I am no theologian, nor do I wish to engage in theological arguments. But the best way I know to build a personal relationship and understanding with/of God is through His Word. I strongly suggest getting a hold of a version other than KJV, such as the New International Version, Revised Standard Version, or the ESV. Another thing that helps me is One Year Bible Online. This app provides daily readings selected from the Old Testament, New Testament, Pslams, and Proverbs. You might want to start this on 1/1/2023. There's audio with commentary or you can just read the verses for yourself. Try to edit out all the guano and legalism you have previously learned as you listen/read.
So when I read Phil 2:12,13 which says I am to work out my own salvation for it is God who is working in you both to want to do, and to do, his good pleasure, I wondered what did this all entail and how does He do it. I'm especially thinking about experiencing the fruit of the spirit (Gal 5:22,23) and living with the power of God in our lives.
If God and Christ don’t have to get the approval of your overseer in TWI then the relationship is a lot less hindered.
Fruit is an extended metaphor I suppose. Is that called an allegory? Maybe. The only real practical example of that figure of speech I have from TWI is men in tights seed of the serpent dance. Which probably would require multiple threads to talk about what is wrong there.
Anyhoo back to allegories.
Fruit as an allegory indicates God wants us to pay attention to the farming cycle and plant life cycle. How does that work? Repetitive action and key ingredients are met by God and energized and a plant grows up and bears fruit.
So live a godly life and you will bear godly fruit in time.
If God and Christ don’t have to get the approval of your overseer in TWI then the relationship is a lot less hindered.
Fruit is an extended metaphor I suppose. Is that called an allegory? Maybe. The only real practical example of that figure of speech I have from TWI is men in tights seed of the serpent dance. Which probably would require multiple threads to talk about what is wrong there.
Anyhoo back to allegories.
Fruit as an allegory indicates God wants us to pay attention to the farming cycle and plant life cycle. How does that work? Repetitive action and key ingredients are met by God and energized and a plant grows up and bears fruit.
So live a godly life and you will bear godly fruit in time.
Sorry if truth isn’t rocket science.
Chockfull said, "The only real practical example of that figure of speech I have from TWI is men in tights seed of the serpent dance. Which probably would require multiple threads to talk about what is wrong there." This is so very funny - I'm still laughing because I can still picture it as you described it. Thanks for sharing it .
In twi, bearing fruit of the spirit is what happens when you manifest the 9 manifestations of the spirit of which SIT was foundational. In my experience, however, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, and self-control did not just spring up just because I SIT in my head.
So living brings about bearing. Makes a lot of sense since living a godly life includes doing the fruit of the spirit (be loving, good, kind, etc.). So you already have the fruit before bearing more of it. This brings to mind (using your plant life cycle), is that doing the fruit is like planting the seed and since seed can only produce after its own kind (one apple seed grows into an apple tree which produces a lot of apples), then doing love will produce more love in us. This is true for anyone, believer or non-believer.
My question then is how does the phrase "fruit of the spirit" fit in? It seems to have some connection to the spirit we receive when we're born again.
In twi, bearing fruit of the spirit is what happens when you manifest the 9 manifestations of the spirit of which SIT was foundational. In my experience, however, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, and self-control did not just spring up just because I SIT in my head.
TWI has it wrong once again. Fruit of the Spirit are characteristics of the new nature, just as the works of the flesh are contrasted against fruit of the spirit.
I am no theologian, nor do I wish to engage in theological arguments. But the best way I know to build a personal relationship and understanding with/of God is through His Word. I strongly suggest getting a hold of a version other than KJV, such as the New International Version, Revised Standard Version, or the ESV. Another thing that helps me is One Year Bible Online. This app provides daily readings selected from the Old Testament, New Testament, Pslams, and Proverbs. You might want to start this on 1/1/2023. There's audio with commentary or you can just read the verses for yourself. Try to edit out all the guano and legalism you have previously learned as you listen/read.
God bless!
I agree with "through His Word" and I'm glad you share it. Now I know that the beliefs of twi, that the Bible (as vp taught it) was the "inherent accuracy of God's Word" and that it "fits together like a hand in a glove," are just not possible. His proclamation that he taught the Word as it hadn't been taught since the apostles of the first century is also impossible. All of these states are false.
So what we're left with are the different versions of the Bible which I still believe is an important way of getting to know God and Jesus Christ. A discussion of spiritual matters using critical thinking and done with respect I think is possible on GSC.
I'm hoping to have a discussion about how God works in our lives.
Well, not to give a pat answer, but how God works in our lives is as unique as we are individually. At times God has spoken to me through other people as they stated things about my life that I had never told them or anyone else for that matter and then spoke to my heart the way only God would know to inspire in them. Ive had visions before that were very vivid. For me, most times it's a peaceful "knowing" that this is the way, walk ye in it. However, here's the best advice I could ever give anyone on the subject. Have faith/trust in God that if he needs to work in you for whatever reason he will know just how to get your attention. Go ahead and toss all the garbage TWI has on the subject, they are clueless for the most part. That crap about speaking in tongues strengthens your inner man like spiritual weight lifting so you are built up enough to receive revelation...all trash. How on earth can God give something that is given the same measure to us all and then we need to build it up before it works...makes no sense. If God needs you to do something he will get your attention and he will do it in a way that's understood by you.
TWI has it wrong once again. Fruit of the Spirit are characteristics of the new nature, just as the works of the flesh are contrasted against fruit of the spirit.
How do we manifest that new nature? Is it only through the renewed mind which we are responsible for doing? How does God working in us (as in present tense) fit into this? Phil 2:13
I agree with "through His Word" and I'm glad you share it.
I agree that working scripture is a good thing to do, hands down. However, TWI placed study on a pedestal that doesn't fit. That we have a bible is cool, never been easier to study and we should do so as we determine. However, consider how powerfully they walked in the book of Acts...guess what? They didnt have Bibles. Most of them used the Apocryphia for what we know as the Old Testament, including Jesus Christ. Scripture was on scrolls, papyrus, etc..and kept in the temple or Synagogues. The public really didn't have access unless you were wealthy enough to afford your own set, or went to the Synagogue or Temple. Wierwille made Christianity into an intellectual pursuit, while the Bible clearly states that knowledge puffeth up.
Love trumps it all. Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. Love your neghbor as yourself. Love trumps doctrine any day of the week and God isn't bound by our knowledge, or lack of knowledge of scripture. They walked the way they did in the first century because Christianity is relationship based. God is our Father, Christ is our Lord and head. That simple.
How do we manifest that new nature? Is it only through the renewed mind which we are responsible for doing? How does God working in us (as in present tense) fit into this? Phil 2:13
Back up a verse:
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Renewing one's mind isnt necessarily what TWI says it is. Renewing my mind can be as simple as putting off lying: Im extra carefult to speak the truth. When I mess up and lie, we all do, I confess the sin. I no longer elevate the Church Epistles to the detriment of the rest of scripture. However, it's in the Church epistles where our true, new selves are exposed. It's like looking into a mirror: On one side you have that old nasy nature that's enmity against God, the other you have the new nature thats literally a new creation, thereby giving us a choice to not follow the old ways. The conflict within a person is listed in Romans 7 and Romans 8 given as the other option.
Well, not to give a pat answer, but how God works in our lives is as unique as we are individually. At times God has spoken to me through other people as they stated things about my life that I had never told them or anyone else for that matter other people. Ive had visions before that were very vivid. For me, most time sother people. However, here's the best advice I could ever give anyone on the subject. Have faith/trust in God that if he needs to work in you for whatever reason he will know just how to get your attention. Go ahead and toss all the garbage TWI has on the subject, they are clueless for the most part. That crap about speaking in tongues strengthens your inner man like spiritual weight lifting so you are built up enough to receive revelation...all trash. How on earth can God give something that is given the same measure to us all and then we need to build it up before it works...makes no sense. If God needs you to do something he will get your attention and he will do it in a way that's understood by you.
OMG - I was copying and pasting some of the words you used up above and I somehow messed up your post. Please resend it to me.
I agree that working scripture is a good thing to do, hands down. However, TWI placed study on a pedestal that doesn't fit. That we have a bible is cool, never been easier to study and we should do so as we determine. However, consider how powerfully they walked in the book of Acts...guess what? They didnt have Bibles. Most of them used the Apocryphia for what we know as the Old Testament, including Jesus Christ. Scripture was on scrolls, papyrus, etc..and kept in the temple or Synagogues. The public really didn't have access unless you were wealthy enough to afford your own set, or went to the Synagogue or Temple. Wierwille made Christianity into an intellectual pursuit, while the Bible clearly states that knowledge puffeth up.
Love trumps it all. Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. Love your neghbor as yourself. Love trumps doctrine any day of the week and God isn't bound by our knowledge, or lack of knowledge of scripture. They walked the way they did in the first century because Christianity is relationship based. God is our Father, Christ is our Lord and head. That simple.
3 minutes ago, Charity said:
OMG - I was copying and pasting some of the words you used up above and I somehow messed up your post. Please resend it to me.
Honestly OldSkool, I looked for your original post before I sent the one above asking you to resend it, but I didn't see it. I thing it's the scrolling up and down that throws me off. Anyway, I have found your original post!
I agree that working scripture is a good thing to do, hands down. However, TWI placed study on a pedestal that doesn't fit. That we have a bible is cool, never been easier to study and we should do so as we determine. However, consider how powerfully they walked in the book of Acts...guess what? They didnt have Bibles. Most of them used the Apocryphia for what we know as the Old Testament, including Jesus Christ. Scripture was on scrolls, papyrus, etc..and kept in the temple or Synagogues. The public really didn't have access unless you were wealthy enough to afford your own set, or went to the Synagogue or Temple. Wierwille made Christianity into an intellectual pursuit, while the Bible clearly states that knowledge puffeth up.
Love trumps it all. Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. Love your neghbor as yourself. Love trumps doctrine any day of the week and God isn't bound by our knowledge, or lack of knowledge of scripture. They walked the way they did in the first century because Christianity is relationship based. God is our Father, Christ is our Lord and head. That simple.
You made many good points. Thank you. I was thinking of the pedestal thing with twi - it's the word, the word and nothing but the word. That's why I said I still believed the Bible is an important way of getting to know God and Jesus Christ. I was going to write "the" important way, but I'm learning there are other ways that are important as well.
I what you said about love. It's the whole 1 Cor 13's "but have not love" truth.
Reading the book of Acts is top of my to-do list especially in the context of what the Jews knew at the time before apostles arrived to teach them or before they had their turn of reading the epistles. And those poor Gentiles didn't even have the knowledge of the OT.
My question then is how does the phrase "fruit of the spirit" fit in? It seems to have some connection to the spirit we receive when we're born again.
I guess logically in the allegory since we have incorruptible seed as the new birth referred to, of the spirit would trace the genetive origin back to the seed.
The new birth is like a seed that is planted. Inside the seed is the new nature connected to Christ, where the Word is written in your hearts. A virtuous new nature.
This seed has to be watered and tended. Weeds must be removed. It must be cared for. Plants that are cared for by a gardener who is diligent with love produce a greater harvest of fruit than a forgetful or part time gardener, or one that doesn’t weed or feed or prune.
In time the seed of this new man nature along with careful tending produces a bountiful harvest of fruit.
Allegory.
I think the figure of speech is tracing and developing an idea in 3d color so to speak.
Well, not to give a pat answer, but how God works in our lives is as unique as we are individually. At times God has spoken to me through other people as they stated things about my life that I had never told them or anyone else for that matter and then spoke to my heart the way only God would know to inspire in them. Ive had visions before that were very vivid. For me, most times it's a peaceful "knowing" that this is the way, walk ye in it. However, here's the best advice I could ever give anyone on the subject. Have faith/trust in God that if he needs to work in you for whatever reason he will know just how to get your attention. Go ahead and toss all the garbage TWI has on the subject, they are clueless for the most part. That crap about speaking in tongues strengthens your inner man like spiritual weight lifting so you are built up enough to receive revelation...all trash. How on earth can God give something that is given the same measure to us all and then we need to build it up before it works...makes no sense. If God needs you to do something he will get your attention and he will do it in a way that's understood by you.
You wrote (the underlining is mine): "At times God has spoken to me through other people as they stated things about my life that I had never told them or anyone else for that matter and then spoke to my heart the way only God would know to inspire in them." This is so loving and inspiring in sharp contrast to the "in-your-face" and condemning reproof that was given in twi or the "personal prophecy" horror show that some ex-way followers began to practice in an off-shoot ministry.
You wrote: "For me, most times it's a peaceful "knowing" that this is the way, walk ye in it." A peaceful "knowing" may well be the key when discerning if what you're hearing is really from God. There's nothing wrong with being excited about learning the Bible or having fellowship with others who are excited about God, His Word and Jesus. But as I read Charlene's book, "Undertow" and look back to the time I became involved with twi, it was not "a peaceful knowing." It was more of a "hyped-up knowing" or the "adrenaline-rush kind of knowing" from hearing about the "man of God," the "biblical research and teaching ministry," the "class etc." The teachings were great (based on what little I knew of the Bible), but they could also have been called the "opening act" with the main attraction being "way stuff" that came after (including being shown the "incredible" green card."
It is important to listen for and hear that quiet still voice from God.
That's why I said I still believed the Bible is an important way of getting to know God and Jesus Christ.
Absolutely. Keep in mind Im taking nothing away from scripture, I mean it's God's Word that he magnified above his name and scripture is VITAL. But do consider that many Biblical scholars estimate that it's only been about 6000 or so years since Adam. Whether or not thats true is debatable, so I get that and am not trying to introduce a debate but am just making a point. For arguments sake, let's say it has been 6000 years. Well, that leaves only about 567 years since 1455 when the first printed Bible was pressed. So thats around 5433 years where there was no Bible. Yes - scripture was recorded on stone tablets, scrolls, papyrus, on through the ages. There's also the stars, which I do not understand, theres prophets, etc. But for wierwille to say the word the word and nothing but the word...the man was either ignorant of history, which is likely, and/or he was pushing his agenda that what he said = the word.
Reading the book of Acts is top of my to-do list especially in the context of what the Jews knew at the time before apostles arrived to teach them or before they had their turn of reading the epistles. And those poor Gentiles didn't even have the knowledge of the OT.
John the Baptist was a Jew. Jesus was a Jew, as was Peter and Jesus’ brother, James. What can we know about them? Turns out, more than ol’ victor was apt to teach.
Paul claimed to be a Jew. He also said he could be anything to anyone in order to persuade them to HIS gospel. Luke/Acts narrates from one POV. It’s the only POV, if you let it be.
I, too, am interested in what the Jews knew, particularly the sects of Messianic Judaism linked to those at Qumran. Are you familiar with the Dead Sea Scrolls? Are you familiar with the Gospel of Thomas?
I don’t presume to have any answers. The endeavor of free inquiry itself is often satisfying enough, even if it gives rise to more questions, which inevitably it will.
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Renewing one's mind isnt necessarily what TWI says it is. Renewing my mind can be as simple as putting off lying: Im extra carefult to speak the truth. When I mess up and lie, we all do, I confess the sin. I no longer elevate the Church Epistles to the detriment of the rest of scripture. However, it's in the Church epistles where our true, new selves are exposed. It's like looking into a mirror: On one side you have that old nasy nature that's enmity against God, the other you have the new nature thats literally a new creation, thereby giving us a choice to not follow the old ways. The conflict within a person is listed in Romans 7 and Romans 8 given as the other option.
I was looking at Romans 7 yesterday. It covers what you wrote above as well as the choice between living by the law which held people captive (for us, the law would have been all of twi's rules and expectations) and serving in the newness of the spirit. Reading it again now, I'm still trying to understand the last verse where it says, "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God." I finally clicked over to read chapter 8 (like you also recommended) and WOW - there's a LOT in there related to this verse. It's been a while since I've read this chapter - I'll look at it more closely tomorrow. So cool .
I was looking at Romans 7 yesterday. It covers what you wrote above as well as the choice between living by the law which held people captive (for us, the law would have been all of twi's rules and expectations) and serving in the newness of the spirit. Reading it again now, I'm still trying to understand the last verse where it says, "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God." I finally clicked over to read chapter 8 (like you also recommended) and WOW - there's a LOT in there related to this verse. It's been a while since I've read this chapter - I'll look at it more closely tomorrow. So cool .
Just ignore the chapter break for continuity.
Romans:
Romans shows the need for a savior and concludes all of mankind under dominion of sin. The book starts out with sins people commit, both gentile and Israel. It concludes that even though Israel had Mosiac law they could never live up to it. So the just shall live by faith. The book then moves into what Charles Welsch called an inner section, and I can agree with him. That innersection goes straight into the sin nature itself, the corruption inherrent in all people.
Its in chapter 7 that the sin nature is laid bare, fully exposed. No matter how much desire a person had to serve the law of God, no matter how well they knew the law, the sin nature that dwells in the flesh produced evil and it was the law itself that exposed the evil, thus the law of sin and death.
So chapter 8 moves into God's solution to the problem. And it slowly winds out of the innter section back into a doctrinal section by the time we get to chaper 12. Enjoy.
John the Baptist was a Jew. Jesus was a Jew, as was Peter and Jesus’ brother, James. What can we know about them? Turns out, more than ol’ victor was apt to teach.
Paul claimed to be a Jew. He also said he could be anything to anyone in order to persuade them to HIS gospel. Luke/Acts narrates from one POV. It’s the only POV, if you let it be.
I, too, am interested in what the Jews knew, particularly the sects of Messianic Judaism linked to those at Qumran. Are you familiar with the Dead Sea Scrolls? Are you familiar with the Gospel of Thomas?
I don’t presume to have any answers. The endeavor of free inquiry itself is often satisfying enough, even if it gives rise to more questions, which inevitably it will.
Your first sentence made me think of what it would have been like to be a Jew living during the time of Jesus' ministry - to hear him teach and see the miracles he did and be there for his resurrection and ascension into heaven. Yet many of the Jews stopped following Jesus him because they couldn't accept some of the things he said like in John 6:53-66, while those who were expecting Jesus to literally become their king gave up on him when they saw him crucified.
I do not know anything about the history of the Jews or about the history of how the Bible came to be, but I'd like to learn. I'll add them to my bucket list.
Your first sentence made me think of what it would have been like to be a Jew living during the time of Jesus' ministry - to hear him teach and see the miracles he did and be there for his resurrection and ascension into heaven. Yet many of the Jews stopped following Jesus him because they couldn't accept some of the things he said like in John 6:53-66, while those who were expecting Jesus to literally become their king gave up on him when they saw him crucified.
I do not know anything about the history of the Jews or about the history of how the Bible came to be, but I'd like to learn. I'll add them to my bucket list.
Yep. All that flesh and blood eating would have been cray cray for the Jews at that time to hear.
I guess logically in the allegory since we have incorruptible seed as the new birth referred to, of the spirit would trace the genetive origin back to the seed.
The new birth is like a seed that is planted. Inside the seed is the new nature connected to Christ, where the Word is written in your hearts. A virtuous new nature.
This seed has to be watered and tended. Weeds must be removed. It must be cared for. Plants that are cared for by a gardener who is diligent with love produce a greater harvest of fruit than a forgetful or part time gardener, or one that doesn’t weed or feed or prune.
In time the seed of this new man nature along with careful tending produces a bountiful harvest of fruit.
Allegory.
I think the figure of speech is tracing and developing an idea in 3d color so to speak.
I like your description of the new birth being the incorruptible seed and what such a seed needs in order to grow. I went for a walk a while ago and I was thinking more about some of the things I had posted. Then, I read your reply after I got back. What you said about the fruit of the spirit being traced back to the seed is along the line of what I was thinking during my walk. I had written that anyone, believer or not, could be those things that are included in the list of the fruit of the spirit: loving, peaceful, patient, kind, etc. Then it became clearer to me what the difference is between a believer doing them and a non-Christian doing them. It goes back to the seed being the new birth (aka, gift of holy spirit, God's divine nature, new creation, etc.)
Non-Christian can experience and give love, but only Christians can experience and give God's love because it's in the seed of the new birth. It's like this for each of the fruits of the spirit. Only Christians can experience the peace that passes all understanding or the joy that comes from rejoicing in the Lord. Because the fruit comes by way of the spirit, each one is experienced in a deeper, greater and spiritual sense for the Christian. It's all such great stuff!
Romans shows the need for a savior and concludes all of mankind under dominion of sin. The book starts out with sins people commit, both gentile and Israel. It concludes that even though Israel had Mosiac law they could never live up to it. So the just shall live by faith. The book then moves into what Charles Welsch called an inner section, and I can agree with him. That innersection goes straight into the sin nature itself, the corruption inherrent in all people.
Its in chapter 7 that the sin nature is laid bare, fully exposed. No matter how much desire a person had to serve the law of God, no matter how well they knew the law, the sin nature that dwells in the flesh produced evil and it was the law itself that exposed the evil, thus the law of sin and death.
So chapter 8 moves into God's solution to the problem. And it slowly winds out of the innter section back into a doctrinal section by the time we get to chaper 12. Enjoy.
You explain things quite well Oldskool. Did you enjoy teaching the Word while in the ministry?
Absolutely. Keep in mind Im taking nothing away from scripture, I mean it's God's Word that he magnified above his name and scripture is VITAL. But do consider that many Biblical scholars estimate that it's only been about 6000 or so years since Adam. Whether or not thats true is debatable, so I get that and am not trying to introduce a debate but am just making a point. For arguments sake, let's say it has been 6000 years. Well, that leaves only about 567 years since 1455 when the first printed Bible was pressed. So thats around 5433 years where there was no Bible. Yes - scripture was recorded on stone tablets, scrolls, papyrus, on through the ages. There's also the stars, which I do not understand, theres prophets, etc. But for wierwille to say the word the word and nothing but the word...the man was either ignorant of history, which is likely, and/or he was pushing his agenda that what he said = the word.
God obviously was protecting His Word by way of all those who moved it along. I wonder if anything else dating so far back has been preserved to this day.
God obviously was protecting His Word by way of all those who moved it along. I wonder if anything else dating so far back has been preserved to this day.
We have writings of the ancient Sumerians that have been dated to around 3500 BC.
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Twinky
I sing with a church music group. This year, I've asked if a group of us can go into a nearby care home (where I have an old friend) and sing carols for a little while. So that's what I'm doing on 2
OldSkool
I agree that working scripture is a good thing to do, hands down. However, TWI placed study on a pedestal that doesn't fit. That we have a bible is cool, never been easier to study and we should do so
Twinky
These days, I'm a s/emp gardener. I just love being in gardens and helping plants "be their best." I learn so much about God, and about living, from tending plants. Plant something in the rig
Watered Garden
I am no theologian, nor do I wish to engage in theological arguments. But the best way I know to build a personal relationship and understanding with/of God is through His Word. I strongly suggest getting a hold of a version other than KJV, such as the New International Version, Revised Standard Version, or the ESV. Another thing that helps me is One Year Bible Online. This app provides daily readings selected from the Old Testament, New Testament, Pslams, and Proverbs. You might want to start this on 1/1/2023. There's audio with commentary or you can just read the verses for yourself. Try to edit out all the guano and legalism you have previously learned as you listen/read.
God bless!
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chockfull
If God and Christ don’t have to get the approval of your overseer in TWI then the relationship is a lot less hindered.
Fruit is an extended metaphor I suppose. Is that called an allegory? Maybe. The only real practical example of that figure of speech I have from TWI is men in tights seed of the serpent dance. Which probably would require multiple threads to talk about what is wrong there.
Anyhoo back to allegories.
Fruit as an allegory indicates God wants us to pay attention to the farming cycle and plant life cycle. How does that work? Repetitive action and key ingredients are met by God and energized and a plant grows up and bears fruit.
So live a godly life and you will bear godly fruit in time.
Sorry if truth isn’t rocket science.
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Charity
Chockfull said, "The only real practical example of that figure of speech I have from TWI is men in tights seed of the serpent dance. Which probably would require multiple threads to talk about what is wrong there." This is so very funny - I'm still laughing because I can still picture it as you described it. Thanks for sharing it
.
In twi, bearing fruit of the spirit is what happens when you manifest the 9 manifestations of the spirit of which SIT was foundational. In my experience, however, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, and self-control did not just spring up just because I SIT in my head.
So living brings about bearing. Makes a lot of sense since living a godly life includes doing the fruit of the spirit (be loving, good, kind, etc.). So you already have the fruit before bearing more of it. This brings to mind (using your plant life cycle), is that doing the fruit is like planting the seed and since seed can only produce after its own kind (one apple seed grows into an apple tree which produces a lot of apples), then doing love will produce more love in us. This is true for anyone, believer or non-believer.
My question then is how does the phrase "fruit of the spirit" fit in? It seems to have some connection to the spirit we receive when we're born again.
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OldSkool
TWI has it wrong once again. Fruit of the Spirit are characteristics of the new nature, just as the works of the flesh are contrasted against fruit of the spirit.
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Charity
I agree with "through His Word" and I'm glad you share it. Now I know that the beliefs of twi, that the Bible (as vp taught it) was the "inherent accuracy of God's Word" and that it "fits together like a hand in a glove," are just not possible. His proclamation that he taught the Word as it hadn't been taught since the apostles of the first century is also impossible. All of these states are false.
So what we're left with are the different versions of the Bible which I still believe is an important way of getting to know God and Jesus Christ. A discussion of spiritual matters using critical thinking and done with respect I think is possible on GSC.
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OldSkool
Well, not to give a pat answer, but how God works in our lives is as unique as we are individually. At times God has spoken to me through other people as they stated things about my life that I had never told them or anyone else for that matter and then spoke to my heart the way only God would know to inspire in them. Ive had visions before that were very vivid. For me, most times it's a peaceful "knowing" that this is the way, walk ye in it. However, here's the best advice I could ever give anyone on the subject. Have faith/trust in God that if he needs to work in you for whatever reason he will know just how to get your attention. Go ahead and toss all the garbage TWI has on the subject, they are clueless for the most part. That crap about speaking in tongues strengthens your inner man like spiritual weight lifting so you are built up enough to receive revelation...all trash. How on earth can God give something that is given the same measure to us all and then we need to build it up before it works...makes no sense. If God needs you to do something he will get your attention and he will do it in a way that's understood by you.
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Charity
How do we manifest that new nature? Is it only through the renewed mind which we are responsible for doing? How does God working in us (as in present tense) fit into this? Phil 2:13
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OldSkool
I agree that working scripture is a good thing to do, hands down. However, TWI placed study on a pedestal that doesn't fit. That we have a bible is cool, never been easier to study and we should do so as we determine. However, consider how powerfully they walked in the book of Acts...guess what? They didnt have Bibles. Most of them used the Apocryphia for what we know as the Old Testament, including Jesus Christ. Scripture was on scrolls, papyrus, etc..and kept in the temple or Synagogues. The public really didn't have access unless you were wealthy enough to afford your own set, or went to the Synagogue or Temple. Wierwille made Christianity into an intellectual pursuit, while the Bible clearly states that knowledge puffeth up.
Love trumps it all. Love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. Love your neghbor as yourself. Love trumps doctrine any day of the week and God isn't bound by our knowledge, or lack of knowledge of scripture. They walked the way they did in the first century because Christianity is relationship based. God is our Father, Christ is our Lord and head. That simple.
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OldSkool
Back up a verse:
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Renewing one's mind isnt necessarily what TWI says it is. Renewing my mind can be as simple as putting off lying: Im extra carefult to speak the truth. When I mess up and lie, we all do, I confess the sin. I no longer elevate the Church Epistles to the detriment of the rest of scripture. However, it's in the Church epistles where our true, new selves are exposed. It's like looking into a mirror: On one side you have that old nasy nature that's enmity against God, the other you have the new nature thats literally a new creation, thereby giving us a choice to not follow the old ways. The conflict within a person is listed in Romans 7 and Romans 8 given as the other option.
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Charity
OMG - I was copying and pasting some of the words you used up above and I somehow messed up your post. Please resend it to me.
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Charity
Honestly OldSkool, I looked for your original post before I sent the one above asking you to resend it, but I didn't see it. I thing it's the scrolling up and down that throws me off. Anyway, I have found your original post!
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Charity
You made many good points. Thank you. I was thinking of the pedestal thing with twi - it's the word, the word and nothing but the word. That's why I said I still believed the Bible is an important way of getting to know God and Jesus Christ. I was going to write "the" important way, but I'm learning there are other ways that are important as well.
I
what you said about love. It's the whole 1 Cor 13's "but have not love" truth.
Reading the book of Acts is top of my to-do list especially in the context of what the Jews knew at the time before apostles arrived to teach them or before they had their turn of reading the epistles. And those poor Gentiles didn't even have the knowledge of the OT.
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chockfull
I guess logically in the allegory since we have incorruptible seed as the new birth referred to, of the spirit would trace the genetive origin back to the seed.
The new birth is like a seed that is planted. Inside the seed is the new nature connected to Christ, where the Word is written in your hearts. A virtuous new nature.
This seed has to be watered and tended. Weeds must be removed. It must be cared for. Plants that are cared for by a gardener who is diligent with love produce a greater harvest of fruit than a forgetful or part time gardener, or one that doesn’t weed or feed or prune.
In time the seed of this new man nature along with careful tending produces a bountiful harvest of fruit.
Allegory.
I think the figure of speech is tracing and developing an idea in 3d color so to speak.
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Charity
You wrote (the underlining is mine): "At times God has spoken to me through other people as they stated things about my life that I had never told them or anyone else for that matter and then spoke to my heart the way only God would know to inspire in them." This is so loving and inspiring in sharp contrast to the "in-your-face" and condemning reproof that was given in twi or the "personal prophecy" horror show that some ex-way followers began to practice in an off-shoot ministry.
You wrote: "For me, most times it's a peaceful "knowing" that this is the way, walk ye in it." A peaceful "knowing" may well be the key when discerning if what you're hearing is really from God. There's nothing wrong with being excited about learning the Bible or having fellowship with others who are excited about God, His Word and Jesus. But as I read Charlene's book, "Undertow" and look back to the time I became involved with twi, it was not "a peaceful knowing." It was more of a "hyped-up knowing" or the "adrenaline-rush kind of knowing" from hearing about the "man of God," the "biblical research and teaching ministry," the "class etc." The teachings were great (based on what little I knew of the Bible), but they could also have been called the "opening act" with the main attraction being "way stuff" that came after (including being shown the "incredible" green card."
It is important to listen for and hear that quiet still voice from God.
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OldSkool
Absolutely. Keep in mind Im taking nothing away from scripture, I mean it's God's Word that he magnified above his name and scripture is VITAL. But do consider that many Biblical scholars estimate that it's only been about 6000 or so years since Adam. Whether or not thats true is debatable, so I get that and am not trying to introduce a debate but am just making a point. For arguments sake, let's say it has been 6000 years. Well, that leaves only about 567 years since 1455 when the first printed Bible was pressed. So thats around 5433 years where there was no Bible. Yes - scripture was recorded on stone tablets, scrolls, papyrus, on through the ages. There's also the stars, which I do not understand, theres prophets, etc. But for wierwille to say the word the word and nothing but the word...the man was either ignorant of history, which is likely, and/or he was pushing his agenda that what he said = the word.
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Nathan_Jr
John the Baptist was a Jew. Jesus was a Jew, as was Peter and Jesus’ brother, James. What can we know about them? Turns out, more than ol’ victor was apt to teach.
Paul claimed to be a Jew. He also said he could be anything to anyone in order to persuade them to HIS gospel. Luke/Acts narrates from one POV. It’s the only POV, if you let it be.
I, too, am interested in what the Jews knew, particularly the sects of Messianic Judaism linked to those at Qumran. Are you familiar with the Dead Sea Scrolls? Are you familiar with the Gospel of Thomas?
I don’t presume to have any answers. The endeavor of free inquiry itself is often satisfying enough, even if it gives rise to more questions, which inevitably it will.
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Charity
I was looking at Romans 7 yesterday. It covers what you wrote above as well as the choice between living by the law which held people captive (for us, the law would have been all of twi's rules and expectations) and serving in the newness of the spirit. Reading it again now, I'm still trying to understand the last verse where it says, "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God." I finally clicked over to read chapter 8 (like you also recommended) and WOW - there's a LOT in there related to this verse. It's been a while since I've read this chapter - I'll look at it more closely tomorrow. So cool
.
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OldSkool
Just ignore the chapter break for continuity.
Romans:
Romans shows the need for a savior and concludes all of mankind under dominion of sin. The book starts out with sins people commit, both gentile and Israel. It concludes that even though Israel had Mosiac law they could never live up to it. So the just shall live by faith. The book then moves into what Charles Welsch called an inner section, and I can agree with him. That innersection goes straight into the sin nature itself, the corruption inherrent in all people.
Its in chapter 7 that the sin nature is laid bare, fully exposed. No matter how much desire a person had to serve the law of God, no matter how well they knew the law, the sin nature that dwells in the flesh produced evil and it was the law itself that exposed the evil, thus the law of sin and death.
So chapter 8 moves into God's solution to the problem. And it slowly winds out of the innter section back into a doctrinal section by the time we get to chaper 12. Enjoy.
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Charity
Your first sentence made me think of what it would have been like to be a Jew living during the time of Jesus' ministry - to hear him teach and see the miracles he did and be there for his resurrection and ascension into heaven. Yet many of the Jews stopped following Jesus him because they couldn't accept some of the things he said like in John 6:53-66, while those who were expecting Jesus to literally become their king gave up on him when they saw him crucified.
I do not know anything about the history of the Jews or about the history of how the Bible came to be, but I'd like to learn. I'll add them to my bucket list.
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Nathan_Jr
Yep. All that flesh and blood eating would have been cray cray for the Jews at that time to hear.
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Charity
I like your description of the new birth being the incorruptible seed and what such a seed needs in order to grow. I went for a walk a while ago and I was thinking more about some of the things I had posted. Then, I read your reply after I got back. What you said about the fruit of the spirit being traced back to the seed is along the line of what I was thinking during my walk. I had written that anyone, believer or not, could be those things that are included in the list of the fruit of the spirit: loving, peaceful, patient, kind, etc. Then it became clearer to me what the difference is between a believer doing them and a non-Christian doing them. It goes back to the seed being the new birth (aka, gift of holy spirit, God's divine nature, new creation, etc.)
Non-Christian can experience and give love, but only Christians can experience and give God's love because it's in the seed of the new birth. It's like this for each of the fruits of the spirit. Only Christians can experience the peace that passes all understanding or the joy that comes from rejoicing in the Lord. Because the fruit comes by way of the spirit, each one is experienced in a deeper, greater and spiritual sense for the Christian. It's all such great stuff!
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Charity
You explain things quite well Oldskool. Did you enjoy teaching the Word while in the ministry?
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Charity
God obviously was protecting His Word by way of all those who moved it along. I wonder if anything else dating so far back has been preserved to this day.
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Nathan_Jr
We have writings of the ancient Sumerians that have been dated to around 3500 BC.
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