fairly new to the ministry and only 19 years old. He was crude and "barked" and "snapped" at her and then sent her and another young girl packing all because they were not aware of what a twig leader was doing. She was a groveling mess and vowed to do her best by the time she left the room in response to his "Get outta here." How non-Christlike!"
I know what you mean about being pulled back into twi's rubbish. Reading Undertow can bring up some pretty unpleasant emotional memories of just how bad it was back then.
"Not you Charity we are having a cool talk" - thanks Chockful (picture a happy face here)- it was nice that you mentioned this (maybe to help me from taking things too seriously
lol). I mentioned before that I was pretty detailed oriented, even as a child. Sometimes, I even become OCD about things which can cause me to waste a lot of time, energy and brain cells as well as drive other people nuts. Instead of asking a lot of questions, I'm learning to do some research on my own first and later share what I've learned.
Have a great weekend!
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