But TWI makes it everybody's business with their evangelizing and proselytizing and gaslighting and abusing and stealing and destroying. I wish they could keep their business to themselves, but they can't and won't.
The pressures to sell "the class" is one way they make it EVERYBODY'S business. I married a woman who was born into a TWI/CORPS family. I never condemned, nor questioned, her beleeefs. They just never really came up, or else I just lovingly tolerated the silliness. But the pressure to bend my knee to victor became seemingly insurmountable at some point. In an effort to keep the peace and do whatever it took to save a marriage I was gaslighted to believe I ruined, I took "the class" and attended fellowship with an open mind and heart.
Before I took "the class," my life was replete with what many here would call signs, miracles, wonders and revelation. I'm embarrassed to even mention this, because I never considered any of this miraculous or special or worthy of boasting, which I'm painfully trying to avoid right now. Since a very young age, I experienced countless healings - physical, mental, spiritual - and had never been to a doctor or had a vaccine. My life was full of love and joy and contentment and professional success and gratitude. All my needs were met. I walked in the light of the Love of God.
But the proselytizers of TWI couldn't keep their shonta in their own toilet. They had to share it with me by force. They had push my face into their shonta. TWI made their business my business. And their business is destruction. So, fvck them for destroying my life!
They should have kept their business to themselves.
Thank God for GSC, open forums, and free speech.
I want make clear, in light of so many cryptic posts in this thread, I use TWI as a fiat, a symbol, an idea, a shorthand.
In the context of my post, TWI represents: any person who imitates and stands on the shoulders of victor paul wierwille; any person propagating the cultic ideology of victor paul wierwille; the error of victor paul wierwille; or the ideology of victor paul wierwille.
I do not, in this context, mean the corporate entity that is TWI. I was never involved with that. I was sucked into an orbit of destruction generated by a handful of sycophants, devotees and apologists of VPW. These people were, in fact, card-carrying members and lovers of the corporation at one time.
These people abandoned the corporation, like so many, in the late 1980s. But they remained committed to VPW, as they have been since joining CORPS in the late 1970s.
The MEDIUM presents an incomplete message. If it's distorted because a person does it intentionally, that's something else altogether. What you don't get with social media is body language and other nonverbals, like inflection for example. It's always going to be easier to read people face to face than here. That's why my avatar is actually a picture of me.
I don't have the stats in front of me . . . but this is also a primary mode for meeting people, as WW described happened with him.
People are intentionally quitting meeting face to face en masse . . . . . . in favor of the internet . . . . or no people at all . . . (which leads to discussions about robots in place of people . . . again . . . and a variety of other matters)
We agree there's a distortion. As I have described, a person can avoid the internet, but not avoid its effects.
Edited by Bolshevik a and e are both vowels and not sometimes
Ah, so you got that off the internet…so you do trust the internet for some things
I’m familiar with Haidt’s work but I don’t come away with such a dismal outlook like you do…he gets into social psychology – studying stuff like people developing mistrust toward others and becoming divisive…his stuff seems like constructive criticism to me. I don’t interpret him as a prophet of doom like you do.
Confirmation bias is problematic – maybe you’re understanding social media from your own negative experiences and it appears my positive experiences don’t matter in your book
I know extreme anxiety and fear can distort perceptions and lead to irrational decisions – makes me wonder why you are relentless in disparaging my judgments.
Don’t get your hopes up that I’m going to jump onto your bandwagon…I’m done with mindlessly absorbing info like I did in TWI
I rely on observations, cognitive skills, and experiences…maybe the only thing you and I have in common is we were involved in the same cult. To what extent our experiences were different - I don't know - but that would probably lead to some difference in opinions and judgments.
you are very persistent in your gloomy “report” and seem bound and determined to convince me that I should doubt my observations, cognitive skills, and experiences. Evidently you think you are the more enlightened one and perhaps you think it's your mission to save me from ignorance. I don't like it when people are condescending...reminds me of TWI.
If social media is so bad – why are you here talking about how bad it is?
Your time in TWI . . . was pre-internet . . . my experience was it was there pushing matters early on
We were also involved for very different reasons . . . and naturally have a very different angles to view
I would say Cult is family. I would also say social media heavily directs how families form, or don't. Some would say family is the basis of society.
I forget what we were on about, free speech or something
Right, these websites remove boundaries within a group. We don't have personal conversations as much anymore because the rumor mill runs the show. In the real world we all begin separating from one another . . . just in case the other person is what the internet says maybe is a possibility. Our character, is what the internet says it is.
I forget what we were on about, free speech or something
Right, these websites remove boundaries within a group. We don't have personal conversations as much anymore because the rumor mill runs the show. In the real world we all begin separating from one another . . . just in case the other person is what the internet says maybe is a possibility.
Perception in psychology is defined as the analysis of sensory information within the brain. Through perception we obtain a description of our surroundings and what they mean. It seems my perception of reality, TWI, the internet, etc., differs from yours.
Character is the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual. How much of our online presence reflects those qualities depends on how much we stay true to ourselves in our social media interaction. Only a handful of Grease Spotters have met me in person at an organized gathering in Texas – but that still doesn’t vet me. I could have kept up the charade for such a short duration. I could be a consistent poser. So what? I’m not running for the office or selling anything…I don’t get out much – Grease Spot Café is one of the ways I get to socialize.
2 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
Our character, is what the internet says it is.
Sorry – I have to disagree with you on this point…because I don’t believe the internet is an evil entity with a hidden agenda…this sounds like an Advanced Class session.
Sorry – I have to disagree with you on this point…because I don’t believe the internet is an evil entity with a hidden agenda…this sounds like an Advanced Class session.
The implication is not that the internet of is an entity with a hidden agenda. A collective that dices human interaction into numerous commodities might be a way to put it.
The implication is not that the internet of is an entity with a hidden agenda. A collective that dices human interaction into numerous commodities might be a way to put it.
You’re basically saying what I said – you just used different words...check this out:
1 hour ago, T-Bone said:
Sorry – I have to disagree with you on this point…because I don’t believe the internet is an evil entity with a hidden agenda…
or in other words, the internet is a collective that dices human interaction into numerous commodities
Character is the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual. How much of our online presence reflects those qualities depends on how much we stay true to ourselves in our social media interaction. Only a handful of Grease Spotters have met me in person at an organized gathering in Texas – but that still doesn’t vet me. I could have kept up the charade for such a short duration. I could be a consistent poser. So what? I’m not running for the office or selling anything…I don’t get out much – Grease Spot Café is one of the ways I get to socialize.
. . .
I think Haidt was pointing out as people start out younger and younger on the internet that personal development in intertwined with social media. Which is unfortunate. I don't think it's a leap there to see a how borg mentality can develop across millions of people. - Who in turn judge as their peers do.
You, specifically may not have ulterior motives, and yes there are bots and AI and douchebags also, but that is not the point. There are uncounted readers also, who know what they are up to, if anything at all. But it's not about any one individual. - So there's not a personal accusation.
The internet's effects on the population I think is different than with written books, which take more thought and effort.
I think Haidt was pointing out as people start out younger and younger on the internet that personal development in intertwined with social media. Which is unfortunate. I don't think it's a leap there to see a how borg mentality can develop across millions of people. - Who in turn judge as their peers do.
Yeah – I don’t disagree on that. In general for those who have devices – we all spend way too much time looking at them
42 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:
You, specifically may not have ulterior motives, and yes there are bots and AI and douchebags also, but that is not the point. There are uncounted readers also, who know what they are up to, if anything at all. But it's not about any one individual. - So there's not a personal accusation.
Bots and AI are programmed and set up by people – there’s been some interesting documentaries on that. Unless you’re talking about Skynet from Terminator movies becoming self-aware - - I am saying it all comes down to certain people making decisions with specific goals in mind…for SMALL example – if I shop online for a bass guitar or commentary on the book of Revelation – thanks to Bots and AI, when I look at a news feed I see little ads for bass guitars and commentaries on the same page.
42 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:
The internet's effects on the population I think is different than with written books, which take more thought and effort.
Yeah, I agree somewhat…I’m no online expert – but in my little experience with Grease Spot, when there’s interesting discussions / sincere posters / Socratic method that’s a lot of effort being put into a thoughtful process.
39 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:
I'm lost on what your saying then.
I'm may have clarified (or not) in my last post.
my expanded literal revision of what’s been said – it’s as follows (your expanded literal revision may differ):
the internet can be a double-edged sword – depending on the intent and agenda of all those involved…A cooperative effort by IT people can monetize online activity into various goods and services.
Yeah – I don’t disagree on that. In general for those who have devices – we all spend way too much time looking at them
Bots and AI are programmed and set up by people – there’s been some interesting documentaries on that. Unless you’re talking about Skynet from Terminator movies becoming self-aware - - I am saying it all comes down to certain people making decisions with specific goals in mind…for SMALL example – if I shop online for a bass guitar or commentary on the book of Revelation – thanks to Bots and AI, when I look at a news feed I see little ads for bass guitars and commentaries on the same page.
Yeah, I agree somewhat…I’m no online expert – but in my little experience with Grease Spot, when there’s interesting discussions / sincere posters / Socratic method that’s a lot of effort being put into a thoughtful process.
my expanded literal revision of what’s been said – it’s as follows (your expanded literal revision may differ):
the internet can be a double-edged sword – depending on the intent and agenda of all those involved…A cooperative effort by IT people can monetize online activity into various goods and services.
It may be what we are unclear on what can be controlled.
Haidt used teenage girls as a focus . . . so future mothers . . . . so in time your mom is raising you according to the social pressure of the internet
It may be what we are unclear on what can be controlled.
Could be…thinking more on other things you’ve already said – let me put another idea on the table
trust issues and lack of self-confidence often correlateto feelings of manipulation
Not trying to play shrink – just trying to find common ground
~ ~ ~ ~
You grew up in TWI…I joined when I was 21 and left when I was 33…you’ve mentioned some folks can leave with no strings attached – I assumed you may have included me in that group since I got in and out of my own accord as an adult.
In the short time that I was in TWI, it’s still taking me some 36 years to unpack some of the mental and emotional baggage since I left. A couple of the biggies are trust issues and lack of self-confidence.
I think anyone who has been in TWI for any length of time has been impacted by an authoritarian religion. If one grew up in TWI, that’s probably a double whammy of being subjected to authoritarian parenting following an authoritarian religion…I can’t even begin to imagine what that’s like…My way corps training pales in comparison. It was only for 2 years - being cut off from outside information, newspapers, books, movies, and TV [no internet when I was there]. Being cloistered in the way corps training program separates one from nuclear family [if you’re single or couple no kids…Mom & Dad may sponsor you] and/or extended family. In effect, the Way International’s leadership becomes one’s adoptive parents. Real familial relationships become overshadowed by the adoption into a “spiritual family”.
~ ~ ~ ~
I think culturally the strong bonds of being connected to others by kinship…by marriage…by blood are not what they used to be…for a variety of reasons and due to escalating forces in a fast-paced “connected” world - divorces…broken families…dysfunctionality…estrangements and rifts seem more common - perhaps because the support system that was traditionally found in families may now be found elsewhere such as social media or in organizations that seem to fulfill the need to belong. Maybe this means we've evolved way past the Medieval proverb ‘blood is thicker than water’ ( which meant that familial bonds will always be stronger than bonds of friendship or love).
~ ~ ~ ~
One of wierwille’s most divisive tools was his demanding followers choose the priority of “The Word” over earthly family. On many occasions I’ve heard him passionately preach on Matthew 12: 46-50
While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”
Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
I like so many others bought into his polarizing idea – when it comes to “The Word” family and friends are not as important…wierwille often referred to us as “his kids”. You might find the following links interesting – articles written by mental health professionals:
Trust is a powerful thing…and yet also a very fragile thing.
Trust is a subjective way of measuring how much I’m able to rely on and believe in the honesty and integrity of others. I bought into wierwille’s con job in ’74, taking PFAL. I “learned” NOT to trust any other Christian labeled group, NOT to trust commentaries, NOT to believe Bible scholars, and NOT to rely on any other interpretation of the Bible except what wierwille said about a passage or topic. These a priori assumptions I adopted from PFAL were a powerful tool of control. It is hidden though – camouflaged – or relabeled as trusting God…relying on what “The Word” says…believing “The Word” .
The longer I stayed in TWI and especially going through way corps training, my self-confidence was whittled away some more. I learned to NOT make any big decisions until I first checked with my leadership.
Trust is a very fragile thing indeed. Like a house of cards my belief system fell apart in the wake of passing of the patriarch paper…It wasn’t so much what was in the POP paper but observing the meltdown of leadership in the aftermath. My observations got me to dust off a bunch of old red flags and over time my trust in wierwille, my faith in everything he said about the Bible melted away…I felt helpless…I had all my eggs in one basket – and didn’t know what I should do . Who should I talk to? Who should I consult for what I should be doing next?
~ ~ ~ ~
I get the idea of the tattoo “Trust no one” - a reminder that you shouldn’t rely on others. A good idea – but unless you live on a deserted island all by yourself you will have to have some self-confidence in your ability to make good judgements “Is this the best option / price / service / product / fit for me?” That’s going to take some thinking, comparing, self-awareness of preferences, goals, etc. Should I trust that person / service / company / product? Is that person a true friend of mine? Trust is earned. What evidence is there to show they or it is trustworthy?
~ ~ ~ ~
I recently read a news article – it was posted on Grease Spot too – about a person running for political office. The person was an election denier who claimed the 2020 election was rigged – stolen, and there was massive voter fraud. Anyone who wants to argue about that – take it to reddit – why I’m mentioning it here is because this person running for office was in TWI for a while – don’t know if he still is. Why I’m bringing it up here is because the cult of personality mindset is adaptable and can take many forms. In my opinion, conspiracy theory websites can also sabotage peoples’ cognitive skills. If current or ex-TWI folks don’t unravel the manipulative cult-tactics, they could fall for other con jobs.
No offense – but I feel like you’re condescending. Like I’m a child and not aware of the adult world of manipulative tactics, propaganda or that I can’t trust my own cognitive skills. Seems like you’re trying to take the place of the absent cult-leader. If you’re not – fine. Please quit trying to belittle the internet, Waydale, Grease Spot Café and my cognitive skills. I’m an adult…I assume you’re an adult. Please speak to me as one adult to another – in normal language – don’t be cryptic and insinuating.
This has been silly with your enigmatic prose and allusions – you come off like a TWI-know-it-all who has the inside scoop on what’s really going on talking to a new grad of PFAL. You can also stuff all the fearmongering over scams, the internet, deep state talk, conspiracies, surveillance, etc. I was a security technician for some 40 years…started out working for several security companies that provided electronic and armed personnel services in commercial, industrial, and residential settings. Along the way I have also managed to provide technical support for military defense contractors, military armories, corporations, police agencies, high end security consultants. I’ve been vetted by Feds, polygraphed several times, drug-tested, had psyche tests, and one job interview that lasted 7 hours (they did buy me lunch ).
I’ve been trained in physical security by former Secret Service, trained in surveillance, social engineering tactics and countersurveillance by former Feds – an ever-evolving discipline to keep up with the bad guys – but I don’t keep up with it anymore since I’m retired.
I have conducted security sweeps for CEOs, business facilities, and politicians. I’ve been trained in certain aspects of network protection by credentialed security experts. And up until 2019 I have owned and operated my own security consulting / technical support company.
Now my favorite hi-tech security measure is using the “Silence Unknown Callers” feature on my phone. I love it! Robots and scammers don’t even bother to leave a voice mail anymore.
Thanks for listening to this braggart – I don’t usually boast this much – but it gets tiresome listening to someone hem and haw over all this stuff…you’re preaching to the choir! I realize and respect what you have said – I know you’re smart and you sound like you know what you’re talking about.
Don’t you worry about me, okay? I’m a freakin’ feral animal -I escaped from cultic domestication and now living free…untamed…I get my news from a variety of websites / periodicals/ books / fact-check sources and broadcast channels. I vote over issues and pay attention to track records if any – I never vote straight party. I don’t believe everything I read on the internet.
I trust family, friends, neighbors, old bosses & co-workers, and certain Grease Spotters who have earned my trust – and bear in mind because vigilance, safety and security are in my blood there’s always a vetting process running in the back of my mind no matter who I interact with.
~ ~ ~ ~
Studying machinations, political science and debunking conspiracies and rabbit holes is a hobby of mine.
As an aside from my own years of observation and study I believe there is evidence of conspiracy in the JFK assassination but not necessarily in all the complex intrigue that has been disseminated over the years – just mentioning this as evidence I love to exercise critical thinking and that shooting holes in untenable conspiracy theories is not that difficult a task.
You’re free to think what you want about the internet, Waydale, TWI, Grease Spot Café.
You don’t have to trust me or believe anything I say. I really don’t care what you think of me. Please stop insulting me with your demeaning rhetoric.
I say this in love- stop the intrigue stuff or I swear to all that’s wholly cerebral and virtual – I will respond with more verbosity the likes of which will put a thesaurus to shame / disgrace / embarrassment / humiliation – and I will enjoy doing it. If you fall asleep reading it – that’s your problem. zzzzZZZZ ZZZzzzz...see I brought this on myself
The implication is not that the internet of is an entity with a hidden agenda. A collective that dices human interaction into numerous commodities might be a way to put it.
Ok I’m gonna say that while I really don’t understand this it totally sounds like it could be written by David Byrne and performed by the Talking Heads.
The implication is not…….
that the internet is an entity………
with a hidden agenda…
(synth guitar break)
A collective ……
that dices human interaction……
Into numerous commodities……
(Byrne ostrich dance)
It also does have the cadence for snap poetry. Good job!
No offense – but I feel like you’re condescending. Like I’m a child and not aware of the adult world of manipulative tactics, propaganda or that I can’t trust my own cognitive skills. Seems like you’re trying to take the place of the absent cult-leader. If you’re not – fine. Please quit trying to belittle the internet, Waydale, Grease Spot Café and my cognitive skills. I’m an adult…I assume you’re an adult. Please speak to me as one adult to another – in normal language – don’t be cryptic and insinuating.
This has been silly with your enigmatic prose and allusions – you come off like a TWI-know-it-all who has the inside scoop on what’s really going on talking to a new grad of PFAL. You can also stuff all the fearmongering over scams, the internet, deep state talk, conspiracies, surveillance, etc. I was a security technician for some 40 years…started out working for several security companies that provided electronic and armed personnel services in commercial, industrial, and residential settings. Along the way I have also managed to provide technical support for military defense contractors, military armories, corporations, police agencies, high end security consultants. I’ve been vetted by Feds, polygraphed several times, drug-tested, had psyche tests, and one job interview that lasted 7 hours (they did buy me lunch ).
I’ve been trained in physical security by former Secret Service, trained in surveillance, social engineering tactics and countersurveillance by former Feds – an ever-evolving discipline to keep up with the bad guys – but I don’t keep up with it anymore since I’m retired.
I have conducted security sweeps for CEOs, business facilities, and politicians. I’ve been trained in certain aspects of network protection by credentialed security experts. And up until 2019 I have owned and operated my own security consulting / technical support company.
Now my favorite hi-tech security measure is using the “Silence Unknown Callers” feature on my phone. I love it! Robots and scammers don’t even bother to leave a voice mail anymore.
Thanks for listening to this braggart – I don’t usually boast this much – but it gets tiresome listening to someone hem and haw over all this stuff…you’re preaching to the choir! I realize and respect what you have said – I know you’re smart and you sound like you know what you’re talking about.
Don’t you worry about me, okay? I’m a freakin’ feral animal -I escaped from cultic domestication and now living free…untamed…I get my news from a variety of websites / periodicals/ books / fact-check sources and broadcast channels. I vote over issues and pay attention to track records if any – I never vote straight party. I don’t believe everything I read on the internet.
I trust family, friends, neighbors, old bosses & co-workers, and certain Grease Spotters who have earned my trust – and bear in mind because vigilance, safety and security are in my blood there’s always a vetting process running in the back of my mind no matter who I interact with.
~ ~ ~ ~
Please take the offensiveness as frustration.
I don't think I'm talking about conspiracy theories . . . that's not we're talking about . . . there's no mastermind
Society as a whole has become increasingly atomized . . . . the internet plays a major role in that because we don't need to meet other people anymore.
Each person on the internet, in spite of best efforts, is a fragment of themselves . . . the internet is a collection of fragments of people . . . that is a new social order that affects everyone on and off the internet. Face to Face interactions are increasingly influenced by the reasoning on the internet. It's not something that can be escaped without a lot of efforts. The internet affects how people develop now.
Getting back to The Way and how the internet was in the minds of many we have face-to-face interactions with . . . as a teenager I was inundated with topics of rape, wife-swapping and other matters I did not understand . . . due to my unintentional involvement with TWI.
The internet cuts real word relationships . . . whether you are on the internet or not
I think culturally the strong bonds of being connected to others by kinship…by marriage…by blood are not what they used to be…for a variety of reasons and due to escalating forces in a fast-paced “connected” world - divorces…broken families…dysfunctionality…estrangements and rifts seem more common - perhaps because the support system that was traditionally found in families may now be found elsewhere such as social media or in organizations that seem to fulfill the need to belong. Maybe this means we've evolved way past the Medieval proverb ‘blood is thicker than water’ ( which meant that familial bonds will always be stronger than bonds of friendship or love).
~ ~ ~ ~
I am familiar with the Wayferism, "spirit is thicker than blood".
I'm thinking you're touching on something in this paragraph where we both agree and disagree.
I would agree social media is something that is now used like a drug to fill the void of belonging. I think that is wrong, and similar to joining a group like TWI. And think it makes VPW and LCM look tame.
I get the idea of the tattoo “Trust no one” - a reminder that you shouldn’t rely on others. A good idea – but unless you live on a deserted island all by yourself you will have to have some self-confidence in your ability to make good judgements “Is this the best option / price / service / product / fit for me?” That’s going to take some thinking, comparing, self-awareness of preferences, goals, etc. Should I trust that person / service / company / product? Is that person a true friend of mine? Trust is earned. What evidence is there to show they or it is trustworthy?
~ ~ ~ ~
How is trust earned if people are reading the internet? The goal of the internet was to crush opportunity?
Ok so, the internet let the world know TWI engages in wife-swapping, social distance from Wayfers. Wear a mask.
I don't think I'm talking about conspiracy theories . . . that's not we're talking about . . . there's no mastermind
Society as a whole has become increasingly atomized . . . . the internet plays a major role in that because we don't need to meet other people anymore.
Each person on the internet, in spite of best efforts, is a fragment of themselves . . . the internet is a collection of fragments of people . . . that is a new social order that affects everyone on and off the internet. Face to Face interactions are increasingly influenced by the reasoning on the internet. It's not something that can be escaped without a lot of efforts. The internet affects how people develop now.
Getting back to The Way and how the internet was in the minds of many we have face-to-face interactions with . . . as a teenager I was inundated with topics of rape, wife-swapping and other matters I did not understand . . . due to my unintentional involvement with TWI.
The internet cuts real word relationships . . . whether you are on the internet or not
Yeah for sure we’ve got Plato’s cave as well as the “square of depression” which I’ve heard our mobile devices described as going on.
Your stay at the asylum was on a different wing.
it takes us a long time to relate but eventually I think I get a better picture.
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Twinky
No, actually, the goal of the internet was to spread opportunity. To spread information sharing - between scientists. That's how it started: to try to link up work on free-standing computers and to
chockfull
Yes I do not believe that I ever would have discovered the truth outside these websites. There are so many layers of whitewash and limiting access to things that only by multiple people comparing stor
Twinky
How I feel, too. If anything, I feel sorrow that they care(d) so little. Whether still the same, I don't care to find out. And I feel anger at the abuse so many suffered in so many ways.
Nathan_Jr
Will you?
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Nathan_Jr
I want make clear, in light of so many cryptic posts in this thread, I use TWI as a fiat, a symbol, an idea, a shorthand.
In the context of my post, TWI represents: any person who imitates and stands on the shoulders of victor paul wierwille; any person propagating the cultic ideology of victor paul wierwille; the error of victor paul wierwille; or the ideology of victor paul wierwille.
I do not, in this context, mean the corporate entity that is TWI. I was never involved with that. I was sucked into an orbit of destruction generated by a handful of sycophants, devotees and apologists of VPW. These people were, in fact, card-carrying members and lovers of the corporation at one time.
These people abandoned the corporation, like so many, in the late 1980s. But they remained committed to VPW, as they have been since joining CORPS in the late 1970s.
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Bolshevik
I don't have the stats in front of me . . . but this is also a primary mode for meeting people, as WW described happened with him.
People are intentionally quitting meeting face to face en masse . . . . . . in favor of the internet . . . . or no people at all . . . (which leads to discussions about robots in place of people . . . again . . . and a variety of other matters)
We agree there's a distortion. As I have described, a person can avoid the internet, but not avoid its effects.
Edited by Bolshevika and e are both vowels and not sometimes
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Bolshevik
Your time in TWI . . . was pre-internet . . . my experience was it was there pushing matters early on
We were also involved for very different reasons . . . and naturally have a very different angles to view
I would say Cult is family. I would also say social media heavily directs how families form, or don't. Some would say family is the basis of society.
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Bolshevik
I forget what we were on about, free speech or something
Right, these websites remove boundaries within a group. We don't have personal conversations as much anymore because the rumor mill runs the show. In the real world we all begin separating from one another . . . just in case the other person is what the internet says maybe is a possibility. Our character, is what the internet says it is.
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waysider
Well, my name it is a number
It's on a piece of plastic film
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Bolshevik
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T-Bone
Understood.
I don’t know if you’ve read either of these books – but I think you might find some of what they talk about relatable:
Beyond Belief: My Secret Life Inside Scientology and My Harrowing Escape: Hill, Jenna Miscavige, Pulitzer, Lisa: 9780062248480: Amazon.com: Books
Educated: A Memoir: Westover, Tara: 9780399590504: Amazon.com: Books
Perception in psychology is defined as the analysis of sensory information within the brain. Through perception we obtain a description of our surroundings and what they mean. It seems my perception of reality, TWI, the internet, etc., differs from yours.
Character is the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual. How much of our online presence reflects those qualities depends on how much we stay true to ourselves in our social media interaction. Only a handful of Grease Spotters have met me in person at an organized gathering in Texas – but that still doesn’t vet me. I could have kept up the charade for such a short duration. I could be a consistent poser. So what? I’m not running for the office or selling anything…I don’t get out much – Grease Spot Café is one of the ways I get to socialize.
Sorry – I have to disagree with you on this point…because I don’t believe the internet is an evil entity with a hidden agenda…this sounds like an Advanced Class session.
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Bolshevik
The implication is not that the internet of is an entity with a hidden agenda. A collective that dices human interaction into numerous commodities might be a way to put it.
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T-Bone
You’re basically saying what I said – you just used different words...check this out:
or in other words, the internet is a collective that dices human interaction into numerous commodities
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Bolshevik
I think Haidt was pointing out as people start out younger and younger on the internet that personal development in intertwined with social media. Which is unfortunate. I don't think it's a leap there to see a how borg mentality can develop across millions of people. - Who in turn judge as their peers do.
You, specifically may not have ulterior motives, and yes there are bots and AI and douchebags also, but that is not the point. There are uncounted readers also, who know what they are up to, if anything at all. But it's not about any one individual. - So there's not a personal accusation.
The internet's effects on the population I think is different than with written books, which take more thought and effort.
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Bolshevik
I'm lost on what your saying then.
I'm may have clarified (or not) in my last post.
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T-Bone
Yeah – I don’t disagree on that. In general for those who have devices – we all spend way too much time looking at them
Bots and AI are programmed and set up by people – there’s been some interesting documentaries on that. Unless you’re talking about Skynet from Terminator movies becoming self-aware - - I am saying it all comes down to certain people making decisions with specific goals in mind…for SMALL example – if I shop online for a bass guitar or commentary on the book of Revelation – thanks to Bots and AI, when I look at a news feed I see little ads for bass guitars and commentaries on the same page.
Yeah, I agree somewhat…I’m no online expert – but in my little experience with Grease Spot, when there’s interesting discussions / sincere posters / Socratic method that’s a lot of effort being put into a thoughtful process.
my expanded literal revision of what’s been said – it’s as follows (your expanded literal revision may differ):
the internet can be a double-edged sword – depending on the intent and agenda of all those involved… A cooperative effort by IT people can monetize online activity into various goods and services.
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Twinky
Big Brother is watching you
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Bolshevik
It may be what we are unclear on what can be controlled.
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Bolshevik
Haidt used teenage girls as a focus . . . so future mothers . . . . so in time your mom is raising you according to the social pressure of the internet
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T-Bone
Could be…thinking more on other things you’ve already said – let me put another idea on the table
trust issues and lack of self-confidence often correlate to feelings of manipulation
Not trying to play shrink – just trying to find common ground
~ ~ ~ ~
You grew up in TWI…I joined when I was 21 and left when I was 33…you’ve mentioned some folks can leave with no strings attached – I assumed you may have included me in that group since I got in and out of my own accord as an adult.
In the short time that I was in TWI, it’s still taking me some 36 years to unpack some of the mental and emotional baggage since I left. A couple of the biggies are trust issues and lack of self-confidence.
I think anyone who has been in TWI for any length of time has been impacted by an authoritarian religion. If one grew up in TWI, that’s probably a double whammy of being subjected to authoritarian parenting following an authoritarian religion…I can’t even begin to imagine what that’s like…My way corps training pales in comparison. It was only for 2 years - being cut off from outside information, newspapers, books, movies, and TV [no internet when I was there]. Being cloistered in the way corps training program separates one from nuclear family [if you’re single or couple no kids…Mom & Dad may sponsor you ] and/or extended family. In effect, the Way International’s leadership becomes one’s adoptive parents. Real familial relationships become overshadowed by the adoption into a “spiritual family”.
~ ~ ~ ~
I think culturally the strong bonds of being connected to others by kinship…by marriage…by blood are not what they used to be…for a variety of reasons and due to escalating forces in a fast-paced “connected” world - divorces…broken families…dysfunctionality…estrangements and rifts seem more common - perhaps because the support system that was traditionally found in families may now be found elsewhere such as social media or in organizations that seem to fulfill the need to belong. Maybe this means we've evolved way past the Medieval proverb ‘blood is thicker than water’ ( which meant that familial bonds will always be stronger than bonds of friendship or love).
~ ~ ~ ~
One of wierwille’s most divisive tools was his demanding followers choose the priority of “The Word” over earthly family. On many occasions I’ve heard him passionately preach on Matthew 12: 46-50
While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”
Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
I like so many others bought into his polarizing idea – when it comes to “The Word” family and friends are not as important…wierwille often referred to us as “his kids”. You might find the following links interesting – articles written by mental health professionals:
Why Authoritarians Love Religion | Psychology Today
Authoritarian Parenting: Examples, Definition, Effects (verywellmind.com)
~ ~ ~ ~
Trust is a powerful thing…and yet also a very fragile thing.
Trust is a subjective way of measuring how much I’m able to rely on and believe in the honesty and integrity of others. I bought into wierwille’s con job in ’74, taking PFAL. I “learned” NOT to trust any other Christian labeled group, NOT to trust commentaries, NOT to believe Bible scholars, and NOT to rely on any other interpretation of the Bible except what wierwille said about a passage or topic. These a priori assumptions I adopted from PFAL were a powerful tool of control. It is hidden though – camouflaged – or relabeled as trusting God…relying on what “The Word” says…believing “The Word” .
The longer I stayed in TWI and especially going through way corps training, my self-confidence was whittled away some more. I learned to NOT make any big decisions until I first checked with my leadership.
Trust is a very fragile thing indeed. Like a house of cards my belief system fell apart in the wake of passing of the patriarch paper…It wasn’t so much what was in the POP paper but observing the meltdown of leadership in the aftermath. My observations got me to dust off a bunch of old red flags and over time my trust in wierwille, my faith in everything he said about the Bible melted away…I felt helpless…I had all my eggs in one basket – and didn’t know what I should do . Who should I talk to? Who should I consult for what I should be doing next?
~ ~ ~ ~
I get the idea of the tattoo “Trust no one” - a reminder that you shouldn’t rely on others. A good idea – but unless you live on a deserted island all by yourself you will have to have some self-confidence in your ability to make good judgements “Is this the best option / price / service / product / fit for me?” That’s going to take some thinking, comparing, self-awareness of preferences, goals, etc. Should I trust that person / service / company / product? Is that person a true friend of mine? Trust is earned. What evidence is there to show they or it is trustworthy?
~ ~ ~ ~
I recently read a news article – it was posted on Grease Spot too – about a person running for political office. The person was an election denier who claimed the 2020 election was rigged – stolen, and there was massive voter fraud. Anyone who wants to argue about that – take it to reddit – why I’m mentioning it here is because this person running for office was in TWI for a while – don’t know if he still is. Why I’m bringing it up here is because the cult of personality mindset is adaptable and can take many forms. In my opinion, conspiracy theory websites can also sabotage peoples’ cognitive skills. If current or ex-TWI folks don’t unravel the manipulative cult-tactics, they could fall for other con jobs.
Steven Hassan the author of Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves and Combating Cult Mind Control: The #1 Best-selling Guide to Protection, Rescue, and Recovery from Destructive Cults has written another fascinating book about a cult of personality – but since politics is a no-no on Grease Spot Café I’ll leave it up to you to click on this hyperlink, that has been encrypted to protect the indolent > The Cult of Orange-Hole: A Leading Cult Expert Explains How the Orange-Hole Uses Mind Control
~ ~ ~ ~
No offense – but I feel like you’re condescending. Like I’m a child and not aware of the adult world of manipulative tactics, propaganda or that I can’t trust my own cognitive skills. Seems like you’re trying to take the place of the absent cult-leader. If you’re not – fine. Please quit trying to belittle the internet, Waydale, Grease Spot Café and my cognitive skills. I’m an adult…I assume you’re an adult. Please speak to me as one adult to another – in normal language – don’t be cryptic and insinuating.
This has been silly with your enigmatic prose and allusions – you come off like a TWI-know-it-all who has the inside scoop on what’s really going on talking to a new grad of PFAL. You can also stuff all the fearmongering over scams, the internet, deep state talk, conspiracies, surveillance, etc. I was a security technician for some 40 years…started out working for several security companies that provided electronic and armed personnel services in commercial, industrial, and residential settings. Along the way I have also managed to provide technical support for military defense contractors, military armories, corporations, police agencies, high end security consultants. I’ve been vetted by Feds, polygraphed several times, drug-tested, had psyche tests, and one job interview that lasted 7 hours (they did buy me lunch
).
I’ve been trained in physical security by former Secret Service, trained in surveillance, social engineering tactics and countersurveillance by former Feds – an ever-evolving discipline to keep up with the bad guys – but I don’t keep up with it anymore since I’m retired.
I have conducted security sweeps for CEOs, business facilities, and politicians. I’ve been trained in certain aspects of network protection by credentialed security experts. And up until 2019 I have owned and operated my own security consulting / technical support company.
Now my favorite hi-tech security measure is using the “Silence Unknown Callers” feature on my phone. I love it! Robots and scammers don’t even bother to leave a voice mail anymore.
Thanks for listening to this braggart – I don’t usually boast this much – but it gets tiresome listening to someone hem and haw over all this stuff…you’re preaching to the choir! I realize and respect what you have said – I know you’re smart and you sound like you know what you’re talking about.
Don’t you worry about me, okay? I’m a freakin’ feral animal - I escaped from cultic domestication and now living free…untamed…I get my news from a variety of websites / periodicals/ books / fact-check sources and broadcast channels. I vote over issues and pay attention to track records if any – I never vote straight party. I don’t believe everything I read on the internet.
I trust family, friends, neighbors, old bosses & co-workers, and certain Grease Spotters who have earned my trust – and bear in mind because vigilance, safety and security are in my blood there’s always a vetting process running in the back of my mind no matter who I interact with.
~ ~ ~ ~
Studying machinations, political science and debunking conspiracies and rabbit holes is a hobby of mine.
As an aside from my own years of observation and study I believe there is evidence of conspiracy in the JFK assassination but not necessarily in all the complex intrigue that has been disseminated over the years – just mentioning this as evidence I love to exercise critical thinking and that shooting holes in untenable conspiracy theories is not that difficult a task.
You’re free to think what you want about the internet, Waydale, TWI, Grease Spot Café.
You don’t have to trust me or believe anything I say. I really don’t care what you think of me. Please stop insulting me with your demeaning rhetoric.
I say this in love - stop the intrigue stuff or I swear to all that’s wholly cerebral and virtual – I will respond with more verbosity the likes of which will put a thesaurus to shame / disgrace / embarrassment / humiliation – and I will enjoy doing it. If you fall asleep reading it – that’s your problem. zzzzZZZZ
ZZZzzzz...see I brought this on myself 
love and peace
T-Bone
Edited by T-Bonerevision
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chockfull
Ok I’m gonna say that while I really don’t understand this it totally sounds like it could be written by David Byrne and performed by the Talking Heads.
The implication is not…….
that the internet is an entity………
with a hidden agenda…
(synth guitar break)
A collective ……
that dices human interaction……
Into numerous commodities……
(Byrne ostrich dance)
It also does have the cadence for snap poetry. Good job!
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Rocky
We agree there's a difference. I don't agree with the characterization as a distortion.
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Bolshevik
Please take the offensiveness as frustration.
I don't think I'm talking about conspiracy theories . . . that's not we're talking about . . . there's no mastermind
Society as a whole has become increasingly atomized . . . . the internet plays a major role in that because we don't need to meet other people anymore.
Each person on the internet, in spite of best efforts, is a fragment of themselves . . . the internet is a collection of fragments of people . . . that is a new social order that affects everyone on and off the internet. Face to Face interactions are increasingly influenced by the reasoning on the internet. It's not something that can be escaped without a lot of efforts. The internet affects how people develop now.
Getting back to The Way and how the internet was in the minds of many we have face-to-face interactions with . . . as a teenager I was inundated with topics of rape, wife-swapping and other matters I did not understand . . . due to my unintentional involvement with TWI.
The internet cuts real word relationships . . . whether you are on the internet or not
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Bolshevik
I am familiar with the Wayferism, "spirit is thicker than blood".
I'm thinking you're touching on something in this paragraph where we both agree and disagree.
I would agree social media is something that is now used like a drug to fill the void of belonging. I think that is wrong, and similar to joining a group like TWI. And think it makes VPW and LCM look tame.
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Bolshevik
How is trust earned if people are reading the internet? The goal of the internet was to crush opportunity?
Ok so, the internet let the world know TWI engages in wife-swapping, social distance from Wayfers. Wear a mask.
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Bolshevik
T-Bone,
I've noticed polyamory in the locals. And those walking petri-dishes-abortion-clinics can be sneaky about getting others involved.
Quick google search confirms my confirmation bias that the internet is involved.
See how the internet once ostracized others for something they have nothing to with . . . to now facilitating the growth of that practice.
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chockfull
Yeah for sure we’ve got Plato’s cave as well as the “square of depression” which I’ve heard our mobile devices described as going on.
Your stay at the asylum was on a different wing.
it takes us a long time to relate but eventually I think I get a better picture.
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