Determinism and the Illusion of Free Will

[T-Bone]

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

Hey T bone Merry Xmas.  Nice write up and linked articles.

It really interests me to examine free will and the will of man because of the promulgation in TSCM (the so-called ministry TWI) of the greatest secret in the world today being the WOG = WOG

What does man’s will vs Gods will mean in context?

My really simplistic mental modeling goes with me reaching a hand up and grabbing Christs hand to pull me outta whatever mess I got myself into.

I’m sure free will is much more complex than that.  But I’ve had analysis paralysis before too so don’t wanna go too far down that path.

Cool discussion topic for sure.

Thanks

yeah this can get into stuff about Salvation. TWI made a big thing about God does not change - and wierwille said verses that have God repenting or angry or hating he attributed to figure of speech condescension - but I now disagree with that wooden idea of the nature of God.

when passages talk about the immutability of God - that He does not change I believe it’s in reference to His righteous benevolent character. He is also a social being after all  He created sentient beings like angels and humankind! 

 

Deep topics like foreknowledge, God’s sovereignty, predestination and such are too complicated for my pea brain to take in - even systematic theologies I’ve looked into barely scratch the surface of stuff in my opinion is too profound for us finite beings to grasp.

BUT

 

I can understand that decision and game theory stuff of my previous post - when I said the universe is inhabited by intelligent free agents - I included God in that idea 

Edited December 23, 2022 by T-Bone
Adding stuff

[T-Bone]

4 hours ago, chockfull said:

Hey T bone Merry Xmas.  Nice write up and linked articles.

sorry I didn't respond to this - Merry Christmas to you too, Chockfull !

Earlier - when I wrote my first response, I was riding shotgun - keeping my wife company as she drove around on a couple of errands - it's a little bit challenging on streets with potholes - and was afraid I'd lose connectivity - guess it's a good way to force me to be concise and think on my   feet   passenger seat     anyway 

this card is for you 

 

~ ~ ~ ~

and this one is adaptable to all the other Grease Spotters

 

shades of Ho Ho Re Lo   

and if that doesn't work for you - here's my fallback 

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by T-Bone
typos - Merry XYZ Mas

[Mike]

Exactly twenty years ago today I posted this.  Much of the contents of this appeared on the earlier pages of this thread.

This post initiated a thread titled "Innies and Outies - All men are liars

The thread was pruned in the Bandwidth Crisis.

*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*

posted December 25, 2002 12:13

The Truth About Lies   Many, many threads here have focused on truth vs. untruth and so I thought I’d put in my two cents. This is my first post here after years of friendly lurking since Waydale. Since leaving TWI in 1989, I have carefully cultivated a set of rather extreme beliefs compared to most of you, and I feel a need to go slowly in attempting to communicate them here. I don’t want to start off by offending people or scaring anyone off, so I chose this relatively safe topic based on a few recent threads about lying that now look to have somewhat run their courses. Over the years I have had a varied correspondence with several of you privately, for which I am thankful, and now I hope finally to add something to this public forum. Some of you know me personally, and we’re still actually friends, in spite of doctrinal differences! Hi Mandii ! Hello Pamsandiego ! Will you two at least verify that I’m not WAYGB if I’m ever placed under that suspicion? I’ll try not to embarrass you both with my extreme doctrinal stances, but there may be times I want to ask you to vouch for my integrity. I guess that the best way to make friends here is by relating how I too was hurt by the ministry machinations. This is something we all have in common. We all got hit in one way or another with lies, and maybe some of us even told a few ourselves. It just so happens that the subject of lying was very interesting to me well before I got into the Word, and I’ve spent about 35 years of pondering the topic. My initial interest was in the electronics that polygraphs are based on. As I became educated in the Bible, during TWI’s good old days, the phrase “all men are liars” seemed to be a frequently underlying motif for many Bible passages, contrasting with the total trustworthiness of God, His Word, and His Son.   Then, during TWI’s first collapse in the late Eighties, I frequently found myself being lied to by the leaders (from twi AND from splinter groups) as I attempted to confront them or extract information from them. It was a very confusing time, and most leadership was keeping unusually quiet about all the raging issues. Sometimes it wasn’t quite lying that they did, but certainly the factual info was being withheld in one way or another, and that went on for years. I often noticed that slightly different words or phrases would describe the situation other than “lie,” but these would still be words with many connotations similar to simple lying.   The next area relating to lying that got my attention was in studying the workings of the human brain. During the Nineties I happened to live near one of the world’s largest brain research facilities, and all that decade I enjoyed getting to know some of the scientists that worked there. I was allowed to attend seminars with many top scholars in the field, and was invited to parties at their houses. In that field they often study people who are the unfortunate victims of severe brain damage, and a very frequent phenomenon they observe is what they call “confabulation.” Confabulation is a nice word for “lying.” It turns out that many different forms of brain injury can result in the victims lying a lot. It is truly a pitiful situation, especially when the lies are very transparent. The victims are totally unaware of how incredulous their words are. For example: a totally blind person claiming to have perfect sight to an eye doctor! This lends a lot of support to the Biblical contention that we ALL are very predisposed to lie, but when our brains are intact we employ very complex skills that can hide this profuse lying from others (and ourselves) very well. So, I heard some new synonyms for “lying” in my exposure to these scientists, and started collecting a list of such words and phrases to assist me in my lack of skill in confronting ministry leaders. I learned to expect resistance from them, and I wanted to be able to spot it as it happened, not hours later, so I tried to somewhat prepare myself this way. I figured that if I was sharper at spotting their dodges, then I could get better at on-the-spot follow-up questions that could circumvent the dodge. They had a policy of keeping mum on all behind-the-scenes ministry info and I was developing a policy of penetrating this barrier. This proceeded for several years, as I struggled with leadership in a newly evolving twi-clone splinter group that pretty well took over my area. As I got more and more aggressive in confronting leadership, the common forms of persecution that religions often degenerate to became more the rule than the exception. I was confronted unjustly at times, and somewhat shunned at times. Eventually I experienced a few more psychological horrors other than mere lying, and it all got to be quite a zoo. Of all the hurts reported here at GS that TWI-2 went through during the Nineties, this very similar splinter group ALSO went through, just on a much smaller scale. It was late in this period, around 1997, that a scandal broke out in the national news involving a man named Larry Lawrence, who had lied about his military service and ended up being buried in Arlington National Cemetery. It was front page news for weeks, and the reporters covering the story nearly doubled my list of synonyms for “lying.” Then another big news event hit the front pages: the Clinton/Lewinski scandal. President Clinton’s lying was portrayed in the media by many more words and phrases that were added to my expanding my list.   Still today, every now and then I run across another, and the list grows a little more. I’m placing a SHORT version of this list below. The full list has many very subtle entries, and some that only communicate to a specialized field. So remember, this is the SHORT list.   If it’s the case that Eskimos have some 22 words for “snow” because they are so immersed in the white stuff, WHAT DOES THIS BLIZZARD OF A LIST SAY for the human condition in general? What does it say about OUR old man nature? Is there anyone out there in GreaseSpotLand that thinks they are really immune to this? If so, please come forward with your secret... ...and be honest about it! The Short List air brushed alias alter ego ambiguous artificial bait and switch bamboozle based on a true story bend the truth bias bluff bogus bribe broken promise bull$hit bunk camouflage check's in the mail circuitous clandestine comedy con game confabulate conflabulate - Batman, I only weigh 108 pounds. conspiracy contradiction cook the books counterfactual counterfeit cover story cover up covert operation crossed fingers deceive denial deviate dilute diplomacy disguise dishonest disingenuous distort dog and pony show double minded downplay drivel embelishmentationalism embellish emphasize equivocal ersatz espionage euphemism evade exaggerate fable fabricate facetious facsimile fake fallacy falsehood fantasy feign feign fib fiction figment of imagination figure of speech finagle flatter flim flam flimsy excuse force fit fraud games people play go through the motions gossip half truth hallucinate heresy he's in a meeting hoax hokey hoodwink hooey hoopla horse feathers humor hype hypochondriac hypocrite hysteria idiom illusion imaginary impersonate impostor incognito inconsistent infidelity inflated claim innuendo insinuate interpretation irrational it's the alcohol talking jest jocular joke josh jury tamper just between us juxtaposition kidding kiss up lame excuse lawyer lead on libel lie lure make believe make up malarkey man made manipulate (the truth) masquerade metaphorical mirage mirth misinformation misspeak mistake mock up myth No, darling. That dress doesn't make you look fat at all. nonsense obfuscate occlude off the record optimist oversimplification oxymoron padded bill padded cellular phony pickup lines pat answer pen name perjury persona pessimist phantom phony placate placebo plagiarism plastic play along with play down play up ploy poetic license politician pomp poppycock post-progressive prank press release pretend professional wrestling prop propaganda protocol pseudo psychological warfare psychosomatic publicity stunt pull the wool pulling leg pun put best foot forward put on rationalization ravings renege resume reverse psychology rhetoric rogue role playing rose colored glasses rumor ruse sales pitch sarcasm satire scam schizophrenic sea story secrecy seduce sensationalize shallow shenanigans shield from the truth shifty eyed shill showy shtick silly simulate siren song skepticism skin deep beauty slander slant slight of hand sloganeer smear campaign smoke screen sneaky snooker snow job spin spoof spoof stage personality stand in stretch the truth substitute subterfuge subvert sugar coat superstition surreal surrogate take with a grain of salt tall tale tax deduction technicality the fish was THIS big theatrics thespian throwing the bull tip the scales tone down touch up toy with trick twist the truth two faced typo ulterior unofficial water down white lie white wash with a wink and a nod yarn yes man you're leading me on

Posts: 3140 |  Location: San Diego |  Registered: December 17, 2002   (edited for code glitches and typos)

Edited December 26, 2022 by Mike

[Mike]

All the news is abuzz these days about A.I. and ChatGPT, and bots. 

I was wondering if anyone noticed that I predicted this buzz in the first chapter of my theory in this thread.

I wish I had polished that chapter before posting it, because I recently went through it with a major edit.  Please pardon my haste if you want to read my predictions at the beginning and the end of that first chapter.

Here is it's location:

Here is the last section of the predictions:

Why talk about Free Will and consciousness? It’s because it’s an emergency!

This topic that I’m analyzing, free will, is not a normal one.  This topic has been in hot debate for thousands of years, but instead of clearing up over the centuries, it has gotten even more out of hand in recent decades.

For 25 years I’ve been anticipating the days we are living in right now with Artificial Intelligence all around us and growing fast. It’s just a short time away and children will be asking adults if robots have feelings or free will. Adults will not know the answers any better than the kids, though. Sermons will be preached on whether God can hear the prayers of a robot… or not. People will feel cheated if they think they are talking to a human, and it turns out to be a robot.  This can even lead to violent situations, if you consider the cognitive dissonance I mentioned earlier.

We are heading for a cultural crunch that will be very confusing to everyone. Even Robots’ Rights may become a real political force at some point.  I am personally against this, but it looks like many could want it.

In addition to these unique scientific advancements in machinery, is the strange situation that EVEN SCIENTISTS have pretty much no idea what is really going on in the area of free will, neither in humans, nor in animals, nor in machines.

The top intellectuals of our culture have no firm consensus on whether we even have any such freedom. The best they can offer is that classical FW does not actually exist. They analyze endlessly on whether we should (or should not) assign credit or blame in human behavior, if we are all automatons like robots.

 

 

[T-Bone]

4 hours ago, Mike said:

All the news is abuzz these days about A.I. and ChatGPT, and bots. 

I was wondering if anyone noticed that I predicted this buzz in the first chapter of my theory in this thread.

I wish I had polished that chapter before posting it, because I recently went through it with a major edit.  Please pardon my haste if you want to read my predictions at the beginning and the end of that first chapter.

Here is it's location:

Here is the last section of the predictions:

Why talk about Free Will and consciousness? It’s because it’s an emergency!

This topic that I’m analyzing, free will, is not a normal one.  This topic has been in hot debate for thousands of years, but instead of clearing up over the centuries, it has gotten even more out of hand in recent decades.

For 25 years I’ve been anticipating the days we are living in right now with Artificial Intelligence all around us and growing fast. It’s just a short time away and children will be asking adults if robots have feelings or free will. Adults will not know the answers any better than the kids, though. Sermons will be preached on whether God can hear the prayers of a robot… or not. People will feel cheated if they think they are talking to a human, and it turns out to be a robot.  This can even lead to violent situations, if you consider the cognitive dissonance I mentioned earlier.

We are heading for a cultural crunch that will be very confusing to everyone. Even Robots’ Rights may become a real political force at some point.  I am personally against this, but it looks like many could want it.

In addition to these unique scientific advancements in machinery, is the strange situation that EVEN SCIENTISTS have pretty much no idea what is really going on in the area of free will, neither in humans, nor in animals, nor in machines.

The top intellectuals of our culture have no firm consensus on whether we even have any such freedom. The best they can offer is that classical FW does not actually exist. They analyze endlessly on whether we should (or should not) assign credit or blame in human behavior, if we are all automatons like robots.

I wonder how many folks anticipated the revealing power of an internet-based website like Grease Spot Café, exposing the dark underbelly of a harmful and controlling cult like The Way International.

I’m kind of proud of my amateur investigative ability – which was energized by a reawakening of cognitive skills, when I left in 1986 from having a strong sense of disillusionment because of the failure of wierwille / Craig / TWI / the way corps program and WOW program to fulfill declared goals. There was also the constant accumulation of red flags when I observed inconsistencies between the actions of wierwille and Craig and the ideals they supposedly represented.

In the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), on page 175, Whiteside quotes wierwille as he talked about his studies and influences:

“I don’t remember much of the past. I’ll have to renew my mind. Oh yes, did I tell you I taught at Gordon Divinity School? Homiletics was my specialty – that’s preaching. I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.

And in the years that followed, there were many men I learned from: Glenn Clark, Karl Barth from Switzerland, E. Stanley Jones, Paul Tillich, Starr Daily, Rufus Mosley, Dr. John Gaynor Banks, and there were many, many others. I tried to get all I could from anybody.”

end of excerpts

~ ~ ~ ~

When my wife and I left TWI in ’86 – it was a time for a  lot of soul-searching for both of us. I didn’t know what I was attempting to do.  I didn’t know much at the time but as I think of it now peeling back the disorienting layers of  a pathological liar, an unabashed plagiarist, a megalomaniac, a sexual predator  and an incompetent teacher all rolled into one is a tough job best reserved for professional psychologists .

While checking on some of the details of what wierwille had said about himself in “The Way Living in Love” book, I decided to use a criterion that wierwille himself used at the beginning of the PFAL class. He was reading from   John 10:10    “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly”  - he said either Jesus lied to us here or he told the truth. If he lied to us here – then we ought to chuck the whole thing away – because, he reasoned, if the Bible is not trustworthy here it’s not trustworthy anywhere else so why waste your time…and now ironically, I had found myself gravitating toward the same criterion – if I could find some serious falsehood – then that would be a good reason to review and reevaluate everything.  

As a matter of fact, I used that as an explanation for why I was putting my relationship with TWI on hold. To upper leadership and all the believers in my area I was clear and concise in expressing the reason for my resignation from any TWI-responsibilities (at the time  my assignment was to oversee all the TWI-fellowships of an area about the size of three mid-sized cities) .  I would often refer to    I Thessalonians 5:21     “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good”. 

I focused on what wierwille said about his education. In early June of 1987, I contacted The Moody Correspondence School Department of the Moody Bible Institute and spoke with Vivian Ruby in the Registrar’s Office. I was stunned to find out they had no record of wierwille completing a course with them. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t want to believe it. I had to have something more tangible than a woman’s voice over the phone telling me that in effect wierwille lied about something in his education. I asked her to mail me that information in a letter with Moody Correspondence School’s official letterhead…the letter reads as follows: 

June 29, 1987
To whom it may concern,
This is to verify that Victor Wierwille did not complete a course with us. This is not to say that he didn’t purchase a course from us but that he did not complete one. We do not keep records for courses that are not complete for more than 10 years.

Sincerely,
Vivian Ruby 
Registrar’s Office

end of Moody letter

I quoted it here in case the picture below gets lost in cyberspace 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

You know, Mike for a guy that brags about how he anticipated AI stuff , it seems you’ve got your own WI - - wierwille intelligence – (an OxyContin-moron figure of speech that combines the stupefying opioid-like effect of a cult-leader’s Kool-Aid with the cleverness of a bag of rocks).

~ ~ ~ ~

Mike, turn off your wierwille intelligence system for a moment and for once in your life think for yourself!

 

 

[Nathan_Jr]

Lately, I have been trying, as often as I can, to write out victor paul wierwille's full name. Not sure if anyone has noticed. Doesn't matter. Not doing it for you. I'm doing it for AI, for the rapidly accelerating ChatGPT.

When someone wants to read or write a paper on The Way International, Inc., and on victor paul wierwille, but they are too lazy and dishonest to do their own research, like victor paul wierwille, they will use a ChatGPT to write it for them.

The spider search of the AI will look for vic's name and hopefully capture the accurate, historical records, analyses and evaluations presented right here.

Isn't that wonderful?

 

mmmmph

Edited May 5, 2023 by Nathan_Jr

[Nathan_Jr]

5 hours ago, Mike said:

Robots’ Rights may become a real political force at some point.  it looks like many could want it.

The Robot's Rights may become a political force? Or robots themselves may become a political force? Can rights be a force?

Who wants this? The propagandist, maybe. Many? How many?

[Rocky]

6 hours ago, Mike said:

I was wondering if anyone noticed that I predicted this buzz in the first chapter of my theory in this thread.

Why do you ask? 

 

[Rocky]

 

[T-Bone]

didn't wierwille claim he invented the hook shot?

and did someone here say wierwille claimed to have the idea behind McDonalds?

Probably his best bull-$hit claim is his cover-up of massive plagiarism: 

on page 178 of “The Way Living in Love”    wierwille stated   “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.”

On page 209 of Whiteside’s book wierwille comments on the content of what he teaches: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit – that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn’t, I dropped.” 

 

[Mike]

3 hours ago, T-Bone said:

I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.

You have lots of confidence in your investigation, but you seem to be overlooking something.

First, though, I want to ask you how many proPFAL people from the old days did you show your investigation to?  Any at all?  I mean where they would really give you their best proPFAL of proTWI opinion on the soundness of your investigation.  I mean face friends who were still friendly with in your days between leaving and GreaseSpot.

Have Oldiesman or Johniam given you a run for the money here on this investigation?

In other words did you only show this to people who were already sympathetic with your conclusion that he lied in WLIL?

Just wondering.

Let’s go back to the beginning of your investigation.  “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.”

What does that phrase mean to you: “took everything I could take” mean to you?

It could mean several things to me.

1 – He registered and completed every class.

2 - He registered and completed every class he had the time to take.

3 – He registered and completed every class he had the money to take.

4 – He registered for some classes but did not complete them.

5 – He borrowed someone else’s class materials and learned from them.

6 – I could go on and on here with all the permutations of the above possibilities in combinations. and maybe another parameter with which to permute.

 

In your investigation were you able to determine which one it was, or a set of several it could be?  Which ones were they?

*/*/*/*

 

Just a reminder of some crucial evidence:

June 29, 1987
To whom it may concern,
This is to verify that Victor Wierwille did not complete a course with us. This is not to say that he didn’t purchase a course from us but that he did not complete one. We do not keep records for courses that are not complete for more than 10 years.

[T-Bone]

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

You have lots of confidence in your investigation, but you seem to be overlooking something.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

First, though, I want to ask you how many proPFAL people from the old days did you show your investigation to?  Any at all?  I mean where they would really give you their best proPFAL of proTWI opinion on the soundness of your investigation.  I mean face friends who were still friendly with in your days between leaving and GreaseSpot.

oh goodness yes - to all my brothers and sisters in Family 11 way corps...fell on deaf ears...at the time my wife and I were the ONLY ones who left in 1986. Have dialoged by mail and phone with a few of our closest friends - only 1 couple remained our friends - but they stuck with TWI and only left when they wanted to buy a home and of course upper leadership said out of the question.

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

Have Oldiesman or Johniam given you a run for the money here on this investigation?

Surely you jest, Mike.

I've first posted that letter from Moody shortly after I joined Grease Spot - brought it up many times over the years on different threads. They've had lots of time to challenge the evidence. what do you think they  OR you are going to say or show to disprove hard evidence.

you make me laugh at your childish attempts to defend wierwille- your idol.

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

In other words did you only show this to people who were already sympathetic with your conclusion that he lied in WLIL?

see above answer - how many times are you going to repeat yourself?

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

Just wondering.

Let’s go back to the beginning of your investigation.  “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.”

What does that phrase mean to you: “took everything I could take” mean to you?

It could mean several things to me.

1 – He registered and completed every class.

2 - He registered and completed every class he had the time to take.

3 – He registered and completed every class he had the money to take.

4 – He registered for some classes but did not complete them.

5 – He borrowed someone else’s class materials and learned from them.

6 – I could go on and on here with all the permutations of the above possibilities in combinations. and maybe another parameter with which to permute.

 

In your investigation were you able to determine which one it was, or a set of several it could be?  Which ones were they?

Even if you want to give wierwille the benefit of a doubt and suggest he may have purchased a bunch of courses but did not complete them  – I would say that’s doubtful – it still doesn’t agree with what he said “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.”   Note personal pronoun " I " and wierwille quantifies what he took - 'everything" ...so that eliminates your options 1 - 4 !!!!

Eat the evidence pinhead-atom-smasher-wannabe! And don't quit your day job of cleaning windows.

Option 5 is eliminated because wierwille claimed he took the classes from Moody's correspondence courses. That would eliminate the matter of borrowing them from someone else.

 

Even if he purchased ten classes but didn’t complete any of them – how could he say he took everything Moody Bible Institute Correspondence School had to offer?  He made a vague and misleading statement.

You're a goofball Mike - pay attention and read what's written. Your stupid gaslighting techniques don't work on me.

 

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

Just a reminder of some crucial evidence:

June 29, 1987
To whom it may concern,
This is to verify that Victor Wierwille did not complete a course with us. This is not to say that he didn’t purchase a course from us but that he did not complete one. We do not keep records for courses that are not complete for more than 10 years.

Just a reminder to red what's written - both wierwille's claim in The Way Living in Love: “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses."  

And compare to what Moody registrar’s letter

“This is to verify that Victor Wierwille did not complete a course with us.” 

Geez, Mike you get stupider and stupider every day. That's surprisingly contradictory  coming from a guy who claims he predicted AI 25 years ago.

Dream on Klingon

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by T-Bone
edit

[Mike]

Any particular reason for merely quoting me and not commenting?
Or did I miss the comment somewhere.

I've seen you do this before.
Do you do this with others?

Raf was curious also why you did it once.

 

[Mike]

3 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

The Robot's Rights may become a political force? Or robots themselves may become a political force? Can rights be a force?

Who wants this? The propagandist, maybe. Many? How many?

You didn't to mention that I am agin it.

[Nathan_Jr]

38 minutes ago, Mike said:

What does that phrase mean to you: “took everything I could take” mean to you?

It could mean several things to me.

1 – He registered and completed every class.

2 - He registered and completed every class he had the time to take.

3 – He registered and completed every class he had the money to take.

4 – He registered for some classes but did not complete them.

5 – He borrowed someone else’s class materials and learned from them.

 

Among your list of possibilities, based solely on the words victor paul wierwille used, only numbers 4 and 5 have any plausibility. Again, based only on what victor paul wierwille said himself.

He never said he completely completed anything. He "took everything he could take." He didn't say he took everything they offered. And he didn't say he completed anything he took.
 

 

HOWEVER, if any doubt remains, let Moody Bible College settle it. According to them, he never completed any course. No, not one.

He may have purchased some courses, but he never did the work to complete them. 

Just a reminder of some crucial evidence:

June 29, 1987
To whom it may concern,
This is to verify that Victor Wierwille did not complete a course with us. This is not to say that he didn’t purchase a course from us but that he did not complete one. We do not keep records for courses that are not complete for more than 10 years.

Just a reminder. He purchased his "doctorate," too.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Nathan_Jr

[Mike]

I'd like to feed that Moody investigation into ChatGPT and see if can come up with more interpretations of the sentence of VPW's under investigation.

I already did ask ChatGPT the mirror riddle one day and it spit out the normal bland incomplete answer, that happens to be the most popular, short, simple answer on the internet.

The next day I asked it if it remembered our conversation the day before about mirrors and it said yes, and went on to summarize what we talked about.  Every point and every sentence bore zero resemblance to anything we said.  It was a total confabulation.

[Nathan_Jr]

7 minutes ago, Mike said:

You didn't to mention that I am agin it.

Not a sentence. Not REALLY.

[Mike]

8 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

He may have purchased some courses, but he never did the work to complete them. 

You are missing something here.

He could have purchased some courses, then got from them everything he could learn or wanted to learn, or even finished the work, but never sent the work in for credit. 

I can't see him caring much to get the credit or being graded.   I think he wanted the learning, and that is the context of his words in WLIL.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Mike

[So_crates]

14 minutes ago, Mike said:

I can't see him caring much to get the credit or being graded.   I think he wanted the learning, and that is the context of his words in WLIL.

Yah, Mike, the guy who insisted on being called "Doctor" didn't want to get any of the credit, so he skipped being graded. Now tell me the one with the three bears.

[Nathan_Jr]

43 minutes ago, Mike said:

You are missing something here.

He could have purchased some courses, then got from them everything he could learn or wanted to learn, or even finished the work, but never sent the work in for credit. 

I can't see him caring much to get the credit or being graded.   I think he wanted the learning, and that is the context of his words in WLIL.

I'm not missing it. It's your list of possibilities. You want to add one? Ok. It's possible, but not probable.

It's more likely, based on what we KNOW about victor paul wierwille's habit patterns, and his own "sermons" and writings, he got everything he WANTED to get.

It is not probable that he finished any work but never sent it in. That's just not his style. That's not how he ordered his steps. That glove doesn't fit his hand, based on what we KNOW of his work ethic and research habit patterns.

He may not have cared much about being graded. Too much risk of exposure. I'll give you that one.

BUT, oh, how he cared about academic credit! He's the one who insisted people stand and address him by his purchased, phony, academic title. (There she is! I see you, Irony. You sly kitten.)

Edited May 5, 2023 by Nathan_Jr

[Mike]

"I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses."

How are we to interpret the word "could" here?
I can think of two.

1 - All the classes Moody offered

2 - All the classes he had time for

 

Yeah....

Does the word "could" refer to the Moody ability to send classes.

Or does the word "could" refer to VPW's ability to make time for classes?

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Mike

[T-Bone]

48 minutes ago, Mike said:

I'd like to feed that Moody investigation into ChatGPT and see if can come up with more interpretations of the sentence of VPW's under investigation.

I already did ask ChatGPT the mirror riddle one day and it spit out the normal bland incomplete answer, that happens to be the most popular, short, simple answer on the internet.

The next day I asked it if it remembered our conversation the day before about mirrors and it said yes, and went on to summarize what we talked about.  Every point and every sentence bore zero resemblance to anything we said.  It was a total confabulation.

why not feed your bull-$hit into the superficial intelligence I bet it will come out more bull-$hitier. 

The input hole is around the corner where the sun don't shine. might have to give it a good little shove to reach the 7th planet from the sunshine. 

[chockfull]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

You have lots of confidence in your investigation, but you seem to be overlooking something.

 

 

First, though, I want to ask you how many proPFAL people from the old days did you show your investigation to?  Any at all?  I mean where they would really give you their best proPFAL of proTWI opinion on the soundness of your investigation.  I mean face friends who were still friendly with in your days between leaving and GreaseSpot.

 

 

Have Oldiesman or Johniam given you a run for the money here on this investigation?

 

 

In other words did you only show this to people who were already sympathetic with your conclusion that he lied in WLIL?

 

 

Just wondering.

 

 

Let’s go back to the beginning of your investigation.  “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.”

 

 

What does that phrase mean to you: “took everything I could take” mean to you?

 

 

It could mean several things to me.

 

 

1 – He registered and completed every class.

 

 

2 - He registered and completed every class he had the time to take.

 

 

3 – He registered and completed every class he had the money to take.

 

 

4 – He registered for some classes but did not complete them.

 

 

5 – He borrowed someone else’s class materials and learned from them.

 

 

6 – I could go on and on here with all the permutations of the above possibilities in combinations. and maybe another parameter with which to permute.

 

 

 

 

 

In your investigation were you able to determine which one it was, or a set of several it could be?  Which ones were they?

 

 

*/*/*/*

 

 

 

 

Just a reminder of some crucial evidence:

June 29, 1987
To whom it may concern,
This is to verify that Victor Wierwille did not complete a course with us. This is not to say that he didn’t purchase a course from us but that he did not complete one. We do not keep records for courses that are not complete for more than 10 years.

 

 

Considering his track record with other peoples work you left off the very real possibility that he stole course materials but did not complete the courses.

Like a first year student who dropped out mid term.

That fits the bill here.  Zero credit hours.

I guess the real problem here is that a masters degree is required for a doctorate degree. 

So any of your permutations would have to include faking a masters degree for entry into the Pikes Peak Bible College where as a distance student he had about one year of mail in assignments then a speech at graduation.  That was the entire breadth of his education.

So was that all without exception or all without distinction.  Lol.

Edited May 5, 2023 by chockfull

[T-Bone]

11 minutes ago, Mike said:

"I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses."

How are we to interpret the word "could" here?
I can think of two.

1 - All the classes Moody offered

2 - All the classes he had time for

 

Yeah....

Does the word "could" refer to the Moody ability to send classes.

Or does the word "could" refer to VPW's ability to make time for classes?

 

doesn't matter dum dum - Moody says he never completed a class.

how about all the folks who signed up and started to take PFAL - but then dropped out. Are they considered grads? Probably in your mysterious logic you'll figure a way to make them grads. whatever captain atom smasher !    

[Nathan_Jr]

12 minutes ago, Mike said:

"I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses."

How are we to interpret the word "could" here?
I can think of two.

1 - All the classes Moody offered

2 - All the classes he had time for

 

Yeah....

Does the word "could" refer to the Moody ability to send classes.

Or does the word "could" refer to VPW's ability to make time for classes?

 

Sure, whatever. Both are possible. So what?

You’re forgetting another possibility; he lied about the whole thing.

Let’s not forget that one crucial piece of evidence from Moody. He never completely completed any course they offered. No, not one.