Whoa...I posted that twice so it's established....
Well…you may be in legal jeopardy- just like when there’s two wills - when there’s two Shontas you can a$$-ume one of them is bound to be contested…bring in the lawyers and may the best Shonta win!
Well…you may be in legal jeopardy- just like when there’s two wills - when there’s two Shontas you can a$$-ume one of them is bound to be contested…bring in the lawyers and may the best Shonta win!
Holy sheep-shonta...it's the law of bullshonta in full effect! Whoa.
I see great clarity (regular math?) when I apply Romans 7 to my life, and hold myself responsible for my actions.
Things get real fuzzy trying to hold others responsible, but it can be done in an approximate sense. The judicial systems of the world are pretty clumsy, but it's better to have them than to live in anarchy.
Romans 7 is a personal section. It applies to following after the virtue of the new man nature.
Not meant to be applied to analyze other Christians and their walks. Only a personal contrast. In this you could say there is a parallel fable in folklore - the two wolves story from native folklore comes to mind. What do you feed?
With others the only barometer is God looks on the heart Jesus says look at the fruit. What is the end result product over time? No man can escape the harvest of what he has planted.
Did you purposely miss the part where I said their attitudes of great irresponsibility disgust me? Or was that just a sloppy oversight on your part?
Some of the websites that promote the idea of there being no free will tend to attract irresponsible people who seek justification for their behavior.
They are heavily populated with people that argue precisely that: no blame and no credit.
The posters that focus on the "no credit" part are often Communists.
Many of them are young, European political activists and they are grinding an axe at the world's judicial systems. Some of them are just misfits and trying to justify their lives of failure. Very bitter people, and full of glee to find a website that promotes the idea that there is no free will.
Their motives in debating there is no free will are easy to see, and I find it disgusting.
I do believe in a type of free will
where we are responsible for our behavior,
and we can TRY to hold others
to be similarly responsible.
A cornerstone of determinism is that the universe is like a clock. God just wound it up and let it do its thing.
If there is no free will, then there is no control over self. If there is no control over self, how do you hold anybody responsible for anything?
After all, they were just following the dictates of the wound clock.
A cornerstone of determinism is that the universe is like a clock. God just wound it up and let it do its thing.
If there is no free will, then there is no control over self. If there is no control over self, how do you hold anybody responsible for anything?
After all, they were just following the dictates of the wound clock.
Right. Everything is caused. Everything. And there is nothing that can be anything other than what it is. This even applies to choices and decisions.
I beleeeve, because it’s very difficult to know, that Mike is talking about a completely different determinism. A mathematical one. One that affects hypothetical trains. One that doesn’t fit like a glove onto this discussion.
And his free will definition, though novel, even cute, is a deeply personal and imaginative one. Again, causing discord in the dialogue.
A cornerstone of determinism is that the universe is like a clock. God just wound it up and let it do its thing.
If there is no free will, then there is no control over self. If there is no control over self, how do you hold anybody responsible for anything?
After all, they were just following the dictates of the wound clock.
I think I can agree with every point there.
The big question is how can free will happen in such a deterministic universe, and that is what I was DIRECTLY addressing.
My inclination is to say that the details that are bound up in the classical definition of free will make it impossible to be the actual biological mechanism we have giving us some freedom.
It really is a broken definition, so I set out to fix it by making it weaker, a little delayed, and deterministic.
The same way a sailboat enjoys some freedom from the determinism of wind direction, we can enjoy some freedom from determinism of our brain chemistry and learning.
Right, and thank God we have a biological mechanism that has the ability to cause actions that can free us from bad determining causes, by being stronger than the bad causes.
Right, and thank God we have a biological mechanism that has the ability to cause actions that can free us from bad determining causes, by being stronger than the bad causes.
Can this biological mechanism free us from good determining causes?
The big question is how can free will happen in such a deterministic universe, and that is what I was DIRECTLY addressing.
My inclination is to say that the details that are bound up in the classical definition of free will make it impossible to be the actual biological mechanism we have giving us some freedom.
It really is a broken definition, so I set out to fix it by making it weaker, a little delayed, and deterministic.
The same way a sailboat enjoys some freedom from the determinism of wind direction, we can enjoy some freedom from determinism of our brain chemistry and learning.
So, what you're saying is, even though you can't hold a person responsible because they have no control of self, you will hold a person responsible. An apparent contradiction.
So, what you're saying is, even though you can't hold a person responsible because they have no control of self, you will hold a person responsible. An apparent contradiction.
Yes, that would be a contradiction.
I don't take the position you described.
My position is that it is DIFFICULT to hold someone responsible, that courts can be clumsy, but that it should be attempted anyway.
It has never been my position that "they have no control of self."
That is just the opposite of my position.
Where are you getting these erroneous takes on my position?
It's refreshing to see you agree with someone besides yourself...
So basically you have a theory that u like and everything else must fit into that theory...wierwillian practices 101. You really don't see how bad twi thinking is crippling your critical thinking skills or lack thereof.
The big question is how can free will happen in such a deterministic universe, and that is what I was DIRECTLY addressing.
My inclination is to say that the details that are bound up in the classical definition of free will make it impossible to be the actual biological mechanism we have giving us some freedom.
It really is a broken definition, so I set out to fix it by making it weaker, a little delayed, and deterministic.
The same way a sailboat enjoys some freedom from the determinism of wind direction, we can enjoy some freedom from determinism of our brain chemistry and learning.
FYI to all Grease Spotters, I saw a bunch of holes in this post of Mike’s – and I almost responded with constructive criticism and/or corrections– but caught myself mid-draft and decided not to – on the sneaky suspicion that Mike is inclined to be lazy, I tend to think he’s just throwing ahodge-podgeofbull-Shonta, pseudoscienceandtechnical terms against the wall to see what sticks ( usually it doesn’t ) and reformulates some of the bull-Shonta, pseudoscience and technical terms according to feedback/input he gets from Grease Spotters. Woe is me – I feel so used. there there T-Bone, no sense in playing the victim card - nobody cares
It's refreshing to see you agree with someone besides yourself...
So basically you have a theory that u like and everything else must fit into that theory...wierwillian practices 101. You really don't see how bad twi thinking is crippling your critical thinking skills or lack thereof.
I think most of the bad thinking of twi was due to the Way Corps Nazi element and the TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions), and I thankfully avoided most of that.
I think most of the bad thinking of twi was due to the Way Corps Nazi element and the TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions), and I thankfully avoided most of that.
No u didn't. Your posts prove that. You really do not have a clear picture of yourself and the things affecting you. A little leaven leaveneth the entire lump. Your in denial.
I think most of the bad thinking of twi was due to the Way Corps Nazi element and the TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions), and I thankfully avoided most of that.
I beg to differ - the way corps Nazi training camp was created and run by mini-Hitler wierwille !
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OldSkool
I do want to address this Mike. You constantly come at me like I have forgotten, or have been talked out of the truth of wierwille, or that I just don't understand where you are coming from. Personall
waysider
This right here. If you're unable to define and regulate your control factors and variables, your research is worthless. The best you could hope for would be an observational analysis of your collecte
Charity
I agree with So_Crates when he said "Here's a wild idea: why don't YOU become meek and I'll tell you about all the fruit in my life since I stopped making PLAF the center of my life." There have
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OldSkool
Well likely just different types of shonta...
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OldSkool
Whoa...I posted that twice so it's established....
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
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T-Bone
Well…you may be in legal jeopardy- just like when there’s two wills - when there’s two Shontas you can a$$-ume one of them is bound to be contested…bring in the lawyers and may the best Shonta win!
Edited by T-BoneTypo creepo
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OldSkool
Holy sheep-shonta...it's the law of bullshonta in full effect! Whoa.
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T-Bone
Are you trying to pull the sheep-shonta over my eyes?
hey we’re getting close to ho ho relo season…and wierwille said Ba Ba humbug
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Nathan_Jr
Is there any other type?
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chockfull
Romans 7 is a personal section. It applies to following after the virtue of the new man nature.
Not meant to be applied to analyze other Christians and their walks. Only a personal contrast. In this you could say there is a parallel fable in folklore - the two wolves story from native folklore comes to mind. What do you feed?
With others the only barometer is God looks on the heart Jesus says look at the fruit. What is the end result product over time? No man can escape the harvest of what he has planted.
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So_crates
A cornerstone of determinism is that the universe is like a clock. God just wound it up and let it do its thing.
If there is no free will, then there is no control over self. If there is no control over self, how do you hold anybody responsible for anything?
After all, they were just following the dictates of the wound clock.
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Nathan_Jr
Right. Everything is caused. Everything. And there is nothing that can be anything other than what it is. This even applies to choices and decisions.
I beleeeve, because it’s very difficult to know, that Mike is talking about a completely different determinism. A mathematical one. One that affects hypothetical trains. One that doesn’t fit like a glove onto this discussion.
And his free will definition, though novel, even cute, is a deeply personal and imaginative one. Again, causing discord in the dialogue.
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Mike
I think I can agree with every point there.
The big question is how can free will happen in such a deterministic universe, and that is what I was DIRECTLY addressing.
My inclination is to say that the details that are bound up in the classical definition of free will make it impossible to be the actual biological mechanism we have giving us some freedom.
It really is a broken definition, so I set out to fix it by making it weaker, a little delayed, and deterministic.
The same way a sailboat enjoys some freedom from the determinism of wind direction, we can enjoy some freedom from determinism of our brain chemistry and learning.
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Mike
Right, and thank God we have a biological mechanism that has the ability to cause actions that can free us from bad determining causes, by being stronger than the bad causes.
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Nathan_Jr
Can this biological mechanism free us from good determining causes?
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So_crates
So, what you're saying is, even though you can't hold a person responsible because they have no control of self, you will hold a person responsible. An apparent contradiction.
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Mike
Yes, that would be a contradiction.
I don't take the position you described.
My position is that it is DIFFICULT to hold someone responsible, that courts can be clumsy, but that it should be attempted anyway.
It has never been my position that "they have no control of self."
That is just the opposite of my position.
Where are you getting these erroneous takes on my position?
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OldSkool
It's refreshing to see you agree with someone besides yourself...
So basically you have a theory that u like and everything else must fit into that theory...wierwillian practices 101. You really don't see how bad twi thinking is crippling your critical thinking skills or lack thereof.
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Mike
Is it possible to break a GOOD habit? Yes.
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T-Bone
FYI to all Grease Spotters, I saw a bunch of holes in this post of Mike’s – and I almost responded with constructive criticism and/or corrections – but caught myself mid-draft and decided not to – on the sneaky suspicion that Mike is inclined to be lazy, I tend to think he’s just throwing a hodge-podge of bull-Shonta, pseudoscience and technical terms against the wall to see what sticks ( usually it doesn’t ) and reformulates some of the bull-Shonta, pseudoscience and technical terms according to feedback/input he gets from Grease Spotters. Woe is me – I feel so used.
there there T-Bone, no sense in playing the victim card - nobody cares 
Edited by T-Bonecolorized movie
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Mike
I think most of the bad thinking of twi was due to the Way Corps Nazi element and the TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions), and I thankfully avoided most of that.
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So_crates
So, if the universe is as deterministic as you claim, how do you have control of self?
This contradicts what you said earlier, that every response is the result of something earlier.
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T-Bone
you coming here for 20 years with your PFAL schtick makes me think it's darn near impossible to break really bad habits
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waysider
Only if it's been predetermined you will break it and you do so of your own free will.
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OldSkool
No u didn't. Your posts prove that. You really do not have a clear picture of yourself and the things affecting you. A little leaven leaveneth the entire lump. Your in denial.
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T-Bone
I beg to differ - the way corps Nazi training camp was created and run by mini-Hitler wierwille !
No PFAL for you till lunch time!
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So_crates
Sounds like Saint Vic's in the soup
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