You are accurately describing my time here at GSC.
But that is because Paul is not under attack here at GSC.
In Churchianity Paul is often systematically minimized.
New Age religions that like Jesus are almost always anti-Paul.
Modern secular Academia hate Paul.
You have no idea how I proportion my time elsewhere, do you!
Maybe you think I only have time for GSC?
For one thing, it is never VPW that I talk about with others, except rarely with a few grads. A decade or two I did more VPW talk with grads, but far less nowadays.
All through the 1970s I witnessed the green card to Christians outside TWI. This includes trinitarians, as I have reported here. I would go to neighboring churches and meet people and had extensive Bible conversations. They often called me a Paul idolator, or a more polite term for the same idea.
Now this. Mainstream Christianity seeks a balance between Jesus teachings and Paul’s letters.
The reason for this is most of Christianity does not support extreme hyper dispensationalism. EW Bullinger was an extreme hyper dispensationalist. And VPW “lifted” his work for PFAL so it has the same viewpoint.
Dispensationalists typically teach similar to TWI that we live in the “grace administration” where Paul’s letters are more pertinent to the times.
PFAL goes further in wrong doctrine than that in teaching some scripture is “to us” and other scripture is “for our learning”.
This is a shell game describing how to discount OT and gospel teachings as being lesser or written to another group in another time.
No. If scripture is God inspired then it would be to the audience. It does not mean Levitical law applies to us today. But plenty of people examine it for setting legal precedents today.
The next is denigrating labels like trinitarian. It dumbs down the discussion and is a label that is a form of ad hominem attack that reduces the other persons relationship with God and Jesus Christ to something that is easily discounted. Like “ewww they are trinitarians”. .... off. I’ll let my Lord Jesus Christ describe the nature of that relationship I have to you at the return just like the slandering TWI leadership.
I do try to say so, but sometimes it gets lost in the race to post.
What is at the heart of my criticisms of the Corps is very similar to the bulk of your post here. Yes, I believe the program had fundamental flaws and it hamstrung some of the troops in various ways. Though I was not in the program, I was very able to witness their behavior on the field and how it deteriorated as the the 1980s progressed.
The program had major flaws, the top leadership were overwhelmed by the adversary, and the loud leadership on the field spread the misery.
It is interesting that IN SPITE of all that, many Corps people learned extremely good things of the Word, and applied them well on the field. The reason for this is the extremely rich amount of the accurate Word that saturated TWI.
The reason so many bad ideas and spirits were attracted to TWI is because they had to damp down that rich amount of the Word that was there. Why would the devil persistently attack the weak believers and churches of Churchianity? He went after those places that threatened his kingdoms the most, and TWI-1 was a major challenge.
Hi Mike – perhaps someday you’ll understand how one’s perception of wierwille was shaped by how much of a composite image is formed from seeing his different sides.
It is not just his public persona but how he behaved in unguarded moments and further if one has had the unfortunate experience of being sexually molested by him.
I’ve learned in life we are initially known by our words, but over time our deeds either support our words - or they nullify our words and sabotage our efforts to influence others.
Just wanted to explain this to you over the times you go on and on how we’re all sinners - and I agree!
but you also talk about folks on Grease Spot being too harsh on wierwille- maybe without realizing there's a whole other side - a darker side of wierwille that you were not aware of.
I think you use absolute thinking – or black and white thinking. That myopic view does not take into account the biblical data that suggests some sins are worse than others and the consequences of some sins are more destructive than others.
That being said – since you have not been through the corps program you have never witnessed wierwille in unguarded moments – instances of wierwille doing and saying stuff that would indicate bad judgement on his part – stuff that, to the uninitiated would surely offend , horrify, or even shock them that the teacher of PFAL would behave this way .
For example, the pajama party with wierwille at Rome City showing a porn video to the corps under the pretext of preparing us to counsel anyone even those who work in the porn industry or are into watching porn...
...Or the time he was in the Rome City Coachman Suite, sexually molesting Kristen – as mentioned in her book…
These incidents present a different side of him that you have not witnessed or experienced. You can read about the horrifying stories of wierwille’s depraved behavior – but if you’ve never been there to experience them – it can seem like exaggerated or fabricated stories – because it doesn’t agree with how you’ve experienced the nice, warm and fuzzy prim and proper wierwille.
I don’t expect you to flat out believe the accounts of wierwille’s depravity shared on Grease Spot.
But I wish you would have some respect for what former corps have shared here – realizing that they may have a more complete picture of the real wierwille even though it disagrees with your romanticized and sanitized version that was presented to the general TWI public.
But that doesn’t let you off the hook.
I knowyou knowin your heart there’s some dark and ominous underpinnings to wierwille’s ministry. But love and admiration can blind someone to another’s faults.
People usually find what they’re looking for.
I know you’ve been around TWI from a long time ago. Surely in all that time – I can’t imagine you’ve never met a woman who had been sexually molested by wierwille and may have tried to relate to you something so horrible that happened to her - but she couldn't find the words or courage to make herself vulnerable ...people would attack her for starting rumors or attacking wierwille's ministry...wierwille would say stuff to cause people to doubt any negative words about him ---for instance I know you've heard him say about those who have criticized him or complain about some horrible thing he did , that's how the adversary always works to cause division - - they did it to Jesus, did it to Paul...or maybe you heard about that happening to someone you knew.
You should dust off those old memories and ignored red flags. Seek and you will find.
You and many here focus on the old man nature of VPW, because your perspective is saturated with sin, frustration, anger, etc.
Nobody would be able to focus on Victor Paul wierwilles old man nature had he actually put to death the old man with his deeds. He lived in his old man nature for all to see....u upset we noticed? If he was walking in the spirit he wouldn't have been molesting young women who expected a man if God and not a wolf in sheep's clothing with eyes full of adultery....nor a Drambuie sipping greedy drunk.
Its more you seeking revenge on me and others who have consistently pointed out the truth and obvious facts for over a decade.
I'm not seeking revenge, but simply explaining why I place a MUCH higher priority on a different set of facts than the set of facts you focus on. I'm explaining why I put such a low priority and importance on what you think is of paramount importance.
If it were the case that you and I were on a church board trying to decide if we should hire VPW as a pastor, then I would have a totally different positon and agree with you. If that were the context, then I think I'd be totally on your side in properly rejecting VPW's application, as per common sense, and the scriptures like Timothy that specify the necessary qualifications for a pastor.
But that is decidedly NOT the context of our disagreement here and now over which set of facts about VPW's life are most important to us each, respectively.
The fruit I look at are not the second and third hand reports of this or that situation with VPW, which occupie much attention here at GSC. Even first hand reports about VPW are of relatively unimportant to me.
I look at the ZERO-hand reports from me, to me, about my own spiritual development and growth in the Bible and good Christian living. I look at the fruit in my life, and am thankful for what I was taught.
So, unlike the contextual setting of hiring VPW as a local church pastor, in this context I see that the new-man nature of VPW prevailed in his teaching to me.
Unlike our agreement in rejecting VPW for the local pastor role, I myself accept him in the role of personal teacher to me for opening up the Bible for understanding and application.
Had all these GSC reports been in the wind long ago, before I learned God's Word from VPW, then I don't know how I would have handled that. I am thankful I did not have to make such a relatively uninformed decision.
Yes I’m aware of that reference. The reason I would not necessarily include it in biographical material is that it is not currently recognized by TWI and is not available for sale in their bookstore.
Mrs. VPWs biography of her husband (and self) entitled “Born Again To Serve” does not mention the story. This is available in their bookstore so I would consider it “supported” biographical material.
The problem with this is that makes the story exist kind of in limbo. They don’t want to put it out there officially because it’s a sketchy story, but they want the buzz of the story out there as it hypes up the whitewashed image of Wierwille they wish to portray.
For anyone who wants to read The Way: Living in Love by Elena Scott Whiteside, you can go to the Internet Archive, create an account, and "borrow" it. Yes. Like going to an online library. I did this and flipped through the pages.
I happen to have a hard-cover copy of Whiteside's book, so it's easy reference for me. Alas, the book is out-of-print, but sometimes you see a copy at an online book dealer for hundreds of dollars.
That said, I'll spend another minute here to say I suspect The Way no longer publishes Whiteside's TWLIL book because so many of us who are cited in the book no longer support the organization, in fact, many of us speak out against it. For instance, my own recruitment story at the East Carolina Univeristy fellowship 1970, is in the book, so I referenced that in my own book, Undertow.
For anyone who wants to read The Way: Living in Love by Elena Scott Whiteside, you can go to the Internet Archive, create an account, and "borrow" it. Yes. Like going to an online library. I did this and flipped through the pages.
I happen to have a hard-cover copy of Whiteside's book, so it's easy reference for me. Alas, the book is out-of-print, but sometimes you see a copy at an online book dealer for hundreds of dollars.
That said, I'll spend another minute here to say I suspect The Way no longer publishes Whiteside's TWLIL book because so many of us who are cited in the book no longer support the organization, in fact, many of us speak out against it. For instance, my own recruitment story at the East Carolina Univeristy fellowship 1970, is in the book, so I referenced that in my own book, Undertow.
I love the Internet Archive, and their lending library. Unfortunately, just 2 weeks ago they lost a lawsuit from some publisher's conglomerate, or something like that. I don't know any of the details, but this lending arrangement is under fire at the moment and may disappear.
With respect to your hunch on why TWI has dropped WLIL from their bookstore, I think you are totally correct about the reason.
TWI has always had a phobia about having any kind of spotlight on people no longer standing with the ministry. That policy was in place in 1976-78 when I worked at Tape Duplicating. We were occasionally told to pull out of circulation any back date issues of the SNT tapes featuring a leader who just leave the ministry.
I am relatively sure the crazy "old wineskins" policy they had there of suppressing old issues of the Way Magazine were similarly motivated.
This deletion of past people and events is on my list of things to discuss with my contacts within TWI-4. It really must end. I have begun telling them that if they don't get more honest about documenting in writing ALL the events in TWI's past they the job will be done without them, and without their input.
I am thinking of contacting Elena Whiteside about her book and see if she sees any future printings or editions in the future, and how she feels about having the original book scanned into a PDF file.
documenting in writing ALL the events in TWI's past they the job will be done without them, and without their input.
This documenting already has been and continues to be done right here, as it has been done in Charlene's book and in Kristin's book and in Carl's book...
Even first hand reports about VPW are of relatively unimportant to me.
In a move, dishonest IMO, waysider, you quoted me like that with no bold fonting on that word "relatively" and eliminating all context, and the following icon:
17 minutes ago, waysider said:
*/*/*/*
So I bold fonted the word "relatively" and will supply the context you wanted to hide.
Here is the context of the comment that I feel was deliberately distorted:
...our disagreement here and now over which set of facts about VPW's life are most important to us each, respectively.
The fruit I look at are not the second and third hand reports of this or that situation with VPW, which occupied much attention here at GSC. Even first hand reports about VPW are of relatively unimportant to me.
I look at the ZERO-hand reports from me, to me, about my own spiritual development and growth in the Bible and good Christian living. I look at the fruit in my life, and am thankful for what I was taught.
This deletion of past people and events is on my list of things to discuss with my contacts within TWI-4.
They still do it and unless you are meeting with the directors in person I can guarantee nobody will hear of your complaints above whatever level of position whomever u talk to occupies.
They still do it and unless you are meeting with the directors in person I can guarantee nobody will hear of your complaints above whatever level of position whomever u talk to occupies.
There is, hopefully, a WayGB agent that reads this page.
am thinking of contacting Elena Whiteside about her book and see if she sees any future printings or editions in the future, and how she feels about having the original book scanned into a PDF file.
Two hold copyright, not the credited author. The way living in love is a shameless propaganda piece propping up Victor Paul wierwille as some great man of God, which he clearly was not.
Two hold copyright, not the credited author. The way living in love is a shameless propaganda piece propping up Victor Paul wierwille as some great man of God, which he clearly was not.
I know him as a great teacher because of the fruit in my life from his teaching.
Meanwhile, can you or anyone else here, reasonably expect me to throw away the baby (the fruit in my life) with the bathwater (VPW's old-man nature) ????
What piddly replacement could you offer? Nothing !
For anyone who wants to read The Way: Living in Love by Elena Scott Whiteside, you can go to the Internet Archive, create an account, and "borrow" it. Yes. Like going to an online library. I did this and flipped through the pages.
I happen to have a hard-cover copy of Whiteside's book, so it's easy reference for me. Alas, the book is out-of-print, but sometimes you see a copy at an online book dealer for hundreds of dollars.
That said, I'll spend another minute here to say I suspect The Way no longer publishes Whiteside's TWLIL book because so many of us who are cited in the book no longer support the organization, in fact, many of us speak out against it. For instance, my own recruitment story at the East Carolina Univeristy fellowship 1970, is in the book, so I referenced that in my own book, Undertow.
Thanks - I have a hard copy in a box somewhere. This method allows for a 1 hour “borrow” to get exact text. OS posted screenshots of the pertinent pages.
Your book is excellent and highly recommended for all who visit this site. It covers a unique period in the formative years of the ministry not available through other sources. Thanks for writing it - great job !!!
I'm not seeking revenge, but simply explaining why I place a MUCH higher priority on a different set of facts than the set of facts you focus on. I'm explaining why I put such a low priority and importance on what you think is of paramount importance.
If it were the case that you and I were on a church board trying to decide if we should hire VPW as a pastor, then I would have a totally different positon and agree with you. If that were the context, then I think I'd be totally on your side in properly rejecting VPW's application, as per common sense, and the scriptures like Timothy that specify the necessary qualifications for a pastor.
But that is decidedly NOT the context of our disagreement here and now over which set of facts about VPW's life are most important to us each, respectively.
The fruit I look at are not the second and third hand reports of this or that situation with VPW, which occupie much attention here at GSC. Even first hand reports about VPW are of relatively unimportant to me.
I look at the ZERO-hand reports from me, to me, about my own spiritual development and growth in the Bible and good Christian living. I look at the fruit in my life, and am thankful for what I was taught.
So, unlike the contextual setting of hiring VPW as a local church pastor, in this context I see that the new-man nature of VPW prevailed in his teaching to me.
Unlike our agreement in rejecting VPW for the local pastor role, I myself accept him in the role of personal teacher to me for opening up the Bible for understanding and application.
Had all these GSC reports been in the wind long ago, before I learned God's Word from VPW, then I don't know how I would have handled that. I am thankful I did not have to make such a relatively uninformed decision.
All the sets of facts are important. If only a certain set are important then you will be on a lifetime subscription for daily snake oil.
But fruit is expanded beyond one person. When you look at the negative impact on all the lives of the Corps and others it is insurmountable. And the fruit of building up or tearing down the overall body of Christ is clear also.
All the sets of facts are important. If only a certain set are important then you will be on a lifetime subscription for daily snake oil.
That may have been the case for the Way Corps, but not for PFAL and the collaterals. The fruit in my life has been good from my focus on the class and collaterals. Something went very wrong in how the Corps evolved.
Discovering a new set of facts about VPW's old-man nature long after he died and I am counting my blessings from PFAL does not negate the fruit in my life. It just complicates how I am able to teach others, but not fatally.
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OldSkool
I do want to address this Mike. You constantly come at me like I have forgotten, or have been talked out of the truth of wierwille, or that I just don't understand where you are coming from. Personall
waysider
This right here. If you're unable to define and regulate your control factors and variables, your research is worthless. The best you could hope for would be an observational analysis of your collecte
Charity
I agree with So_Crates when he said "Here's a wild idea: why don't YOU become meek and I'll tell you about all the fruit in my life since I stopped making PLAF the center of my life." There have
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chockfull
Now this. Mainstream Christianity seeks a balance between Jesus teachings and Paul’s letters.
The reason for this is most of Christianity does not support extreme hyper dispensationalism. EW Bullinger was an extreme hyper dispensationalist. And VPW “lifted” his work for PFAL so it has the same viewpoint.
Dispensationalists typically teach similar to TWI that we live in the “grace administration” where Paul’s letters are more pertinent to the times.
PFAL goes further in wrong doctrine than that in teaching some scripture is “to us” and other scripture is “for our learning”.
This is a shell game describing how to discount OT and gospel teachings as being lesser or written to another group in another time.
No. If scripture is God inspired then it would be to the audience. It does not mean Levitical law applies to us today. But plenty of people examine it for setting legal precedents today.
The next is denigrating labels like trinitarian. It dumbs down the discussion and is a label that is a form of ad hominem attack that reduces the other persons relationship with God and Jesus Christ to something that is easily discounted. Like “ewww they are trinitarians”. .... off. I’ll let my Lord Jesus Christ describe the nature of that relationship I have to you at the return just like the slandering TWI leadership.
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T-Bone
Hi Mike – perhaps someday you’ll understand how one’s perception of wierwille was shaped by how much of a composite image is formed from seeing his different sides.
It is not just his public persona but how he behaved in unguarded moments and further if one has had the unfortunate experience of being sexually molested by him.
I’ve learned in life we are initially known by our words, but over time our deeds either support our words - or they nullify our words and sabotage our efforts to influence others.
Identifying folks by their deeds takes some practice Matthew 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? (biblehub.com). Of course, Matthew 7:16 is in reference to spotting false prophets – but getting a general idea of whether someone is good or bad is a practical principle one can abstract from that verse as well.
Just wanted to explain this to you over the times you go on and on how we’re all sinners - and I agree!
but you also talk about folks on Grease Spot being too harsh on wierwille- maybe without realizing there's a whole other side - a darker side of wierwille that you were not aware of.
I think you use absolute thinking – or black and white thinking. That myopic view does not take into account the biblical data that suggests some sins are worse than others and the consequences of some sins are more destructive than others.
That being said – since you have not been through the corps program you have never witnessed wierwille in unguarded moments – instances of wierwille doing and saying stuff that would indicate bad judgement on his part – stuff that, to the uninitiated would surely offend , horrify, or even shock them that the teacher of PFAL would behave this way .
For example, the pajama party with wierwille at Rome City showing a porn video to the corps under the pretext of preparing us to counsel anyone even those who work in the porn industry or are into watching porn...
...Or the time he was in the Rome City Coachman Suite, sexually molesting Kristen – as mentioned in her book…
These incidents present a different side of him that you have not witnessed or experienced. You can read about the horrifying stories of wierwille’s depraved behavior – but if you’ve never been there to experience them – it can seem like exaggerated or fabricated stories – because it doesn’t agree with how you’ve experienced the nice, warm and fuzzy prim and proper wierwille.
I don’t expect you to flat out believe the accounts of wierwille’s depravity shared on Grease Spot.
But I wish you would have some respect for what former corps have shared here – realizing that they may have a more complete picture of the real wierwille even though it disagrees with your romanticized and sanitized version that was presented to the general TWI public.
But that doesn’t let you off the hook.
I know you know in your heart there’s some dark and ominous underpinnings to wierwille’s ministry. But love and admiration can blind someone to another’s faults.
People usually find what they’re looking for.
I know you’ve been around TWI from a long time ago. Surely in all that time – I can’t imagine you’ve never met a woman who had been sexually molested by wierwille and may have tried to relate to you something so horrible that happened to her - but she couldn't find the words or courage to make herself vulnerable ...people would attack her for starting rumors or attacking wierwille's ministry...wierwille would say stuff to cause people to doubt any negative words about him ---for instance I know you've heard him say about those who have criticized him or complain about some horrible thing he did , that's how the adversary always works to cause division - - they did it to Jesus, did it to Paul...or maybe you heard about that happening to someone you knew.
You should dust off those old memories and ignored red flags. Seek and you will find.
Edited by T-Boneclarity
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OldSkool
Nobody would be able to focus on Victor Paul wierwilles old man nature had he actually put to death the old man with his deeds. He lived in his old man nature for all to see....u upset we noticed? If he was walking in the spirit he wouldn't have been molesting young women who expected a man if God and not a wolf in sheep's clothing with eyes full of adultery....nor a Drambuie sipping greedy drunk.
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Mike
I'm not seeking revenge, but simply explaining why I place a MUCH higher priority on a different set of facts than the set of facts you focus on. I'm explaining why I put such a low priority and importance on what you think is of paramount importance.
If it were the case that you and I were on a church board trying to decide if we should hire VPW as a pastor, then I would have a totally different positon and agree with you. If that were the context, then I think I'd be totally on your side in properly rejecting VPW's application, as per common sense, and the scriptures like Timothy that specify the necessary qualifications for a pastor.
But that is decidedly NOT the context of our disagreement here and now over which set of facts about VPW's life are most important to us each, respectively.
The fruit I look at are not the second and third hand reports of this or that situation with VPW, which occupie much attention here at GSC. Even first hand reports about VPW are of relatively unimportant to me.
I look at the ZERO-hand reports from me, to me, about my own spiritual development and growth in the Bible and good Christian living. I look at the fruit in my life, and am thankful for what I was taught.
So, unlike the contextual setting of hiring VPW as a local church pastor, in this context I see that the new-man nature of VPW prevailed in his teaching to me.
Unlike our agreement in rejecting VPW for the local pastor role, I myself accept him in the role of personal teacher to me for opening up the Bible for understanding and application.
Had all these GSC reports been in the wind long ago, before I learned God's Word from VPW, then I don't know how I would have handled that. I am thankful I did not have to make such a relatively uninformed decision.
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penworks
For anyone who wants to read The Way: Living in Love by Elena Scott Whiteside, you can go to the Internet Archive, create an account, and "borrow" it. Yes. Like going to an online library. I did this and flipped through the pages.
I happen to have a hard-cover copy of Whiteside's book, so it's easy reference for me. Alas, the book is out-of-print, but sometimes you see a copy at an online book dealer for hundreds of dollars.
That said, I'll spend another minute here to say I suspect The Way no longer publishes Whiteside's TWLIL book because so many of us who are cited in the book no longer support the organization, in fact, many of us speak out against it. For instance, my own recruitment story at the East Carolina Univeristy fellowship 1970, is in the book, so I referenced that in my own book, Undertow.
Cheers from Charlene at https://charleneedge.com
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Nathan_Jr
Four crucified, crowing cocks, chinqualla peekachoo, and Bible worship are not not on the path to "spiritual maturity."
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waysider
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Mike
Hi Charlene, I don't think we have ever met here.
I love the Internet Archive, and their lending library. Unfortunately, just 2 weeks ago they lost a lawsuit from some publisher's conglomerate, or something like that. I don't know any of the details, but this lending arrangement is under fire at the moment and may disappear.
With respect to your hunch on why TWI has dropped WLIL from their bookstore, I think you are totally correct about the reason.
TWI has always had a phobia about having any kind of spotlight on people no longer standing with the ministry. That policy was in place in 1976-78 when I worked at Tape Duplicating. We were occasionally told to pull out of circulation any back date issues of the SNT tapes featuring a leader who just leave the ministry.
I am relatively sure the crazy "old wineskins" policy they had there of suppressing old issues of the Way Magazine were similarly motivated.
This deletion of past people and events is on my list of things to discuss with my contacts within TWI-4. It really must end. I have begun telling them that if they don't get more honest about documenting in writing ALL the events in TWI's past they the job will be done without them, and without their input.
I am thinking of contacting Elena Whiteside about her book and see if she sees any future printings or editions in the future, and how she feels about having the original book scanned into a PDF file.
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Nathan_Jr
This documenting already has been and continues to be done right here, as it has been done in Charlene's book and in Kristin's book and in Carl's book...
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Mike
I had written:
In a move, dishonest IMO, waysider, you quoted me like that with no bold fonting on that word "relatively" and eliminating all context, and the following icon:
*/*/*/*
So I bold fonted the word "relatively" and will supply the context you wanted to hide.
Here is the context of the comment that I feel was deliberately distorted:
...our disagreement here and now over which set of facts about VPW's life are most important to us each, respectively.
The fruit I look at are not the second and third hand reports of this or that situation with VPW, which occupied much attention here at GSC. Even first hand reports about VPW are of relatively unimportant to me.
I look at the ZERO-hand reports from me, to me, about my own spiritual development and growth in the Bible and good Christian living. I look at the fruit in my life, and am thankful for what I was taught.
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OldSkool
They still do it and unless you are meeting with the directors in person I can guarantee nobody will hear of your complaints above whatever level of position whomever u talk to occupies.
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Mike
There is, hopefully, a WayGB agent that reads this page.
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OldSkool
Two hold copyright, not the credited author. The way living in love is a shameless propaganda piece propping up Victor Paul wierwille as some great man of God, which he clearly was not.
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Nathan_Jr
Someone, please, explain WayGB.
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Mike
I know him as a great teacher because of the fruit in my life from his teaching.
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OldSkool
No disrespect, they don't care.
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Mike
If that is the case I will eventually find out.
*/*/*
Meanwhile, can you or anyone else here, reasonably expect me to throw away the baby (the fruit in my life) with the bathwater (VPW's old-man nature) ????
What piddly replacement could you offer? Nothing !
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Nathan_Jr
No one expects anything of you.
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Nathan_Jr
It’s not a baby. It’s a rotting corpse.
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chockfull
Thanks - I have a hard copy in a box somewhere. This method allows for a 1 hour “borrow” to get exact text. OS posted screenshots of the pertinent pages.
Your book is excellent and highly recommended for all who visit this site. It covers a unique period in the formative years of the ministry not available through other sources. Thanks for writing it - great job !!!
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chockfull
All the sets of facts are important. If only a certain set are important then you will be on a lifetime subscription for daily snake oil.
But fruit is expanded beyond one person. When you look at the negative impact on all the lives of the Corps and others it is insurmountable. And the fruit of building up or tearing down the overall body of Christ is clear also.
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chockfull
Sure it is an internal nickname given to J0hn L1nder and his cronies in the Safety department.
Rev L has been involved in all of the cleanup situations and was there armed in the confrontation between Paul Allen and Martindale.
He knows where the bodies are buried and so people give him a wide berth from any type of accusation.
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Mike
That may have been the case for the Way Corps, but not for PFAL and the collaterals. The fruit in my life has been good from my focus on the class and collaterals. Something went very wrong in how the Corps evolved.
Discovering a new set of facts about VPW's old-man nature long after he died and I am counting my blessings from PFAL does not negate the fruit in my life. It just complicates how I am able to teach others, but not fatally.
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Nathan_Jr
No one is offering a replacement. No one is suggesting swapping one conditioned, indoctrinated mind for another.
If anything is on offer here, it is the opportunity to wake up
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