You talk like you know him. Kinda creepy there mike.
I wish you could have put that a little differently. I felt insulted a little, but I'll try to work with the kernel of what you seem to be asking ,and think no evil.
My impression of VPW’s Moody stuff is that it came early in his career, like in the 1940s, before he knew enough to SIT in 1953. The guy was searching EVERYWHERE, and I have several reasons for thinking that.
After 1953 he was on a roll and teaching others and that had to compete with than searching. My impression is that Moody did not teach SIT except that it ceased.
Maybe you got a sense that I knew him from the fact that I too was searching EVERYWHERE, so I can relate well to him there.
I asked questions of all sorts of people when I was checking out the hooky pook fields before PFAL, and I tried to punch holes in clouds with my mind and talk to plants with polygraphs. I could write an entertaining book of my crazy searching, and serious searching.
After PFAL I asked all sorts people questions in TWI both about Bible and ministry history. My landlord edited the PFAL book for Dr and I spent MANY hours drilling him with questions about that.What kind of interactions did VPW have in the editing were often my focus.I asked these same kinds of questions about editing VPW of my friend at HQ, David Craley, who edited the Way Mag then.
So, as I learned VPW's history from WLIL and MANY other places like "Light Began to Dawn," I built a timeline in my head of his life. I build timelines all the time that way, and I do it on paper, and I now do it digitally. I have timelines of things I am thankful for in my life.I have timelines of all the Jr High top 40s songs I loved as a teen and the months they were on the charts and radio.I just slowly built one of VPW’s life, the things that mattered to me in his search and then his reaching out.
I just figured in the 1940s his searching was all over the map, like mine. When he found SIT, he dropped all the irons he had cooking in the fire, and concentrated on that. I did exactly the same thing in my life. Yeah, in that sense I knew him.
Oddly, when I started work at HQ in 1976, that principle {{a prophet is not without honor except around the ones close to him}} set in and my admiration and trust of him went down. There are lots of reasons that is in the Word, and it surely happened to me. (I only spotted this in hindsight years later.)
Then, when I left HQ in 1978 my respect for him went up again.
Then in late 1982, I could hear on the SNTs that he had a stroke from his drawn out letter "s" pronunciations. And I figured he was over the hill and freshly installed LCM was going to be my admired leader from then on. Respect for VPW and his current ‘82 teachings went down.
Then in 1983 to 85 my respect for VPW went up again as I listened to a few his tapes and also saw the Corps fast developing Nazi like attitudes and tactics (like "Follow me or you are doomed.") and LCM was getting pretty intense.
Then in July 1987 it went down, way down, when I saw the John Schoenheit paper for the first time, and respect for the Board of Trustees along with VPW went to near zero for trying to suppress that much needed paper.
Then in 1988 my respect went up a little for VPW a few notches, or at least for his pre-1968 ministry that produced the film class. This was in the days before I latched onto the collaterals, which was 10 years later. But in 1988 I thought the collaterals were more like mere souvenirs of the film class. The reason for this 1988 climb in respect is I started seeing from the bootleg film class that John Lynn was dead wrong in saying the class dissociated the power of believing from the written promises of God in His Word.I found MANY places where VPW specifically mentioned that believing really only works for written Bible promises or direct revelation.
Then the next 10 years my respect drifted all about this way and that, but I got a transcript of the class and was able to find things in it VERY FAST for the first time. I slowly started checking my memory and other people’s memory of the class and found out we were VERY deficient. My humility slowly went up, and my respect for VPW slowly went up.
Then in 1998 someone showed me some things I missed in the collaterals and things changed rapidly as I reviewed the thrilling introduction to the Bible they gave me in the early 1970s.
*/*/*
So, with all these ups and downs, I was constantly RE-EVALUATING what I knew about him, and from many perspectives, sometimes great respect and sometimes disgust, and all the shades (and colors) in between.
I think most of you folks went through the VERY EXCITING ride up to respect VPW, and then coasted horizontal and boring for a while like an on a carnival ride, and then SNAPPING downward to crash on the ground of zero respect, and continuing on, burrowing through the Earth to levels of anti-idol disrespect.
I think I got to know him MUCH better, so I can see why you say that part.
I suspect that you suspect that I was nearly always up high on that same carnival ride you were on, but no.I was on the up and down roller coaster that had many cycles, but never a ground penetrating crash.
Yeah, I think I did get to know him, but it was not as an idol at all.I still think he blew it on lots of things in my maturity now.After 1998 things got very simple and I studied the collaterals ONLY until 2018.
My respect for VPW was never the creepy type you probably suspect.
It was fine-tuned and tempered to be balanced and with careful weighing of facts from all sides and directions, and many times.
Considering his track record with other peoples work you left off the very real possibility that he stole course materials but did not complete the courses.
Please read my posts a little more carefully.
I did actually include that possibility, but I used the word "borrow."
I know in my searching days, little transgressions like this were very possible. I was a gumshoe on a shoestring budget. But I never went so far as to kick a holy roller in the a$$.
You’re forgetting another possibility; he lied about the whole thing.
You are forgetting the focus here.
We are investigating T-Bone's investigation, remember?
I think it was shoddy and proved NOTHING, because he pretty much assumed what he ended up proving to himself, and to some others who applied zero critical thinking skills in trying to bust one sentence in WLIL.
I wish you could have put that a little differently. I felt insulted a little, but I'll try to work with the kernel of what you seem to be asking ,and think no evil.
My impression of VPW’s Moody stuff is that it came early in his career, like in the 1940s, before he knew enough to SIT in 1953. The guy was searching EVERYWHERE, and I have several reasons for thinking that.
After 1953 he was on a roll and teaching others and that had to compete with than searching. My impression is that Moody did not teach SIT except that it ceased.
Maybe you got a sense that I knew him from the fact that I too was searching EVERYWHERE, so I can relate well to him there.
I asked questions of all sorts of people when I was checking out the hooky pook fields before PFAL, and I tried to punch holes in clouds with my mind and talk to plants with polygraphs. I could write an entertaining book of my crazy searching, and serious searching.
After PFAL I asked all sorts people questions in TWI both about Bible and ministry history. My landlord edited the PFAL book for Dr and I spent MANY hours drilling him with questions about that.What kind of interactions did VPW have in the editing were often my focus.I asked these same kinds of questions about editing VPW of my friend at HQ, David Craley, who edited the Way Mag then.
So, as I learned VPW's history from WLIL and MANY other places like "Light Began to Dawn," I built a timeline in my head of his life. I build timelines all the time that way, and I do it on paper, and I now do it digitally. I have timelines of things I am thankful for in my life.I have timelines of all the Jr High top 40s songs I loved as a teen and the months they were on the charts and radio.I just slowly built one of VPW’s life, the things that mattered to me in his search and then his reaching out.
I just figured in the 1940s his searching was all over the map, like mine. When he found SIT, he dropped all the irons he had cooking in the fire, and concentrated on that. I did exactly the same thing in my life. Yeah, in that sense I knew him.
Oddly, when I started work at HQ in 1976, that principle {{a prophet is not without honor except around the ones close to him}} set in and my admiration and trust of him went down. There are lots of reasons that is in the Word, and it surely happened to me. (I only spotted this in hindsight years later.)
Then, when I left HQ in 1978 my respect for him went up again.
Then in late 1982, I could hear on the SNTs that he had a stroke from his drawn out letter "s" pronunciations. And I figured he was over the hill and freshly installed LCM was going to be my admired leader from then on. Respect for VPW and his current ‘82 teachings went down.
Then in 1983 to 85 my respect for VPW went up again as I listened to a few his tapes and also saw the Corps fast developing Nazi like attitudes and tactics (like "Follow me or you are doomed.") and LCM was getting pretty intense.
Then in July 1987 it went down, way down, when I saw the John Schoenheit paper for the first time, and respect for the Board of Trustees along with VPW went to near zero for trying to suppress that much needed paper.
Then in 1988 my respect went up a little for VPW a few notches, or at least for his pre-1968 ministry that produced the film class. This was in the days before I latched onto the collaterals, which was 10 years later. But in 1988 I thought the collaterals were more like mere souvenirs of the film class. The reason for this 1988 climb in respect is I started seeing from the bootleg film class that John Lynn was dead wrong in saying the class dissociated the power of believing from the written promises of God in His Word.I found MANY places where VPW specifically mentioned that believing really only works for written Bible promises or direct revelation.
Then the next 10 years my respect drifted all about this way and that, but I got a transcript of the class and was able to find things in it VERY FAST for the first time. I slowly started checking my memory and other people’s memory of the class and found out we were VERY deficient. My humility slowly went up, and my respect for VPW slowly went up.
Then in 1998 someone showed me some things I missed in the collaterals and things changed rapidly as I reviewed the thrilling introduction to the Bible they gave me in the early 1970s.
*/*/*
So, with all these ups and downs, I was constantly RE-EVALUATING what I knew about him, and from many perspectives, sometimes great respect and sometimes disgust, and all the shades (and colors) in between.
I think most of you folks went through the VERY EXCITING ride up to respect VPW, and then coasted horizontal and boring for a while like an on a carnival ride, and then SNAPPING downward to crash on the ground of zero respect, and continuing on, burrowing through the Earth to levels of anti-idol disrespect.
I think I got to know him MUCH better, so I can see why you say that part.
I suspect that you suspect that I was nearly always up high on that same carnival ride you were on, but no.I was on the up and down roller coaster that had many cycles, but never a ground penetrating crash.
Yeah, I think I did get to know him, but it was not as an idol at all.I still think he blew it on lots of things in my maturity now.After 1998 things got very simple and I studied the collaterals ONLY until 2018.
My respect for VPW was never the creepy type you probably suspect.
It was fine-tuned and tempered to be balanced and with careful weighing of facts from all sides and directions, and many times.
45 minutes ago, Mike said:
Please read my posts a little more carefully.
I did actually include that possibility, but I used the word "borrow."
I know in my searching days, little transgressions like this were very possible. I was a gumshoe on a shoestring budget. But I never went so far as to kick a holy roller in the a$$.
41 minutes ago, Mike said:
You are forgetting the focus here.
We are investigating T-Bone's investigation, remember?
I think it was shoddy and proved NOTHING, because he pretty much assumed what he ended up proving to himself, and to some others who applied zero critical thinking skills in trying to bust one sentence in WLIL.
Always the same run around by Mike to blame-shift andcut his idol some slack
It can’t be wierwille’s fault - even though he created the corps program and ran it with a tight fist! You weren’t allowed to fart at corps night unless you could show line by line from PFAL, what’s available, how to receive it and what to do with it after you’ve farted it.
But don’t take my word for it - I only was in the way corps - so what do I know? Mike has actually NEVER BEEN in the way corps so believe him for sure!
True confession time: don’t listen to me as I go on and on about wierwille’s plagiarism and shoddy research skills . I could probably write 100 books on 100 of wierwille’s most hyped up bull-$hit from PFAL — don’t worry I’ll spare everyone the expense of buying my books of looooooong. zzzzZZZ ZZzzzz dissertations with proper attribution - you can read it for free - subscribe to the Why PFAL sucks thread now - operators who operate all nine phone lines all the time are standing by! But don’t waste you time looking into the fatal errors and logical fallacies in wierwille’s theology that Grease Spotters have pointed out.You should listen to Mike who looked into all this stuff before wierwille even learned to copy Johnny Jump Up’s theme paper in the 5th grade .
Be smart listen to Mike! He knows all ! I wish I met Mike before I joined TWI then he would’ve helped me stay the course. He alone remained faithful to a plagiarizing-drunken-son-of-a-bi+ch-sexual-Predator-berating-self-inflating-ego-on-a-100-foot-pedestal-with-delusions-of-grandeur! Mike has stayed faithful to wierwille through thick and thin hijackings and pirating. Unlike those pesky Snappers - Mike has absorbed every single drop of wierwille’s Kool-Aid, made it his own - 2nd generation plagiarist - and then took it to some next level bull-$hit. Why did I even go int the corps ? Why did I even call Moody correspondence registrar’s office? I should have just believed Mike. In the beginning there was wierwille’s turd. And the turd become Mike’s god. And the turd was god. Happy is he that flusheth not the turd that wierwille $hitteth.
I did actually include that possibility, but I used the word "borrow."
Don't get hung up on words, remember? Unless it matters. And it really always does.
Borrowing is NOT stealing. It's possible he borrowed. It's possible he stole.
Lying is NOT bullsh-itting. It's probable he lied. It's probable he bullsh-itted.
Word choice matters.
2 hours ago, Mike said:
I was a gumshoe on a shoestring budget
Now THIS sentence makes up for so many flubs. Thank you for saying so.
2 hours ago, Mike said:
You are forgetting the focus here.
I'm actually not.
2 hours ago, Mike said:
We are investigating T-Bone's investigation, remember?
Yes.
2 hours ago, Mike said:
I think it was shoddy and proved NOTHING, because he pretty much assumed what he ended up proving to himself, and to some others who applied zero critical thinking skills in trying to bust one sentence in WLIL.
That's exactly how Victor did it! Sounds like people are imitating victor. Sounds like they are standing on his shoulders and still can't see out over the rim of the soup bowl. That's what happens when you stand on the shoulders of a spiritual dwarf.... wait...
"Zero critical thinking skills".... what? You yourself said those were overrated skills. A pony trick, remember?
Oh, well. Thanks for playing, anyway. Three Unpainted Arizona points for you. Everyone gets something for playing. That way no one gets missed.
Always the same run around by Mike to blame-shift and cut his idol some slack… It can’t be wierwille’s fault - even though he created the corps program and ran it with a tight fist!
You evidently do not read my posts to others, or maybe you have some kind of strong distraction going.
Have you ever noticed how often I have said the Corps was a big mistake?
Have you ever noticed how often I have used the phrase "Wierwille's Folly" to describe the Corps?
Where you been, man?
Get up to speed, a little bit at least, by doing a simple word search on "folly" and please get back to me with your apology.
You evidently do not read my posts to others, or maybe you have some kind of strong distraction going.
Have you ever noticed how often I have said the Corps was a big mistake?
Have you ever noticed how often I have used the phrase "Wierwille's Folly" to describe the Corps?
Where you been, man?
Get up to speed, a little bit at least, by doing a simple word search on "folly" and please get back to me with your apology.
Well as usual I ignored your misdirect. I did a better search to prove my point!
I did a search of your comments containing the word “corps” just on this thread , and stopped at 4 since there were a bunch more on this very thread - of you talking $hit about stuff you know nothing about (which has never stopped you before) to shift the blame off of your precious lord and savior wierwille.
For yeah verily he is the prince of pieces of $hit that you call pearls. Let him that rightly-divideth understand. Mike will never deny his lord and savior wierwille the gore due to his bloody butchering of The Bible. It’s wierwille in you the hope of gory.
I saw how, especially certain members of the Corps started behaving towards us non-Corps. Plus I read a lot about the Corps abuses, especially in TWI-1, and TWI-2 here at GreaseSpot from people who were in, and even some who participated in the abuses.
I saw how, especially certain members of the Corps started behaving towards us non-Corps. Plus I read a lot about the Corps abuses, especially in TWI-1, and TWI-2 here at GreaseSpot from people who were in, and even some who participated in the abuses.
You forgot to include that.
The Corps? THE Corps?
No. HIS Corps. victor paul wierwille called it "my Corps."
So, THE Corps is neither scientifically precise nor mathematically exact. It should be called "victor's Corps" or "his Corps."
The abused becomes the abuser. The hazed becomes the hazer. victor paul wierwille didn't know how (H-O-W) to lead, and he certainly didn't know how (H-O-W) to teach leadership. When his Corps was abusive, they were imitating him, they were standing on his shoulders, they were following their "leader."
I saw how, especially certain members of the Corps started behaving towards us non-Corps. Plus I read a lot about the Corps abuses, especially in TWI-1, and TWI-2 here at GreaseSpot from people who were in, and even some who participated in the abuses.
You forgot to include that.
I don’t understand why you consider yourself an authority on something you’ve never participated in.
You criticize that which you know not.
I probably sat through more PFAL than you could shake a Vic at.
One thing I did not forget is that you don’t like to admit you’re ever wrong.
Besides being a slowpoke reading Undertow ( even my cat reads faster than you - - and he likes to dog-ear the pages) how much have you read on your bad boy wierwille abusing and exploiting the way corps - men and women - both sexual and mental cruelty?
do you know why your perspective sucks?
you stand atop wierwille’s high pedestal and look down on all the cult-survivors who no longer worship your master.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, cult-leaders, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
I don’t understand why you consider yourself an authority on something you’ve never participated in.
Do I need to post another YouTube video of Professor Irwin Corey here?
Do you have any idea how freakin' outrageous it is to continue engaging with him at all?
If you want to address something to the great unwashed masses (or even if they wash regularly and just get an inkling to question the "greatness" of a certain cult), why not synthesize and summarize the essence of his arguments and claims in a succinct document and get it posted to GSC and ask the mods to make it not subject to inane ramblings? IOW, develop a document, post it or get it posted and not have it be subject to discussion... at least on the post or new thread on which it's initially posted.
For ANYONE to continue to pose the kind of question (even if not in the form of a question) you posed in what I quoted herein, is tantamount to continuing to do the same thing repeatedly and expect a different outcome.
Don't continue to criticize him. Criticize his bottom-line ideas.
oh you'd love to get your beloved idol off the hook wouldn't you Mike.
wierwille did NOT care about LEARNING ANYTHING !!!!!!!!
he WANTED - WANTED - WANTED - THE FVCKING CREDIT, dum dum Mike, you know it's true - wierwille was a shyster - a con man!!!!!
That's why he PLAGIARIZED the work of others - that's why he got a fake doctor's degree - he wants the credit but doesn't want to do the work...him claiming he took everything that Moody had to offer through correspondence courses - fits perfectly with his modus operandi - he took the easiest route - a dishonest shortcut actually - deciding to claim he took correspondence courses - who would think to check on that one?
oh, the absurdity in your wierwille-defending-endeavors! You so funny Mike - this is some of that new comedy therapy, right?
taking a little breather from your fruitless attempts to push God's budgetary bugaboos? Somebody please show this clown the double doors.
where will he show up next?
The Absent Christ thread?
The NT canon thread?
Where’s WaldoMike ?
Finding Nemo Mike ?
good luck!
The context is so obvious.
vpw was expounding on how the people at schools he went to were "top men in their fields" and how he got a superior education, oh, and how he took all of Moody's correspondence classes that he could. No comments on what he learned from any of them. no comments about what any covered, no substance from the entire experience. It's as if his entire exposure to Moody's correspondence classes started and ended with his claim that he took them. Then, as it turns out, Moody confirmed he didn't complete any of their classes- that was proven, and they are unable to prove he even signed up for any- because they didn't keep records of incomplete classes for decades.
So, zero impact on him except to say he took the classes, and documentation shows he completed NONE, and no documentation to show he even applied for one (which, by itself, proves nothing, but IN THE CONTEXT OF THE REST, says a lot.)
What conclusions would a reasonable person draw? Would they say Moody was lying or their records were in error? Would they say he started a bunch of their classes but didn't finish them? This is a man who was incredibly cheap financially. Would he PAY for a single class he didn't finish and get the credit? Would they say he was interested only in the study of the material? This was a man who went out of his way to AVOID studying material, and whose only strengths were in plagiarizing and in presenting sermons.
So, NO, this is not a man who would have taken their classes, let along left them incomplete. This is a man who would FAKE taking their classes, to claim to know the material, and claim the cachet of the classes. As above, who would check on a ridiculous lie like that? He faked his way through everything he could, and got the credentials he could buy.
No. HIS Corps. victor paul wierwille called it "my Corps."
So, THE Corps is neither scientifically precise nor mathematically exact. It should be called "victor's Corps" or "his Corps."
The abused becomes the abuser. The hazed becomes the hazer. victor paul wierwille didn't know how (H-O-W) to lead, and he certainly didn't know how (H-O-W) to teach leadership. When his Corps was abusive, they were imitating him, they were standing on his shoulders, they were following their "leader."
Nobody forgot.
You know Wierwilles idea for Marines being the pattern for his leadership group shows a remarkably similar mindset to Scientology and L Ron Hubbard’s “Sea Organization”.
This group originated when Scientology was about to lose its tax exempt status. Hubbard bought a large boat and took his organization into international waters to run Scientology from the boat.
All of the young men and women on that boat were the first “sea org” like Mike Rinder the co star of the Scientology expose along with Leah Remini.
The idea was the same. A group of absolutely committed non questioning zealots that would obey even the most ridiculous request and work for minimum wage.
I wish you could have put that a little differently. I felt insulted a little, but I'll try to work with the kernel of what you seem to be asking ,and think no evil.
If my comment makes you uncomforatble I really don't know what to say. You talk like you know him, and no, Im not making some crazy way nased insult that you cohort with familiar spirits.
You present this nostalgic, romantiscised version of him that you have dreamed up from his public persona, that was vastly different from what has been reported on his private life from multiple people, including his own family members.
You could revise this a little for accuracy: Some who participated in the abuses they learned from wierwille and became three times the child of hell that wierwille was. All martindale ever did was take what he learned from wierwille to another level, as was expected of him. Not that he's innocent in the matter.
{{a prophet is not without honor except around the ones close to him}}
And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Thats not what the verse is saying, thos closest to Jesus (such as Peter, James, John, his closest disciples) followed him everywhere, were loyal except during the crucifixion, and became the center of the young Church on the day of pentecost leading the efforts with Christ as their head and we enjoy the fruits of their labors today.
They were offended at Jesus because he was just a carpenter. He had no worldly credentials to even speak the things he was speaking, even though God authorized him, sent him, etc. So, you are misquoting scripture that you misunderstand. Not trying to be persnickety, but I thought you would want to know since you are into biblical research.
I can't see him caring much to get the credit or being graded. I think he wanted the learning, and that is the context of his words in WLIL.
Uhh...you do realize that the way living in love is a blantant unapalogetic propaganda piece written by a young lady who presented a complete fabricated view of victor paul wierwille. I mean it's so bad that the way international have pulled the book and pretend it never existed. It was utter garbage, so much so, that I actually purchased a hard back copy cause, since the directors are embarassed of it then it must hold some good information on wierwille that they would love nothing more than to hide from the light of day.
If my comment makes you uncomforatble I really don't know what to say. You talk like you know him, and no, Im not making some crazy way nased insult that you cohort with familiar spirits.
You present this nostalgic, romantiscised version of him that you have dreamed up from his public persona, that was vastly different from what has been reported on his private life from multiple people, including his own family members.
Yes the idol of VPW is always whitewashed. I mean you can’t expect all these silent agreeing readers of Mikes to get on their knees before a dirty golden image?
Housekeeping we’ve got a visible stain on the Timothy statue. We need a polish rag over here stat!
Likewise we have a vilification of all Corps. And a false judgement that all Corps somehow “missed it” on the fundamentals of what they spent 2 years in a close governed environment studying in depth.
I really could care less if anything I post triggers some nonce who keeps talking down to me in a parent child tone.
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OldSkool
I do want to address this Mike. You constantly come at me like I have forgotten, or have been talked out of the truth of wierwille, or that I just don't understand where you are coming from. Personall
waysider
This right here. If you're unable to define and regulate your control factors and variables, your research is worthless. The best you could hope for would be an observational analysis of your collecte
Charity
I agree with So_Crates when he said "Here's a wild idea: why don't YOU become meek and I'll tell you about all the fruit in my life since I stopped making PLAF the center of my life." There have
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OldSkool
You talk like you know him. Kinda creepy there mike.
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Nathan_Jr
I can’t say any of these recent posts are off topic, considering the tags I attached to the top of the thread.
Carry on, but be careful not to step on the kitten.
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T-Bone
yeah thanks for the reminder
New biblical research found there were over 60 others crucified with Jesus Christ.
Documentation will be added in PFAL Today
note there were several Jesus lookalikes in the mix
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Nathan_Jr
Wow! That image is some powerful evidence!
That’s what I learned in PFAL. Search for evidence that fits. A photograph, a drawing, a daydream. Whatever works to MAKE it fit.
I just knew one day someone would find an illustration like this. That settles it.
Well done, T-Bone! 427 Unpainted Arizona points for you. Treat yourself to a cookie.
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T-Bone
Yahoo – I’m going to
Mar-a-LagoDisneyland !!!!!!Link to comment
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Mike
I wish you could have put that a little differently. I felt insulted a little, but I'll try to work with the kernel of what you seem to be asking ,and think no evil.
My impression of VPW’s Moody stuff is that it came early in his career, like in the 1940s, before he knew enough to SIT in 1953. The guy was searching EVERYWHERE, and I have several reasons for thinking that.
After 1953 he was on a roll and teaching others and that had to compete with than searching. My impression is that Moody did not teach SIT except that it ceased.
Maybe you got a sense that I knew him from the fact that I too was searching EVERYWHERE, so I can relate well to him there.
I asked questions of all sorts of people when I was checking out the hooky pook fields before PFAL, and I tried to punch holes in clouds with my mind and talk to plants with polygraphs. I could write an entertaining book of my crazy searching, and serious searching.
After PFAL I asked all sorts people questions in TWI both about Bible and ministry history. My landlord edited the PFAL book for Dr and I spent MANY hours drilling him with questions about that. What kind of interactions did VPW have in the editing were often my focus. I asked these same kinds of questions about editing VPW of my friend at HQ, David Craley, who edited the Way Mag then.
So, as I learned VPW's history from WLIL and MANY other places like "Light Began to Dawn," I built a timeline in my head of his life. I build timelines all the time that way, and I do it on paper, and I now do it digitally. I have timelines of things I am thankful for in my life. I have timelines of all the Jr High top 40s songs I loved as a teen and the months they were on the charts and radio. I just slowly built one of VPW’s life, the things that mattered to me in his search and then his reaching out.
I just figured in the 1940s his searching was all over the map, like mine. When he found SIT, he dropped all the irons he had cooking in the fire, and concentrated on that. I did exactly the same thing in my life. Yeah, in that sense I knew him.
Oddly, when I started work at HQ in 1976, that principle {{a prophet is not without honor except around the ones close to him}} set in and my admiration and trust of him went down. There are lots of reasons that is in the Word, and it surely happened to me. (I only spotted this in hindsight years later.)
Then, when I left HQ in 1978 my respect for him went up again.
Then in late 1982, I could hear on the SNTs that he had a stroke from his drawn out letter "s" pronunciations. And I figured he was over the hill and freshly installed LCM was going to be my admired leader from then on. Respect for VPW and his current ‘82 teachings went down.
Then in 1983 to 85 my respect for VPW went up again as I listened to a few his tapes and also saw the Corps fast developing Nazi like attitudes and tactics (like "Follow me or you are doomed.") and LCM was getting pretty intense.
Then in July 1987 it went down, way down, when I saw the John Schoenheit paper for the first time, and respect for the Board of Trustees along with VPW went to near zero for trying to suppress that much needed paper.
Then in 1988 my respect went up a little for VPW a few notches, or at least for his pre-1968 ministry that produced the film class. This was in the days before I latched onto the collaterals, which was 10 years later. But in 1988 I thought the collaterals were more like mere souvenirs of the film class. The reason for this 1988 climb in respect is I started seeing from the bootleg film class that John Lynn was dead wrong in saying the class dissociated the power of believing from the written promises of God in His Word. I found MANY places where VPW specifically mentioned that believing really only works for written Bible promises or direct revelation.
Then the next 10 years my respect drifted all about this way and that, but I got a transcript of the class and was able to find things in it VERY FAST for the first time. I slowly started checking my memory and other people’s memory of the class and found out we were VERY deficient. My humility slowly went up, and my respect for VPW slowly went up.
Then in 1998 someone showed me some things I missed in the collaterals and things changed rapidly as I reviewed the thrilling introduction to the Bible they gave me in the early 1970s.
*/*/*
So, with all these ups and downs, I was constantly RE-EVALUATING what I knew about him, and from many perspectives, sometimes great respect and sometimes disgust, and all the shades (and colors) in between.
I think most of you folks went through the VERY EXCITING ride up to respect VPW, and then coasted horizontal and boring for a while like an on a carnival ride, and then SNAPPING downward to crash on the ground of zero respect, and continuing on, burrowing through the Earth to levels of anti-idol disrespect.
I think I got to know him MUCH better, so I can see why you say that part.
I suspect that you suspect that I was nearly always up high on that same carnival ride you were on, but no. I was on the up and down roller coaster that had many cycles, but never a ground penetrating crash.
Yeah, I think I did get to know him, but it was not as an idol at all. I still think he blew it on lots of things in my maturity now. After 1998 things got very simple and I studied the collaterals ONLY until 2018.
My respect for VPW was never the creepy type you probably suspect.
It was fine-tuned and tempered to be balanced and with careful weighing of facts from all sides and directions, and many times.
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Mike
Please read my posts a little more carefully.
I did actually include that possibility, but I used the word "borrow."
I know in my searching days, little transgressions like this were very possible. I was a gumshoe on a shoestring budget. But I never went so far as to kick a holy roller in the a$$.
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Mike
You are forgetting the focus here.
We are investigating T-Bone's investigation, remember?
I think it was shoddy and proved NOTHING, because he pretty much assumed what he ended up proving to himself, and to some others who applied zero critical thinking skills in trying to bust one sentence in WLIL.
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T-Bone
Always the same run around by Mike to blame-shift and cut his idol some slack
It can’t be wierwille’s fault - even though he created the corps program and ran it with a tight fist! You weren’t allowed to fart at corps night unless you could show line by line from PFAL, what’s available, how to receive it and what to do with it after you’ve farted it.
But don’t take my word for it - I only was in the way corps - so what do I know? Mike has actually NEVER BEEN in the way corps so believe him for sure!
True confession time: don’t listen to me as I go on and on about wierwille’s plagiarism and shoddy research skills . I could probably write 100 books on 100 of wierwille’s most hyped up bull-$hit from PFAL — don’t worry I’ll spare everyone the expense of buying my books of looooooong. zzzzZZZ
ZZzzzz dissertations with proper attribution - you can read it for free - subscribe to the Why PFAL sucks thread now - operators who operate all nine phone lines all the time are standing by! But don’t waste you time looking into the fatal errors and logical fallacies in wierwille’s theology that Grease Spotters have pointed out. You should listen to Mike who looked into all this stuff before wierwille even learned to copy Johnny Jump Up’s theme paper in the 5th grade .
Be smart listen to Mike! He knows all ! I wish I met Mike before I joined TWI then he would’ve helped me stay the course. He alone remained faithful to a plagiarizing-drunken-son-of-a-bi+ch-sexual-Predator-berating-self-inflating-ego-on-a-100-foot-pedestal-with-delusions-of-grandeur! Mike has stayed faithful to wierwille through thick and thin hijackings and pirating. Unlike those pesky Snappers - Mike has absorbed every single drop of wierwille’s Kool-Aid, made it his own - 2nd generation plagiarist - and then took it to some next level bull-$hit. Why did I even go int the corps ? Why did I even call Moody correspondence registrar’s office? I should have just believed Mike. In the beginning there was wierwille’s turd. And the turd become Mike’s god. And the turd was god. Happy is he that flusheth not the turd that wierwille $hitteth.
Edited by T-BoneLooooong edit
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Nathan_Jr
Don't get hung up on words, remember? Unless it matters. And it really always does.
Borrowing is NOT stealing. It's possible he borrowed. It's possible he stole.
Lying is NOT bullsh-itting. It's probable he lied. It's probable he bullsh-itted.
Word choice matters.
Now THIS sentence makes up for so many flubs. Thank you for saying so.
I'm actually not.
Yes.
That's exactly how Victor did it! Sounds like people are imitating victor. Sounds like they are standing on his shoulders and still can't see out over the rim of the soup bowl. That's what happens when you stand on the shoulders of a spiritual dwarf.... wait...
"Zero critical thinking skills".... what? You yourself said those were overrated skills. A pony trick, remember?
Oh, well. Thanks for playing, anyway. Three Unpainted Arizona points for you. Everyone gets something for playing. That way no one gets missed.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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Mike
You evidently do not read my posts to others, or maybe you have some kind of strong distraction going.
Have you ever noticed how often I have said the Corps was a big mistake?
Have you ever noticed how often I have used the phrase "Wierwille's Folly" to describe the Corps?
Where you been, man?
Get up to speed, a little bit at least, by doing a simple word search on "folly" and please get back to me with your apology.
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T-Bone
Well as usual I ignored your misdirect. I did a better search to prove my point!
I did a search of your comments containing the word “corps” just on this thread , and stopped at 4 since there were a bunch more on this very thread - of you talking $hit about stuff you know nothing about (which has never stopped you before) to shift the blame off of your precious lord and savior wierwille.
For yeah verily he is the prince of pieces of $hit that you call pearls. Let him that rightly-divideth understand. Mike will never deny his lord and savior wierwille the gore due to his bloody butchering of The Bible. It’s wierwille in you the hope of gory.
Mike projecting his own Nazi fears onto corps 5/5/2023 8:35 PM
Mike's uninformed observations of corps 11/30/2022 11:20 AM
Mike mentions corps Nazi element_Mike never been corps - geesh- what a pontificating idiot 11/16/2022 10:58 AM
Mike on corps Nazi rampage again - what a stupid ba$tard - 11/13/2022 12:31 PM
I guess I do owe you an apology Mike – I am sorry I underestimated your stupidity.
Edited by T-Boneas usually my Nazi editor was kaput
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So_crates
**Points over Mike's head**
Look, Mike, there goes the point.
I think what they're getting at is that you keep blaming the Corps for being the Corps, failing to realize the Corps is Saint Vic.
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Mike
I saw how, especially certain members of the Corps started behaving towards us non-Corps. Plus I read a lot about the Corps abuses, especially in TWI-1, and TWI-2 here at GreaseSpot from people who were in, and even some who participated in the abuses.
You forgot to include that.
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Nathan_Jr
The Corps? THE Corps?
No. HIS Corps. victor paul wierwille called it "my Corps."
So, THE Corps is neither scientifically precise nor mathematically exact. It should be called "victor's Corps" or "his Corps."
The abused becomes the abuser. The hazed becomes the hazer. victor paul wierwille didn't know how (H-O-W) to lead, and he certainly didn't know how (H-O-W) to teach leadership. When his Corps was abusive, they were imitating him, they were standing on his shoulders, they were following their "leader."
Nobody forgot.
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T-Bone
I don’t understand why you consider yourself an authority on something you’ve never participated in.
You criticize that which you know not.
I probably sat through more PFAL than you could shake a Vic at.
One thing I did not forget is that you don’t like to admit you’re ever wrong.
Besides being a slowpoke reading Undertow ( even my cat reads faster than you - - and he likes to dog-ear the pages) how much have you read on your bad boy wierwille abusing and exploiting the way corps - men and women - both sexual and mental cruelty?
do you know why your perspective sucks?
you stand atop wierwille’s high pedestal and look down on all the cult-survivors who no longer worship your master.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, cult-leaders, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
twice as helluva creep that wierwille was
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Rocky
Do I need to post another YouTube video of Professor Irwin Corey here?
Do you have any idea how freakin' outrageous it is to continue engaging with him at all?
If you want to address something to the great unwashed masses (or even if they wash regularly and just get an inkling to question the "greatness" of a certain cult), why not synthesize and summarize the essence of his arguments and claims in a succinct document and get it posted to GSC and ask the mods to make it not subject to inane ramblings? IOW, develop a document, post it or get it posted and not have it be subject to discussion... at least on the post or new thread on which it's initially posted.
For ANYONE to continue to pose the kind of question (even if not in the form of a question) you posed in what I quoted herein, is tantamount to continuing to do the same thing repeatedly and expect a different outcome.
Don't continue to criticize him. Criticize his bottom-line ideas.
Edited by RockyLink to comment
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WordWolf
The context is so obvious.
vpw was expounding on how the people at schools he went to were "top men in their fields" and how he got a superior education, oh, and how he took all of Moody's correspondence classes that he could. No comments on what he learned from any of them. no comments about what any covered, no substance from the entire experience. It's as if his entire exposure to Moody's correspondence classes started and ended with his claim that he took them. Then, as it turns out, Moody confirmed he didn't complete any of their classes- that was proven, and they are unable to prove he even signed up for any- because they didn't keep records of incomplete classes for decades.
So, zero impact on him except to say he took the classes, and documentation shows he completed NONE, and no documentation to show he even applied for one (which, by itself, proves nothing, but IN THE CONTEXT OF THE REST, says a lot.)
What conclusions would a reasonable person draw? Would they say Moody was lying or their records were in error? Would they say he started a bunch of their classes but didn't finish them? This is a man who was incredibly cheap financially. Would he PAY for a single class he didn't finish and get the credit? Would they say he was interested only in the study of the material? This was a man who went out of his way to AVOID studying material, and whose only strengths were in plagiarizing and in presenting sermons.
So, NO, this is not a man who would have taken their classes, let along left them incomplete. This is a man who would FAKE taking their classes, to claim to know the material, and claim the cachet of the classes. As above, who would check on a ridiculous lie like that? He faked his way through everything he could, and got the credentials he could buy.
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chockfull
You know Wierwilles idea for Marines being the pattern for his leadership group shows a remarkably similar mindset to Scientology and L Ron Hubbard’s “Sea Organization”.
This group originated when Scientology was about to lose its tax exempt status. Hubbard bought a large boat and took his organization into international waters to run Scientology from the boat.
All of the young men and women on that boat were the first “sea org” like Mike Rinder the co star of the Scientology expose along with Leah Remini.
The idea was the same. A group of absolutely committed non questioning zealots that would obey even the most ridiculous request and work for minimum wage.
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OldSkool
If my comment makes you uncomforatble I really don't know what to say. You talk like you know him, and no, Im not making some crazy way nased insult that you cohort with familiar spirits.
You present this nostalgic, romantiscised version of him that you have dreamed up from his public persona, that was vastly different from what has been reported on his private life from multiple people, including his own family members.
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OldSkool
You could revise this a little for accuracy: Some who participated in the abuses they learned from wierwille and became three times the child of hell that wierwille was. All martindale ever did was take what he learned from wierwille to another level, as was expected of him. Not that he's innocent in the matter.
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OldSkool
And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Thats not what the verse is saying, thos closest to Jesus (such as Peter, James, John, his closest disciples) followed him everywhere, were loyal except during the crucifixion, and became the center of the young Church on the day of pentecost leading the efforts with Christ as their head and we enjoy the fruits of their labors today.
They were offended at Jesus because he was just a carpenter. He had no worldly credentials to even speak the things he was speaking, even though God authorized him, sent him, etc. So, you are misquoting scripture that you misunderstand. Not trying to be persnickety, but I thought you would want to know since you are into biblical research.
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OldSkool
Uhh...you do realize that the way living in love is a blantant unapalogetic propaganda piece written by a young lady who presented a complete fabricated view of victor paul wierwille. I mean it's so bad that the way international have pulled the book and pretend it never existed. It was utter garbage, so much so, that I actually purchased a hard back copy cause, since the directors are embarassed of it then it must hold some good information on wierwille that they would love nothing more than to hide from the light of day.
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chockfull
Yes the idol of VPW is always whitewashed. I mean you can’t expect all these silent agreeing readers of Mikes to get on their knees before a dirty golden image?
Housekeeping we’ve got a visible stain on the Timothy statue. We need a polish rag over here stat!
Likewise we have a vilification of all Corps. And a false judgement that all Corps somehow “missed it” on the fundamentals of what they spent 2 years in a close governed environment studying in depth.
I really could care less if anything I post triggers some nonce who keeps talking down to me in a parent child tone.
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