I think you've the right of it. He wasn't sorry of the sins he'd committed- he'd convinced themselves they weren't sins or they didn't count.
What he regretted was he lacked his storied "super-believer" ability to instantly heal up when he believed. He bought into his own press and thought he could do it.
I think you've the right of it. He wasn't sorry of the sins he'd committed- he'd convinced themselves they weren't sins or they didn't count.
What he regretted was he lacked his storied "super-believer" ability to instantly heal up when he believed. He bought into his own press and thought he could do it.
The first questions I would ask about this story: is it true? Did it really happen? How do we know?
When this story first circulated, few knew of Saint Vic's shenanigans.
If you divorce yourself from Saint Vic's history, the story makes him sound like a tragic figure, like King Lear: Deliverance, deliverance, my kingdom for deliverance.
Or even Jesus Christ: My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
I'm not saying it couldn't have happened. Just, with stories like the eyes and fish hooks and Saint Vic risking his eye by filming the class over a weekend because the days are evil, I wonder...
When I first heard it was a few years ago. One poster said they were friends with someone who had lived on-grounds at the time and was one of the last few people to see vpw alive. That person told about how vpw was stressing himself in his final hours, trying to figure that one out.
If I was depicting a fraud Christian leader who was at Death's Door (whether myself or someone else), I'd expect the person to approach death with a lot more peace in themself, and prayers for those outliving them. "My conscience is bothering me" for someone who normally went around sinning is an odd choice. "My conscience is clear and I'm ready to face my God now or next in my perception" is what I'd expect to see. It's also how Pope John Paul II seemed to face death. From eyewitness accounts, it looked like he was praying for the Catholics as a whole right when he died. (My interpretation of the description; your mileage may vary.)
Perhaps, from the perspective of a more innocent person, vpw's comments may sound a lot more innocent. Later comments certainly did- blaming everyone around him for "helping kill" him with insufficient believing, "he died of a broken heart", bs like that. He certainly fed a line of bull cookies like that to geer- who wrote it down and confronted the bot not long after vpw died. But, at the same time, it's also possible to see the other comments as coming from someone who had numbed his own conscience, who only suspect he'd made some kind of mistake and displeased God because he wasn't getting miraculous healing, not because he knew what behavior would displease God and avoided all of it as best he knew how.
The following passages in a few parallel versions reflect the same idea of wierwille being driven by his own lusts, influenced by satanic doctrines, lacking sympathy and empathy, and exploiting others:
New International Version Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.
~ ~ ~ ~
28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, a which he bought with his own blood. b29I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
New International Version The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
New Living Translation Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.
Amplified Bible But the [Holy] Spirit explicitly and unmistakably declares that in later times some will turn away from the faith, paying attention instead to deceitful and seductive spirits and doctrines of demons,
Doctrines of devils is NOT demonology – the study of the devil and demonic spirits – but rather it’s false teachings that originate from devils.
~ ~ ~ ~
New International Version Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
New Living Translation These people are hypocrites and liars, and their consciences are dead.
Amplified Bible [misled] by the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared as with a branding iron [leaving them incapable of ethical functioning]
~ ~ ~ ~
New International Version Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.II
Amplified Bible But we have renounced the disgraceful things hidden because of shame; not walking in trickery or adulterating the word of God, but by stating the truth [openly and plainly], we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.
1But [in those days] false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will subtly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways, and because of them the way of truth will be maligned. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with false arguments and twisted doctrine.
7Brothers and sisters, together follow my example and observe those who live by the pattern we gave you. 18For there are many, of whom I have often told you, and now tell you even with tears, who live as enemies of the cross of Christ [rejecting and opposing His way of salvation], 19whose fate is destruction, whose god is their belly [their worldly appetite, their sensuality, their vanity], and whose glory is in their shame--who focus their mind on earthly and temporal things.
FYI: Thought I’d use a certain Grease Spotter’s “bottoms up” approach…a dubious little delight from the NT canon thread
Its intersting that you posted a series of very clear scriptures warning about these matters and it took absolutely NO biblical research, just open the Bible -- and read it! Thanks for the verses. I enjoyed reading them and they are most appropriate to the topic.
Lately my approach has been a top down, slightly to the left, then hook straight around the curve, take the first right on the left and BAM! your at Aunt Sheniqua's house.
Guilt (not to be confused with shame) like other emotions from our unconscious mind, is sent when we are going against our values. When you violate any of your core values, your mind sends you guilt to keep you on the right track. Examples of these values are: “I’m not a liar, I can’t cheat, I can’t abuse someone”. People have different values hence different reasons for feeling guilty. If you are a religious person and one of your core values is to never lie, you will feel guilty whenever you lie.
Thats interesting to consider in light of sneaking boundaries incrementally from where God would have us place said boundaries. I think it makes sense to say that you are your values. Everyone has values, even if the values a person espouses is to have no values. A lot of conflict in life arises from values and choosing the source of these values: God/Christ or Satan/various worldly disciplines. (Disclaimer: I realize that is a rather fundamentalist sounding contrast when it comes to values - there are many secular disciplines that have nothing to do with God or Satan...so theres that)
A persons conscience is determined by their values. I think that makes a lot of sense.
In the case of satanic values it's do whatever you want and that's the end of it. In such a case I would expect no conscience condemning anything cause everything is alright. Wierwille had no conscience that I am aware of....
4 hours ago, WordWolf said:
Later comments certainly did- blaming everyone around him for "helping kill" him with insufficient believing, "he died of a broken heart", bs like that. He certainly fed a line of bull cookies like that to geer- who wrote it down and confronted the bot not long after vpw died. But, at the same time, it's also possible to see the other comments as coming from someone who had numbed his own conscience, who only suspect he'd made some kind of mistake and displeased God because he wasn't getting miraculous healing, not because he knew what behavior would displease God and avoided all of it as best he knew how.
That's an interesting dichotomy. Lets check it from the two possibilites you mentioned.
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Later comments certainly did- blaming everyone around him for "helping kill" him with insufficient believing, "he died of a broken heart", bs like that. He certainly fed a line of bull cookies like that to geer- who wrote it down and confronted the bot not long after vpw died.
Ive been thinking about this a lot in this context since reading it early this morning. Im thinking that all of this poor ole me crap could be a combination of a couple things...first off, alcoholics love pity. There is a pithy little saying in Alcoholics Anonamous (Im not in AA but talk with my uncle frequently who has 40 years in AA) that goes like this: "Poor me...poor me... pour me another drink! I believe vic was a functioning alcoholic. That a person hasn't lost the ability to function doesn't mean they aren't an alcoholic or even an end stage alcoholic. All of us drink differently but it's the same disease. So this sort of thing with vic could be symptomatic of the disease. or/and/or/and ...hehe...the sympathy card could be an old, attention loving creep's ploys for attention. I wasn't around then, but if passing of a patriarch is to be believed, then vic had been put out to pasture and outshined by Martindale...maybe vic was ready to let the responsibility go but not the spotlight...That would explain all the pity potty garbage that came out of him towards the end of his life. It seemed like he was still politicking and trying to draw people away and to himself, except he now had given the spotlight to his successor, and his successor had grown beyond his control and was starring in Dancing with the Spirits...lol...aka...Athletes of the Spirit...
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But, at the same time, it's also possible to see the other comments as coming from someone who had numbed his own conscience, who only suspect he'd made some kind of mistake and displeased God because he wasn't getting miraculous healing, not because he knew what behavior would displease God and avoided all of it as best he knew how.
This is possible as well and it may be that all of these are contributing factors to one degree or another, hard to say 100% but it's intersting to consider all of this together.
Maybe vwierwille really did believe his own BS, maybe he was working with seducing spirits who convinced him they were God. It's possible he really did believe his own lies and tried to put the law of believing into play to cure himself. I tried to heal my son using the law of believing and failed misereably. I recount that fully in the link I posted to OldSkools two cents. It's possible he really was, finally, hit head with a dilemma of his own making. If he really believed all the bullshonta he spewed then it's a real possibility he was going through what I went through. Cognitive dissonance. I mean serious mental/emotional agitation because reality cant be controlled the way you believed it could. That will lead you to question yourself and everything you ever believed. If you don't consider the fact that your doctrines are in error then the only people left to blame are yourself and/or others.
The first questions I would ask about this story: is it true? Did it really happen? How do we know?
When this story first circulated, few knew of Saint Vic's shenanigans.
If you divorce yourself from Saint Vic's history, the story makes him sound like a tragic figure, like King Lear: Deliverance, deliverance, my kingdom for deliverance.
Or even Jesus Christ: My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
I'm not saying it couldn't have happened. Just, with stories like the eyes and fish hooks and Saint Vic risking his eye by filming the class over a weekend because the days are evil, I wonder...
Interesting to consider this as well....can these stories about vic really be believed. Well...I think "I wish I had been the man I knew to be" and "He was a mean man" are factual. I understand the first quote to be a deathbed confession and the other was made by his wife. So my point is that there could be a hefty amount of myth with some truth thrown into the mix for good measure. wierwille was certainly gifted with the dramatic and he seemed to be good at leading people into parallels that had him on par with Biblical figures such as David, etc. Really interseting to consider in this light.
"the sympathy card could be an old, attention loving creep's ploys for attention. I wasn't around then, but if passing of a patriarch is to be believed, then vic had been put out to pasture and outshined by Martindale...maybe vic was ready to let the responsibility go but not the spotlight...That would explain all the pity potty garbage that came out of him towards the end of his life. "
I don't question that the pity-party was in effect- I'm confident it was. I might disagree about what affected what, however.
vpw had to step down due to his body pretty much deteriorating. vpw had smoked and drank HEAVILY for decades, and the resulting cancer was killing him, starting with his eye and his liver, and was going to keep going after his entire body in a progressive wave of destruction. On top of that, he was getting old- and looked the worse for wear due to the heavy drinking and smoking. So, he had to have an eye removed and used a glass eye prosthetic. That bothered him on many levels, not the least of which was his vanity. His approaching mortality had to be a subject that came up, as well. vpw was never a mature man, nor a wise man. His reactions would not have demonstrated that, and that's no surprise.
So, he handed over the reins to lcm because he had to. He'd previously puffed up lcm's ego, and had previously made twi a one-man show. Now, all of that was going to work against him. Now someone else was ALL the show. So, suddenly, vpw went from the central figure to someone on the outside who was easily shoved-aside and ignored. Those who knew him well knew how immature he was and often how difficult he was, and now they didn't HAVE to deal with him- so they didn't. The new big cheese was lcm, so everyone focused on him- and lcm didn't waste time making everything about him, either. If ANYTHING happened in twi that got some kind of notice, he HAD to be in the middle. High Country Caravan? He was on it. Tom Burke did a satirical album? lcm made an intro. Bands showed up onstage? lcm, despite neither singing nor playing an instrument, often ended up on the stage by the end, in time for the applause. AOS was only the cherry on the sundae.
Yes, vpw wanted attention. Yes, he went overseas so cgeer could pretend he was important and kowtow to him. vpw ranted to him at length about a lot of nonsense, and predicted all sorts of things about twi that completely failed to come to pass.
(I lost a post previously, so I didn't want to lose everything in one post again.) I think vpw DID have regrets, but they weren't the type of regrets a mature leader would have.
He expressed regret about losing his eye- because it was a visible reminder of his failings. He said privately to lcm that what bothered him was that, in the OT, a priest with a blemish was no longer able to serve in the temple. Taken from his perspective, it was a rather visible reminder that his "believing" doctrine failed to heal him. He'd set forth that he was some great one, with "Super-Believing", so that twi'ers connected him with The Great Power of God. vpw had made a point of that, often. So, when he really needed it, it failed him because his doctrine was flawed. One doesn't alter reality simply through "believing." God Almighty alters reality when He wishes, and we pray and ASK for any alterations we want. But in vpw's system, vpw was supposed to be able to believe, and the healing would happen miraculously- like in his claim about instant healings off backs of trains. (If that had been real, this one would have been a cinch!) A lot of the Word-Faith preachers have problems with that- their system says they can "believe" and all kinds of healing will result. However, they die at young ages, and wear glasses, and have other visible signs of flawed health. If I could just concentrate and my body would conform to my mental picture, I would definitely be in excellent health, and I probably would look good enough to do movies, or at least TV. For that matter, I'd live a longer life with excellent health, and my nearest and dearest would do well similarly- hey, concentrate and the spouse's cold goes away? (Etc.)
When it comes to his final hours, I think he really DID buy into the idea that he could concentrate and miraculously heal. I think he was searching his mind for what he was missing. Rather than accept his doctrine was flawed, he put the blame on himself and on others, as you said. With cgeer, he blamed everybody by name. In his last day, he tried to think of how he'd fallen short of being able to super-believe by displeasing God somehow. In between all the rapes, druggings, simony, plagiarism, and so on, he was unable to identify ANYTHING that would displease God. I think that's true, and in his mind, all of those were excusable and all right with God. After all, he thought ORGIES were OK with God, just not OK with people.
So, I think his regret was that he had failed to Super-Believe, and that he said so. I think people mistook that for something a lot more profound. He "knew himself to be" Super-Believer, who alters reality at a thought. He failed at that and died. He wished he had believed stronger. I don't think he regretted living a less moral life because he didn't even recognize it on his DEATHBED.
(I lost a post previously, so I didn't want to lose everything in one post again.) I think vpw DID have regrets, but they weren't the type of regrets a mature leader would have.
He expressed regret about losing his eye- because it was a visible reminder of his failings. He said privately to lcm that what bothered him was that, in the OT, a priest with a blemish was no longer able to serve in the temple. Taken from his perspective, it was a rather visible reminder that his "believing" doctrine failed to heal him. He'd set forth that he was some great one, with "Super-Believing", so that twi'ers connected him with The Great Power of God. vpw had made a point of that, often. So, when he really needed it, it failed him because his doctrine was flawed. One doesn't alter reality simply through "believing." God Almighty alters reality when He wishes, and we pray and ASK for any alterations we want. But in vpw's system, vpw was supposed to be able to believe, and the healing would happen miraculously- like in his claim about instant healings off backs of trains. (If that had been real, this one would have been a cinch!) A lot of the Word-Faith preachers have problems with that- their system says they can "believe" and all kinds of healing will result. However, they die at young ages, and wear glasses, and have other visible signs of flawed health. If I could just concentrate and my body would conform to my mental picture, I would definitely be in excellent health, and I probably would look good enough to do movies, or at least TV. For that matter, I'd live a longer life with excellent health, and my nearest and dearest would do well similarly- hey, concentrate and the spouse's cold goes away? (Etc.)
When it comes to his final hours, I think he really DID buy into the idea that he could concentrate and miraculously heal. I think he was searching his mind for what he was missing. Rather than accept his doctrine was flawed, he put the blame on himself and on others, as you said. With cgeer, he blamed everybody by name. In his last day, he tried to think of how he'd fallen short of being able to super-believe by displeasing God somehow. In between all the rapes, druggings, simony, plagiarism, and so on, he was unable to identify ANYTHING that would displease God. I think that's true, and in his mind, all of those were excusable and all right with God. After all, he thought ORGIES were OK with God, just not OK with people.
So, I think his regret was that he had failed to Super-Believe, and that he said so. I think people mistook that for something a lot more profound. He "knew himself to be" Super-Believer, who alters reality at a thought. He failed at that and died. He wished he had believed stronger. I don't think he regretted living a less moral life because he didn't even recognize it on his DEATHBED.
I appreciate the insight. I think what we are going to agree on here is he actually believed his own press, he really believed he was super believer and his special powers would kick in and BAM! No more metastasized cancer. I had never considered his immaturity simply cause I had never been around him. That same immaturity was definatly at home with Rosalie and Craig so it makes since it passed on down the line from Wierwille. Craig believed he was special as well. Ill never forget the several paragraphs in the way of abundance and power class corrdinators guide that stated how special martindale was and all that garbage.
So it seems he really believed his own press and the alcoholic pity party/attention seeking ploys were likely at play but more of a side note with his vanity bruised because he was actually human after all and in the end just a frail, bitter old man with no sense of wrongdoing towars the many people he victimized over the years. Thats a sad state of affairs.
I feel one of the key traits from the occult that wierwille brought into his theology was a very, cold, impersonal representation of God. Check the language wierwille uses over and over again.
Scripture does not support this attitude of grabbing the things of God...like a greedy lil pig.
Philippians 2:6-8 Amplified Bible (AMP)
who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes—the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted [as if He did not already possess it, or was afraid of losing it]; but emptied Himself [without renouncing or diminishing His deity, but only temporarily giving up the outward expression of divine equality and His rightful dignity] by assuming the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men [He became completely human but was without sin, being fully God and fully man]. After He was found in [terms of His] outward appearance as a man [for a divinely-appointed time], He humbled Himself [still further] by becoming obedient [to the Father] to the point of death, even death on a cross.
One of the main common denominators that occultism brings to Christianity is it takes the true nature of Christianity, which is relational, and makes it all very impersonal. The lies stack up quickly from there. Instead of God being our Father and us his children God becomes a passive observer who has given it all to the ones with the most believing. Lies. Christianity is relationship based. God isn't a spiritual keg that we are to tap into.He is our loving heavenly Father who freely gives all things to his children. The power of God flows from the love of God which is always fellowship based. Jesus Christ himself is held up as an example in his exalted state. He became exalted by becoming a servant. Not appropriating, or grabbing anything.
Regarding your last paragraph (which I find to be very powerful), I've noticed you often write about a personal relationship between us and God and Christ, with Godly love being the bond that holds it all together. The sentences I highlighted in black makes me wonder for Christians who grew up spiritually under this paradigm and believed in it for many years, just how challenging it is to get out from under such a burdensome mantle of responsibility placed on to us through twi.
On a different thread, T-Bone shared this from the article, "What Does It Mean To 'Change The Narrative'? - Step By Step Parents" - "Basically, what this means is that our FEAR can be directly linked to our first introduction and mental images of the narrative we’ve been conditioned to believe as true." He also wrote personally, "To escape the mental prison of a harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cult like The Way International, I had to take it upon myself to change the narrative..."
Twinky wrote about how a loving, community-based church helped her after she left twi.
A lot of other helpful advice has been given by posters on GSC. I see though how necessary it is to keep the goal always in our sight as we work our way out of the past spiritual emptiness, and that goal isthe true nature of Christianity as highlighted in red above. For me, this goal will be the wind beneath my wings.
I've noticed you often write about a personal relationship between us and God and Christ, with Godly love being the bond that holds it all together. The sentences I highlighted in black makes me wonder for Christians who grew up spiritually under this paradigm and believed in it for many years, just how challenging it is to get out from under such a burdensome mantle of responsibility placed on to us through twi.
Well, for me at least, it's been a progerssion and I did not grow up in the way ministry. Started out southern Baptist, the black arts, the way international, ---> to where Christ has led me today. Just a servant enjoying the life of a Son of God and all that brings.
I think it has to be extremely challenging, if not outright impossible for people who were raised in TWI to make it out, or to make it out and ever be totally free...heck Im not totally free either...scars remind us.
Well, for me at least, it's been a progerssion and I did not grow up in the way ministry. Started out southern Baptist, the black arts, the way international, ---> to where Christ has led me today. Just a servant enjoying the life of a Son of God and all that brings.
I think it has to be extremely challenging, if not outright impossible for people who were raised in TWI to make it out, or to make it out and ever be totally free...heck Im not totally free either...scars remind us.
Hi OldSkool, I need to clarify something. When I said,
"The sentences I highlighted in black makes me wonder for Christianswho grew up spiritually under this paradigm and believed in it for many years, just how challenging it is to get out from under such a burdensome mantle of responsibility placed on to us through twi,"
I wasn't talking about physically growing up in the ministry. Sorry, my bad. I was referring to Christians whose walk in Chris began with their involvement in twi - when they learned early on that their relationship with God was all wrapped up in the law of believing in order to receive anything from Him.
Regardless, may Christ lead all of us who have left twi into a relationship with the Father that is based on love. Jeremiah 31:13
Regardless, may Christ lead all of us who have left twi into a relationship with the Father that is based on love. Jeremiah 31:13
And I think that is where it all meets the road. Christ is able to draw us out from whatever would seek to bind us. He knows how to lead people out if they want to go and he knows how to peel the scales off of our eyes. A person has to be willing to turn aside and see..but I was so gung-ho and committed to TWI at one point and look at me now...
Rosalind Rinker supposedly was influenced by Agnes Sandford.
Rinker apparently made popular an idea that prayer is a conversation with God.
I don't know how anyone is supposed to pray, but on the surface that sounds like making God an equal. Which is probably wrong on some level.
That's interesting. Scripture tells several ways to pray...I'm not sure if it's ever explicitly stated how to pray..so much as things to pray for or in like manner pray like this...such as Lord's prayer...it wasnt that the prayer was to be recited mindlessly..but in this manner...I don't think there's anything wrong with talking to God conversationally...the attitude of love and respect is more important. So I can't say if she's in error or not cause scripture doesn't define it that way in the new testament...guess we can figure it out together...I'm learning as we go.
"The sentences I highlighted in black makes me wonder for Christianswho grew up spiritually under this paradigm and believed in it for many years, just how challenging it is to get out from under such a burdensome mantle of responsibility placed on to us through twi,"
…
Regardless, may Christ lead all of us who have left twi into a relationship with the Father that is based on love. Jeremiah 31:13
Yes all that ingrained thinking combined with vested interest and the fear of change at older ages really prevents a lot in TWI from really considering the roots of your belief system.
The leaders especially. In one sense I can feel for them like the head guy in charge who circulated his over inflated resume a while ago to find out no other Christian group needed a genius of his capacity. They have 20 years on a resume and they’re not going to go drive for Amazon delivery when their alternative is extending the wineskin out another generation.
They have the same problem Craig has. Or they would have if the Way went away tomorrow.
Rosalind Rinker supposedly was influenced by Agnes Sandford.
Rinker apparently made popular an idea that prayer is a conversation with God.
I don't know how anyone is supposed to pray, but on the surface that sounds like making God an equal. Which is probably wrong on some level.
Well the Lord’s Prayer has all Greek verbs in the imperative tense.
I guess that is a bit demanding lol.
I would think that someone with enough going on to be your Lord and Savior would be ok with some slang terminology if that makes a person feel more comfortable in prayer.
Its probably not a huge deal even if Pharisees have some unwritten spoken tradition about it.
That's interesting. Scripture tells several ways to pray...I'm not sure if it's ever explicitly stated how to pray..so much as things to pray for or in like manner pray like this...such as Lord's prayer...it wasnt that the prayer was to be recited mindlessly..but in this manner...I don't think there's anything wrong with talking to God conversationally...the attitude of love and respect is more important. So I can't say if she's in error or not cause scripture doesn't define it that way in the new testament...guess we can figure it out together...I'm learning as we go.
I agree about the love and respect being the important parts. We can level with God- but always acknowledging Him as God Almighty.
I think George Mueller was on to something with HOW he prayed as much as how often he prayed. An eyewitness described it as something a child might say.... and that eyewitness was the captain of the Sardian.
That's interesting. Scripture tells several ways to pray...I'm not sure if it's ever explicitly stated how to pray..so much as things to pray for or in like manner pray like this...such as Lord's prayer...it wasnt that the prayer was to be recited mindlessly..but in this manner...I don't think there's anything wrong with talking to God conversationally...the attitude of love and respect is more important. So I can't say if she's in error or not cause scripture doesn't define it that way in the new testament...guess we can figure it out together...I'm learning as we go.
The Law of Believing ultimately is about controlling God and The Universe and your annoying neighbor.
"She taught that everything is a matter of thought-vibrations. We can be made ill by negative vibrations, can heal ourselves and others through positive vibrations and can even forgive the sins of others and turn them into Christians in this way. She writes, "...project into the burglar's mind the love of God, by seeing him as a child of God and asking God to bless him [p 60]. A new age is being born...when love-power, [projected] at the command of ministers and surveyors and children and everyone, is sufficient to change hearts....This is the beginning of a new order...the dawning of a new day!...As our prayers, our mental training and our acts of forgiveness fuse into a high consciousness of God's indwelling, we become more and more aware of an inner source of power that can be tapped at will" (p 75). Mary Baker Eddy was no worse!"
A number of sights claim Rosalind Rinker was influenced by Agnes Sanford but I am unclear how.
Rosalind Rinker had a flash of incite during a snowstorm . . . and apparently influenced VPW . . . I'll have to review DWBH's input on all that.
Charles Inglis, the well-known evangelist, relates the following remarkable incident:
"When I first came to America thirty-one years ago, I crossed the Atlantic with the captain of a steamer who was one of the most devoted men I ever knew; and when we were off the banks of Newfoundland he said to me: 'Mr. Inglis, the last time' I crossed here, five weeks ago, one of the most extraordinary things happened that has completely revolutionized the whole of my Christian life. Up to that time I was one of your ordinary Christians. We had a man of God on board, George Mueller, of Bristol. I had been on that bridge for twenty-two hours and never left it. I was startled by someone tapping me on the shoulder. It was George Mueller.
Captain,' said he, 'I have come to tell you that I must be in Quebec on Saturday afternoon.' This was Wednesday.
It is impossible,' I said. Very well, if your ship can't take me God will find some other means of locomotion to take me.
I have never broken an engagement in fifty-seven years.'
I would willingly help you, but how can I? I am helpless.'
Let us go down to the chart room and pray,' he said.
"I looked at this man and I thought to myself, 'What lunatic asylum could the man have come from? I never heard of such a thing.'
"'Mr. Mueller,' I said, 'do you know how dense this fog is?'
No,' he replied, 'my eye is not on the density of the fog, but on the living God, who controls every circumstance of my life.'
"He went down on his knees, and he prayed one of the most simple prayers. I thought to myself, 'That would suit a children's class, where the children were not more than eight or nine years of age.' The burden of his prayer was something like this: 'O Lord, if it is consistent with Thy will, please remove this fog in five minutes. You know the engagement You made for me in Quebec for Saturday. I believe it is Your will.'
"When he had finished, I was going to pray, but he put his hand on my shoulder and told me not to pray.
First,' he said, 'you do not believe God will do it; and, second, I believe He has done it. And there is no need whatever for you to pray about it.'
I looked at him, and George Mueller said this: 'Captain, I have known my Lord for fifty-seven years and there has never been a single day that I have failed to gain an audience with the King. Get up, Captain and open the door, and you will find the fog is gone.' I got up, and the fog was gone. On Saturday afternoon George Mueller was in Quebec."
also - good article by Dave Hunt ! I've got 3 of his books...and he's one of the first authors I got into after I left TWI that helped me see through the prosperity gospel / health & wealth bull$hit promoted by TWI and other religious con artists.
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Nathan_Jr
It's not a matter of looking for them to find them. It's a matter of the flaws literally leaping off the page for anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear.
waysider
Well, at least that lady got the red drapes she wanted. So, there's that.
waysider
This isn't about who was and who wasn't in the Corps, it's about how VPW laced his doctrinal stew with ingredients culled from the occult. That story about a mother's fear being responsible for her li
WordWolf
I think you've the right of it. He wasn't sorry of the sins he'd committed- he'd convinced themselves they weren't sins or they didn't count.
What he regretted was he lacked his storied "super-believer" ability to instantly heal up when he believed. He bought into his own press and thought he could do it.
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So_crates
The first questions I would ask about this story: is it true? Did it really happen? How do we know?
When this story first circulated, few knew of Saint Vic's shenanigans.
If you divorce yourself from Saint Vic's history, the story makes him sound like a tragic figure, like King Lear: Deliverance, deliverance, my kingdom for deliverance.
Or even Jesus Christ: My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
I'm not saying it couldn't have happened. Just, with stories like the eyes and fish hooks and Saint Vic risking his eye by filming the class over a weekend because the days are evil, I wonder...
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WordWolf
When I first heard it was a few years ago. One poster said they were friends with someone who had lived on-grounds at the time and was one of the last few people to see vpw alive. That person told about how vpw was stressing himself in his final hours, trying to figure that one out.
If I was depicting a fraud Christian leader who was at Death's Door (whether myself or someone else), I'd expect the person to approach death with a lot more peace in themself, and prayers for those outliving them. "My conscience is bothering me" for someone who normally went around sinning is an odd choice. "My conscience is clear and I'm ready to face my God now or next in my perception" is what I'd expect to see. It's also how Pope John Paul II seemed to face death. From eyewitness accounts, it looked like he was praying for the Catholics as a whole right when he died. (My interpretation of the description; your mileage may vary.)
Perhaps, from the perspective of a more innocent person, vpw's comments may sound a lot more innocent. Later comments certainly did- blaming everyone around him for "helping kill" him with insufficient believing, "he died of a broken heart", bs like that. He certainly fed a line of bull cookies like that to geer- who wrote it down and confronted the bot not long after vpw died. But, at the same time, it's also possible to see the other comments as coming from someone who had numbed his own conscience, who only suspect he'd made some kind of mistake and displeased God because he wasn't getting miraculous healing, not because he knew what behavior would displease God and avoided all of it as best he knew how.
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waysider
If only he'd left a literal translation according to usage. Maybe a word study will solve the mystery.
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OldSkool
Its intersting that you posted a series of very clear scriptures warning about these matters and it took absolutely NO biblical research, just open the Bible -- and read it! Thanks for the verses. I enjoyed reading them and they are most appropriate to the topic.
Lately my approach has been a top down, slightly to the left, then hook straight around the curve, take the first right on the left and BAM! your at Aunt Sheniqua's house.
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OldSkool
Thats interesting to consider in light of sneaking boundaries incrementally from where God would have us place said boundaries. I think it makes sense to say that you are your values. Everyone has values, even if the values a person espouses is to have no values. A lot of conflict in life arises from values and choosing the source of these values: God/Christ or Satan/various worldly disciplines. (Disclaimer: I realize that is a rather fundamentalist sounding contrast when it comes to values - there are many secular disciplines that have nothing to do with God or Satan...so theres that)
A persons conscience is determined by their values. I think that makes a lot of sense.
In the case of satanic values it's do whatever you want and that's the end of it. In such a case I would expect no conscience condemning anything cause everything is alright. Wierwille had no conscience that I am aware of....
That's an interesting dichotomy. Lets check it from the two possibilites you mentioned.
Ive been thinking about this a lot in this context since reading it early this morning. Im thinking that all of this poor ole me crap could be a combination of a couple things...first off, alcoholics love pity. There is a pithy little saying in Alcoholics Anonamous (Im not in AA but talk with my uncle frequently who has 40 years in AA) that goes like this: "Poor me...poor me... pour me another drink! I believe vic was a functioning alcoholic. That a person hasn't lost the ability to function doesn't mean they aren't an alcoholic or even an end stage alcoholic. All of us drink differently but it's the same disease. So this sort of thing with vic could be symptomatic of the disease. or/and/or/and ...hehe...the sympathy card could be an old, attention loving creep's ploys for attention. I wasn't around then, but if passing of a patriarch is to be believed, then vic had been put out to pasture and outshined by Martindale...maybe vic was ready to let the responsibility go but not the spotlight...That would explain all the pity potty garbage that came out of him towards the end of his life. It seemed like he was still politicking and trying to draw people away and to himself, except he now had given the spotlight to his successor, and his successor had grown beyond his control and was starring in Dancing with the Spirits...lol...aka...Athletes of the Spirit...
This is possible as well and it may be that all of these are contributing factors to one degree or another, hard to say 100% but it's intersting to consider all of this together.
Maybe vwierwille really did believe his own BS, maybe he was working with seducing spirits who convinced him they were God. It's possible he really did believe his own lies and tried to put the law of believing into play to cure himself. I tried to heal my son using the law of believing and failed misereably. I recount that fully in the link I posted to OldSkools two cents. It's possible he really was, finally, hit head with a dilemma of his own making. If he really believed all the bullshonta he spewed then it's a real possibility he was going through what I went through. Cognitive dissonance. I mean serious mental/emotional agitation because reality cant be controlled the way you believed it could. That will lead you to question yourself and everything you ever believed. If you don't consider the fact that your doctrines are in error then the only people left to blame are yourself and/or others.
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OldSkool
Interesting to consider this as well....can these stories about vic really be believed. Well...I think "I wish I had been the man I knew to be" and "He was a mean man" are factual. I understand the first quote to be a deathbed confession and the other was made by his wife. So my point is that there could be a hefty amount of myth with some truth thrown into the mix for good measure. wierwille was certainly gifted with the dramatic and he seemed to be good at leading people into parallels that had him on par with Biblical figures such as David, etc. Really interseting to consider in this light.
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WordWolf
"the sympathy card could be an old, attention loving creep's ploys for attention. I wasn't around then, but if passing of a patriarch is to be believed, then vic had been put out to pasture and outshined by Martindale...maybe vic was ready to let the responsibility go but not the spotlight...That would explain all the pity potty garbage that came out of him towards the end of his life. "
I don't question that the pity-party was in effect- I'm confident it was. I might disagree about what affected what, however.
vpw had to step down due to his body pretty much deteriorating. vpw had smoked and drank HEAVILY for decades, and the resulting cancer was killing him, starting with his eye and his liver, and was going to keep going after his entire body in a progressive wave of destruction. On top of that, he was getting old- and looked the worse for wear due to the heavy drinking and smoking. So, he had to have an eye removed and used a glass eye prosthetic. That bothered him on many levels, not the least of which was his vanity. His approaching mortality had to be a subject that came up, as well. vpw was never a mature man, nor a wise man. His reactions would not have demonstrated that, and that's no surprise.
So, he handed over the reins to lcm because he had to. He'd previously puffed up lcm's ego, and had previously made twi a one-man show. Now, all of that was going to work against him. Now someone else was ALL the show. So, suddenly, vpw went from the central figure to someone on the outside who was easily shoved-aside and ignored. Those who knew him well knew how immature he was and often how difficult he was, and now they didn't HAVE to deal with him- so they didn't. The new big cheese was lcm, so everyone focused on him- and lcm didn't waste time making everything about him, either. If ANYTHING happened in twi that got some kind of notice, he HAD to be in the middle. High Country Caravan? He was on it. Tom Burke did a satirical album? lcm made an intro. Bands showed up onstage? lcm, despite neither singing nor playing an instrument, often ended up on the stage by the end, in time for the applause. AOS was only the cherry on the sundae.
Yes, vpw wanted attention. Yes, he went overseas so cgeer could pretend he was important and kowtow to him. vpw ranted to him at length about a lot of nonsense, and predicted all sorts of things about twi that completely failed to come to pass.
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WordWolf
(I lost a post previously, so I didn't want to lose everything in one post again.) I think vpw DID have regrets, but they weren't the type of regrets a mature leader would have.
He expressed regret about losing his eye- because it was a visible reminder of his failings. He said privately to lcm that what bothered him was that, in the OT, a priest with a blemish was no longer able to serve in the temple. Taken from his perspective, it was a rather visible reminder that his "believing" doctrine failed to heal him. He'd set forth that he was some great one, with "Super-Believing", so that twi'ers connected him with The Great Power of God. vpw had made a point of that, often. So, when he really needed it, it failed him because his doctrine was flawed. One doesn't alter reality simply through "believing." God Almighty alters reality when He wishes, and we pray and ASK for any alterations we want. But in vpw's system, vpw was supposed to be able to believe, and the healing would happen miraculously- like in his claim about instant healings off backs of trains. (If that had been real, this one would have been a cinch!) A lot of the Word-Faith preachers have problems with that- their system says they can "believe" and all kinds of healing will result. However, they die at young ages, and wear glasses, and have other visible signs of flawed health. If I could just concentrate and my body would conform to my mental picture, I would definitely be in excellent health, and I probably would look good enough to do movies, or at least TV. For that matter, I'd live a longer life with excellent health, and my nearest and dearest would do well similarly- hey, concentrate and the spouse's cold goes away? (Etc.)
When it comes to his final hours, I think he really DID buy into the idea that he could concentrate and miraculously heal. I think he was searching his mind for what he was missing. Rather than accept his doctrine was flawed, he put the blame on himself and on others, as you said. With cgeer, he blamed everybody by name. In his last day, he tried to think of how he'd fallen short of being able to super-believe by displeasing God somehow. In between all the rapes, druggings, simony, plagiarism, and so on, he was unable to identify ANYTHING that would displease God. I think that's true, and in his mind, all of those were excusable and all right with God. After all, he thought ORGIES were OK with God, just not OK with people.
So, I think his regret was that he had failed to Super-Believe, and that he said so. I think people mistook that for something a lot more profound. He "knew himself to be" Super-Believer, who alters reality at a thought. He failed at that and died. He wished he had believed stronger. I don't think he regretted living a less moral life because he didn't even recognize it on his DEATHBED.
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OldSkool
I appreciate the insight. I think what we are going to agree on here is he actually believed his own press, he really believed he was super believer and his special powers would kick in and BAM! No more metastasized cancer. I had never considered his immaturity simply cause I had never been around him. That same immaturity was definatly at home with Rosalie and Craig so it makes since it passed on down the line from Wierwille. Craig believed he was special as well. Ill never forget the several paragraphs in the way of abundance and power class corrdinators guide that stated how special martindale was and all that garbage.
So it seems he really believed his own press and the alcoholic pity party/attention seeking ploys were likely at play but more of a side note with his vanity bruised because he was actually human after all and in the end just a frail, bitter old man with no sense of wrongdoing towars the many people he victimized over the years. Thats a sad state of affairs.
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Charity
Regarding your last paragraph (which I find to be very powerful), I've noticed you often write about a personal relationship between us and God and Christ, with Godly love being the bond that holds it all together. The sentences I highlighted in black makes me wonder for Christians who grew up spiritually under this paradigm and believed in it for many years, just how challenging it is to get out from under such a burdensome mantle of responsibility placed on to us through twi.
On a different thread, T-Bone shared this from the article, "What Does It Mean To 'Change The Narrative'? - Step By Step Parents" - "Basically, what this means is that our FEAR can be directly linked to our first introduction and mental images of the narrative we’ve been conditioned to believe as true." He also wrote personally, "To escape the mental prison of a harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cult like The Way International, I had to take it upon myself to change the narrative..."
Twinky wrote about how a loving, community-based church helped her after she left twi.
A lot of other helpful advice has been given by posters on GSC. I see though how necessary it is to keep the goal always in our sight as we work our way out of the past spiritual emptiness, and that goal is the true nature of Christianity as highlighted in red above. For me, this goal will be the wind beneath my wings.
Thanks everyone
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OldSkool
Well, for me at least, it's been a progerssion and I did not grow up in the way ministry. Started out southern Baptist, the black arts, the way international, ---> to where Christ has led me today. Just a servant enjoying the life of a Son of God and all that brings.
I think it has to be extremely challenging, if not outright impossible for people who were raised in TWI to make it out, or to make it out and ever be totally free...heck Im not totally free either...scars remind us.
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Charity
Hi OldSkool, I need to clarify something. When I said,
"The sentences I highlighted in black makes me wonder for Christians who grew up spiritually under this paradigm and believed in it for many years, just how challenging it is to get out from under such a burdensome mantle of responsibility placed on to us through twi,"
I wasn't talking about physically growing up in the ministry. Sorry, my bad. I was referring to Christians whose walk in Chris began with their involvement in twi - when they learned early on that their relationship with God was all wrapped up in the law of believing in order to receive anything from Him.
Regardless, may Christ lead all of us who have left twi into a relationship with the Father that is based on love. Jeremiah 31:13
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OldSkool
And I think that is where it all meets the road. Christ is able to draw us out from whatever would seek to bind us. He knows how to lead people out if they want to go and he knows how to peel the scales off of our eyes. A person has to be willing to turn aside and see..but I was so gung-ho and committed to TWI at one point and look at me now...
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Bolshevik
Rosalind Rinker supposedly was influenced by Agnes Sandford.
Rinker apparently made popular an idea that prayer is a conversation with God.
I don't know how anyone is supposed to pray, but on the surface that sounds like making God an equal. Which is probably wrong on some level.
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OldSkool
That's interesting. Scripture tells several ways to pray...I'm not sure if it's ever explicitly stated how to pray..so much as things to pray for or in like manner pray like this...such as Lord's prayer...it wasnt that the prayer was to be recited mindlessly..but in this manner...I don't think there's anything wrong with talking to God conversationally...the attitude of love and respect is more important. So I can't say if she's in error or not cause scripture doesn't define it that way in the new testament...guess we can figure it out together...I'm learning as we go.
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chockfull
Yes all that ingrained thinking combined with vested interest and the fear of change at older ages really prevents a lot in TWI from really considering the roots of your belief system.
The leaders especially. In one sense I can feel for them like the head guy in charge who circulated his over inflated resume a while ago to find out no other Christian group needed a genius of his capacity. They have 20 years on a resume and they’re not going to go drive for Amazon delivery when their alternative is extending the wineskin out another generation.
They have the same problem Craig has. Or they would have if the Way went away tomorrow.
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chockfull
Well the Lord’s Prayer has all Greek verbs in the imperative tense.
I guess that is a bit demanding lol.
I would think that someone with enough going on to be your Lord and Savior would be ok with some slang terminology if that makes a person feel more comfortable in prayer.
Its probably not a huge deal even if Pharisees have some unwritten spoken tradition about it.
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WordWolf
I agree about the love and respect being the important parts. We can level with God- but always acknowledging Him as God Almighty.
I think George Mueller was on to something with HOW he prayed as much as how often he prayed. An eyewitness described it as something a child might say.... and that eyewitness was the captain of the Sardian.
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Bolshevik
The Law of Believing ultimately is about controlling God and The Universe and your annoying neighbor.
About Agnes:
A number of sights claim Rosalind Rinker was influenced by Agnes Sanford but I am unclear how.
Rosalind Rinker had a flash of incite during a snowstorm . . . and apparently influenced VPW . . . I'll have to review DWBH's input on all that.
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chockfull
Agnes sounds like she could teach a class on Gaslighting 101 lol.
This would be a candidate for a real class with a transcript that they could use in the Corps training program.
Then they could get college credit for real world experience lol.
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WordWolf
As for George Mueller and the Sardian, here's the best account I can find, recounted a few weeks later.
https://www.georgemuller.org/devotional/my-eye-is-not-on-the-fog2874126
My Eye Is Not On the Fog
6/10/2016
7 Comments
"When I first came to America thirty-one years ago, I crossed the Atlantic with the captain of a steamer who was one of the most devoted men I ever knew; and when we were off the banks of Newfoundland he said to me: 'Mr. Inglis, the last time' I crossed here, five weeks ago, one of the most extraordinary things happened that has completely revolutionized the whole of my Christian life. Up to that time I was one of your ordinary Christians. We had a man of God on board, George Mueller, of Bristol. I had been on that bridge for twenty-two hours and never left it. I was startled by someone tapping me on the shoulder. It was George Mueller.
Captain,' said he, 'I have come to tell you that I must be in Quebec on Saturday afternoon.' This was Wednesday.
It is impossible,' I said. Very well, if your ship can't take me God will find some other means of locomotion to take me.
I have never broken an engagement in fifty-seven years.'
I would willingly help you, but how can I? I am helpless.'
Let us go down to the chart room and pray,' he said.
"I looked at this man and I thought to myself, 'What lunatic asylum could the man have come from? I never heard of such a thing.'
"'Mr. Mueller,' I said, 'do you know how dense this fog is?'
No,' he replied, 'my eye is not on the density of the fog, but on the living God, who controls every circumstance of my life.'
"He went down on his knees, and he prayed one of the most simple prayers. I thought to myself, 'That would suit a children's class, where the children were not more than eight or nine years of age.' The burden of his prayer was something like this: 'O Lord, if it is consistent with Thy will, please remove this fog in five minutes. You know the engagement You made for me in Quebec for Saturday. I believe it is Your will.'
"When he had finished, I was going to pray, but he put his hand on my shoulder and told me not to pray.
First,' he said, 'you do not believe God will do it; and, second, I believe He has done it. And there is no need whatever for you to pray about it.'
I looked at him, and George Mueller said this: 'Captain, I have known my Lord for fifty-seven years and there has never been a single day that I have failed to gain an audience with the King. Get up, Captain and open the door, and you will find the fog is gone.' I got up, and the fog was gone. On Saturday afternoon George Mueller was in Quebec."
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T-Bone
Hi Bolshevik, I found a few relevant DWBH quotes:
DWBH comment on 6 stages of wierwille’s climb
DWBH comment on vpw truth lies reasons motives
DWBH comment on evidence letters vpw wrote
also - good article by Dave Hunt ! I've got 3 of his books...and he's one of the first authors I got into after I left TWI that helped me see through the prosperity gospel / health & wealth bull$hit promoted by TWI and other religious con artists.
Edited by T-Bonetighten up !
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OldSkool
Too many posts to quote...thanks WordWolf, Bolsh, Chock, T-Bone...I'll check all the links out when I'm home.
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