Determinism and the Illusion of Free Will

[Charity]

20 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Mike is his own case study on how one can expect people from the way international to respond when they are faced with civil disagreement. I remember well what it was like to be so dang convinced that I am absolutely 100% correct on most things to do with the Bible, and by golly, the way international provided air tight "research"...yeah...they call it proven ministry research indicating that the topics are above question. Proven ministry research is considered absolute truth.

Such an arrogant position.

So typically, and we see it with mike, when one debates with someone blinded by wierwille-ism they almost always resort to bullying tactic, (ad-hominem attacks, passive agressive insults, even loud and boisterous yelling and screaming like a spoiled child, etc) if they can't dominate the conversation and browbeat those they debate with into submission. So when confronted with the illogic and gaping holes in wierwille's materials they come to a crossroads: give in to the cognitive dissonance caused by wierwille's doctrines and what the Bible actually teaches and run like h377 back to wierwille's doctrines or they can actually turn aside and consider other's points of view. Should this honest route be chosen then they would do as the Bereans and search the scriptures daily whether these things are so. Mike, et al., typically choose the run to wierwille route and resort to all sorts of slanderous insults, playing the victim, etc. Why the animosity? Because they are caught in an us verses them mentality that the way international builds into their adherants. Without the us verses them schtik the wierwille's entire story falls apart on yet another front....I mean it's allready falllen apart on so many angles, I guess another set of stress fractures won't hurt anything.

Mike's word choices and several posts he put up today absolutely reek with an attitude of superiority and it's obvious he thinks everone who posts here is posessed, living in outer darkness, or whatever imagined scary scenario exists outside of the way international. Cult mentality, then they have their own jargon and way speak that makes little sense outside of a home fellowship where most people throw way speak around to each other as if actually makes any sense to begin with. 

Thanks the Lord Jesus Christ that he has delivered me from the way international and their toxic doctrines that hide Christ and elevate a drunken, narcissistic, idol that they choose instead of Christ.

 

Thanks OldSkool - you brought up so many poignant points and truths about twi and their hold on people.  One can see from your post how great our deliverance was once leaving this cult. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Charity

[OldSkool]

3 hours ago, Mike said:

Ocean of Doubt

Actual pic of grease spotters going over the edge of the ocean of doubt....

 

Personally, I prefer surfing the ocean of doubt...the following pic is me and Chockful last vacation to the ocean of doubt...

 

Everytime I goto the ocean of doubt Im always looking for the last resort...

 

 

Fun place to vacation...next year Im thinking of going to Ostrich Beach....was there many moons ago when I was in the way international...the following is an actual picture of me and my fellowship searching truth out of the pflap and the collaterals.

[Nathan_Jr]

1 hour ago, Charity said:

I really like how you spoke about the ocean.  Being in or nearby any body of water has been a soothing place for me.  Your connecting it to what truth is was notable.  And that's why I find it a problem being too focused on just one thing like a Bible class (pfal) or what one person says about the Bible (collaterals) or in looking at scriptures through the lens of what one man taught (vp) - it is so confining when one truly wants to understand how immense God is.   

It's beyond beleeef.

[Nathan_Jr]

Doctrine is not fruit.

Beleeef is not Truth.

[Nathan_Jr]

Mike  "The truths in PFAL are true no matter how rotten VPW's old man nature was."
 

 

The countless errors in PFAL are demonstrably erroneous no matter what one beleeeves.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Nathan_Jr

[OldSkool]

17 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Mike  "The truths in PFAL are true no matter how rotten VPW's old man nature was."

Mike compartimentalizes as well as rationalizes to no end. He speaks of VPW's old man nature as if it's seperate from the man himself. Wierwille's job is the same as any Christian, crucify or put to death the old man with his deeds and walk in newness of life, the new man, etc. Be led of the Spirit. Had wierwille lived a virtous life we wouldnt have a GS cafe. Ill say it again for those in the back: Church leaders, Reverends, clergy, pastors, whatever title you wanna choos all have the responsibility to set the example of what they teach by how they live. The exmaple wierwille set was one of satisfying the flesh: living on donations, excess drinking/drunkeness, molesting and seducing young women as well as married women all the while he had his own wife, stole most all of his materials from others, etc. Mike acts like its our fault because we noticed.

[WordWolf]

4 hours ago, Mike said:

I've seen your (and others') piddly offerings, which are no more than suggestions that alt-vpw doctrines should be considered.  These are simple contradictions of what we were taught in PFAL, and have NOTHING to offer, except to shelter vpw-phobes.

You basically have NOTHING solid offer, and think that the Ocean of Doubt is a nice place to be. 

Comparatively speaking, what you all can offer may very well be a little better than whatever garbage held you into the crazy confines of TWI-2 and/or TWI-3, but no thanks.  I spent too many years in that wandering menagerie before finding PFAL in my hippie days.

If you want specifics of the fruit in my life, you will need to become meek.

Not much chance of that, but otherwise you can't receive it from me.  Let me know if that meekness thing ever happens again in your life. It certainly aint happening now.  You can't hide your lust to find fresh Gotcha hooks in my testimony to hang your doubting denouncements on.

Why should I tell you, anyway?  I don't need to mention the benefits of PFAL to the reading folks at home, because it they already enjoying them themselves, the readers that I target. 

 

 

A) On lots of threads, lots of ex-twi have talked about how much better their lives have been since twi, and sometimes about how God's given them results since twi.   Mike has missed all of that- probably for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman.

B) I don't need specifics of Mike's testimony, since he's already given me the biggest detail.  In spite of a recent attempt to spin-doctor it, Mike started a thread with the goal of answering the question "Why don't we see miracles and lots of prayers answered anymore?"  If it was a thread where the opening post was "actually, we see EVEN MORE", then that would be different.   So, no, he's got squat.

C) Mike's been trying to claim that Session 1 of pfal- and the books adapting it- didn't have vpw bring up material abundance and promise material abundance...  despite the fact that they do, very obviously and blatantly.    Someone's looking to LOWER THE BAR OF EXPECTATIONS.

So, what's the complete picture?    Lots of people have happiness, some prosperity, and answers to prayers-  and Mike insists they don't.   Mike's got little of those- and insists on getting cagey in discussing them.  Where others have freely given testimony, he's said we have to earn his testimony- which, again, means he's got squat, otherwise he's be waving it around as proof his doctrine isn't all platitudes, smoke and mirrors.    Mike's trying to say his alleged "pfal" doctrine isn't supposed to guarantee MATERIAL ABUNDANCE (in spite of insinuating exactly that all over Session 1)- because Mike doesn't have it and can't guarantee it despite himself. 

What's next- the holy Amway?

[Mike]

3 hours ago, chockfull said:

My life is way better off without TWI.

I can believe that. 

TWI-1 outside Corps supervision was wonderful and helpful to me.  TWI-2 was a dud, and so was TWI-3.  I am actually enjoying giving TWI-4 a helping hand, but I see then still need some wobbles corrected they inherited from past administrations.

ALL of the fruit in my life from PFAL came from unsupervised TWI-1 and my rich exposure to tapes and collaterals and especially heavy witnessing.  I loved witnessing. That's what I am doing here, basically.

*/*/*/*

I will try harder to re-aim my pejorative comments towards the quality of the ideas I reject.   That is my heart in all of this.

If you could point out one of my ad hominem comments aimed at you, I will treat it as a writing lesson and a repenting to go along with an apology.   I am honestly unaware of what you refer to there, and sleuthing it out takes a lot of time and brain power.  For you it should be easy to show me what you mean specifically.

I'm serious.  Old School and I have been trying to sharpen our aim away from each other. 

 

[Mike]

3 hours ago, Charity said:

I once stumbled across an old thread titled Are Grease Spotters "Possessed?"  There were some pretty humorous comments I enjoyed reading.

I don't doubt it, that grads can get the whole devil possession thing on a spectrum of plain wrong, to a bit nutty, to downright crazy.

We were taught that there are two way was the devils operates kingdoms of this world:  devil possession is one, and devil oppression is the other.

I find that a vast majority of grads I've talked to have totally forgotten about how OFTEN we ALL are OPPRESSED by devils in one way or another.  But the same grads gravitate to the process of direct possession, maybe because it gets better CGI in the movies?

Possession is relatively rare, while oppression is exceedingly common.

[Mike]

2 hours ago, Rocky said:

Isn't the truth rather that you don't know how to tell a coherent story?

That's just a pesky little truth-for-the moment, but wait till the re-write comes out.  We're stuck here now living in the first rough draft.  Patience. It's only temporary.

 

[waysider]

6 minutes ago, Mike said:

Possession is relatively rare, while oppression is exceedingly common.

Straight out of the Advanced class.

(Please don't make me look up the page number, I'm having a good day so far.)

[Mike]

45 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

accidental duplicate post

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Mike

[chockfull]

30 minutes ago, Mike said:

I can believe that. 

TWI-1 outside Corps supervision was wonderful and helpful to me.  TWI-2 was a dud, and so was TWI-3.  I am actually enjoying giving TWI-4 a helping hand, but I see then still need some wobbles corrected they inherited from past administrations.

ALL of the fruit in my life from PFAL came from unsupervised TWI-1 and my rich exposure to tapes and collaterals and especially heavy witnessing.  I loved witnessing. That's what I am doing here, basically.

*/*/*/*

I will try harder to re-aim my pejorative comments towards the quality of the ideas I reject.   That is my heart in all of this.

If you could point out one of my ad hominem comments aimed at you, I will treat it as a writing lesson and a repenting to go along with an apology.   I am honestly unaware of what you refer to there, and sleuthing it out takes a lot of time and brain power.  For you it should be easy to show me what you mean specifically.

I'm serious.  Old School and I have been trying to sharpen our aim away from each other. 

 

Just go read back any post that I quoted you in.  Every one where I refute ad hominem attacks and correct your statement is an ample example.

No I’m not going to repeat your bs accusations again here and give you more traction and visibility.  You mask generic statements regarding all of us on this site who participate while specifically talking to one person.

I mean you have OS last post with a visual depiction of your ad hominem attack.

No you can’t get out of your mouth writing checks you’re behind can’t cash by saying your general statements were really only to one person not me.

Your number labels don’t really mean much to me.  There were 20 years of some kind of TWI before your viewpoint labeled 1.  And like extreme dispensationalism I don’t agree with your “administration” divisions.

It is all “TWI Cult” regardless of your meaningless generational distinctions.  The only difference was in which Pharisee was in charge.  Every one of them taught the same doctrinal errors which I have amply pointed out.

Ex: Family faith is not active TWI involvement.  Faith / household is isolationist.  Doctrinal error leading to practical error - the eye saying to the hand I have no need of thee.

All leading to the extreme control of others by  zealous few who take no accountability or direction from anyone.

Edited May 9, 2023 by chockfull

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Doctrine is not fruit.

Beleeef is not Truth.

[waysider]

3 minutes ago, chockfull said:

It is all “TWI Cult” regardless of your meaningless generational distinctions.  The only difference was in which Pharisee was in charge.  Every one of them taught the same doctrinal errors which I have amply pointed out

Thumbs up.

[Mike]

3 hours ago, WordWolf said:

 

... Mike started a thread with the goal of answering the question "Why don't we see miracles and lots of prayers answered anymore?"

 

Late EDIT:

So sorry WW.  I was wrong on many points below.  Both my reading and writing were distorted. I’m glad I caught it after a rest.

Poetic License Excuse: I was lost in the jungle of nuances and memory.

 

 

Please tell me how I can call this a terrible distortion?

I see it as a diabolical lie.

Please go back to that thread and see it was not what is characterized above at all!   How could you get it so incorrect?

First of all I was comparing every day life's miracle density per unit time to be far less than we see in the Gospels, and asking why is that? 

Then it was a general discussion of a POSSIBLE answer to that question that I admitted up front and often that I was unsure of, and I was exploring the topic.

WordWolf, did you really miss my many comments to that effect at the beginning of the thread, as well as often popping up in the pages ???

Did you really miss that?

Surprise!   You may discover a lot more by re-visiting that thread:

https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25457-god’s-budget-and-double-doors-on-the-scarcity-of-miracles/

 

Enjoy.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Mike

[chockfull]

25 minutes ago, Mike said:

I don't doubt it, that grads can get the whole devil possession thing on a spectrum of plain wrong, to a bit nutty, to downright crazy.

We were taught that there are two way was the devils operates kingdoms of this world:  devil possession is one, and devil oppression is the other.

I find that a vast majority of grads I've talked to have totally forgotten about how OFTEN we ALL are OPPRESSED by devils in one way or another.  But the same grads gravitate to the process of direct possession, maybe because it gets better CGI in the movies?

Possession is relatively rare, while oppression is exceedingly common.

And from the same Adv class we have doggie porn and Myth of the 6 Million and all denominational heads are seed of the serpent.  Even seed of the serpent as a topic itself.

Those doctrines lead to exceedingly common experiences in both - oppression and possession.

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by chockfull

[Rocky]

 

[Nathan_Jr]

3 hours ago, Mike said:

We were taught that there are two way was the devils operates kingdoms of this world:  devil possession is one, and devil oppression is the other.

I find that a vast majority of grads I've talked to have totally forgotten about how OFTEN we ALL are OPPRESSED by devils in one way or another.

Oh, Irony. I see you. You don’t have to beg for attention, little girl. I know where you are. There, there. It’s ok. I know you’re restless. Let Daddy change out of his work clothes, then we’ll go for a walk.

 

The religious corporation (kingdom) invented by victor paul wierwille, which is based upon his “writings” and “sermons,” is easily the most physically, psychologically, intellectually and spiritually oppressive force I have ever known. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Nathan_Jr
Gloves

[T-Bone]

3 hours ago, Mike said:

 

Late EDIT:

 

 

So sorry WW.  I was wrong on many points below.  Both my reading and writing were distorted. I’m glad I caught it after a rest.

 

 

Poetic License Excuse: I was lost in the jungle of nuances and memory.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please tell me how I can call this a terrible distortion?

I see it as a diabolical lie.

Please go back to that thread and see it was not what is characterized above at all!   How could you get it so incorrect?

First of all I was comparing every day life's miracle density per unit time to be far less than we see in the Gospels, and asking why is that? 

Then it was a general discussion of a POSSIBLE answer to that question that I admitted up front and often that I was unsure of, and I was exploring the topic.

WordWolf, did you really miss my many comments to that effect at the beginning of the thread, as well as often popping up in the pages ???

Did you really miss that?

Surprise!   You may discover a lot more by re-visiting that thread:

https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25457-god’s-budget-and-double-doors-on-the-scarcity-of-miracles/

Enjoy. 

 

 

You participating in a general discussion of possible answers about anything - is NOT how I would characterize your posts on the God’s Budget thread.

It seems to me you are consistently combative and argumentative with any Grease Spotter who challenges your myopic views and confirmation bias.

Here is Mike disputing with another poster, Mike claiming wierwille did not usurp the Jesus Movement in early days of Rye NY > Mike's post on God's Budget April 27th 2023, 7:46 PM 

And on same thread here is  Mike's claim there's excellor's sessions in the gospels_God's Budget April 29th 2023, 9:05 PM

Which I challenged him to show where in the gospels are the Scripture to support his claim > here  ,  here  ,  here   ,    here  and Mike did not provide Scripture to support his claim.

 

[Nathan_Jr]

Mmmmmph

[Nathan_Jr]

We’ve veered far off track, but it’s been fruitful.

The original post explains the REAL topic. Here it is for the 2nd time. This establishes it. 
 

 

Mike wanted me to start this topic so he can do what he does.

What I want is to find out is who the other six "the men of god" are. Johniam said a music coordinator told him victor was "The 7th THE Man of God." Who is this music coordinator and who are the other six "THE Men of God"?

I'm happy to discuss determinism and the illusion of free will, as long a we get to the bottom of this T7TMOG thing. This goes to the heart of cult manipulation and cult leadership and what it means to be a cult.

 

•  

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Nathan_Jr

[chockfull]

14 hours ago, T-Bone said:

 

You participating in a general discussion of possible answers about anything - is NOT how I would characterize your posts on the God’s Budget thread.

It seems to me you are consistently combative and argumentative with any Grease Spotter who challenges your myopic views and confirmation bias.

Here is Mike disputing with another poster, Mike claiming wierwille did not usurp the Jesus Movement in early days of Rye NY > Mike's post on God's Budget April 27th 2023, 7:46 PM 

And on same thread here is  Mike's claim there's excellor's sessions in the gospels_God's Budget April 29th 2023, 9:05 PM

Which I challenged him to show where in the gospels are the Scripture to support his claim > here  ,  here  ,  here   ,    here  and Mike did not provide Scripture to support his claim.

 

Yes I reviewed that and 100 percent Mike is being an absolute meathead tool there basically denying that VP rode in on the wave of the Jesus movement then replaced two of the greatest catalyst members with his own Corpse (one was M0ynihan of the RnR group now).  At the same time he directly slanders me with ad hominem attacks.

This is factual knowledge not even opinion that elicits that BS response.

Mike I have been way more than patient with you in the face of lies, direct false accusations of my character and leadership and as hominem attacks mostly because you can’t handle your idol and his idol bookshelf coming under any question at all.

This is the perfect example of how a TWI mindset leads to the follower attacking other Christians.  It’s not even a peaceful coexistence it is an all out attack.

Mike acts a different way when talking to “silent lurkers” who he dreams agree with his wild and crazy assertions.

The funny thing is we just had one of those long time lurkers post here - Beguiled.  I kinda don’t think he agrees with Mikes antics in spite of Mikes delusional dreams about the God-breathed Plaffy class and associated notes typed second hand by the secretary.

Mike maybe it’s time to give up all this evil behavior and admit that the source of it is your golden calf idol image of PFAL and VPW.

 

[Nathan_Jr]

If witnessing PFAL and vpw collaterals bears so much fruit, why be involved with GSC, which Mike claims is of the devil?

Why engage with such devilishness? Do imagined future rewards exist for running races against spotters?

victor was hyper-focused on devil stuff. The devil seemed to get as much or more of his attention as God, as Love. This is a hallmark of religious fraudsters, because it is so easy to talk about the devil, but really quite difficult to talk about that which is eternal, that which can’t be named - Principle, Love, Truth… God.

What is the fruit of witnessing bullshonta?

[OldSkool]

30 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

What is the fruit of witnessing bullshonta?

Mmmm...cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias, unable to hold a rational discussion without getting nasty, arrogant attitude...etc

.....

....

....ya ....... Mmmmph....modaloshontadishu.