How is trust earned if people are reading the internet?
How is trust earned if people are reading books? How is trust earned if people are reading magazines or newspapers or the flier announcing the county fair?
Expanding on your logic: How is trust earned if people are riding bicycles? How is trust earned if people are eating mangoes?
2 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
The goal of the internet was to crush opportunity?
The internet had a goal?
I find doors of opportunity open all the time while using the internet, but mainly because I seek the opportunity. It’s interactive. Different strokes, I guess.
Victor had a goal of suppressing his followers ability to find out. Literally, their ability to find out about anything at all. One way he did this was by crushing people’s opportunity to pursue education. Russell and Huxley and Orwell warned of hucksters like vp.
I don't think I'm talking about conspiracy theories . . . that's not we're talking about . . . there's no mastermind
Society as a whole has become increasingly atomized . . . . the internet plays a major role in that because we don't need to meet other people anymore.
Each person on the internet, in spite of best efforts, is a fragment of themselves . . . the internet is a collection of fragments of people . . . that is a new social order that affects everyone on and off the internet. Face to Face interactions are increasingly influenced by the reasoning on the internet. It's not something that can be escaped without a lot of efforts. The internet affects how people develop now.
Getting back to The Way and how the internet was in the minds of many we have face-to-face interactions with . . . as a teenager I was inundated with topics of rape, wife-swapping and other matters I did not understand . . . due to my unintentional involvement with TWI.
The internet cuts real word relationships . . . whether you are on the internet or not
2 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
I am familiar with the Wayferism, "spirit is thicker than blood".
I'm thinking you're touching on something in this paragraph where we both agree and disagree.
I would agree social media is something that is now used like a drug to fill the void of belonging. I think that is wrong, and similar to joining a group like TWI. And think it makes VPW and LCM look tame.
Thanks for the clarification and I think I do understand your point of view a little clearer now. And I wanted to follow up and reiterate a few things.
Conspiracies does not always imply a mastermind, a master plan or a well thought out strategy.
When I mentioned my fascination with the JFK assassination one of the things I learned was a conspiracy can be as simple as 2 or 3 people secretly plotting to bring about a certain result. Besides the Warren Commission there were other investigations. Matter of fact the final report by a select house committee to investigate assassinations said Kennedy’s assassination was “probably the result of a conspiracy.”
in my opinion probably 2 of the best books on the subject is “The Last Investigation” by Gaeton Fonzi, and “JFK and the Unspeakable” by James Douglass. Even if one is not that interested in the story - I think the books are almost like a tutorial on using critical thinking to sift through facts, evidence, eyewitnesses, surrounding events, the tendency to cover for one’s ineptness, etc.
When the Zapruder film was first broadcast on TV in the mid 70s the public shock of seeing the “head snap” which indicated the shot came from a different direction than the book depository led to another investigation. As an adult I’ve been to the 6th Floor museum a couple of times. Also being somewhat familiar with firearms and ballistics - hunting, target shooting and plinking - I’ve come to the conclusion there had to be a 2nd shooter involved. Even if one wants to limit the analysis to what is obvious - it was a conspiracy of 2 people.
My point in bringing this up again is to say I agree with you on the fact that the Internet and the information/digital age in many respects has overshadowed or eclipsed real / traditional relationships. Granted - Unless one wants to become a hermit - there’s going to be a lot of info and noise to sift through. But there should also be real world interaction involved (my mention of seeing the head snap and being familiar with the effects of bullets being fired.
I agree social media for many folks is a poor substitute for belonging in a relationship. It can be just as bad as being in a harmful and controlling cult like TWI if one does not engage cognitive skills.
I don’t think it’s as daunting a task as you seem to make it, because I am not pressured by a cult to submit to groupthink or be ostracized. And I still have enough social interaction with family , friends , neighbors, community programs with our daughter to keep in touch with real life. I don’t mean to be nosy or assume you’re restricted to only an internet perspective on life.
So - guess I agree with you - the Internet can be a bad thing to fulfill a real need - I disagree with you saying it makes wierwille and LCM look tame. Mainly because I don’t give the Internet that much power over my life like I did in TWI. In psychology cognitive dissonance is the perception of contradictory info and the toll it can take on our minds. I’m not in TWI anymore. I don’t have to listen to some pigheaded pontificator telling me what to read, think, do.
I’m not sure what to make of your statement “The internet cuts real word relationships . . . whether you are on the internet or not” so I have nothing to say to that. And I feel like we keep going round and round the same issues for no apparent reason
How is trust earned if people are reading books? How is trust earned if people are reading magazines or newspapers or the flier announcing the county fair?
Expanding on your logic: How is trust earned if people are riding bicycles? How is trust earned if people are eating mangoes?
. . .
Exactly if people needed the internet to find out The Way International is weird . . . . that says everything.
Go to ONE fellowship. If you don't feel gross . . . the internet can't help you.
I find doors of opportunity open all the time while using the internet, but mainly because I seek the opportunity. It’s interactive. Different strokes, I guess.
Victor had a goal of suppressing his followers ability to find out. Literally, their ability to find out about anything at all. One way he did this was by crushing people’s opportunity to pursue education. Russell and Huxley and Orwell warned of hucksters like vp.
Internet no had goal. Me inglish not decent and in order.
The people starting cites really just brought us into a new world of the internet. Everyone knew TWI was garbage. It just made them feel good.
Internet no had goal. Me inglish not decent and in order.
The people starting cites really just brought us into a new world of the internet. Everyone knew TWI was garbage. It just made them feel good.
I didn't know and it was on GSC that I found out that TWI was rotten. Could have I found out another way? kind of a moot point because the internet is how I found out.
Exactly if people needed the internet to find out The Way International is weird . . . . that says everything.
Go to ONE fellowship. If you don't feel gross . . . the internet can't help you.
Even though I attended fellowship with an open mind and heart, I felt gross and filthy and exhausted within minutes.
Within the first 30 seconds of the PFAL video, I knew that little charlatan was a fraud. Within 60 seconds, I received the 2nd revelation - that established it.
Its so, SO important to teach our children how to be critical thinkers.
I didn't know and it was on GSC that I found out that TWI was rotten. Could have I found out another way? kind of a moot point because the internet is how I found out.
SIT, witnessing, teaching . . . I hated everything. As a kid you watch people being witnessed to a lot, and their responses say most get it right away.
I was in because that's my family and it can't be chosen.
Edited by Bolshevik mi ingles, don't read the original
SIT, witnessing, teaching . . . I hated everything. As a kid you watch people being witnessed to a lot, and there responses say most get it right away.
I was in because that's my family and it can't be chosen.
Gotcha. I was naive enough to believe all the hoopla. Was a dyed in the wool wayfer with way colored glasses all the way. It wasn't until martindale did the phone hookups where he announced he had his affair, lied about that one too. It took a couple years and coming on staff to start to understand that TWI is corrupt and a cult. Took me about five years of reading here on GSC and waydaly using the wayback machine...John Jeudes site...Im one of those that if it wasn't for the internet I woulda likely stayed in the dark. I do feel for you though, especially considering your life has been sideswiped so hard by all of this - leaving a mess to sort out.
Even though I attended fellowship with an open mind and heart, I felt gross and filthy and exhausted within minutes.
Within the first 30 seconds of the PFLAP video, I knew that little charlatan was a fraud. Within 60 seconds, I received the 2nd revelation - that established it.
Its so, SO important to teach our children how to be critical thinkers.
Critical thinking as a motivational tool . . . hmmm
Was he short? He dressed like he was from the seventies . . . that was weird.
Gotcha. I was naive enough to believe all the hoopla. Was a dyed in the wool wayfer with way colored glasses all the way. It wasn't until martindale did the phone hookups where he announced he had his affair, lied about that one too. It took a couple years and coming on staff to start to understand that TWI is corrupt and a cult. Took me about five years of reading here on GSC and waydaly using the wayback machine...John Jeudes site...Im one of those that if it wasn't for the internet I woulda likely stayed in the dark. I do feel for you though, especially considering your life has been sideswiped so hard by all of this - leaving a mess to sort out.
The saga continues. I'm not looking for closure. That's in another life.
I have an incentive to want outsiders out. I've tried to describe facets of that fight without details.
I'm imagining that LCM lied is what struck the hardest?
I'm imagining that LCM lied is what struck the hardest?
Well, that was a kick in the nads, yes. However, it wasnt so much that he lied - it was that they all lied. Wierwille, martindale, rosalie, and a bunch of people that I personally knew and worked with that were listed on the lawsuits. It's that wierwilles works were plagairaized. The entire way ministry is built on lies and that was the tough part because I believed them at their word that they were doing the best they knew and all that jazz. I never expected perfection but I did expect them to live up to how they said they operated. Lies all across the board. Heck - when the electical loop at HQ fried from neglect in 1999 I even saw John Reynolds get up an lie about that. Made it sound like they took care of things to the utmost and the project was planned. Turns out they knew at least since 96 the direct burial cable was shedding voltage and was in the process of failing. Lies all across the board. If they didn't lie so much there would be no need for any websites to expose them.
How is trust earned if people are reading books? How is trust earned if people are reading magazines or newspapers or the flier announcing the county fair?
Expanding on your logic: How is trust earned if people are riding bicycles? How is trust earned if people are eating mangoes?
All those can be done with minimal to no human interaction. Social media is more specifically the aspect of the internet that has the potential to dehumanize our thinking as it relates to social interaction.
All those can be done with minimal to no human interaction. Social media is more specifically the aspect of the internet that has the potential to dehumanize our thinking as it relates to social interaction.
Right. Agreed. Lots of bullshonta on social media.
But Bolshe said, “reading the internet.” I’m trying to understand what he means. Does he mean social media? It’s an important distinction.
What do we critically think our way into? Just critically think our way out of things?
Not sure I understand the questions.
To me, critical thinking is about honest, free investigation, examination, evaluation, inquiry, doubt. It's the opposite of prejudice, closed mindedness, confirmation bias, blind allegiance to authority or dogma.
You meet a human being and they come with a bias from a digital source. That changes everything.
That human being either doesn't have the skills to recognize the bias or is willfully ignoring the bias.
Bias sources are as old as, well, the oldest things. Are we willing and able to recognize the bias in a source of information? Are we willing and able to recognize the bias within ourselves?
Exactly if people needed the internet to find out The Way International is weird . . . . that says everything.
Go to ONE fellowship. If you don't feel gross . . . the internet can't help you.
Yeah that happened to this one guy went to a Way fellowship was grossed out then he joined a Baptist church and after a few years became a pastor teaching a class on cults that I am watching on YouTube.
It didn’t happen to him on the internet but I found his teachings on the internet.
I dunno. You used to quote Encyclopedia Britannica sold by traveling salesman now you get hit up by Wikipedia for donations lol.
No, actually, the goal of the internet was to spread opportunity. To spread information sharing - between scientists. That's how it started: to try to link up work on free-standing computers and to allow data sharing. Britain was a big leader in this, quickly taken up (and eclipsed) by the USA. USA realised the potential and quickly moved to use it in defence situations. It was the dissemination of information was the goal of the internet.
There were many early developments over quite a long period and the usefulness of this form of communication became very evident. Developments escalated, speed and ability to transfer information quickly grew.
As the ability to move data became easier, so "social media" sites of good or dubious value began to develop and they have themselves eclipsed what most people think "the internet" is.
But seriously, it would be impossible to live the lives we now have without the internet and the serious use to which it is put. Our city infrastructures, health services, gas/elec provision, banking, your TV channels, anything you can think of - is pretty much run by online services - sometimes just within one organisation, but frequently linked with other organisations. Sometimes you're aware, but whether or not you're aware, always internet provision is working away in the background.
Heck, I do a lot of gardening work - and even so I rely on the internet. It's how I check the best way to tend a new (to me) type of plant, find a way to deal with plant disease, locate specific plants my clients want, etc - and how I file my tax return.
That social media and the rumour mill in general have found the "internet" and perhaps abused it is not the fault of "the internet" but of the owners of various websites and types of social media. Some social media is abused to bully people. Other social media is used to build others up and to form support networks. As always, we as individuals get to choose what we want to look at, listen to and pay attention to.
No, actually, the goal of the internet was to spread opportunity. To spread information sharing - between scientists. That's how it started: to try to link up work on free-standing computers and to allow data sharing. Britain was a big leader in this, quickly taken up (and eclipsed) by the USA. USA realised the potential and quickly moved to use it in defence situations. It was the dissemination of information was the goal of the internet.
There were many early developments over quite a long period and the usefulness of this form of communication became very evident. Developments escalated, speed and ability to transfer information quickly grew.
As the ability to move data became easier, so "social media" sites of good or dubious value began to develop and they have themselves eclipsed what most people think "the internet" is.
But seriously, it would be impossible to live the lives we now have without the internet and the serious use to which it is put. Our city infrastructures, health services, gas/elec provision, banking, your TV channels, anything you can think of - is pretty much run by online services - sometimes just within one organisation, but frequently linked with other organisations. Sometimes you're aware, but whether or not you're aware, always internet provision is working away in the background.
Heck, I do a lot of gardening work - and even so I rely on the internet. It's how I check the best way to tend a new (to me) type of plant, find a way to deal with plant disease, locate specific plants my clients want, etc - and how I file my tax return.
That social media and the rumour mill in general have found the "internet" and perhaps abused it is not the fault of "the internet" but of the owners of various websites and types of social media. Some social media is abused to bully people. Other social media is used to build others up and to form support networks. As always, we as individuals get to choose what we want to look at, listen to and pay attention to.
No, actually, the goal of the internet was to spread opportunity. To spread information sharing - between scientists. That's how it started: to try to link up work on free-standing computers and to allow data sharing. Britain was a big leader in this, quickly taken up (and eclipsed) by the USA. USA realised the potential and quickly moved to use it in defence situations. It was the dissemination of information was the goal of the internet.
There were many early developments over quite a long period and the usefulness of this form of communication became very evident. Developments escalated, speed and ability to transfer information quickly grew.
As the ability to move data became easier, so "social media" sites of good or dubious value began to develop and they have themselves eclipsed what most people think "the internet" is.
But seriously, it would be impossible to live the lives we now have without the internet and the serious use to which it is put. Our city infrastructures, health services, gas/elec provision, banking, your TV channels, anything you can think of - is pretty much run by online services - sometimes just within one organisation, but frequently linked with other organisations. Sometimes you're aware, but whether or not you're aware, always internet provision is working away in the background.
Heck, I do a lot of gardening work - and even so I rely on the internet. It's how I check the best way to tend a new (to me) type of plant, find a way to deal with plant disease, locate specific plants my clients want, etc - and how I file my tax return.
That social media and the rumour mill in general have found the "internet" and perhaps abused it is not the fault of "the internet" but of the owners of various websites and types of social media. Some social media is abused to bully people. Other social media is used to build others up and to form support networks. As always, we as individuals get to choose what we want to look at, listen to and pay attention to.
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Twinky
No, actually, the goal of the internet was to spread opportunity. To spread information sharing - between scientists. That's how it started: to try to link up work on free-standing computers and to
chockfull
Yes I do not believe that I ever would have discovered the truth outside these websites. There are so many layers of whitewash and limiting access to things that only by multiple people comparing stor
Twinky
How I feel, too. If anything, I feel sorrow that they care(d) so little. Whether still the same, I don't care to find out. And I feel anger at the abuse so many suffered in so many ways.
Nathan_Jr
How is trust earned if people are reading books? How is trust earned if people are reading magazines or newspapers or the flier announcing the county fair?
Expanding on your logic: How is trust earned if people are riding bicycles? How is trust earned if people are eating mangoes?
The internet had a goal?
I find doors of opportunity open all the time while using the internet, but mainly because I seek the opportunity. It’s interactive. Different strokes, I guess.
Victor had a goal of suppressing his followers ability to find out. Literally, their ability to find out about anything at all. One way he did this was by crushing people’s opportunity to pursue education. Russell and Huxley and Orwell warned of hucksters like vp.
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T-Bone
Thanks for the clarification and I think I do understand your point of view a little clearer now. And I wanted to follow up and reiterate a few things.
Conspiracies does not always imply a mastermind, a master plan or a well thought out strategy.
When I mentioned my fascination with the JFK assassination one of the things I learned was a conspiracy can be as simple as 2 or 3 people secretly plotting to bring about a certain result. Besides the Warren Commission there were other investigations. Matter of fact the final report by a select house committee to investigate assassinations said Kennedy’s assassination was “probably the result of a conspiracy.”
in my opinion probably 2 of the best books on the subject is “The Last Investigation” by Gaeton Fonzi, and “JFK and the Unspeakable” by James Douglass. Even if one is not that interested in the story - I think the books are almost like a tutorial on using critical thinking to sift through facts, evidence, eyewitnesses, surrounding events, the tendency to cover for one’s ineptness, etc.
When the Zapruder film was first broadcast on TV in the mid 70s the public shock of seeing the “head snap” which indicated the shot came from a different direction than the book depository led to another investigation. As an adult I’ve been to the 6th Floor museum a couple of times. Also being somewhat familiar with firearms and ballistics - hunting, target shooting and plinking - I’ve come to the conclusion there had to be a 2nd shooter involved. Even if one wants to limit the analysis to what is obvious - it was a conspiracy of 2 people.
My point in bringing this up again is to say I agree with you on the fact that the Internet and the information/digital age in many respects has overshadowed or eclipsed real / traditional relationships. Granted - Unless one wants to become a hermit - there’s going to be a lot of info and noise to sift through. But there should also be real world interaction involved (my mention of seeing the head snap and being familiar with the effects of bullets being fired.
I agree social media for many folks is a poor substitute for belonging in a relationship. It can be just as bad as being in a harmful and controlling cult like TWI if one does not engage cognitive skills.
I don’t think it’s as daunting a task as you seem to make it, because I am not pressured by a cult to submit to groupthink or be ostracized. And I still have enough social interaction with family , friends , neighbors, community programs with our daughter to keep in touch with real life. I don’t mean to be nosy or assume you’re restricted to only an internet perspective on life.
So - guess I agree with you - the Internet can be a bad thing to fulfill a real need - I disagree with you saying it makes wierwille and LCM look tame. Mainly because I don’t give the Internet that much power over my life like I did in TWI. In psychology cognitive dissonance is the perception of contradictory info and the toll it can take on our minds. I’m not in TWI anymore. I don’t have to listen to some pigheaded pontificator telling me what to read, think, do.
I’m not sure what to make of your statement “The internet cuts real word relationships . . . whether you are on the internet or not” so I have nothing to say to that. And I feel like we keep going round and round the same issues for no apparent reason
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Bolshevik
Exactly if people needed the internet to find out The Way International is weird . . . . that says everything.
Go to ONE fellowship. If you don't feel gross . . . the internet can't help you.
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Bolshevik
Internet no had goal. Me inglish not decent and in order.
The people starting cites really just brought us into a new world of the internet. Everyone knew TWI was garbage. It just made them feel good.
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T-Bone
I'm done arguing with your faulty assumptions
uh huh
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Bolshevik
As I've stated.
You meet a human being and they come with a bias from a digital source. That changes everything.
You are attached to this idea that VPW was so hidden and secret it wasn't already obvious to most. ONLY the internet could unveil the mask.
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T-Bone
I figured out wierwille was a phony shortly after I left - without the internet
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OldSkool
I didn't know and it was on GSC that I found out that TWI was rotten. Could have I found out another way? kind of a moot point because the internet is how I found out.
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Nathan_Jr
Even though I attended fellowship with an open mind and heart, I felt gross and filthy and exhausted within minutes.
Within the first 30 seconds of the PFAL video, I knew that little charlatan was a fraud. Within 60 seconds, I received the 2nd revelation - that established it.
Its so, SO important to teach our children how to be critical thinkers.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloved hands
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Bolshevik
SIT, witnessing, teaching . . . I hated everything. As a kid you watch people being witnessed to a lot, and their responses say most get it right away.
I was in because that's my family and it can't be chosen.
Edited by Bolshevikmi ingles, don't read the original
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OldSkool
Gotcha. I was naive enough to believe all the hoopla. Was a dyed in the wool wayfer with way colored glasses all the way. It wasn't until martindale did the phone hookups where he announced he had his affair, lied about that one too. It took a couple years and coming on staff to start to understand that TWI is corrupt and a cult. Took me about five years of reading here on GSC and waydaly using the wayback machine...John Jeudes site...Im one of those that if it wasn't for the internet I woulda likely stayed in the dark. I do feel for you though, especially considering your life has been sideswiped so hard by all of this - leaving a mess to sort out.
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Bolshevik
Critical thinking as a motivational tool . . . hmmm
Was he short? He dressed like he was from the seventies . . . that was weird.
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Bolshevik
The saga continues. I'm not looking for closure. That's in another life.
I have an incentive to want outsiders out. I've tried to describe facets of that fight without details.
I'm imagining that LCM lied is what struck the hardest?
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Nathan_Jr
Hmmm… motivational tool? Not following…,
Critical thinking as a way to find out.
Short on spiritual perception and awareness. Late 1960s. 1967 or 1968. Someone knows.
Edited by Nathan_JrScientifically precise
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Bolshevik
What do we critically think our way into? Just critically think our way out of things?
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OldSkool
Well, that was a kick in the nads, yes. However, it wasnt so much that he lied - it was that they all lied. Wierwille, martindale, rosalie, and a bunch of people that I personally knew and worked with that were listed on the lawsuits. It's that wierwilles works were plagairaized. The entire way ministry is built on lies and that was the tough part because I believed them at their word that they were doing the best they knew and all that jazz. I never expected perfection but I did expect them to live up to how they said they operated. Lies all across the board. Heck - when the electical loop at HQ fried from neglect in 1999 I even saw John Reynolds get up an lie about that. Made it sound like they took care of things to the utmost and the project was planned. Turns out they knew at least since 96 the direct burial cable was shedding voltage and was in the process of failing. Lies all across the board. If they didn't lie so much there would be no need for any websites to expose them.
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waysider
All those can be done with minimal to no human interaction. Social media is more specifically the aspect of the internet that has the potential to dehumanize our thinking as it relates to social interaction.
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Nathan_Jr
Right. Agreed. Lots of bullshonta on social media.
But Bolshe said, “reading the internet.” I’m trying to understand what he means. Does he mean social media? It’s an important distinction.
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Nathan_Jr
Not sure I understand the questions.
To me, critical thinking is about honest, free investigation, examination, evaluation, inquiry, doubt. It's the opposite of prejudice, closed mindedness, confirmation bias, blind allegiance to authority or dogma.
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Nathan_Jr
That human being either doesn't have the skills to recognize the bias or is willfully ignoring the bias.
Bias sources are as old as, well, the oldest things. Are we willing and able to recognize the bias in a source of information? Are we willing and able to recognize the bias within ourselves?
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chockfull
Yeah that happened to this one guy went to a Way fellowship was grossed out then he joined a Baptist church and after a few years became a pastor teaching a class on cults that I am watching on YouTube.
It didn’t happen to him on the internet but I found his teachings on the internet.
I dunno. You used to quote Encyclopedia Britannica sold by traveling salesman now you get hit up by Wikipedia for donations lol.
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Twinky
No, actually, the goal of the internet was to spread opportunity. To spread information sharing - between scientists. That's how it started: to try to link up work on free-standing computers and to allow data sharing. Britain was a big leader in this, quickly taken up (and eclipsed) by the USA. USA realised the potential and quickly moved to use it in defence situations. It was the dissemination of information was the goal of the internet.
There were many early developments over quite a long period and the usefulness of this form of communication became very evident. Developments escalated, speed and ability to transfer information quickly grew.
As the ability to move data became easier, so "social media" sites of good or dubious value began to develop and they have themselves eclipsed what most people think "the internet" is.
But seriously, it would be impossible to live the lives we now have without the internet and the serious use to which it is put. Our city infrastructures, health services, gas/elec provision, banking, your TV channels, anything you can think of - is pretty much run by online services - sometimes just within one organisation, but frequently linked with other organisations. Sometimes you're aware, but whether or not you're aware, always internet provision is working away in the background.
Heck, I do a lot of gardening work - and even so I rely on the internet. It's how I check the best way to tend a new (to me) type of plant, find a way to deal with plant disease, locate specific plants my clients want, etc - and how I file my tax return.
That social media and the rumour mill in general have found the "internet" and perhaps abused it is not the fault of "the internet" but of the owners of various websites and types of social media. Some social media is abused to bully people. Other social media is used to build others up and to form support networks. As always, we as individuals get to choose what we want to look at, listen to and pay attention to.
Here is some history of the internet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet
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Nathan_Jr
Clear writing born of clear thinking. Well done, Twinky.
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T-Bone
great post, Twinky !
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