I feel one of the key traits from the occult that wierwille brought into his theology was a very, cold, impersonal representation of God. Check the language wierwille uses over and over again.
Quote
Bible Tells Me So, Part One, Page One: It is we who must appropriate the freedom from bondage which is available from God.
From its roots, the verb appropriate would mean basically "make one's own"—that is, "take", or sometimes "grab".
Scripture does not support this attitude of grabbing the things of God...like a greedy lil pig.
Philippians 2:6-8 Amplified Bible (AMP)
who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes—the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted [as if He did not already possess it, or was afraid of losing it]; but emptied Himself [without renouncing or diminishing His deity, but only temporarily giving up the outward expression of divine equality and His rightful dignity] by assuming the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men [He became completely human but was without sin, being fully God and fully man]. After He was found in [terms of His] outward appearance as a man [for a divinely-appointed time], He humbled Himself [still further] by becoming obedient [to the Father] to the point of death, even death on a cross.
One of the main common denominators that occultism brings to Christianity is it takes the true nature of Christitanity, which is relational, and makes it all very impersonal. The lies stack up quiclly from there. Instead of God being our Father and us his children God becomes a passive observer who has given it all to the ones with the most believing. Lies. Christianity is relationship based. God isn't a spiritual keg that we are to tap into. He is our loving heavenly Father who freely gives all things to his children. The power of God flows from the love of God which is always fellowship based. Jesus Chrsit himself is held up as an example in his exalted state. He bacame exalted by becoming a servant. Not appropriting, or grabbing anything.
And it is at this point that, for lack of knowledge and other personal reasons, I step aside from the discussion.
I don't blame you. Your lack of knowledge is glaring and your personal reasons are based in cognitive dissonance. Your idol is under attack...best step aside.
Gurdjieff’s personal sex life appears from all accounts to be complex and sometimes contradictory, with varied expressions throughout his life.
At times he was celibate, at other periods highly sexually charged.
He fathered numerous children out of wedlock, including many with his own female disciples.
Critics have roundly condemned Gurdjieff’s sexual behaviour as irresponsible and contrary to the actions of an authentic spiritual teacher.
But teachers in many other spiritual traditions have engaged in exactly the same kind of sexual behaviour.2
The notion that spiritual masters must always be celibate and beyond the “base desires of earthly sexuality” is clearly an idealized myth and not congruent with reality.
However, the issue of a sexual relationship between a spiritual teacher and his or her student(s) raises a number of important ethical questions:
Is a sexual relationship between a teacher and student harmful or beneficial from a spiritual perspective?
Is there an imbalance of power between teacher and student that compromises the authentic expression of a loving relationship between two equal partners?
Is it possible to separate an intimate sexual relationship from an objective impersonal transmission of spiritual knowledge?
Confirmation bias and a closed mind limit ones’s own knowledge and ability to see clearly.
The observer is the observed. Not everyone is able to see this.
But it's willful ignorance. He says he has a lack of knowledge but won't look at the knowledge that would help him understand fully just who and what victor paul wierwille truly was. He willfully remains ignorant that the doctrines he considers God breathed (PFAL, et. al.) are loaded with occultism.
lcm got the idea for "athletes of the spirit" in college, where the expression was already in use in Christian organizations. It came up again after college because Glenn Clark, one of the people vpw plagiarized, and his "camps furthest out" (ripped off for camps, and other outdoorsy stuff) included "athletes of the spirit" also. (None of those words are uncommon in usage in the English language.)
When lcm saw the John Travolta film "Staying Alive", he got the idea to do the 2-hour production that greatly resembled some of the dance scenes in the movie. There is no need to look further for the inspiration.
lcm got the idea for "athletes of the spirit" in college, where the expression was already in use in Christian organizations. It came up again after college because Glenn Clark, one of the people vpw plagiarized, and his "camps furthest out" (ripped off for camps, and other outdoorsy stuff) included "athletes of the spirit" also. (None of those words are uncommon in usage in the English language.)
When lcm saw the John Travolta film "Staying Alive", he got the idea to do the 2-hour production that greatly resembled some of the dance scenes in the movie. There is no need to look further for the inspiration.
Athletes of the Spirit was required watching when i was chasing classes so I could go into the way corps. I was always intrigued by the unabashed corniness of men in tights meets dancing with the spirits in a sort of competition type thing. I still think it's comical that LCM felt inspired by Travolta...hey at least Travolta has the resources to keep his personal air plane...lol
I need to search around a little, but to me it's interesting that the way tries to link the entire concept (even though blantantly lifted as you pointed out) back to wierwilles crazy notion of athletes of the spirit from Ephesians 6. I seem to remember Penworks spilling the beans on how wierwille mashed his unscriptural POV into things and called it research. The way international is embarrased by athletes of the spirit and it's been memory holed, same with The way living in love, et al.
Along the lines of occultic influences though, it's intersting to me how fascinated the way international is with the adversary...I mean they elevate all the things the devil can do and then place silly limitations on God that aren't true in the least. Then they had us plauing spiritual football or whatever in the spiritual competition....yeah...
Ahh...the junk tables at the advanced class (AC). That was a red flag to me that I rationalized away. There were all those books on the occult that they put on display for people to peruse on break during the AC. I used to have some of the books. Students were alway firmly warned to stay away from reading those books on our own...they were too dangerous and wierwille had a special ministry where God brought him all those books so he could read them and teach us....kinda like Frodo was a ring bearer and the only one who could take the ring to mount doom....or whatever....I digress once again...lmao
Ill bet a dollar to a dime we were warned not to read those books because wierwille lifted material for the advanced class' devil spirit categories and other junk from those books and they didn't want people to figure it out. Kinda just took what tickled his ears and eyeballs.
That reminds me of the discerning of Schrodinger’s cat session at the Advanced Class
Is it possible for the cat to be possessed and not possessed at the same time?
Also, could double as a meme for burning the candle at both ends/chewing the box at both ends
I would like to see a porch pirate try to steal this Amazon package
This is called the Schrodinger effect. Is Mike really there on the thread? Or he’s not really there.
Well it’s difficult to step away, when you folks are struggling and wandering.But I am aiming at other new projects, and feel that most of my work here has been done.
Someone posted that Craig got “Athletes of the Spirit” from college Christian groups.That’s merely the title, though.
Gurdjieff’s ideas saturated Craig’s production.The big idea Craig got from him was to TEACH the principles with DANCE and MUSIC, specifically ballet.I don’t think any of that was involved in campus outreach groups.
Gurdjieff called his play “The Struggle of the Magicians”and it was developed in Moscow, Russia, where ballet story telling is a national sport, almost.
I was cued in to Craig getting his ideas from Gurdjieff in the SNT announcements he made each week as “Athletes of the Spirit” was being developed. Craig’s explanations as to why they were doing the production, and the effects of learning it was to have on all the dancers, closely matched Gurdjieff’s explanations in "In Search of the Miraculous" by Ouspenski.
Gurdjieff was also into body motions and their effects on consciousness, a kind of hybrid yoga. He specialized in super alertness and super attention to detail.I heard Craig expound on this, again on a SNT tape, that cued more of my Gurdjieff memories. Gurdjieff’s liberal use of emotional shocks also seems to have colored Craig’s attitudes to training.
My lack of experience in these matters, and especially in the details of the Way Corps training, tells me I best back out of this topic, though.As the Corps matured I was less and less interested in what went on in there, and I turned a deaf ear to lots of Corps talk in the 1980s.I have given pretty much all I know about this topic.
I think Gurdjieffian ideas, some good and some corrupt, were put into the Corps program and are likely still residing in many people from Corps background.
think Gurdjieffian ideas, some good and some corrupt, were put into the Corps program and are likely still residing in many people from Corps background
Ya...you said all of this already....remember the parallels between gurdjieff and wierwille?
Gurdjieff’spersonal sex life appears from all accounts to be complex and sometimes contradictory, with varied expressions throughout his life.
At times he was celibate, at other periods highly sexually charged.
He fatherednumerous children out of wedlock, including many with his own female disciples.
Critics have roundly condemned Gurdjieff’s sexual behaviour as irresponsible and contrary to the actions of an authentic spiritual teacher.
But teachers in many other spiritual traditions have engaged in exactly the same kind of sexual behaviour.2
The notion that spiritual masters must always be celibate and beyond the “base desires of earthly sexuality” is clearly an idealized myth and not congruent with reality.
However, the issue of a sexual relationship between a spiritual teacher and his or her student(s) raises a number of important ethical questions:
Is a sexual relationship between a teacher and student harmful or beneficial from a spiritual perspective?
Is there an imbalance of power between teacher and student that compromises the authentic expression of a loving relationship between two equal partners?
Is it possible to separate an intimate sexual relationship from an objective impersonal transmission of spiritualknowledge?
There was a LOT more than just sex involved in Gurdgieff's ideas on training and discipline.
So, don't let sensationalism help you sweep these training and discipline ideas under the rug.
I said they were parallells. Not that there was a connection with either craig or wierwille. You introduced this gurdoff guy so show me where he was an influence of vpw. I showed that much with the people I listed.
Maybe Mike doesn’t realize all great cult-leaders think alike. Not in terms of “signature” tenets but in their methods of manipulation / indoctrination. For example. it’s been discussed on other threads the similarity of “management” tactics with Scientology and The Way International. I think it's the same thing with this Gurdjieff dude - from what I've been reading about his ways.
From my experience it seems to me concern for doctrine becomes secondary to everyone toeing the line. If purity of doctrine/correctly interpreting the Bible was the number priority of TWI, I would see an “evolution” in doctrine so to speak – an ongoing process of refinement…correction…updates…that's what the word “research” implies.
I remember LCM saying something along the lines of if someone ever finds something wrong in our doctrine, we change…but I’ve never seen that happen.
It’s the same old dogma – which in itself is both a litmus test to determine if you’re in the club – and prison guard to make sure you don’t escape.
I think all harmful and controlling cults are alike in that they optimize the bait-and-switch fraud. The bait they dangle out there to attract people are the attractive promises of their belief system. But once a person is hooked – the control tactics to keep them ensnared are basically the same.
I’m of the opinion that once the particular cult’s mindset is embedded in a new recruit – it’s more or less irrelevant as to what the doctrines are, since through indoctrination the beliefs were accepted uncritically.
I've been reevaluating TWI doctrine ever since I left - for some 36 years now - and I'm embarrassed to admit how gullible I was to accept all the magical thinking, Gnosticism, spiritualism, fundamentalism and Scripture twisting in PFAL up through all the other classes including the Advanced Class.
I guess some would try to argue TWI is promoting Christian beliefs. I beg to differ. Pseudo-Christian cults like TWI hijack Bible verses to promote their insidious and exploitative agenda. It’s not about the Lordship of Jesus Christ in one’s personal convictions – it’s about cult-leaders lording it over you to assert a position of control…dominance…subjugation. “The Word of wierwille” takes the place of the lordship of Jesus Christ.
I remember LCM saying something along the lines of if someone ever finds something wrong in our doctrine, we change…but I’ve never seen that happen.
Yeah...ditto...patent bullshonta. They are not interested in changing anything and have codified their errors as above reproach with the "proven ministry research" line that rosalie floated around when I was there. If it's proven ministry research it is above reproach.
37 minutes ago, T-Bone said:
I’m of the opinion that once the particular cult’s mindset is embedded in a new recruit – it’s more or less irrelevant as to what the doctrines are, since through indoctrination the beliefs were accepted uncritically.
I think you have an interesting point. You had me thinking back to my early days of chasing my fellowship coordinator around like he was some spiritual giant. Most TWI practices, the practice is taught first and then they throw some verses and some bs explanation to make it fit. Ive really seen that move on steroids when the the directors want to ressert control over an area of concern. They make a few statements, insert open ended scipture quotes that are out of context but can be used as a bat to push people into the practice they want to reassert.
41 minutes ago, T-Bone said:
I've been reevaluating TWI doctrine ever since I left - for some 36 years now - and I'm embarrassed to admit how gullible I was to accept all the magical thinking, Gnosticism, spiritualism, fundamentalism and Scripture twisting in PFAL up through all the other classes including the Advanced Class.
Don't feel bad at all on that one. I was an occult practioner for around 8 years up until I met up with TWI. I then saw the same occult practices in the law of believing and made myself accept it with some BS excuses about da debil. I shoulda ran for the exits as soon as I noticed. Literally though, in most occult disciplines ( was involved in 4 over 8 years) involve concentrating on what you want to happen until it does. They employ charms, amulets, talismans, etc...now most occult disciplines believe that there is inherit power in these objects one of the main reasons they use them is to focus mental concentration. When I was really into voodoo I made a charm for generating income. I kept it in my wallet so everytime I opened my wallet I would be reminded to visualize money coming into my wallet. Sound familiar?
Maybe Mike doesn’t realize all great cult-leaders think alike. Not in terms of “signature” tenets but in their methods of manipulation / indoctrination. For example. it’s been discussed on other threads the similarity of “management” tactics with Scientology and The Way International. I think it's the same thing with this Gurdjieff dude - from what I've been reading about his ways.
This is an awesome point. He can readily observe the same errors VPW lived and taught in other cult leaders from other groups but not VPW/TWI. Mike is not-so-subtly trying to take the attention to craig martindale, this gurgendorf guy who has not connection, and the awful way corps that ruined everything st vic set in place. (I seem to remember somehwere...was it Passin of a Patriacrh?...where vic was blaming the way corps for everything going wrong?) Mike will do anything to get the attention off of VPW. Same with the way international. They let craig take the fall for all the rampant adultery and other sexual issues that were rampant in TWI when in reality it was victor paul wierwille that corrupted craig martindale. Not that craig didn't make it his own, but to let him take all the heat is dishonest as all get out.
I'm sure OldSkool already knows this, but in case any of you want a reminder....
The occult stuff of vpw began pretty early in pfal (and TWLiL). vpw invented those 2 rich businessmen, and their claim to success was that they locked themselves away each day, sat in silence, and THOUGHT about prosperity, and it happened. There were never names nor specifics because these men were made up to "support" vpw's claims. Quotes to the Bible were light, because forcing a connection was tenuous at best, and there was no real connection between the verses and vpw's claims.
Then there was the "traveling salesman" who vpw "counseled" because the man was dwelling on a possible crash while driving. Again, vpw invented him to support his "believing in reverse" thing.
Finally, there was the woman who murdered her son. She dwelt on her fears, and those fears jumped up and killed her son. vpw didn't counsel her to stop before it was too late- because she was imaginary and she was there to reinforce how fear can hurt and kill by making things happen.
Satanist Anton LaVey would have agreed with vpw about thinking to change things. He said that magic was meant to make reality conform to will. That sounds like it's right out of pfal (except for the word "magic.")
I'm sure OldSkool already knows this, but in case any of you want a reminder....
The occult stuff of vpw began pretty early in pfal (and TWLiL). vpw invented those 2 rich businessmen, and their claim to success was that they locked themselves away each day, sat in silence, and THOUGHT about prosperity, and it happened. There were never names nor specifics because these men were made up to "support" vpw's claims. Quotes to the Bible were light, because forcing a connection was tenuous at best, and there was no real connection between the verses and vpw's claims.
Then there was the "traveling salesman" who vpw "counseled" because the man was dwelling on a possible crash while driving. Again, vpw invented him to support his "believing in reverse" thing.
Finally, there was the woman who murdered her son. She dwelt on her fears, and those fears jumped up and killed her son. vpw didn't counsel her to stop before it was too late- because she was imaginary and she was there to reinforce how fear can hurt and kill by making things happen.
Satanist Anton LaVey would have agreed with vpw about thinking to change things. He said that magic was meant to make reality conform to will. That sounds like it's right out of pfal (except for the word "magic.")
I had forgotten about his made up examples, thanks for introducing those into the mix! They are excellent examples of what I want to illustrate with this topic.
I have read the Satanic Bible many times over...well...at least up until around 1990 when I decided to never pick it up again. Lavey quoted Aleister Crawley in this case. The will of the magician is the center of the magician's universe in the occult. Then there is what Crawley basically set in stone across occult world "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". Basically, do whatever you want as long as you don't hurt anyone else. There is no right or wrong...sound like someone we know? Victor paul wierwille counselling his sexual victims to keep it all in the lockbox,....everything is ok as long as your believing is fine....yeah.
It's interesting the way these topics make me feel...I am so ashamed that I was involved in the occult...this isn't a comfortable topic and it's wierd exposing this side of my life. But I will hold nothing back and let my errors serve as a warning to others.
In fairness, I probably quoted Crowley and named LaVey by accident. (It's not like I normally go around reading their stuff.)
It's interesting (to me, if no one else), that modern paganism uses the modified "An it hurt no one, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, " which adds the "don't hurt anyone" clause. So, college students experimenting with it for the first time know that you should start by knowing not to hurt people. It should be more than self-evident to anyone who's got at least a casual relationship with the Bible, as well.
Yet, some self-proclaimed "experts" in the Bible, self-proclaimed "Teachers" sometimes not only are fine hurting people as a matter of course, but later can't remember ever doing anything wrong. That's something that I still marvel over- vpw, on his deathbed, supposedly wracked his memory, looking for some incident or action whereby he displeased God Almighty. He was unable to find one- despite the molestations, druggings, rapes, plagiarism, simony, gluttony.....
In fairness, I probably quoted Crowley and named LaVey by accident.
LaVey and most modern day occultist pull heavily from Crowley. So, it could be either and/or both that you quoted.
2 hours ago, WordWolf said:
It's interesting (to me, if no one else), that modern paganism uses the modified "An it hurt no one, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, " which adds the "don't hurt anyone" clause. So, college students experimenting with it for the first time know that you should start by knowing not to hurt people. It should be more than self-evident to anyone who's got at least a casual relationship with the Bible, as well.
When I lived out in Hollywood I took a series of lectures/classes from an occultist named George Derby. (in 1992) He helped run an occult shop in Hollywood that is still in existence today, although they have moved locations.
It was George Derby who added the clause "as long that it doesn't hurt anyone to the do as thou wilt quote from Crowley/LaVey, cause they both taught that junk. I don't know if Derby added it himself, if it was implied all along from Crowley to make it more palatable, or if someone else added and Derby quoted them. To be clear, as far as I know LaVey and Crowley didn't qualify that statement. So, in all actuality, to many people "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" has no niceness clause built into it the way I was taught. Also, Derby and I had no relationship other than me taking his classes and the times I talked to him when I was in Panpipes..which in 91/92 was often but we werent buddies.
2 hours ago, WordWolf said:
Yet, some self-proclaimed "experts" in the Bible, self-proclaimed "Teachers" sometimes not only are fine hurting people as a matter of course, but later can't remember ever doing anything wrong. That's something that I still marvel over- vpw, on his deathbed, supposedly wracked his memory, looking for some incident or action whereby he displeased God Almighty. He was unable to find one- despite the molestations, druggings, rapes, plagiarism, simony, gluttony.....
Personally, I feel that the self centered satanic doctrines that wierwille followed produce a complete lack of empathy or sympathy. They clearly sear one's conscience. The occult is all about fulfiling the lusty desires of the flesh to the fullest. It's all about the stongest survive and thrive. Their beliefs include "do unto others as they do unto you"...."If someone smite you on one cheek smash him on the other...blow for blow...scorn for scorn"...and it goes on down the line. What you see in wierwille at the end of his life is a seared conscience, a man who was truly past feeling any remorse for his wrongs. Understand, that this type of thing happens incrementally. The boundaries get pushed little by little without a person realizing the boundaries are moving. At the end of the day the person following these occultic doctrines (whether garbed in Christian trappings or not) is blind to their own error and feels little to nothing for their actions. Cause none of it matters. There's no consequence in their minds. I was neck deep in this garbage. Thankfully, by the Lord's grace, I am delivered by Christ's works of forgiveness, healing and love.
Personally, I feel that the self centered satanic doctrines that wierwille followed produce a complete lack of empathy or sympathy. They clearly sear one's conscience. The occult is all about fulfiling the lusty desires of the flesh to the fullest. It's all about the stongest survive and thrive. Their beliefs include "do unto others as they do unto you"...."If someone smite you on one cheek smash him on the other...blow for blow...scorn for scorn"...and it goes on down the line. What you see in wierwille at the end of his life is a seared conscience, a man who was truly past feeling any remorse for his wrongs. Understand, that this type of thing happens incrementally. The boundaries get pushed little by little without a person realizing the boundaries are moving. At the end of the day the person following these occultic doctrines (whether garbed in Christian trappings or not) is blind to their own error and feels little to nothing for their actions. Cause none of it matters. There's no consequence in their minds. I was neck deep in this garbage. Thankfully, by the Lord's grace, I am delivered by Christ's works of forgiveness, healing and love.
The following passages in a few parallel versions reflect the same idea of wierwille being driven by his own lusts, influenced by satanic doctrines, lacking sympathy and empathy, and exploiting others:
New International Version Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.
~ ~ ~ ~
28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, a which he bought with his own blood. b29I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
New International Version The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
New Living Translation Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.
Amplified Bible But the [Holy] Spirit explicitly and unmistakably declares that in later times some will turn away from the faith, paying attention instead to deceitful and seductive spirits and doctrines of demons,
Doctrines of devils is NOT demonology – the study of the devil and demonic spirits – but rather it’s false teachings that originate from devils.
~ ~ ~ ~
New International Version Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
New Living Translation These people are hypocrites and liars, and their consciences are dead.
Amplified Bible [misled] by the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared as with a branding iron [leaving them incapable of ethical functioning]
~ ~ ~ ~
New International Version Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.II
Amplified Bible But we have renounced the disgraceful things hidden because of shame; not walking in trickery or adulterating the word of God, but by stating the truth [openly and plainly], we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.
1But [in those days] false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will subtly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways, and because of them the way of truth will be maligned. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with false arguments and twisted doctrine.
7Brothers and sisters, together follow my example and observe those who live by the pattern we gave you. 18For there are many, of whom I have often told you, and now tell you even with tears, who live as enemies of the cross of Christ [rejecting and opposing His way of salvation], 19whose fate is destruction, whose god is their belly [their worldly appetite, their sensuality, their vanity], and whose glory is in their shame--who focus their mind on earthly and temporal things.
That's something that I still marvel over- vpw, on his deathbed, supposedly wracked his memory, looking for some incident or action whereby he displeased God Almighty. He was unable to find one- despite the molestations, druggings, rapes, plagiarism, simony, gluttony.....
Then why did he wish he could have been the man he knew to be?
Does no one realize these two “poor me” statements are incongruent? The hands don’t fit the gloves.
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Nathan_Jr
It's not a matter of looking for them to find them. It's a matter of the flaws literally leaping off the page for anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear.
waysider
Well, at least that lady got the red drapes she wanted. So, there's that.
waysider
This isn't about who was and who wasn't in the Corps, it's about how VPW laced his doctrinal stew with ingredients culled from the occult. That story about a mother's fear being responsible for her li
Nathan_Jr
With victor only one is involved.
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Mike
Bingo.
And it is at this point that, for lack of knowledge and other personal reasons, I step aside from the discussion.
One of the big lessons I pull from the Dunning-Kruger Effect, is that it a good thing to investigate one's own knowledge limits.
Not everyone is able to do that, and often those that are able, don't.
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OldSkool
I feel one of the key traits from the occult that wierwille brought into his theology was a very, cold, impersonal representation of God. Check the language wierwille uses over and over again.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/appropriate
Scripture does not support this attitude of grabbing the things of God...like a greedy lil pig.
Philippians 2:6-8 Amplified Bible (AMP)
who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes—the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted [as if He did not already possess it, or was afraid of losing it]; but emptied Himself [without renouncing or diminishing His deity, but only temporarily giving up the outward expression of divine equality and His rightful dignity] by assuming the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men [He became completely human but was without sin, being fully God and fully man]. After He was found in [terms of His] outward appearance as a man [for a divinely-appointed time], He humbled Himself [still further] by becoming obedient [to the Father] to the point of death, even death on a cross.
One of the main common denominators that occultism brings to Christianity is it takes the true nature of Christitanity, which is relational, and makes it all very impersonal. The lies stack up quiclly from there. Instead of God being our Father and us his children God becomes a passive observer who has given it all to the ones with the most believing. Lies. Christianity is relationship based. God isn't a spiritual keg that we are to tap into. He is our loving heavenly Father who freely gives all things to his children. The power of God flows from the love of God which is always fellowship based. Jesus Chrsit himself is held up as an example in his exalted state. He bacame exalted by becoming a servant. Not appropriting, or grabbing anything.
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OldSkool
I don't blame you. Your lack of knowledge is glaring and your personal reasons are based in cognitive dissonance. Your idol is under attack...best step aside.
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OldSkool
Yeah....glaringly obvious personal reasons...
Granted, upon further investigation you bring up a very interesting parrallell between wierwille and Gurdjieff:
http://tonylutz.com/index.php/esoterica/fourth-way/critical-appraisal/item/184-gurdjieff-sexual-beliefs-and-practices
Gurdjieff’s personal sex life appears from all accounts to be complex and sometimes contradictory, with varied expressions throughout his life.
Critics have roundly condemned Gurdjieff’s sexual behaviour as irresponsible and contrary to the actions of an authentic spiritual teacher.
However, the issue of a sexual relationship between a spiritual teacher and his or her student(s) raises a number of important ethical questions:
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Nathan_Jr
How ironic. How hypocritical. Wow. Just wow.
Confirmation bias and a closed mind limit one’s own knowledge and ability to see clearly.
The observer is the observed. Not everyone is able to see this.
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OldSkool
But it's willful ignorance. He says he has a lack of knowledge but won't look at the knowledge that would help him understand fully just who and what victor paul wierwille truly was. He willfully remains ignorant that the doctrines he considers God breathed (PFAL, et. al.) are loaded with occultism.
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WordWolf
lcm got the idea for "athletes of the spirit" in college, where the expression was already in use in Christian organizations. It came up again after college because Glenn Clark, one of the people vpw plagiarized, and his "camps furthest out" (ripped off for camps, and other outdoorsy stuff) included "athletes of the spirit" also. (None of those words are uncommon in usage in the English language.)
When lcm saw the John Travolta film "Staying Alive", he got the idea to do the 2-hour production that greatly resembled some of the dance scenes in the movie. There is no need to look further for the inspiration.
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OldSkool
Athletes of the Spirit was required watching when i was chasing classes so I could go into the way corps. I was always intrigued by the unabashed corniness of men in tights meets dancing with the spirits in a sort of competition type thing. I still think it's comical that LCM felt inspired by Travolta...hey at least Travolta has the resources to keep his personal air plane...lol
I need to search around a little, but to me it's interesting that the way tries to link the entire concept (even though blantantly lifted as you pointed out) back to wierwilles crazy notion of athletes of the spirit from Ephesians 6. I seem to remember Penworks spilling the beans on how wierwille mashed his unscriptural POV into things and called it research. The way international is embarrased by athletes of the spirit and it's been memory holed, same with The way living in love, et al.
Along the lines of occultic influences though, it's intersting to me how fascinated the way international is with the adversary...I mean they elevate all the things the devil can do and then place silly limitations on God that aren't true in the least. Then they had us plauing spiritual football or whatever in the spiritual competition....yeah...
Ahh...the junk tables at the advanced class (AC). That was a red flag to me that I rationalized away. There were all those books on the occult that they put on display for people to peruse on break during the AC. I used to have some of the books. Students were alway firmly warned to stay away from reading those books on our own...they were too dangerous and wierwille had a special ministry where God brought him all those books so he could read them and teach us....kinda like Frodo was a ring bearer and the only one who could take the ring to mount doom....or whatever....I digress once again...lmao
Ill bet a dollar to a dime we were warned not to read those books because wierwille lifted material for the advanced class' devil spirit categories and other junk from those books and they didn't want people to figure it out. Kinda just took what tickled his ears and eyeballs.
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chockfull
This is called the Schrodinger effect. Is Mike really there on the thread? Or he’s not really there.
This theory has implications also with respect to the trinity doctrine.
Now is it time for me to disappear again lol ?
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T-Bone
That reminds me of the discerning of Schrodinger’s cat session at the Advanced Class
Is it possible for the cat to be possessed and not possessed at the same time?
Also, could double as a meme for burning the candle at both ends/chewing the box at both ends
I would like to see a porch pirate try to steal this Amazon package
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Mike
Well it’s difficult to step away, when you folks are struggling and wandering. But I am aiming at other new projects, and feel that most of my work here has been done.
Someone posted that Craig got “Athletes of the Spirit” from college Christian groups. That’s merely the title, though.
Gurdjieff’s ideas saturated Craig’s production. The big idea Craig got from him was to TEACH the principles with DANCE and MUSIC, specifically ballet. I don’t think any of that was involved in campus outreach groups.
Gurdjieff called his play “The Struggle of the Magicians” and it was developed in Moscow, Russia, where ballet story telling is a national sport, almost.
I was cued in to Craig getting his ideas from Gurdjieff in the SNT announcements he made each week as “Athletes of the Spirit” was being developed. Craig’s explanations as to why they were doing the production, and the effects of learning it was to have on all the dancers, closely matched Gurdjieff’s explanations in "In Search of the Miraculous" by Ouspenski.
Gurdjieff was also into body motions and their effects on consciousness, a kind of hybrid yoga. He specialized in super alertness and super attention to detail. I heard Craig expound on this, again on a SNT tape, that cued more of my Gurdjieff memories. Gurdjieff’s liberal use of emotional shocks also seems to have colored Craig’s attitudes to training.
My lack of experience in these matters, and especially in the details of the Way Corps training, tells me I best back out of this topic, though. As the Corps matured I was less and less interested in what went on in there, and I turned a deaf ear to lots of Corps talk in the 1980s. I have given pretty much all I know about this topic.
I think Gurdjieffian ideas, some good and some corrupt, were put into the Corps program and are likely still residing in many people from Corps background.
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OldSkool
Ya...you said all of this already....remember the parallels between gurdjieff and wierwille?
Gurdjieff’s personal sex life appears from all accounts to be complex and sometimes contradictory, with varied expressions throughout his life.
Critics have roundly condemned Gurdjieff’s sexual behaviour as irresponsible and contrary to the actions of an authentic spiritual teacher.
However, the issue of a sexual relationship between a spiritual teacher and his or her student(s) raises a number of important ethical questions:
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Mike
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OldSkool
I said they were parallells. Not that there was a connection with either craig or wierwille. You introduced this gurdoff guy so show me where he was an influence of vpw. I showed that much with the people I listed.
troll-shonta-malakasetay
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T-Bone
Maybe Mike doesn’t realize all great cult-leaders think alike. Not in terms of “signature” tenets but in their methods of manipulation / indoctrination. For example. it’s been discussed on other threads the similarity of “management” tactics with Scientology and The Way International. I think it's the same thing with this Gurdjieff dude - from what I've been reading about his ways.
From my experience it seems to me concern for doctrine becomes secondary to everyone toeing the line. If purity of doctrine/correctly interpreting the Bible was the number priority of TWI, I would see an “evolution” in doctrine so to speak – an ongoing process of refinement…correction…updates…that's what the word “research” implies.
I remember LCM saying something along the lines of if someone ever finds something wrong in our doctrine, we change…but I’ve never seen that happen.
It’s the same old dogma – which in itself is both a litmus test to determine if you’re in the club – and prison guard to make sure you don’t escape.
I think all harmful and controlling cults are alike in that they optimize the bait-and-switch fraud. The bait they dangle out there to attract people are the attractive promises of their belief system. But once a person is hooked – the control tactics to keep them ensnared are basically the same.
I’m of the opinion that once the particular cult’s mindset is embedded in a new recruit – it’s more or less irrelevant as to what the doctrines are, since through indoctrination the beliefs were accepted uncritically.
I've been reevaluating TWI doctrine ever since I left - for some 36 years now - and I'm embarrassed to admit how gullible I was to accept all the magical thinking, Gnosticism, spiritualism, fundamentalism and Scripture twisting in PFAL up through all the other classes including the Advanced Class.
I guess some would try to argue TWI is promoting Christian beliefs. I beg to differ. Pseudo-Christian cults like TWI hijack Bible verses to promote their insidious and exploitative agenda. It’s not about the Lordship of Jesus Christ in one’s personal convictions – it’s about cult-leaders lording it over you to assert a position of control…dominance…subjugation. “The Word of wierwille” takes the place of the lordship of Jesus Christ.
Check out some relevant hyperlinks below:
Psychology Today: Clues to what makes for a pathological cult leader
32 Bizarre Facts About Cults
When Christianity becomes a cult
6 Warning Signs of Religious Cults - these signs are red flags that a group has cult-like potential
What are some signs and practices of a cult?
Edited by T-Bonetypos
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OldSkool
Yeah...ditto...patent bullshonta. They are not interested in changing anything and have codified their errors as above reproach with the "proven ministry research" line that rosalie floated around when I was there. If it's proven ministry research it is above reproach.
I think you have an interesting point. You had me thinking back to my early days of chasing my fellowship coordinator around like he was some spiritual giant. Most TWI practices, the practice is taught first and then they throw some verses and some bs explanation to make it fit. Ive really seen that move on steroids when the the directors want to ressert control over an area of concern. They make a few statements, insert open ended scipture quotes that are out of context but can be used as a bat to push people into the practice they want to reassert.
Don't feel bad at all on that one. I was an occult practioner for around 8 years up until I met up with TWI. I then saw the same occult practices in the law of believing and made myself accept it with some BS excuses about da debil. I shoulda ran for the exits as soon as I noticed. Literally though, in most occult disciplines ( was involved in 4 over 8 years) involve concentrating on what you want to happen until it does. They employ charms, amulets, talismans, etc...now most occult disciplines believe that there is inherit power in these objects one of the main reasons they use them is to focus mental concentration. When I was really into voodoo I made a charm for generating income. I kept it in my wallet so everytime I opened my wallet I would be reminded to visualize money coming into my wallet. Sound familiar?
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OldSkool
This is an awesome point. He can readily observe the same errors VPW lived and taught in other cult leaders from other groups but not VPW/TWI. Mike is not-so-subtly trying to take the attention to craig martindale, this gurgendorf guy who has not connection, and the awful way corps that ruined everything st vic set in place. (I seem to remember somehwere...was it Passin of a Patriacrh?...where vic was blaming the way corps for everything going wrong?) Mike will do anything to get the attention off of VPW. Same with the way international. They let craig take the fall for all the rampant adultery and other sexual issues that were rampant in TWI when in reality it was victor paul wierwille that corrupted craig martindale. Not that craig didn't make it his own, but to let him take all the heat is dishonest as all get out.
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WordWolf
I'm sure OldSkool already knows this, but in case any of you want a reminder....
The occult stuff of vpw began pretty early in pfal (and TWLiL). vpw invented those 2 rich businessmen, and their claim to success was that they locked themselves away each day, sat in silence, and THOUGHT about prosperity, and it happened. There were never names nor specifics because these men were made up to "support" vpw's claims. Quotes to the Bible were light, because forcing a connection was tenuous at best, and there was no real connection between the verses and vpw's claims.
Then there was the "traveling salesman" who vpw "counseled" because the man was dwelling on a possible crash while driving. Again, vpw invented him to support his "believing in reverse" thing.
Finally, there was the woman who murdered her son. She dwelt on her fears, and those fears jumped up and killed her son. vpw didn't counsel her to stop before it was too late- because she was imaginary and she was there to reinforce how fear can hurt and kill by making things happen.
Satanist Anton LaVey would have agreed with vpw about thinking to change things. He said that magic was meant to make reality conform to will. That sounds like it's right out of pfal (except for the word "magic.")
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OldSkool
I had forgotten about his made up examples, thanks for introducing those into the mix! They are excellent examples of what I want to illustrate with this topic.
I have read the Satanic Bible many times over...well...at least up until around 1990 when I decided to never pick it up again. Lavey quoted Aleister Crawley in this case. The will of the magician is the center of the magician's universe in the occult. Then there is what Crawley basically set in stone across occult world "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". Basically, do whatever you want as long as you don't hurt anyone else. There is no right or wrong...sound like someone we know? Victor paul wierwille counselling his sexual victims to keep it all in the lockbox,....everything is ok as long as your believing is fine....yeah.
It's interesting the way these topics make me feel...I am so ashamed that I was involved in the occult...this isn't a comfortable topic and it's wierd exposing this side of my life. But I will hold nothing back and let my errors serve as a warning to others.
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WordWolf
In fairness, I probably quoted Crowley and named LaVey by accident. (It's not like I normally go around reading their stuff.)
It's interesting (to me, if no one else), that modern paganism uses the modified "An it hurt no one, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, " which adds the "don't hurt anyone" clause. So, college students experimenting with it for the first time know that you should start by knowing not to hurt people. It should be more than self-evident to anyone who's got at least a casual relationship with the Bible, as well.
Yet, some self-proclaimed "experts" in the Bible, self-proclaimed "Teachers" sometimes not only are fine hurting people as a matter of course, but later can't remember ever doing anything wrong. That's something that I still marvel over- vpw, on his deathbed, supposedly wracked his memory, looking for some incident or action whereby he displeased God Almighty. He was unable to find one- despite the molestations, druggings, rapes, plagiarism, simony, gluttony.....
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OldSkool
LaVey and most modern day occultist pull heavily from Crowley. So, it could be either and/or both that you quoted.
When I lived out in Hollywood I took a series of lectures/classes from an occultist named George Derby. (in 1992) He helped run an occult shop in Hollywood that is still in existence today, although they have moved locations.
Panpipes:
https://panpipes.com/
George Derby referenced here:
https://religionnews.com/2000/01/01/news-feature-hollywoods-sought-after-sorcerer-has-no-use-for-hocus-pocus/
One of Derby's understudies that I have no connection whatsoever:
http://voyagela.com/interview/meet-salvatore-n-santoro-crooked-path-burbank/
It was George Derby who added the clause "as long that it doesn't hurt anyone to the do as thou wilt quote from Crowley/LaVey, cause they both taught that junk. I don't know if Derby added it himself, if it was implied all along from Crowley to make it more palatable, or if someone else added and Derby quoted them. To be clear, as far as I know LaVey and Crowley didn't qualify that statement. So, in all actuality, to many people "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" has no niceness clause built into it the way I was taught. Also, Derby and I had no relationship other than me taking his classes and the times I talked to him when I was in Panpipes..which in 91/92 was often but we werent buddies.
Personally, I feel that the self centered satanic doctrines that wierwille followed produce a complete lack of empathy or sympathy. They clearly sear one's conscience. The occult is all about fulfiling the lusty desires of the flesh to the fullest. It's all about the stongest survive and thrive. Their beliefs include "do unto others as they do unto you"...."If someone smite you on one cheek smash him on the other...blow for blow...scorn for scorn"...and it goes on down the line. What you see in wierwille at the end of his life is a seared conscience, a man who was truly past feeling any remorse for his wrongs. Understand, that this type of thing happens incrementally. The boundaries get pushed little by little without a person realizing the boundaries are moving. At the end of the day the person following these occultic doctrines (whether garbed in Christian trappings or not) is blind to their own error and feels little to nothing for their actions. Cause none of it matters. There's no consequence in their minds. I was neck deep in this garbage. Thankfully, by the Lord's grace, I am delivered by Christ's works of forgiveness, healing and love.
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T-Bone
The following passages in a few parallel versions reflect the same idea of wierwille being driven by his own lusts, influenced by satanic doctrines, lacking sympathy and empathy, and exploiting others:
New International Version
Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.
~ ~ ~ ~
28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, a which he bought with his own blood. b 29I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
Acts 20 NIV (biblehub.com)
~ ~ ~ ~
New International Version
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
New Living Translation
Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.
Amplified Bible
But the [Holy] Spirit explicitly and unmistakably declares that in later times some will turn away from the faith, paying attention instead to deceitful and seductive spirits and doctrines of demons,
Doctrines of devils is NOT demonology – the study of the devil and demonic spirits – but rather it’s false teachings that originate from devils.
~ ~ ~ ~
New International Version
Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
New Living Translation
These people are hypocrites and liars, and their consciences are dead.
Amplified Bible
[misled] by the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared as with a branding iron [leaving them incapable of ethical functioning]
~ ~ ~ ~
New International Version
Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. II
2 Corinthians 4 NIV (biblehub.com)
Amplified Bible
But we have renounced the disgraceful things hidden because of shame; not walking in trickery or adulterating the word of God, but by stating the truth [openly and plainly], we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.
2 Corinthians 4 Amplified Bible (biblehub.com)
~ ~ ~ ~
1But [in those days] false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will subtly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways, and because of them the way of truth will be maligned. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with false arguments and twisted doctrine.
2 Peter 2 Amplified Bible (biblehub.com)
~ ~ ~ ~
7Brothers and sisters, together follow my example and observe those who live by the pattern we gave you. 18For there are many, of whom I have often told you, and now tell you even with tears, who live as enemies of the cross of Christ [rejecting and opposing His way of salvation], 19whose fate is destruction, whose god is their belly [their worldly appetite, their sensuality, their vanity], and whose glory is in their shame--who focus their mind on earthly and temporal things.
Philippians 3 Amplified Bible (biblehub.com)
~ ~ ~ ~
FYI: Thought I’d use a certain Grease Spotter’s “bottoms up” approach…a dubious little delight from the NT canon thread
Edited by T-Bonerevision
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Nathan_Jr
Then why did he wish he could have been the man he knew to be?
Does no one realize these two “poor me” statements are incongruent? The hands don’t fit the gloves.
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