Wierwille and his Occultic Influences

[OldSkool]

2 Corinthians 6:15: And what concord hath Christ with Belial? 

It's well known that victor paul wierwille had a plethora of people where he pulled his information.

For the record, before I became a Christian, I was heavily involved in the occult. By occult I mean:

- black magic

- voodoo

- Santeria

- Kabbalah (Jewish mystiscism)

So when I learned about the law of believing in TWI I immediately recognized the same principles I used in my occultic practices interwoven into wierwille's brand of Christianity. Of course , my former waybrained self, I just decided that the adversary had stolen godly principles and mixed them with the occult. I have come to realize that wierwille pulled heavily from people who were involved with the occult. Much of what he utilized/stole was from sources who had already intermixed trancendatilism/metaphysics/mesmerism/etc. into Christianity. It seems the source of this occult infiltration into Christianity comes from the Word of Faith movement, which traces it's roots to New Thought beliefs that go all the way back to the late 1800s. Obviously, this sort of thing has been happening since the inception of Christianity with Gnostiscism, of which Alexandria, Egypt was a stronghold taking these roots straight back to the first century. Im going to post up some links for discussion. 

Law of Believing

OldSkool's 2cents: https://cloud.disroot.org/s/o2n6WBFDT3BNnSQ

John Jeudes: http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rsr_lawbelieve.htm

 

Some of Wierwille's heros. 

Phineas Parkhurst Quimby - New Thought (discussed in Oldskool's 2cents - wierwille never dropped his name to my knowledge but the influence of this man on all things wierwille is huge)

E.W. Kenyon - New thought (discussed in Oldskool's 2cents) 

EW Bullinger - Gematria - I need to look into Bullinger further, but for to include Gematria into scripture is extremely deceptive on his part and very likely points to Kabbalistic influences

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/number17.htm#287

https://occult-world.com/gematria/

Albert Cliffe - According to Cliffe, attainment of this goal is aided by the impersonal Christ force indwelling every human being. Since "there is no death"(9) a person simply goes to "that plane of thought which you have prepared for yourself" which can loosely be termed "heaven" or "hell."(10) Cliffe's pantheistic viewpoint combats Scripture, promoting man from sinful creature to a microcosm of the "Creator." These a-Christian beliefs have been marketed for centuries by mystics and occultists, often under the thin disguise of Christian terminology which Cliffe favors.    http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rsr_lawbelieve.htm

Rufus Mosley - Christian Science https://www.truthunity.net/people/rufus-moseley He found footing for his spiritual journey through Ralph Waldo Emerson and other Transcendentalist writers, whom he quotes dozens of times in his autobiography, Manifest Destiny

Glen Clark - http://www.glennclark.wwwhubs.com/

Karl Barth, Paul Tillich, and Richard and Reinhold Niebuhr: Barth, Tillich and Niebuhr considered the New Testament to be full of fictional myths, and rejected basic Christian beliefs such as the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. Tillich’s writings suggest he was pantheistic and even atheistic. From: http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_bioCoverup.htm

For further reading: https://www.equip.org/PDF/JAW755-1.pdf

[Mike]

5 hours ago, OldSkool said:

So when I learned about the law of believing in TWI I immediately recognized the same principles I used in my occultic practices interwoven into wierwille's brand of Christianity. Of course , my former waybrained self, I just decided that the adversary had stolen godly principles and mixed them with the occult. I have come to realize that wierwille pulled heavily from people who were involved with the occult.

 

I think VPW made a lot of human mistakes and I know for sure he sinned.  The First Epistle of John tells me he sinned, and Romans 7 tells me he sinned.

I was never of the opinion that he was a saint in the Roman Catholic sense. I knew that was phony baloney.  I saw oodles of grads who exuded the attitude of great worship toward VPW, and that they felt his only sin could be tiny fibs and maybe stealing nickel candy bars at the dime store; small stuff.

But that’s not the way life works.  When someone is in his kind of position, the adversary brings out his most subtle of temptations, counterfeited to appear like tough love from the Father.  Before my first year in the Word was over I heard VPW live at Rock’72 say that he was no goodie-goodie.   But that didn’t deter many of his worshipers from thinking he only had a few candy bar wrappers in his closet.

*/*/*/*/*
 

In 1977 I heard VPW admit before 100 witnesses that the whole PFAL’77 project to replace PFAL'68 was not of God.  He seemed very embarrassed and angry at himself for getting talked into the project, and hadn’t properly consulted God, and that this human mistake was in the sin category.

My best understanding of VPW’s legacy is that the production of the printed collaterals was constantly being fine-tuned, and in alignment with God.  I also think the WoW Program had some excellent points.  But when it comes to the Way Corps and VPW’s handling of upper leadership as the ministry grew mega, I think he made LOTS of human errors and this was an area where he was tempted the most to sin.

I know many Way Corps graduates who are fine people, and they seem to have filtered out a lot of the errors that crept into the Corps program. But there were also a lot of Corps Nazi types that came out of that program, and I saw little action from the good ones against the bad ones.   Some of the worst characters I ever had to work with came from that tattered program.

*/*/*/*/*/*

VPW was fully up front and honest about his hooky-pook research and how he got good stuff from the occult.

OldSkool, you got it right a long time ago, as I see you wrote above:
“So when I learned about the law of believing in TWI I immediately recognized the same principles I used in my occultic practices interwoven into wierwille's brand of Christianity. Of course , my former waybrained self, I just decided that the adversary had stolen godly principles and mixed them with the occult.”

I fully believe that old opinion of yours OldSkool, and would ADD to it that over the centuries the adversary would plant bad ideas into Christianity to weaken it.   So the adversary stole good info from Christians, and replaced it with bad. Then he gave his groups the good info to use and gain advantage.

*/*/*/*/*

Again, in my first year in the Word, I had a personal conversation with VPW about one particular occult movement from which he got some good information. I have tried to talk to GSC folks about this for some time.  Finally, a thread appeared about it a few months ago.

At Rock’72 I brought a book with me. It was a hooky-pook book that I was into and had been fascinated by titled “In Search of the Miraculous” by P.D. Ouspensky and it was about the famous guru, George Ivanovich Gurdjieff. 

I was deeply into these two guys, and my college roommate was also. They are a secretive group, so it took me a long time to find them.  I was commuting to job in NYC at the time as a traveling repairman for Western Union. It gave me freedom to search all kinds of obscure and occult bookstores.  By asking the right people the right questions I finally found the secret Gurdjieff group.  My roommate, who lived in NYC, immediately joined the group. Meanwhile, out on Long Island where I lived, 3 hippie chicks were witnessing to me about the PFAL class.  

Today my roommate is still with them. He says he got to know comedian Bill Murry who is also a member. Many famous people over the decades have revealed that they follow Gurdjieff, Ouspenski or a few others connected with them.  It is similar to how Tom Cruise is a champion for Scientology, except that Gurdjieff and Ouspenski had a head start 100 years ago, have many more members, and are secretive and hardly known at all, outside academics and intelligencia.  I heard about them from Baba Ram Dass.

Gurdjieff was notorious for his rough tactics.  I see this as his counterfeit for how tough Jesus was at times with the Pharasees, and even with his apostles.  Gurdjief was all about his Corps program and classes and dicipline.  He was always trying to filter people OUT of the program with his tough tactics, called “shocks.”   He figured the ones who could handle it were the only ones he wanted to work with.

Again, this is like a counterfeit of how Jesus was tough. Gurdjieff had a reputation of being TOO rough, and going overboard at times with it.

I think VPW got some good from Gurdjieff, but some of the bad also snuck in there.

When I first got into the Word, I immediately spotted the Gurdjieff influences in VPW, and that told me to be cautious about him.  I was also alarmed at how many people were worshiping VPW.

I suspect many here at GreaseSpot were in that category, and were extra embittered by the revelations after 1986 that he REALLY was not a goodie-goodie.

I too was disappointed, and somewhat embittered. But because I did not have years of VPW worship under my belt to drive me crazy, and I got over it.  I learned to separate the good from TWI and PFAL from the bad. It took a few years, between 1986 and 1998 to do this.  I did not commit to the collaterals until 1998.

So, for any real self-deprogramming of the rotten parts of the Corps program where VPW went too far with "Gurdjieffian shocks," it might be good to find the original sources of said corruptions. 

So, I knew VPW had a lot of Gurdjieff going in his ministry when I first took the class. It was for that reason I took the book with me I mentioned above to the Rock 1972.   When I showed VPW the book he said without hesitation “Oh!  I read that book!  That is a pretty good counterfeit, isn’t it?”  I smiled and nodded in agreement, and felt ready to go to my next item to question him on.

*/*/*/*/*/*

I think you folks should forget about finding flaws in the collaterals, and focus on all the techniques (and shocks) used in Way Corps training for being either imbalanced restorations of things stolen from Christianity centuries ago, versus being right-on, balanced restorations of Biblical principles.

In April of this year someone finally discovered Gurdjieff here and started a thread on him.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25206-george-ivanovich-gurdjieff-a-cult-leader/

Since I was never in the Corps, I will avidly watch (and not comment much) to see if anyone works this angle. 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Mike

[Nathan_Jr]

17 minutes ago, Mike said:

forget about finding flaws in the collaterals

It's not a matter of looking for them to find them. It's a matter of the flaws literally leaping off the page for anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear.

[So_crates]

17 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

I think VPW made a lot of human mistakes and I know for sure he sinned.  The First Epistle of John tells me he sinned, and Romans 7 tells me he sinned.

I was never of the opinion that he was a saint in the Roman Catholic sense. I knew that was phony baloney.  I saw oodles of grads who exuded the attitude of great worship toward VPW, and that they felt his only sin could be tiny fibs and maybe stealing nickel candy bars at the dime store; small stuff.

But that’s not the way life works.  When someone is in his kind of position, the adversary brings out his most subtle of temptations, counterfeited to appear like tough love from the Father.  Before my first year in the Word was over I heard VPW live at Rock’72 say that he was no goodie-goodie.   But that didn’t deter many of his worshipers from thinking he only had a few candy bar wrappers in his closet.

*/*/*/*/*
 

In 1977 I heard VPW admit before 100 witnesses that the whole PFAL’77 project to replace PFAL'68 was not of God.  He seemed very embarrassed and angry at himself for getting talked into the project, and hadn’t properly consulted God, and that this human mistake was in the sin category.

My best understanding of VPW’s legacy is that the production of the printed collaterals was constantly being fine-tuned, and in alignment with God.  I also think the WoW Program had some excellent points.  But when it comes to the Way Corps and VPW’s handling of upper leadership as the ministry grew mega, I think he made LOTS of human errors and this was an area where he was tempted the most to sin.

I know many Way Corps graduates who are fine people, and they seem to have filtered out a lot of the errors that crept into the Corps program. But there were also a lot of Corps Nazi types that came out of that program, and I saw little action from the good ones against the bad ones.   Some of the worst characters I ever had to work with came from that tattered program.

*/*/*/*/*/*

VPW was fully up front and honest about his hooky-pook research and how he got good stuff from the occult.

OldSkool, you got it right a long time ago, as I see you wrote above:
“So when I learned about the law of believing in TWI I immediately recognized the same principles I used in my occultic practices interwoven into wierwille's brand of Christianity. Of course , my former waybrained self, I just decided that the adversary had stolen godly principles and mixed them with the occult.”

I fully believe that old opinion of yours OldSkool, and would ADD to it that over the centuries the adversary would plant bad ideas into Christianity to weaken it.   So the adversary stole good info from Christians, and replaced it with bad. Then he gave his groups the good info to use and gain advantage.

*/*/*/*/*

Again, in my first year in the Word, I had a personal conversation with VPW about one particular occult movement from which he got some good information. I have tried to talk to GSC folks about this for some time.  Finally, a thread appeared about it a few months ago.

At Rock’72 I brought a book with me. It was a hooky-pook book that I was into and had been fascinated by titled “In Search of the Miraculous” by P.D. Ouspensky and it was about the famous guru, George Ivanovich Gurdjieff. 

I was deeply into these two guys, and my college roommate was also. They are a secretive group, so it took me a long time to find them.  I was commuting to job in NYC at the time as a traveling repairman for Western Union. It gave me freedom to search all kinds of obscure and occult bookstores.  By asking the right people the right questions I finally found the secret Gurdjieff group.  My roommate, who lived in NYC, immediately joined the group. Meanwhile, out on Long Island where I lived, 3 hippie chicks were witnessing to me about the PFAL class.  

Today my roommate is still with them. He says he got to know comedian Bill Murry who is also a member. Many famous people over the decades have revealed that they follow Gurdjieff, Ouspenski or a few others connected with them.  It is similar to how Tom Cruise is a champion for Scientology, except that Gurdjieff and Ouspenski had a head start 100 years ago, have many more members, and are secretive and hardly known at all, outside academics and intelligencia.  I heard about them from Baba Ram Dass.

Gurdjieff was notorious for his rough tactics.  I see this as his counterfeit for how tough Jesus was at times with the Pharasees, and even with his apostles.  Gurdjief was all about his Corps program and classes and dicipline.  He was always trying to filter people OUT of the program with his tough tactics, called “shocks.”   He figured the ones who could handle it were the only ones he wanted to work with.

Again, this is like a counterfeit of how Jesus was tough. Gurdjieff had a reputation of being TOO rough, and going overboard at times with it.

I think VPW got some good from Gurdjieff, but some of the bad also snuck in there.

When I first got into the Word, I immediately spotted the Gurdjieff influences in VPW, and that told me to be cautious about him.  I was also alarmed at how many people were worshiping VPW.

I suspect many here at GreaseSpot were in that category, and were extra embittered by the revelations after 1986 that he REALLY was not a goodie-goodie.

I too was disappointed, and somewhat embittered. But because I did not have years of VPW worship under my belt to drive me crazy, and I got over it.  I learned to separate the good from TWI and PFAL from the bad. It took a few years, between 1986 and 1998 to do this.  I did not commit to the collaterals until 1998.

So, for any real self-deprogramming of the rotten parts of the Corps program where VPW went too far with "Gurdjieffian shocks," it might be good to find the original sources of said corruptions. 

So, I knew VPW had a lot of Gurdjieff going in his ministry when I first took the class. It was for that reason I took the book with me I mentioned above to the Rock 1972.   When I showed VPW the book he said without hesitation “Oh!  I read that book!  That is a pretty good counterfeit, isn’t it?”  I smiled and nodded in agreement, and felt ready to go to my next item to question him on.

*/*/*/*/*/*

I think you folks should forget about finding flaws in the collaterals, and focus on all the techniques (and shocks) used in Way Corps training for being either imbalanced restorations of things stolen from Christianity centuries ago, versus being right-on, balanced restorations of Biblical principles.

In April of this year someone finally discovered Gurdjieff here and started a thread on him.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25206-george-ivanovich-gurdjieff-a-cult-leader/

Since I was never in the Corps, I will avidly watch (and not comment much) to see if anyone works this angle. 

 

So, it's real easy to claim abstractly that there was "good" in the ministry. Let's hear some specifics of this "good" you claim everybody's ignoring.

[T-Bone]

3 hours ago, Mike said:

But that’s not the way life works.  When someone is in his kind of position, the adversary brings out his most subtle of temptations, counterfeited to appear like tough love from the Father.    

that's it - shift the blame to "the adversary".  In the New Testament there are more warnings to beware of deceitful people - especially those who sneak into the church 

 

3 hours ago, Mike said:

My best understanding of VPW’s legacy is that the production of the printed collaterals was constantly being fine-tuned, and in alignment with God.  I also think the WoW Program had some excellent points.  But when it comes to the Way Corps and VPW’s handling of upper leadership as the ministry grew mega, I think he made LOTS of human errors and this was an area where he was tempted the most to sin.

said it before and I'll say it again - the way corps was wierwille's baby - he controlled it with an iron fist...you have never been - so you don't know what you're talking about ! My two years in residence was having PFAL drummed into my head...oh wait - you think PFAL is the gold standard. well now you know why the corps program was so fvcked up - it was based on PFAL

 

 

3 hours ago, Mike said:

I know many Way Corps graduates who are fine people, and they seem to have filtered out a lot of the errors that crept into the Corps program. But there were also a lot of Corps Nazi types that came out of that program, and I saw little action from the good ones against the bad ones.   Some of the worst characters I ever had to work with came from that tattered program.

I think you're in denial about your "father-n-the-word" being a control freak, plagiarizer, sexual predator, and pathological liar - so you demonize the way corps program THAT WAS HIS BABY!    

the reason it's all screwed up is because it was all based on fvcked up wierwille and his screwed-up ideology

Mike, Mike you're in denial bro'

 

3 hours ago, Mike said:

I fully believe that old opinion of yours OldSkool, and would ADD to it that over the centuries the adversary would plant bad ideas into Christianity to weaken it.    

yeah - well think about it - Jesus Christ is the head of the church - when there's cult-leaders that teach he's absent - they're doing the devil's work by teaching their own screwed up ideology - like PFAL   

  

 

3 hours ago, Mike said:

When I first got into the Word, I immediately spotted the Gurdjieff influences in VPW, and that told me to be cautious about him.  I was also alarmed at how many people were worshiping VPW.

I suspect many here at GreaseSpot were in that category, and were extra embittered by the revelations after 1986 that he REALLY was not a goodie-goodie.

I too was disappointed, and somewhat embittered. But because I did not have years of VPW worship under my belt to drive me crazy, and I got over it.  I learned to separate the good from TWI and PFAL from the bad. It took a few years, between 1986 and 1998 to do this.  I did not commit to the collaterals until 1998.   

instead of wimping out - commit to Jesus Christ as your lord instead of wierwille's collaterals...get rid of wierwille's screwed-up ideology.

 

Do you realize that you exhibit more loyalty to wierwille/ PFAL on Grease Spot than you do to Jesus Christ and the message of the gospel?

 

My God, man don't you even see how you've been tricked by wierwille the con artist.

 

3 hours ago, Mike said:

I think you folks should forget about finding flaws in the collaterals, and focus on all the techniques (and shocks) used in Way Corps training for being either imbalanced restorations of things stolen from Christianity centuries ago, versus being right-on, balanced restorations of Biblical principles.
In April of this year someone finally discovered Gurdjieff here and started a thread on him.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25206-george-ivanovich-gurdjieff-a-cult-leader/
Since I was never in the Corps, I will avidly watch (and not comment much) to see if anyone works this angle. 

you see - you're going off topic...and you don't know what you're talking about!

quit trying to deflect the blame...there's no angle to work...address this head on - way corps = wierwille's baby it's fvcked up because it's his baby - it's got his DNA! 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by T-Bone
revision

[Mike]

59 minutes ago, So_crates said:

So, it's real easy to claim abstractly that there was "good" in the ministry. Let's hear some specifics of this "good" you claim everybody's ignoring.

Let's NOT hear from me on this thread.

I want to see if anyone gets the occult influence on the Way Corps program from Gurdjieff.
Because I was not in the Corps, I want to disqualify myself from this topic.

[Mike]

17 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

    nothing

 

Please don't steer this thread in the direction of being about me.
Please stay on topic.

 

[So_crates]

1 minute ago, Mike said:

Let's NOT hear from me on this thread.

I want to see if anyone gets the occult influence on the Way Corps program from Gurdjieff.
Because I was not in the Corps, I want to disqualify myself from this topic.

Translation: I can't name anything good about the Way and Saint Vic, but I expect you to remember the unknown good, the good even I don't know.

[T-Bone]

22 minutes ago, Mike said:

Please don't steer this thread in the direction of being about me.
Please stay on topic.

 

I am...you're the one making excuses for wierwille and his $hitty doctrine...oh - you take it personal - it's not about you - it's about wierwille

are you channeling wierwille?

 

why do you get so agitated when someone rightfully criticizes wierwille and his devilish doctrines?

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by T-Bone
revision

[waysider]

Well, at least that lady got the red drapes she wanted. So, there's that.

[OldSkool]

9 hours ago, Mike said:

OldSkool, you got it right a long time ago, as I see you wrote above:
“So when I learned about the law of believing in TWI I immediately recognized the same principles I used in my occultic practices interwoven into wierwille's brand of Christianity. Of course , my former waybrained self, I just decided that the adversary had stolen godly principles and mixed them with the occult.”

No I didn't get that right, I was dead a$$ wrong and that's the point of me saying that I RATIONALIZED devilish doctrines intermixed into vicotor paul wierwille's teachings - I had to lie to myself. And you know what else? Once I fully realized how awful this garbage really is I repented - yes: I literally got on my knees and asked God for forgiveness. I was devestated because not only did I believe a lie, I taught others the same lies and that makes a person the LEAST in the Kingdom of my Lord! I asked for forgiveness and am making amends. Not that I need to add anything to what Christ accomplished, but Im posting this information here so others don't make the same mistakes. Mike - is your conscience seared with a hot iron? Do you feel anything when someone tells you that victor paul wierwille was doing the devils job for him? I know you feel a healthy sense of agitation but that's not your conscience that's cognitive dissonance.

 

9 hours ago, Mike said:

I fully believe that old opinion of yours OldSkool,

By your own words you admit you would rather believe a lie than believe the truth, even when its dead in front of your face. Tell me mike, why can't you discuss the actual material I posted? Trolling tactics? Or....Im taking a firm bet that the truth is extremely uncomfortable for you. The truth that makes you a gigantic hypocrit. You readily jump on GSC and critisscize, condemn, and complain about any Christian group besides the fake-Christian group you adhere. I.E.: Those awful trinitarians that are so deceived (loosely paraphrasing your words), yet they don't unknowingly follow and teach the occult in Christs name, yet, your father in the word conscisously included occultism (doctrines that have a person glorifying the devil 's doctrines in Christ's name) into his theology and you readily accept it and then rationalze it all away. You grab onto one sentence where I readily admit I was wrong and deceived and tell me I was right. Either deal with the material or quit all your bullshonta rationalizing. Wierwille was a false prophet. Deal with the evidence. Line by line. Show me with evidence - both Biblical and otherwise, where I am wrong. 

BTW - you do realize that if wierwille really walked for God the way he said he did God would have told him that he was mixing occultism into his package of garbage that had been known and understood in spades since the first century, and well before. That makes hims stupid. You try to say how stupid I am on other threads when I raise legitimate challenges to the garbage you interject, yet stupid lil ole me can easily identify occultic error in wierwilles trash teachings. He gets no respect from me cause he was a liar and a dullard, or a liar who INTENTIONALLY misled for his own greedy, base, gain. Yet - you are so intelligent you are asked to sit in with a group of neuroscientists for several years discussing deep intellectual matters...and yet you can't accept the plain truth and stumble at the most elementary Christian principles:

2 Corinthians 6:15: And what concord hath Christ with Belial? 

7 hours ago, Mike said:

Let's NOT hear from me on this thread.

I want to see if anyone gets the occult influence on the Way Corps program from Gurdjieff.
Because I was not in the Corps, I want to disqualify myself from this topic.

7 hours ago, Mike said:

Please don't steer this thread in the direction of being about me.
Please stay on topic.

 

 

This is a BS trolling tactic. First you come up with a multi-paragraph post of rationalizing bullshonta, then you try to forbid anyone from discussing the bullshonta you posted that never actually dicusses any points I posted on topic:  So - take a healthy dose of your own advice and stay on topic. Discuss the post I made. Dont talk around the post...cmon man...even your idol wierwille got tired of reading around the word and tossed all of his imaginary 3000 book library in the city dump...lmao...patent bullshonta.

Edited November 23, 2022 by OldSkool

[OldSkool]

9 hours ago, Mike said:

VPW was fully up front and honest about his hooky-pook research and how he got good stuff from the occult.

And you think this is alright? Do you not see how awful this is? There is no good stuff to be had from the devil. So, he knew and admitted he was pulling from the doctrines of devils and this is your idol? You prefer this idiot to the Lord Jesus Christ? No wonder Christ is absent to you.

 

9 hours ago, Mike said:

Again, in my first year in the Word,..............................

This entire Seinfeld-ish dialog is nothing more than a lame attempt to straw man your way out of this dllemma. It was the nazi-way corps...not it was...insert bullshonta reason here...deal with the fact that your idol was a false prophet who knowingly intermixed the occult into Christianity. Prove to me I am wrong. Dont you understand how egregious this sort of thing is to the Lord Jesus Christ? It's blasphemy on steroids! These doctrines cause REAL damage in the lives of those that believe the lies...but your fine with that.

My conscience is clear in this matter.

Edited November 23, 2022 by OldSkool

[chockfull]

8 hours ago, Mike said:

Let's NOT hear from me on this thread.

I want to see if anyone gets the occult influence on the Way Corps program from Gurdjieff.
Because I was not in the Corps, I want to disqualify myself from this topic.

Okay but the 10 page first post is not an action that supports your stated intent here.

From my perspective you have it twisted up about the Corps program.  There were some extreme zealots there.  But mostly it was a program where we studied the collaterals half the day and worked a job the other half.  There were some classes but not many.

But of course since you weren’t there you think it’s the training part that is the issue.

The irony is most everyone that went through the program pretty much has done what you think is the answer - focus on the collaterals.

From my perspective there is a lot less honest research work done reflected in the collaterals than virtually anything else you’ve read.  They are sermon notes picked over a hundred times to ensure that there is a foolish consistency like Emerson writes is the hobgoblin of little minds.

 

[chockfull]

15 hours ago, OldSkool said:

2 Corinthians 6:15: And what concord hath Christ with Belial? 

It's well known that victor paul wierwille had a plethora of people where he pulled his information.

For the record, before I became a Christian, I was heavily involved in the occult. By occult I mean:

- black magic

- voodoo

- Santeria

- Kabbalah (Jewish mystiscism)

So when I learned about the law of believing in TWI I immediately recognized the same principles I used in my occultic practices interwoven into wierwille's brand of Christianity. Of course , my former waybrained self, I just decided that the adversary had stolen godly principles and mixed them with the occult. I have come to realize that wierwille pulled heavily from people who were involved with the occult. Much of what he utilized/stole was from sources who had already intermixed trancendatilism/metaphysics/mesmerism/etc. into Christianity. It seems the source of this occult infiltration into Christianity comes from the Word of Faith movement, which traces it's roots to New Thought beliefs that go all the way back to the late 1800s. Obviously, this sort of thing has been happening since the inception of Christianity with Gnostiscism, of which Alexandria, Egypt was a stronghold taking these roots straight back to the first century. Im going to post up some links for discussion. 

Law of Believing

OldSkool's 2cents: https://cloud.disroot.org/s/o2n6WBFDT3BNnSQ

John Jeudes: http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rsr_lawbelieve.htm

 

Some of Wierwille's heros. 

Phineas Parkhurst Quimby - New Thought (discussed in Oldskool's 2cents - wierwille never dropped his name to my knowledge but the influence of this man on all things wierwille is huge)

E.W. Kenyon - New thought (discussed in Oldskool's 2cents) 

EW Bullinger - Gematria - I need to look into Bullinger further, but for to include Gematria into scripture is extremely deceptive on his part and very likely points to Kabbalistic influences

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/number17.htm#287

https://occult-world.com/gematria/

Albert Cliffe - According to Cliffe, attainment of this goal is aided by the impersonal Christ force indwelling every human being. Since "there is no death"(9) a person simply goes to "that plane of thought which you have prepared for yourself" which can loosely be termed "heaven" or "hell."(10) Cliffe's pantheistic viewpoint combats Scripture, promoting man from sinful creature to a microcosm of the "Creator." These a-Christian beliefs have been marketed for centuries by mystics and occultists, often under the thin disguise of Christian terminology which Cliffe favors.    http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rsr_lawbelieve.htm

Rufus Mosley - Christian Science https://www.truthunity.net/people/rufus-moseley He found footing for his spiritual journey through Ralph Waldo Emerson and other Transcendentalist writers, whom he quotes dozens of times in his autobiography, Manifest Destiny

Glen Clark - http://www.glennclark.wwwhubs.com/

Karl Barth, Paul Tillich, and Richard and Reinhold Niebuhr: Barth, Tillich and Niebuhr considered the New Testament to be full of fictional myths, and rejected basic Christian beliefs such as the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. Tillich’s writings suggest he was pantheistic and even atheistic. From: http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_bioCoverup.htm

For further reading: https://www.equip.org/PDF/JAW755-1.pdf

Thx for delving into the details.  I had no idea about the occult connection with so many of the names we would hear quoted by VP.

I did not come from this background so appreciate the detailed knowledge.

[waysider]

8 hours ago, Mike said:

Because I was not in the Corps, I want to disqualify myself from this topic.

This isn't about who was and who wasn't in the Corps, it's about how VPW laced his doctrinal stew with ingredients culled from the occult. That story about a mother's fear being responsible for her little boy's death? Straight out of the occult. The red drapes and camera analogy? Occult. "What you're confessing is what you're possessing."? Yep... occult. This isn't complicated. It's about as straightforward as you can get. And where will you find evidence of this stuff? Well, what do you know, right there in the collaterals. Oh, but wait a minute, I thought the collaterals were divinely inspired. Gimme a break.

[OldSkool]

30 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Thx for delving into the details.  I had no idea about the occult connection with so many of the names we would hear quoted by VP.

I did not come from this background so appreciate the detailed knowledge.

YW, sir. Just glad I can be of service.

[T-Bone]

Shortly after I left TWI, I read two fascinating books (links below – note some are newer editions than the ones I have); fyi I got more out of the 2^nd one Beyond Seduction because the author got into the health and wealth gospel, law of believing, positive affirmations:

 The Seduction of Christianity: Spiritual Discernment in the Last Days by Dave Hunt & T.A. McMahon

Beyond Seduction: A Return to Biblical Christianity by Dave Hunt

[Mike]

5 hours ago, OldSkool said:

This is a BS trolling tactic. ... then you try to forbid anyone from discussing the bullshonta you posted that never actually dicusses any points I posted on topic:  So - take a healthy dose of your own advice and stay on topic.

Everyone has had a chance to discuss all these things with me for years.

You, OldSkool, brought up cultist influence in TWI.   I brought up an angle of this that no one here has seriously looked into. THAT is on topic.  I included many details.  Quit trying to look a gift horse in the mouth.

I made a mistake in my long post above.  VPW was not fully honest about ALL his sources.  He never once, that I know of, mentioned Gurdgieff or any vocabulary or facts that could connect anyone to him.  I could quickly recognize enough of the attitudes and ideas of Gurdjieff in VPW, so that is why I brought that book to the Rock and asked him about it.  It was while I was studying Gurdjieff that I attended my first fellowship, so Gurdjieff was super fresh in my mind.

I have never once heard word one from ANY ministry people about Gurdjieff. 

I tried to talk about him here over the years, but no one could hear it.

So you folks have gone over all the other cultic influences, but you skipped Gurdjieff, who may have been the biggest. 

It was the Gurgjieffian system that seemed to penetrate the Corps program. Gurdjieff's trip was about overriding emotion with discipline.  He used emotional shocks on his students. None of this stuff filtered down to the class, though, except for the required payment for it.  I think, in turn, VPW's leadership picked up on this and also made mistakes, sending waves through.

Craig obviously read Gurdjieff and got the idea of teaching with ballet for Athletes of the Spirit from him. That is as close as Gurdjieff came to the surface in the ministry.

Gurdjief's most negative legacy were the "shocks" that were part of his system.  He often overdid it and people got hurt, some physically.

I think a lot of healthy unraveling of Corps bad attitudes and bad techniques can happen when you understand the sources of what went wrong.

 

[Nathan_Jr]

11 minutes ago, Mike said:

VPW was not fully honest

Captain Obvious

 

12 minutes ago, Mike said:

So you folks have gone over all the other cultic influences, but you skipped Gurdjieff, who may have been the biggest. 

It was the Gurgjieffian system that seemed to penetrate the Corps program. Gurdjieff's trip was about overriding emotion with discipline.  He used emotional shocks on his students. None of this stuff filtered down to the class, though, except for the required payment for it.  I think, in turn, VPW's leadership picked up on this and also made mistakes, sending waves through.

L. Ron Hubbard was more influential than Gurdjeff on VPW. 

[OldSkool]

23 minutes ago, Mike said:

You, OldSkool, brought up cultist influence in TWI.   I brought up an angle of this that no one here has seriously looked into. THAT is on topic.  I included many details.  Quit trying to look a gift horse in the mouth.

Brother, this topic is about victor paul wierwilles doctrinal sources, and how they influenced him to the point of being a blind leader leading people into Christian witchcraft. His doctrines are polluted - including but not limited to PFLAP.

If you wanna include Gurdjieff, then show his doctrinal incluences. Cause whatever you think happened with the corps program, craig, Gurdjieff and how many lawn geese are actually in New Knoxville are 

 

[So_crates]

26 minutes ago, Mike said:

Everyone has had a chance to discuss all these things with me for years.

So we're back to your tired old tactic, I addressed this before. If you addressed this before please link to your said discussion. Once again, you claim there are "good" things with The Way and Saint Vic, what are they? You opened the can, now spill the beans?

 

32 minutes ago, Mike said:

You, OldSkool, brought up cultist influence in TWI.   I brought up an angle of this that no one here has seriously looked into. THAT is on topic.  I included many details.  Quit trying to look a gift horse in the mouth.

Who designated you the on topic Nazi?

[waysider]

47 minutes ago, Mike said:

You, OldSkool, brought up cultist influence in TWI. 

Hiya, Mike.

 

Uhhm....You do know that cult and occult aren't the same thing, right?

[Nathan_Jr]

4 minutes ago, waysider said:

Hiya, Mike.

 

Uhhm....You do know that cult and occult aren't the same thing, right?

You beat me to it, Waysider. 
 

https://digitaloccultlibrary.commons.gc.cuny.edu/cults-and-the-occult/
 

[T-Bone]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

Everyone has had a chance to discuss all these things with me for years.
You, OldSkool, brought up cultist influence in TWI.   I brought up an angle of this that no one here has seriously looked into. THAT is on topic.  I included many details.  Quit trying to look a gift horse in the mouth.I made a mistake in my long post above.  VPW was not fully honest about ALL his sources.  He never once, that I know of, mentioned Gurdgieff or any vocabulary or facts that could connect anyone to him.  I could quickly recognize enough of the attitudes and ideas of Gurdjieff in VPW, so that is why I brought that book to the Rock and asked him about it.  It was while I was studying Gurdjieff that I attended my first fellowship, so Gurdjieff was super fresh in my mind.

Well maybe because there is no connection between wierwille and Gurdjieff !       

 

2 hours ago, Mike said:

I have never once heard word one from ANY ministry people about Gurdjieff. 

I tried to talk about him here over the years, but no one could hear it.

So you folks have gone over all the other cultic influences, but you skipped Gurdjieff, who may have been the biggest.    

   It’s hilarious how much you’re pushing this.   

I wonder – are you an avid contributor on QAnon / 4Chan forums? Seems like you’re wasting your time here. Are you bored? did you get laid off by Q Anon?   

Hey, I’ve got an idea

Back up and punt!

And by that, I mean quit acting like an incessant troll,

ditch the duplicity,

don’t hide behind little trolling bi+ch  antics

man up and YOU start a thread about   George Gurdjieff     (look I even gave you a link so you can do some homework    )  and YOUR theory of a wierwille connection

and STAY on topic.

2 hours ago, Mike said:

It was the Gurgjieffian system that seemed to penetrate the Corps program. Gurdjieff's trip was about overriding emotion with discipline.  He used emotional shocks on his students. None of this stuff filtered down to the class, though, except for the required payment for it.  I think, in turn, VPW's leadership picked up on this and also made mistakes, sending waves through.

Craig obviously read Gurdjieff and got the idea of teaching with ballet for Athletes of the Spirit from him. That is as close as Gurdjieff came to the surface in the ministry.

Gurdjief's most negative legacy were the "shocks" that were part of his system.  He often overdid it and people got hurt, some physically.

I think a lot of healthy unraveling of Corps bad attitudes and bad techniques can happen when you understand the sources of what went wrong.
 

You’re terrible at being an armchair analyst of the way corps program for several reasons:

You don’t know what you’re talking about        

You have never been in the corps        

You obviously have an ax to grind – for whatever selfish reasons that drive your trolling actions  - one of which is probably blaming the way corps as a scapegoat for whatever is screwed up with TWI – it’s a distraction to protect your precious wierwille / PFAL   

You’re grabbing at straws for what you think might neutralize criticism levied at wierwille – but you’re too obvious in your intent to distract. Saying “Craig obviously read Gurdjieff” is pure speculation on your part. You don’t know! As a matter of fact, anyone can make a case for connecting cult-leaders to manipulative tactics – because harmful and controlling cult-leaders do tend to think alike.     

 

You need to reflect on the bed you’ve made here – you’ve lost all credibility –   

the thrusts of most of your posts reveal you have more admiration for a lying-thieving-plagiarizing-control-freak-sexual-predator like wierwille than for the Lord Jesus Christ and the sanctity of His Church.  You ought to be ashamed - that's if you're even a Christian...I have my doubts.

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by T-Bone
revision

[OldSkool]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I could quickly recognize enough of the attitudes and ideas of Gurdjieff in VPW, so that is why I brought that book to the Rock and asked him about it.  It was while I was studying Gurdjieff that I attended my first fellowship, so Gurdjieff was super fresh in my mind.

Granted, upon further investigation you bring up a very interesting parrallell between wierwille and Gurdjieff:

http://tonylutz.com/index.php/esoterica/fourth-way/critical-appraisal/item/184-gurdjieff-sexual-beliefs-and-practices

Gurdjieff’s personal sex life appears from all accounts to be complex and sometimes contradictory, with varied expressions throughout his life.

• At times he was celibate, at other periods highly sexually charged.
• He fathered numerous children out of wedlock, including many with his own female disciples.

Critics have roundly condemned Gurdjieff’s sexual behaviour as irresponsible and contrary to the actions of an authentic spiritual teacher.

• But teachers in many other spiritual traditions have engaged in exactly the same kind of sexual behaviour.²
• The notion that spiritual masters must always be celibate and beyond the “base desires of earthly sexuality” is clearly an idealized myth and not congruent with reality.

However, the issue of a sexual relationship between a spiritual teacher and his or her student(s) raises a number of important ethical questions:

• Is a sexual relationship between a teacher and student harmful or beneficial from a spiritual perspective?
• Is there an imbalance of power between teacher and student that compromises the authentic expression of a loving relationship between two equal partners?
• Is it possible to separate an intimate sexual relationship from an objective impersonal transmission of spiritual knowledge?