You present this nostalgic, romantiscised version of him that you have dreamed up from his public persona, that was vastly different from what has been reported on his private life from multiple people, including his own family members.
Not his public persona.
Not dreamed up, either.
If you follow the ups and downs I gave a timeline for, you can see what I did was try things this way, then try things that way, and several times.
It was not his on stage public persona that I was sifting back and forth, shaking up and down. It was the words he taught on SNTs back then mostly (not the collaterals), and how his teachings opened up more Bible to me and more Bible applications. The collaterals were heavy in my life only for the early 70. Then again in 1998.
I was careful in my evaluating VPW those years to NOT imitate the snappers I saw that jumped on the wierwille bandwagon way too fast for my comfort. I took 11 years to go WoW.
I was careful in those years to DELETE his on stage showmanship (which was mostly corny) his humor (which was either too subtle or lame) and to delete many of the times I was with him in person from my evaluations, outside what Bible he taught me face to face.
I deleted his inventing and winding up the Corps without proper restraints.
I deleted what reports I heard about him from family and GreaseSpotters, and the live version of GreaseSpot I attended in 1967 with Ralph D.
My sifting through produced a very un-romanticized appreciation of VPW based solely of how I can handle my Bible. It represents the backbone in my Bible understanding, with plenty of contributions from many other grads, and from other ministries.
*/*/*/*
Here is (again) that back and forth and up and down timeline that describes my careful manufacture of a paradigm the most effectively throws out the bathwater.
Maybe you got a sense that I knew him from the fact that I too was searching EVERYWHERE, so I can relate well to him there.
I asked questions of all sorts of people when I was checking out the hooky pook fields before PFAL, and I tried to punch holes in clouds with my mind and talk to plants with polygraphs. I could write an entertaining book of my crazy searching, and serious searching.
After PFAL I asked all sorts people questions in TWI both about Bible and ministry history. My landlord edited the PFAL book for Dr and I spent MANY hours drilling him with questions about that. What kind of interactions did VPW have in the editing were often my focus. I asked these same kinds of questions about editing VPW of my friend at HQ, David Craley, who edited the Way Mag then.
So, as I learned VPW's history from WLIL and MANY other places like "Light Began to Dawn," I built a timeline in my head of his life. I build timelines all the time that way, and I do it on paper, and I now do it digitally. I have timelines of things I am thankful for in my life. I have timelines of all the Jr High top 40s songs I loved as a teen and the months they were on the charts and radio. I just slowly built one of VPW’s life, the things that mattered to me in his search and then his reaching out.
I just figured in the 1940s his searching was all over the map, like mine. When he found SIT, he dropped all the irons he had cooking in the fire, and concentrated on that. I did exactly the same thing in my life. Yeah, in that sense I knew him.
Oddly, when I started work at HQ in 1976, that principle {{a prophet is not without honor except around the ones close to him}} set in and my admiration and trust of him went down. There are lots of reasons that is in the Word, and it surely happened to me. (I only spotted this in hindsight years later.)
Then, when I left HQ in 1978 my respect for him went up again.
Then in late 1982, I could hear on the SNTs that he had a stroke from his drawn out letter "s" pronunciations. And I figured he was over the hill and freshly installed LCM was going to be my admired leader from then on. Respect for VPW and his current ‘82 teachings went down.
Then in 1983 to 85 my respect for VPW went up again as I listened to a few his tapes and also saw the Corps fast developing Nazi like attitudes and tactics (like "Follow me or you are doomed.") and LCM was getting pretty intense.
Then in July 1987 it went down, way down, when I saw the John Schoenheit paper for the first time, and respect for the Board of Trustees along with VPW went to near zero for trying to suppress that much needed paper.
Then in 1988 my respect went up a little for VPW a few notches, or at least for his pre-1968 ministry that produced the film class. This was in the days before I latched onto the collaterals, which was 10 years later. But in 1988 I thought the collaterals were more like mere souvenirs of the film class. The reason for this 1988 climb in respect is I started seeing from the bootleg film class that John Lynn was dead wrong in saying the class dissociated the power of believing from the written promises of God in His Word. I found MANY places where VPW specifically mentioned that believing really only works for written Bible promises or direct revelation.
Then the next 10 years my respect drifted all about this way and that, but I got a transcript of the class and was able to find things in it VERY FAST for the first time. I slowly started checking my memory and other people’s memory of the class and found out we were VERY deficient. My humility slowly went up, and my respect for VPW slowly went up.
Then in 1998 someone showed me some things I missed in the collaterals and things changed rapidly as I reviewed the thrilling introduction to the Bible they gave me in the early 1970s.
*/*/*
So, with all these ups and downs, I was constantly RE-EVALUATING what I knew about him, and from many perspectives, sometimes great respect and sometimes disgust, and all the shades (and colors) in between.
I think most of you folks went through the VERY EXCITING ride up to respect VPW, and then coasted horizontal and boring for a while like an on a carnival ride, and then SNAPPING downward to crash on the ground of zero respect, and continuing on, burrowing through the Earth to levels of anti-idol disrespect.
I think I got to know him MUCH better, so I can see why you say that part.
I suspect that you suspect that I was nearly always up high on that same carnival ride you were on, but no. I was on the up and down roller coaster that had many cycles, but never a ground penetrating crash.
Yeah, I think I did get to know him, but it was not as an idol at all. I still think he blew it on lots of things in my maturity now. After 1998 things got very simple and I studied the collaterals ONLY until 2018.
My respect for VPW was never the creepy type you probably suspect.
It was fine-tuned and tempered to be balanced and with careful weighing of facts from all sides and directions, and many times.
Likewise we have a vilification of all Corps. And a false judgement that all Corps somehow “missed it” on the fundamentals of what they spent 2 years in a close governed environment studying in depth.
I apologize for not including the caveat that I was learning to include at Twinky's request.
I do acknowledge here and will try to remember in the future vilification of the Corps to mention that I mean mostly the top leaders, and some very assertive lower henchmen that grew in number as the 1980s progressed.
I never mean ALL the members of the Corps in my Villain Reports.
I also recognize and appreciate the work and study that many in the Corps did for years. Not all, but many did.
In all that learning did you ever get born again? Doubt it. I'm not seeing any evidence of that happening in your life Mike. When and if it does happen you will know it
I was paraphrasing because I think an other gospel has it differently.
The principle refers to VERY CLOSE FOR A LONG TIME, and the apostles were relative newcomers to his life.
I think it is also in the OT in various ways....
That clearly is not what scripture is saying with the verse I provided. Im responding to your lengthy post as well, in this one concise post. victor paul wierwille and pflap have become an idol for you, judging from your own undying adulation of both. To the point that you won't allow yourself to believe what is plainly written in scripture. You allow scripture to be defined by wierwille and not Jesus Christ, our Lord. As for me, Im out for now. Peace.
If you follow the ups and downs I gave a timeline for, you can see what I did was try things this way, then try things that way, and several times.
It was not his on stage public persona that I was sifting back and forth, shaking up and down. It was the words he taught on SNTs back then mostly (not the collaterals), and how his teachings opened up more Bible to me and more Bible applications. The collaterals were heavy in my life only for the early 70. Then again in 1998.
I was careful in my evaluating VPW those years to NOT imitate the snappers I saw that jumped on the wierwille bandwagon way too fast for my comfort. I took 11 years to go WoW.
I was careful in those years to DELETE his on stage showmanship (which was mostly corny) his humor (which was either too subtle or lame) and to delete many of the times I was with him in person from my evaluations, outside what Bible he taught me face to face.
I deleted his inventing and winding up the Corps without proper restraints.
I deleted what reports I heard about him from family and GreaseSpotters, and the live version of GreaseSpot I attended in 1967 with Ralph D.
My sifting through produced a very un-romanticized appreciation of VPW based solely of how I can handle my Bible. It represents the backbone in my Bible understanding, with plenty of contributions from many other grads, and from other ministries.
*/*/*/*
Here is (again) that back and forth and up and down timeline that describes my careful manufacture of a paradigm the most effectively throws out the bathwater.
Maybe you got a sense that I knew him from the fact that I too was searching EVERYWHERE, so I can relate well to him there.
I asked questions of all sorts of people when I was checking out the hooky pook fields before PFAL, and I tried to punch holes in clouds with my mind and talk to plants with polygraphs. I could write an entertaining book of my crazy searching, and serious searching.
After PFAL I asked all sorts people questions in TWI both about Bible and ministry history. My landlord edited the PFAL book for Dr and I spent MANY hours drilling him with questions about that. What kind of interactions did VPW have in the editing were often my focus. I asked these same kinds of questions about editing VPW of my friend at HQ, David Craley, who edited the Way Mag then.
So, as I learned VPW's history from WLIL and MANY other places like "Light Began to Dawn," I built a timeline in my head of his life. I build timelines all the time that way, and I do it on paper, and I now do it digitally. I have timelines of things I am thankful for in my life. I have timelines of all the Jr High top 40s songs I loved as a teen and the months they were on the charts and radio. I just slowly built one of VPW’s life, the things that mattered to me in his search and then his reaching out.
I just figured in the 1940s his searching was all over the map, like mine. When he found SIT, he dropped all the irons he had cooking in the fire, and concentrated on that. I did exactly the same thing in my life. Yeah, in that sense I knew him.
Oddly, when I started work at HQ in 1976, that principle {{a prophet is not without honor except around the ones close to him}} set in and my admiration and trust of him went down. There are lots of reasons that is in the Word, and it surely happened to me. (I only spotted this in hindsight years later.)
Then, when I left HQ in 1978 my respect for him went up again.
Then in late 1982, I could hear on the SNTs that he had a stroke from his drawn out letter "s" pronunciations. And I figured he was over the hill and freshly installed LCM was going to be my admired leader from then on. Respect for VPW and his current ‘82 teachings went down.
Then in 1983 to 85 my respect for VPW went up again as I listened to a few his tapes and also saw the Corps fast developing Nazi like attitudes and tactics (like "Follow me or you are doomed.") and LCM was getting pretty intense.
Then in July 1987 it went down, way down, when I saw the John Schoenheit paper for the first time, and respect for the Board of Trustees along with VPW went to near zero for trying to suppress that much needed paper.
Then in 1988 my respect went up a little for VPW a few notches, or at least for his pre-1968 ministry that produced the film class. This was in the days before I latched onto the collaterals, which was 10 years later. But in 1988 I thought the collaterals were more like mere souvenirs of the film class. The reason for this 1988 climb in respect is I started seeing from the bootleg film class that John Lynn was dead wrong in saying the class dissociated the power of believing from the written promises of God in His Word. I found MANY places where VPW specifically mentioned that believing really only works for written Bible promises or direct revelation.
Then the next 10 years my respect drifted all about this way and that, but I got a transcript of the class and was able to find things in it VERY FAST for the first time. I slowly started checking my memory and other people’s memory of the class and found out we were VERY deficient. My humility slowly went up, and my respect for VPW slowly went up.
Then in 1998 someone showed me some things I missed in the collaterals and things changed rapidly as I reviewed the thrilling introduction to the Bible they gave me in the early 1970s.
*/*/*
So, with all these ups and downs, I was constantly RE-EVALUATING what I knew about him, and from many perspectives, sometimes great respect and sometimes disgust, and all the shades (and colors) in between.
I think most of you folks went through the VERY EXCITING ride up to respect VPW, and then coasted horizontal and boring for a while like an on a carnival ride, and then SNAPPING downward to crash on the ground of zero respect, and continuing on, burrowing through the Earth to levels of anti-idol disrespect.
I think I got to know him MUCH better, so I can see why you say that part.
I suspect that you suspect that I was nearly always up high on that same carnival ride you were on, but no. I was on the up and down roller coaster that had many cycles, but never a ground penetrating crash.
Yeah, I think I did get to know him, but it was not as an idol at all. I still think he blew it on lots of things in my maturity now. After 1998 things got very simple and I studied the collaterals ONLY until 2018.
My respect for VPW was never the creepy type you probably suspect.
It was fine-tuned and tempered to be balanced and with careful weighing of facts from all sides and directions, and many times.
After reading through all of this my impression is you are recollecting the evolution of your image of VPW. As opposed the the real man. Kind of like OS is saying. VP didn’t go thru all those evolutions of character he pretty much was the same guy thru the 60s 70s and 80s - except he was dying in the 80s. His biographical material doesn’t depict a character shift. It also doesn’t record the snowstorm story.
What was your job at HQ 1976-1978?
Why do you continue to use denigrating terms like “snappers”? Whatever that means you use it in a pejorative sense.
The base meaning of an idol is an image different than the real deal.
We have American Idol the vocal show trying to build the stars of tomorrow. So that Kelly Clarkson can become rich and famous. And Carrie Underrwood. The real people are different than the images portrayed of them to sell millions of records.
I apologize for not including the caveat that I was learning to include at Twinky's request.
I do acknowledge here and will try to remember in the future vilification of the Corps to mention that I mean mostly the top leaders, and some very assertive lower henchmen that grew in number as the 1980s progressed.
I never mean ALL the members of the Corps in my Villain Reports.
I also recognize and appreciate the work and study that many in the Corps did for years. Not all, but many did.
If you mean top leaders then say so. Over 95% of the people who have gone through the “Way Corps” training no longer believe it was training in how to mimic the “Way” our Lord Jesus Christ, but more a program to produce zealots for some “other” Way.
His biographical material doesn’t depict a character shift. It also doesn’t record the snowstorm story.
If by "the snowstorm story" you mean the snow vision VPW said God gave him to verify that He had told VPW that He'd teach him the Word as it had not been known since the first century if he'd teach it to others, appears as part of what VPW told the author, Elena Whiteside, on page 180 of her book, The Way: Living in Love.
If by "the snowstorm story" you mean the snow vision VPW said God gave him to verify that He had told VPW that He'd teach him the Word as it had not been known since the first century if he'd teach it to others, appears as part of what VPW told the author, Elena Whiteside, on page 180 of her book, The Way: Living in Love.
Hi Charlene,
Yes I’m aware of that reference. The reason I would not necessarily include it in biographical material is that it is not currently recognized by TWI and is not available for sale in their bookstore.
Mrs. VPWs biography of her husband (and self) entitled “Born Again To Serve” does not mention the story. This is available in their bookstore so I would consider it “supported” biographical material.
The problem with this is that makes the story exist kind of in limbo. They don’t want to put it out there officially because it’s a sketchy story, but they want the buzz of the story out there as it hypes up the whitewashed image of Wierwille they wish to portray.
After reading through all of this my impression is you are recollecting the evolution of your image of VPW. As opposed the the real man. … Why do you continue to use denigrating terms like “snappers”? Whatever that means you use it in a pejorative sense.
You got that right about my image of VPW, but not the “real man” part.
You and many here focus on the old man nature of VPW, because your perspective is saturated with sin, frustration, anger, etc. Your image of VPW is not the real man, but it could be the factual man, after removing the obvious distortions and gross exaggerations reflecting revenge motivation.
I prefer to build my image of VPW based on his new man nature, and I do that by what I said earlier: how much better I understand the Bible due to him is appreciated and respected much.
But more asccurately, you really should be accusing me of idolatry of the Apostle Paul.
It is by Paul's revelations that I know to separate the two natures within VPW. It is by Paul’s revelation that I can recognize the new man in VPW. The more my image of VPW is of him helping me understand, then the more I can respect Paul.
Other Christians observing us at TWI notice the great emphasis on Paul, and accused us often in the past of Paul worship.
If you want to get a little more accurate (still off the beam, though) please do yourself a favor and call me a Paul idolator. That way you may be able to shake this anti-idol that rules your perspectives.
*/*/*
Yes that term “snapper” is a pejorative, but it is aimed (in my mind) not at the people who suffer from it, but at the procedure they use in making commitments. It is too emotional to be trusted. It explains how people throw away the baby in their zeal to throw away the bathwater, due to being too impulsive. Too much zeal, too early in the process of making a commitment, cause regretful re-actions. Those re-actions are similarly saturated with too much emotion and too little careful thought.
Snapping into a full commitment in a short time is a BAD strategy for making commitments that backfires on people.
If a bad decision is made this way (like idolizing VPW in the early days) then the eventual correction is often made the same way. This snap over to making VPW an anti-idol is inappropriate and extreme, and subject to the same kinds of inaccuracies as the snap decision to idolize him in the early days.
If by "the snowstorm story" you mean the snow vision VPW said God gave him to verify that He had told VPW that He'd teach him the Word as it had not been known since the first century if he'd teach it to others, appears as part of what VPW told the author, Elena Whiteside, on page 180 of her book, The Way: Living in Love.
56 minutes ago, chockfull said:
Hi Charlene,
Yes I’m aware of that reference. The reason I would not necessarily include it in biographical material is that it is not currently recognized by TWI and is not available for sale in their bookstore.
Mrs. VPWs biography of her husband (and self) entitled “Born Again To Serve” does not mention the story. This is available in their bookstore so I would consider it “supported” biographical material.
The problem with this is that makes the story exist kind of in limbo. They don’t want to put it out there officially because it’s a sketchy story, but they want the buzz of the story out there as it hypes up the whitewashed image of Wierwille they wish to portray.
For those reading along Im posting pics of the book I own and the page quoted for reference. I added page 181 as well because wierwille is gushing over how "spayshul" he is to this fawning young follower.:
If you mean top leaders then say so. Over 95% of the people who have gone through the “Way Corps” training no longer believe it was training in how to mimic the “Way” our Lord Jesus Christ, but more a program to produce zealots for some “other” Way.
I do try to say so, but sometimes it gets lost in the race to post.
What is at the heart of my criticisms of the Corps is very similar to the bulk of your post here. Yes, I believe the program had fundamental flaws and it hamstrung some of the troops in various ways. Though I was not in the program, I was very able to witness their behavior on the field and how it deteriorated as the the 1980s progressed.
The program had major flaws, the top leadership were overwhelmed by the adversary, and the loud leadership on the field spread the misery.
It is interesting that IN SPITE of all that, many Corps people learned extremely good things of the Word, and applied them well on the field. The reason for this is the extremely rich amount of the accurate Word that saturated TWI.
The reason so many bad ideas and spirits were attracted to TWI is because they had to damp down that rich amount of the Word that was there. Why would the devil persistently attack the weak believers and churches of Churchianity? He went after those places that threatened his kingdoms the most, and TWI-1 was a major challenge.
Is Whiteside the only written account? Do any audio recordings exist? Did Whiteside transcribe her quotes from her own audio recordings?
Not sure, though the story was drilled into the in-residence way corps when I was out at Gunnison. It's probably more relegated to campfire talk at this point. Wierwille: the man, the myth, the false prophet.
Is Whiteside the only written account? Do any audio recordings exist? Did Whiteside transcribe her quotes from her own audio recordings?
Let's put it in perspective. Im posting a video of a snow squall as that's the only thing out there that comes close to what wierwille described. Notice that you can see way more than 75 feet. Also note that there is no record of this snow squall happening on the weather books in Ohio at the time as noted by other posters here on GSC. And for those thinking he saw a vision and that's why it's not recorded: read the mans words. He stated it actually snowed and snowed so heavily that you couldnt see 75 feet away. So, he is saying that God actually made it snow so hard that you couldnt see 75 feet away yet nobody else in Ohio has record of it, reported it, saw it..nothing. Im not doubutng God's ability to pull this off if he so chose, but the story has so many holes in it that it's resembles a fishing net. You will have to click through to youtube to see it.
Is Whiteside the only written account? Do any audio recordings exist? Did Whiteside transcribe her quotes from her own audio recordings?
If I remember correctly, there is another snowstorm story where the sky is described as being pitch black. I think that one involves flights in and out of an airport (Tulsa, maybe?) being cancelled.
Let's put it in perspective. Im posting a video of a snow squall as that's the only thing out there that comes close to what wierwille described. Notice that you can see way more than 75 feet. Also note that there is no record of this snow squall happening on the weather books in Ohio at the time as noted by other posters here on GSC. And for those thinking he saw a vision and that's why it's not recorded: read the mans words. He stated it actually snowed and snowed so heavily that you couldnt see 75 feet away. So, he is saying that God actually made it snow so hard that you couldnt see 75 feet away yet nobody else in Ohio has record of it, reported it, saw it..nothing. Im not doubutng God's ability to pull this off if he so chose, but the story has so many holes in it that it's resembles a fishing net. You will have to click through to youtube to see it.
Right. The story is complete bullsh-it AND it’s a lie. It’s both.
I was driving in a blizzard once in Crested Butte. Couldn’t see 3ft away. Got vertigo. Freakiest shonta I’ve ever experienced.
I’m just looking at this from a historical critical perspective. It now comes down to which is more probable. That victor told this story? Or, that Whiteside SAID victor told this story?
If I remember correctly, there is another snowstorm story where the sky is described as being pitch black. I think that one involves flights in and out of an airport (Tulsa, maybe?) being cancelled.
Right. That’s it. Is it written? On tape? Oral tradition?
If the story did not originate with him, he certainly had ample opportunity to refute it.
Ahh....as Rosalie said in reference to your average followers in the way international: "If they want to speculate then let them speculate." Translation: We wont refute what they come up with but will leave them in the dark to think whatever the wish. Kinda rude, no?
The way international has a long standing habit of not refuting much of anything that is in their favor, and when it's out of favor such as the snow job story they don't refute it then. Instead, they dig two holes. One for the unfavorable item they wish to hide and the other for the shovel used to dig the hole. They are experts at whitewashing and concealement.
You got that right about my image of VPW, but not the “real man” part.
You and many here focus on the old man nature of VPW, because your perspective is saturated with sin, frustration, anger, etc. Your image of VPW is not the real man, but it could be the factual man, after removing the obvious distortions and gross exaggerations reflecting revenge motivation.
I prefer to build my image of VPW based on his new man nature, and I do that by what I said earlier: how much better I understand the Bible due to him is appreciated and respected much.
But more asccurately, you really should be accusing me of idolatry of the Apostle Paul.
It is by Paul's revelations that I know to separate the two natures within VPW. It is by Paul’s revelation that I can recognize the new man in VPW. The more my image of VPW is of him helping me understand, then the more I can respect Paul.
Other Christians observing us at TWI notice the great emphasis on Paul, and accused us often in the past of Paul worship.
If you want to get a little more accurate (still off the beam, though) please do yourself a favor and call me a Paul idolator. That way you may be able to shake this anti-idol that rules your perspectives.
*/*/*
Yes that term “snapper” is a pejorative, but it is aimed (in my mind) not at the people who suffer from it, but at the procedure they use in making commitments. It is too emotional to be trusted. It explains how people throw away the baby in their zeal to throw away the bathwater, due to being too impulsive. Too much zeal, too early in the process of making a commitment, cause regretful re-actions. Those re-actions are similarly saturated with too much emotion and too little careful thought.
Snapping into a full commitment in a short time is a BAD strategy for making commitments that backfires on people.
If a bad decision is made this way (like idolizing VPW in the early days) then the eventual correction is often made the same way. This snap over to making VPW an anti-idol is inappropriate and extreme, and subject to the same kinds of inaccuracies as the snap decision to idolize him in the early days.
No I am accurate on the “real man” part. If you notice unlike your account it remains the same always but doesn’t waver back and forth like yours does.
The reason yours does waver like that is because of “ostriches”. These are birds who bury their head in the sand whenever controversy arises so they don’t have to look at any controversial “negatives” but only look at the positives. You have done this for more than 20 years and have been called out on it here at GSC for 15 of those years.
The problem with an “ostrich” point of view or alternatively a “Pollyanna” point of view is that it doesn’t resolve the very real negatives, it just pushes them downstream. Even downstream into the subconscious. This causes them to build up and many times can lead to extreme types of breaks like nervous breakdowns, or in another case here from a lawsuit results in healthy young people walking in front of trains t commit suicide. It is very detrimental and very dangerous.
I am 100 percent accurate calling you a VP idolator. You expend none of the effort you do defending VP on defending Paul of the Bible.
Other Christians observing TWI absolutely do NOT notice any great emphasis on Paul they notice cult-like behavior and doctrine. I’ve amply shared concrete examples of this. Look at the “Cults S3” thread here and watch the first video example for an accurate sample of other Christian views. But you won’t as you censor all potential negatives.
I will say that what you are trying to promote here is the same Pollyanna whitewash the Way does about Paul.
Paul didn’t steal a class from multiple people and label it his own. He just wrote letters. A lot from jail. He had zero ability to amass a self seeking cult that enriched him like VP was enriched by properties, planes, motor coaches, motorcycles, campuses and adulating followers.
Just like on my American Idol example the picture of Kelly Clarkson most have is not reality. She married her agent who found her success, who is Reba McIntire’s son. Bought a large ranch with him. Divorced. Took 2 years to kick him off her property. He had changed careers during that time and wanted to be a rancher. She denied that. Much much different image than the talk show host and singer persona that appears to America.
Just like that you and TWI promote a fake image of Victor Paul Wierwille that is supported by literal images in molten medal called “Timothy statues”. This promoted the false identity and f public image Wierwille rather than the real image which was known by those closest to him.
Ahh....as Rosalie said in reference to your average followers in the way international: "If they want to speculate then let them speculate." Translation: We wont refute what they come up with but will leave them in the dark to think whatever the wish. Kinda rude, no?
The way international has a long standing habit of not refuting much of anything that is in their favor, and when it's out of favor such as the snow job story they don't refute it then. Instead, they dig two holes. One for the unfavorable item they wish to hide and the other for the shovel used to dig the hole. They are experts at whitewashing and concealement.
It gives them a cop out. “I never said that? Where did you get THAT?”
My fellowship commander used this cop out all the time. He is more absorbed in the collaterals than even you know who.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
330
267
271
186
Popular Days
Nov 12
118
Nov 13
107
Nov 20
105
Nov 9
104
Top Posters In This Topic
Mike 330 posts
T-Bone 267 posts
OldSkool 271 posts
Nathan_Jr 186 posts
Popular Days
Nov 12 2022
118 posts
Nov 13 2022
107 posts
Nov 20 2022
105 posts
Nov 9 2022
104 posts
Popular Posts
OldSkool
I do want to address this Mike. You constantly come at me like I have forgotten, or have been talked out of the truth of wierwille, or that I just don't understand where you are coming from. Personall
waysider
This right here. If you're unable to define and regulate your control factors and variables, your research is worthless. The best you could hope for would be an observational analysis of your collecte
Charity
I agree with So_Crates when he said "Here's a wild idea: why don't YOU become meek and I'll tell you about all the fruit in my life since I stopped making PLAF the center of my life." There have
Posted Images
Mike
Not his public persona.
Not dreamed up, either.
If you follow the ups and downs I gave a timeline for, you can see what I did was try things this way, then try things that way, and several times.
It was not his on stage public persona that I was sifting back and forth, shaking up and down. It was the words he taught on SNTs back then mostly (not the collaterals), and how his teachings opened up more Bible to me and more Bible applications. The collaterals were heavy in my life only for the early 70. Then again in 1998.
I was careful in my evaluating VPW those years to NOT imitate the snappers I saw that jumped on the wierwille bandwagon way too fast for my comfort. I took 11 years to go WoW.
I was careful in those years to DELETE his on stage showmanship (which was mostly corny) his humor (which was either too subtle or lame) and to delete many of the times I was with him in person from my evaluations, outside what Bible he taught me face to face.
I deleted his inventing and winding up the Corps without proper restraints.
I deleted what reports I heard about him from family and GreaseSpotters, and the live version of GreaseSpot I attended in 1967 with Ralph D.
My sifting through produced a very un-romanticized appreciation of VPW based solely of how I can handle my Bible. It represents the backbone in my Bible understanding, with plenty of contributions from many other grads, and from other ministries.
*/*/*/*
Here is (again) that back and forth and up and down timeline that describes my careful manufacture of a paradigm the most effectively throws out the bathwater.
Maybe you got a sense that I knew him from the fact that I too was searching EVERYWHERE, so I can relate well to him there.
I asked questions of all sorts of people when I was checking out the hooky pook fields before PFAL, and I tried to punch holes in clouds with my mind and talk to plants with polygraphs. I could write an entertaining book of my crazy searching, and serious searching.
After PFAL I asked all sorts people questions in TWI both about Bible and ministry history. My landlord edited the PFAL book for Dr and I spent MANY hours drilling him with questions about that. What kind of interactions did VPW have in the editing were often my focus. I asked these same kinds of questions about editing VPW of my friend at HQ, David Craley, who edited the Way Mag then.
So, as I learned VPW's history from WLIL and MANY other places like "Light Began to Dawn," I built a timeline in my head of his life. I build timelines all the time that way, and I do it on paper, and I now do it digitally. I have timelines of things I am thankful for in my life. I have timelines of all the Jr High top 40s songs I loved as a teen and the months they were on the charts and radio. I just slowly built one of VPW’s life, the things that mattered to me in his search and then his reaching out.
I just figured in the 1940s his searching was all over the map, like mine. When he found SIT, he dropped all the irons he had cooking in the fire, and concentrated on that. I did exactly the same thing in my life. Yeah, in that sense I knew him.
Oddly, when I started work at HQ in 1976, that principle {{a prophet is not without honor except around the ones close to him}} set in and my admiration and trust of him went down. There are lots of reasons that is in the Word, and it surely happened to me. (I only spotted this in hindsight years later.)
Then, when I left HQ in 1978 my respect for him went up again.
Then in late 1982, I could hear on the SNTs that he had a stroke from his drawn out letter "s" pronunciations. And I figured he was over the hill and freshly installed LCM was going to be my admired leader from then on. Respect for VPW and his current ‘82 teachings went down.
Then in 1983 to 85 my respect for VPW went up again as I listened to a few his tapes and also saw the Corps fast developing Nazi like attitudes and tactics (like "Follow me or you are doomed.") and LCM was getting pretty intense.
Then in July 1987 it went down, way down, when I saw the John Schoenheit paper for the first time, and respect for the Board of Trustees along with VPW went to near zero for trying to suppress that much needed paper.
Then in 1988 my respect went up a little for VPW a few notches, or at least for his pre-1968 ministry that produced the film class. This was in the days before I latched onto the collaterals, which was 10 years later. But in 1988 I thought the collaterals were more like mere souvenirs of the film class. The reason for this 1988 climb in respect is I started seeing from the bootleg film class that John Lynn was dead wrong in saying the class dissociated the power of believing from the written promises of God in His Word. I found MANY places where VPW specifically mentioned that believing really only works for written Bible promises or direct revelation.
Then the next 10 years my respect drifted all about this way and that, but I got a transcript of the class and was able to find things in it VERY FAST for the first time. I slowly started checking my memory and other people’s memory of the class and found out we were VERY deficient. My humility slowly went up, and my respect for VPW slowly went up.
Then in 1998 someone showed me some things I missed in the collaterals and things changed rapidly as I reviewed the thrilling introduction to the Bible they gave me in the early 1970s.
*/*/*
So, with all these ups and downs, I was constantly RE-EVALUATING what I knew about him, and from many perspectives, sometimes great respect and sometimes disgust, and all the shades (and colors) in between.
I think most of you folks went through the VERY EXCITING ride up to respect VPW, and then coasted horizontal and boring for a while like an on a carnival ride, and then SNAPPING downward to crash on the ground of zero respect, and continuing on, burrowing through the Earth to levels of anti-idol disrespect.
I think I got to know him MUCH better, so I can see why you say that part.
I suspect that you suspect that I was nearly always up high on that same carnival ride you were on, but no. I was on the up and down roller coaster that had many cycles, but never a ground penetrating crash.
Yeah, I think I did get to know him, but it was not as an idol at all. I still think he blew it on lots of things in my maturity now. After 1998 things got very simple and I studied the collaterals ONLY until 2018.
My respect for VPW was never the creepy type you probably suspect.
It was fine-tuned and tempered to be balanced and with careful weighing of facts from all sides and directions, and many times.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
I apologize for not including the caveat that I was learning to include at Twinky's request.
I do acknowledge here and will try to remember in the future vilification of the Corps to mention that I mean mostly the top leaders, and some very assertive lower henchmen that grew in number as the 1980s progressed.
I never mean ALL the members of the Corps in my Villain Reports.
I also recognize and appreciate the work and study that many in the Corps did for years. Not all, but many did.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
I was paraphrasing because I think an other gospel has it differently.
The principle refers to VERY CLOSE FOR A LONG TIME, and the apostles were relative newcomers to his life.
I think it is also in the OT in various ways....
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
cman
In all that learning did you ever get born again? Doubt it. I'm not seeing any evidence of that happening in your life Mike. When and if it does happen you will know it
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
That clearly is not what scripture is saying with the verse I provided. Im responding to your lengthy post as well, in this one concise post. victor paul wierwille and pflap have become an idol for you, judging from your own undying adulation of both. To the point that you won't allow yourself to believe what is plainly written in scripture. You allow scripture to be defined by wierwille and not Jesus Christ, our Lord. As for me, Im out for now. Peace.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
After reading through all of this my impression is you are recollecting the evolution of your image of VPW. As opposed the the real man. Kind of like OS is saying. VP didn’t go thru all those evolutions of character he pretty much was the same guy thru the 60s 70s and 80s - except he was dying in the 80s. His biographical material doesn’t depict a character shift. It also doesn’t record the snowstorm story.
What was your job at HQ 1976-1978?
Why do you continue to use denigrating terms like “snappers”? Whatever that means you use it in a pejorative sense.
The base meaning of an idol is an image different than the real deal.
We have American Idol the vocal show trying to build the stars of tomorrow. So that Kelly Clarkson can become rich and famous. And Carrie Underrwood. The real people are different than the images portrayed of them to sell millions of records.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
If you mean top leaders then say so. Over 95% of the people who have gone through the “Way Corps” training no longer believe it was training in how to mimic the “Way” our Lord Jesus Christ, but more a program to produce zealots for some “other” Way.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
penworks
If by "the snowstorm story" you mean the snow vision VPW said God gave him to verify that He had told VPW that He'd teach him the Word as it had not been known since the first century if he'd teach it to others, appears as part of what VPW told the author, Elena Whiteside, on page 180 of her book, The Way: Living in Love.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Hi Charlene,
Yes I’m aware of that reference. The reason I would not necessarily include it in biographical material is that it is not currently recognized by TWI and is not available for sale in their bookstore.
Mrs. VPWs biography of her husband (and self) entitled “Born Again To Serve” does not mention the story. This is available in their bookstore so I would consider it “supported” biographical material.
The problem with this is that makes the story exist kind of in limbo. They don’t want to put it out there officially because it’s a sketchy story, but they want the buzz of the story out there as it hypes up the whitewashed image of Wierwille they wish to portray.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
You got that right about my image of VPW, but not the “real man” part.
You and many here focus on the old man nature of VPW, because your perspective is saturated with sin, frustration, anger, etc. Your image of VPW is not the real man, but it could be the factual man, after removing the obvious distortions and gross exaggerations reflecting revenge motivation.
I prefer to build my image of VPW based on his new man nature, and I do that by what I said earlier: how much better I understand the Bible due to him is appreciated and respected much.
But more asccurately, you really should be accusing me of idolatry of the Apostle Paul.
It is by Paul's revelations that I know to separate the two natures within VPW. It is by Paul’s revelation that I can recognize the new man in VPW. The more my image of VPW is of him helping me understand, then the more I can respect Paul.
Other Christians observing us at TWI notice the great emphasis on Paul, and accused us often in the past of Paul worship.
If you want to get a little more accurate (still off the beam, though) please do yourself a favor and call me a Paul idolator. That way you may be able to shake this anti-idol that rules your perspectives.
*/*/*
Yes that term “snapper” is a pejorative, but it is aimed (in my mind) not at the people who suffer from it, but at the procedure they use in making commitments. It is too emotional to be trusted. It explains how people throw away the baby in their zeal to throw away the bathwater, due to being too impulsive. Too much zeal, too early in the process of making a commitment, cause regretful re-actions. Those re-actions are similarly saturated with too much emotion and too little careful thought.
Snapping into a full commitment in a short time is a BAD strategy for making commitments that backfires on people.
If a bad decision is made this way (like idolizing VPW in the early days) then the eventual correction is often made the same way. This snap over to making VPW an anti-idol is inappropriate and extreme, and subject to the same kinds of inaccuracies as the snap decision to idolize him in the early days.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
For those reading along Im posting pics of the book I own and the page quoted for reference. I added page 181 as well because wierwille is gushing over how "spayshul" he is to this fawning young follower.:
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
I do try to say so, but sometimes it gets lost in the race to post.
What is at the heart of my criticisms of the Corps is very similar to the bulk of your post here. Yes, I believe the program had fundamental flaws and it hamstrung some of the troops in various ways. Though I was not in the program, I was very able to witness their behavior on the field and how it deteriorated as the the 1980s progressed.
The program had major flaws, the top leadership were overwhelmed by the adversary, and the loud leadership on the field spread the misery.
It is interesting that IN SPITE of all that, many Corps people learned extremely good things of the Word, and applied them well on the field. The reason for this is the extremely rich amount of the accurate Word that saturated TWI.
The reason so many bad ideas and spirits were attracted to TWI is because they had to damp down that rich amount of the Word that was there. Why would the devil persistently attack the weak believers and churches of Churchianity? He went after those places that threatened his kingdoms the most, and TWI-1 was a major challenge.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Is Whiteside the only written account? Do any audio recordings exist? Did Whiteside transcribe her quotes from her own audio recordings?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Not sure, though the story was drilled into the in-residence way corps when I was out at Gunnison. It's probably more relegated to campfire talk at this point. Wierwille: the man, the myth, the false prophet.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Let's put it in perspective. Im posting a video of a snow squall as that's the only thing out there that comes close to what wierwille described. Notice that you can see way more than 75 feet. Also note that there is no record of this snow squall happening on the weather books in Ohio at the time as noted by other posters here on GSC. And for those thinking he saw a vision and that's why it's not recorded: read the mans words. He stated it actually snowed and snowed so heavily that you couldnt see 75 feet away. So, he is saying that God actually made it snow so hard that you couldnt see 75 feet away yet nobody else in Ohio has record of it, reported it, saw it..nothing. Im not doubutng God's ability to pull this off if he so chose, but the story has so many holes in it that it's resembles a fishing net. You will have to click through to youtube to see it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
If I remember correctly, there is another snowstorm story where the sky is described as being pitch black. I think that one involves flights in and out of an airport (Tulsa, maybe?) being cancelled.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Right. The story is complete bullsh-it AND it’s a lie. It’s both.
I was driving in a blizzard once in Crested Butte. Couldn’t see 3ft away. Got vertigo. Freakiest shonta I’ve ever experienced.
I’m just looking at this from a historical critical perspective. It now comes down to which is more probable. That victor told this story? Or, that Whiteside SAID victor told this story?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
If the story did not originate with him, he certainly had ample opportunity to refute it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Right. That’s it. Is it written? On tape? Oral tradition?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
So, I stand corrected on the field of vision thing based on what you experienced, but how come nobody else noticed? That's the kicker.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Ahh....as Rosalie said in reference to your average followers in the way international: "If they want to speculate then let them speculate." Translation: We wont refute what they come up with but will leave them in the dark to think whatever the wish. Kinda rude, no?
The way international has a long standing habit of not refuting much of anything that is in their favor, and when it's out of favor such as the snow job story they don't refute it then. Instead, they dig two holes. One for the unfavorable item they wish to hide and the other for the shovel used to dig the hole. They are experts at whitewashing and concealement.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
He sure did.
But he didn’t. And it seems he changed the story because he couldn’t keep track of his own bullshonta?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
No I am accurate on the “real man” part. If you notice unlike your account it remains the same always but doesn’t waver back and forth like yours does.
The reason yours does waver like that is because of “ostriches”. These are birds who bury their head in the sand whenever controversy arises so they don’t have to look at any controversial “negatives” but only look at the positives. You have done this for more than 20 years and have been called out on it here at GSC for 15 of those years.
The problem with an “ostrich” point of view or alternatively a “Pollyanna” point of view is that it doesn’t resolve the very real negatives, it just pushes them downstream. Even downstream into the subconscious. This causes them to build up and many times can lead to extreme types of breaks like nervous breakdowns, or in another case here from a lawsuit results in healthy young people walking in front of trains t commit suicide. It is very detrimental and very dangerous.
I am 100 percent accurate calling you a VP idolator. You expend none of the effort you do defending VP on defending Paul of the Bible.
Other Christians observing TWI absolutely do NOT notice any great emphasis on Paul they notice cult-like behavior and doctrine. I’ve amply shared concrete examples of this. Look at the “Cults S3” thread here and watch the first video example for an accurate sample of other Christian views. But you won’t as you censor all potential negatives.
I will say that what you are trying to promote here is the same Pollyanna whitewash the Way does about Paul.
Paul didn’t steal a class from multiple people and label it his own. He just wrote letters. A lot from jail. He had zero ability to amass a self seeking cult that enriched him like VP was enriched by properties, planes, motor coaches, motorcycles, campuses and adulating followers.
Just like on my American Idol example the picture of Kelly Clarkson most have is not reality. She married her agent who found her success, who is Reba McIntire’s son. Bought a large ranch with him. Divorced. Took 2 years to kick him off her property. He had changed careers during that time and wanted to be a rancher. She denied that. Much much different image than the talk show host and singer persona that appears to America.
Just like that you and TWI promote a fake image of Victor Paul Wierwille that is supported by literal images in molten medal called “Timothy statues”. This promoted the false identity and f public image Wierwille rather than the real image which was known by those closest to him.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
It gives them a cop out. “I never said that? Where did you get THAT?”
My fellowship commander used this cop out all the time. He is more absorbed in the collaterals than even you know who.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.