I'm the ONLY one posting lately on "Determinism and the illusion of Free Will."
Signs Someone Is Trolling
It can sometimes become difficult to tell the difference between a troll and someone who just genuinely wants to argue about a topic. However, here are a few tell-tale signs that someone is actively trolling.
Off-topic remarks: Completely going off-topic from the subject at hand. This is done to annoy and disrupt other posters.
Refusal to acknowledge evidence: Even when presented with hard, cold facts, they ignore this and pretend like they never saw it.
Dismissive, condescending tone: An early indicator of a troll was that they would ask an angry responder, “Why you mad, bro?” This is a method done to provoke someone even more, as a way of dismissing their argument altogether.
Use of unrelated images or memes: They reply to others withmemes, images, and gifs. This is especially true if done in response to a very long text post.
Seeming obliviousness:They seem oblivious that most people are in disagreement with them. Also, trolls rarely get mad or provoked.
The list above is by no means definitive. There are a lot of other ways to identify that someone is trolling. Generally, if someone seems disingenuous, uninterested in a real discussion, and provocative on purpose, they’re likely an internet troll.
"Yeah, but it all has a system, Dave. It all makes sense when you look at it right. You gotta, like stand back from it, you know? You want to see a real horrorshow? See my garage.”
You know...Mike could really be Keyser Soze...
Great The Usually Suspects reference…makes me think of the scene when Keyser Soze leaves the interview and the detective picks up the way corps mug Keyser left there and sees at bottom of the mug “ drink more Kool-Aid”
Come to think of it - encouraging Christians to fake SIT is like a time-delay troll bomb - it’s disruptive, distraction, and a decoy from the interactive process that can happen between God and the Christian engaged in mindful prayer in their understanding
you know I just read in TNDC, talking about SIT that wierwille seldom ever prayed in his understanding…yeah I can believe that
Great The Usually Suspects reference…makes me think of the scene when Keyser Soze leaves the interview and the detective picks up the way corps mug Keyser left there and sees at bottom of the mug “ drink more Kool-Aid”
So...I would love to see someone who IS TAKING THE NEW PFLAP (PFLAP for $100) come here to this thread, or another for this purpose, and show the differences and really convince me that the new PFLAP is actually the New PFLAP 3000 for our day and time! Edumacate me puuhleeze.
It's as if he's taken ownership of the entire website.
Hes certainly trying...and up until now, and possibly the pflap thread, I am done with his antics. It's so obvious what he's doing. I admit on this thread I was genuinely interested in what he had to say...something about a fool answereth a matter before he hears it..so I decided to give it a honest to goodness whirl...well we are still spinning...now I know.
Maybe there will be some interesting news as the New TWI evolves. I've seen many good changes and signs of more to come.
Ahhh....you are more than just a disgruntled wierwille-ite. You are a current, standing believer....I see says the blindman.
50 minutes ago, Mike said:
Certainly didn't get the detailed discussion I was hoping for, though.
You got a very detailed discussion and it wasn't the one you were hoping for. I concur. What you got was a boat load of critical thinking that demanded detail, definitions, and sources for your work. Your work was compared against...welll other things you had stated -- there were glaring contradictions and errors. Then it veered into the ridicoulous with you talking about "body and soul" vs body sould spirit people as if could ever tell the difference in any meaningful way related to a scientific study. The rules of science eliminate the possibility of spirit since matter is matter until its not matter then it doesnt matter. So, it all got basically labeled bullshonta. You couldn't answer our questions. All you chose to do was evade, distract, and stay off topic. So you have earned the troll badge.
Well, I finished posting my whole book, so I feel finished here on this thread.
Certainly didn't get the detailed discussion I was hoping for, though.
I thought if the topic was far enough from PFAL you folks could stomach it, but that aint the case, I can see.
The NT Canon thread was also far from the beaten PFAL path, but the Bottom-Up approach was never given a chance either.
Maybe someday we can come back to these 2 topics.
Maybe there will be some interesting news as the New TWI evolves. I've seen many good changes and signs of more to come.
You were probably hoping no one would call out the trolling tactics
You were off-topic to begin with
then said you were posting a “thesis” on determinism and free will,
then you posted chapters of pseudoscience nonsense,
then when challenged that your “theories” were incoherent ,based on nonsense, contradictory to certain tenets from PFAL and to basic tenants of Christianity -
you pivoted to counter-argue that said - or will say - actually proves you’re in agreement with the alleged challenges.
Your bottom-up approach you posited on the NT canon thread was utter nonsense-
I wouldn’t bring that up if I were you - since it exemplifies what a troll would do to derail a thread.
I’m not a glutton for being trolled- so coming back to any topics you’ve done a royal # 2 of Bull-Shonta to the 666th degree does not sound appetizing.
It’s probably too much to hope that you will quit acting like an incessant troll - ditch the duplicity - grow a real backbone and YOU start a thread and stay on topic.
If your supervisor (or handler ) at HQ sees this stuff you've been posting - you will probably be called on the carpet about it since it reflects poorly on PFAL Today.
"There is some consolation for all this harsh minimal-ness. There is a hidden BENEFIT to having less than total freedom, on the spot, to act or decide.
I think, as a culture, going over-board with the ideology of human freedom can sometimes become confusing in issues where freedom needs to come up in practical ways.
The idea that too much freedom can be bad or unsafe is too often automatically rejected.
But in theorizing about the mechanisms of the brain, it’s good to remember that too much spontaneous freedom of thought can be VERY bad. Bad in a practical, everyday sense, that is.
Lots of freedom sounds great for artists, but for survival IS cosmic freedom useful?
We live in a culture with great abundance, compared to most civilizations that came before us. We don’t think through enough about how FW and consciousness must work under much more austere circumstances.
But even logically, shouldn’t a totally “free” thought or action be viewed as dangerous to the thinker? To me it sounds like a great way to lose my place in a complicated set of thoughts. I want solid, immovable markers in my mind as I explore complicated ideas.
A thought, totally uninfluenced and guided by any past experience, may be poetically attractive at first, but WHO’S TO SAY there can be any practical, everyday-life benefit to such a type of freedom? Entropy would predict the opposite!"
====================================
I think it's fascinating to discuss models of culture where personal freedom has been curtailed. Mrs Wolf's fond of reviewing those- they're all DYSTOPIAS where, somewhere along the line, some idea or ideal was proposed as a cure-all and everything was adjusted to accomodate it... and society as a whole was crushed in response. Where "people can't think on their own- they need to be told what they should think." -Mrs Wolf.
In this case, we're looking at what Mike thinks is a problem-too much free will! Mike wants LESS free will! Mike wants a world so deterministic that his choices are hemmed in tightly. To Mike, that's comfort. I'm not against things being orderly, but I don't hold order to be the highest principle.
Imagine the book of Genesis with freedom of choice hemmed in deterministically. Well, actually, the options were right there. Some people complain Genesis 3 is bad because the freedom of choice is NOT hemmed in deterministically. People are given a chance to decide on their own- so they do. Who argued that the system was wrong in Genesis 3? Well, you can read it for yourself. I remember an Intro to Philosophy textbook that lauded "the serpent" as the hero in the Garden of Eden story. But, with LESS free will, there's no Genesis 3 account because humans aren't given "enough rope to hang themselves."
But, let's be honest here, I think that's the wrong perspective. Yes, it's true that one can view it that way- if one's perspective is confined strictly to the present moments as they occurred.
If one considers all of history, with all the free will decisions from that time, since then, to the present, and into the future,
Which is the greater good-
a hypothetical Garden of Eden, forever perfect from Genesis 3, with the unchanging status of Genesis 3 and two humans serving God?
or
a hypothetical future New Jerusalem, with millions of faithful, who chose to serve God Almighty despite other choices being available and easier, all transformed/resurrected with the new set (upgraded body and mind)?
On paper, when looking at all of eternity, is the second outcome not greatly superior to the first outcome, even with suffering on earth, unhappiness, and deaths- until then? I find it superior in many ways.
Each person had the choice to serve God- and those who wished to do so did, and those who wished not to did not, and each got what they wanted.
God got people who CHOSE to serve Him, who freely offered their loyalty to Him, who had the choice to love Him- and chose to do so even when it was not easy.
Instead of 2 humans serving Him, God got a LOT of them, each serving in their own manner.
What possible use is the hemming-in of free will? Someone who is scared of their own power, their own ability to choose, may well hand over their free will. (There's people who do that all the time.) Someone scared of the choices we are given might even posit that there either IS no free will, or that we should not HAVE free will after all. Does this truly benefit the person? I think not, but I can see how someone can be made to think that- or how one can run to such a doctrine when the world out there looks too big and scary. If you ask me, it's the kind of decision for someone who misses the child's lack of agency. (And WordPup, for one, doesn't want to be there even if he is young. He wants all the ability to choose that an adult has- but he accepts that it will come in time and that he might want some more practice until then.)
Those of us posting here are all adults- no matter what we're feeling like right now.
In this case, we're looking at what Mike thinks is a problem-too much free will! Mike wants LESS free will! Mike wants a world so deterministic that his choices are hemmed in tightly. To Mike, that's comfort. I'm not against things being orderly, but I don't hold order to be the highest principle.
interesting observation
reflecting on my TWI-mindset I held for 12 years - in a weird way there's a certain sense of comfort with black-and-white thinking - one is relieved there's not a whole lot of analyzing to do...rather than sort through multiple viable options, you simply look at two choices - one is right the other is wrong...
I accepted the false dilemmas wierwille presented in PFAL...there's only one way to rightly-divide "The Word" all other ways are wrong...when it comes to "The Word" I have no friends...you can either walk by your 5 senses or go by "The Word"...you can either use worldly logic or the logic of "The Word".
What is the duration of the IC? What is the duration of the excellor? It’s all only about fear removal?
What about the alphabet game? What about interpretation should be same length as tongues? Are these methods not taught?
IIRC, the IC was 7 sessions when I took it. There's excellors for each session, and when the grads were in a separate room, there were longer excellors for the grads. The grad ones had nothing to do with fear removal. In the foundational, it was mentioned quite a bit. I remember one new student who was only eligible now to take it but had been doing SIT and so on before, and he was complaining about all the time being wasted on that rather than getting into SIT. Considering episodes 9-12 are on holy spirit and SIT, and nobody's supposed to SIT until session 12, he's got a point, that's a LOT of filler.
As for the IC, yes, the alphabet game, the recordings with the length of the tongue, the natural breaking points and so on, yes, those are all in the IC I took. That was quite a bit of time. None of that was about "fear removal."
IIRC, the IC was 7 sessions when I took it. There's excellors for each session, and when the grads were in a separate room, there were longer excellors for the grads. The grad ones had nothing to do with fear removal. In the foundational, it was mentioned quite a bit. I remember one new student who was only eligible now to take it but had been doing SIT and so on before, and he was complaining about all the time being wasted on that rather than getting into SIT. Considering episodes 9-12 are on holy spirit and SIT, and nobody's supposed to SIT until session 12, he's got a point, that's a LOT of filler.
In other words, the Intermediate Class was more about fine tuning how to fake TIP, so it sounded polished like a real language being interpreted. I can see that – for me it wasn’t necessary to deal with the fear of embarrassing myself by speaking gibberish since I got past that at session 12 of PFAL…and truth be told – I faked it in session 12 – I used to sound like I was speaking Russian and Chinese kidding around in HS. I mentioned that to a guy who started a thread in doctrinal – and he freaked out and called me an unbeliever…
…well he might be right cuz he seemed pretty sharp spiritually – he said while attending some big ministry event he got revelation wierwille was loaded with devil spirits – and went on to say LCM was wrong seed and if that wasn’t terrifying enough – he also knew he had a bunch of wrong seed in his own family…that totally changed my viewpoint of TWI…what a mess – me an unbeliever being taught by a guy loaded with demons and being led by a wrong seed guy…
...uhm not that I’m paranoid or anything – but er…has anyone here made Satan their Lord or used to date Linda Blair?
IIRC, the IC was 7 sessions when I took it. There's excellors for each session, and when the grads were in a separate room, there were longer excellors for the grads. The grad ones had nothing to do with fear removal. In the foundational, it was mentioned quite a bit. I remember one new student who was only eligible now to take it but had been doing SIT and so on before, and he was complaining about all the time being wasted on that rather than getting into SIT. Considering episodes 9-12 are on holy spirit and SIT, and nobody's supposed to SIT until session 12, he's got a point, that's a LOT of filler.
As for the IC, yes, the alphabet game, the recordings with the length of the tongue, the natural breaking points and so on, yes, those are all in the IC I took. That was quite a bit of time. None of that was about "fear removal."
Thanks, WW.
Wow. This really contradicts Mike's claims. It goes to the heart of his credibility.
Did they teach how to inflect interrogatives in excellors?
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OldSkool
I do want to address this Mike. You constantly come at me like I have forgotten, or have been talked out of the truth of wierwille, or that I just don't understand where you are coming from. Personall
waysider
This right here. If you're unable to define and regulate your control factors and variables, your research is worthless. The best you could hope for would be an observational analysis of your collecte
Charity
I agree with So_Crates when he said "Here's a wild idea: why don't YOU become meek and I'll tell you about all the fruit in my life since I stopped making PLAF the center of my life." There have
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OldSkool
Signs Someone Is Trolling
It can sometimes become difficult to tell the difference between a troll and someone who just genuinely wants to argue about a topic. However, here are a few tell-tale signs that someone is actively trolling.
The list above is by no means definitive. There are a lot of other ways to identify that someone is trolling. Generally, if someone seems disingenuous, uninterested in a real discussion, and provocative on purpose, they’re likely an internet troll.
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T-Bone
Great The Usually Suspects reference…makes me think of the scene when Keyser Soze leaves the interview and the detective picks up the way corps mug Keyser left there and sees at bottom of the mug “ drink more Kool-Aid”
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Nathan_Jr
Teaching classes on HOW to SIT is trolling God.
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T-Bone
Come to think of it - encouraging Christians to fake SIT is like a time-delay troll bomb - it’s disruptive, distraction, and a decoy from the interactive process that can happen between God and the Christian engaged in mindful prayer in their understanding
you know I just read in TNDC, talking about SIT that wierwille seldom ever prayed in his understanding…yeah I can believe that
Edited by T-BoneRevision
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OldSkool
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OldSkool
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25213-power-for-abundant-living-today™/page/27/#comments
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Rocky
Good golly, Mike. it's as if you can't take even the most UNsubtle HINT.
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OldSkool
He's not interested in any honest discourse. Not even when I am begging him to share what he's learning.
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Rocky
It's as if he's taken ownership of the entire website.
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OldSkool
Hes certainly trying...and up until now, and possibly the pflap thread, I am done with his antics. It's so obvious what he's doing. I admit on this thread I was genuinely interested in what he had to say...something about a fool answereth a matter before he hears it..so I decided to give it a honest to goodness whirl...well we are still spinning...now I know.
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T-Bone
Trolling is the title deed of things hoped for
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Mike
Well, I finished posting my whole book, so I feel finished here on this thread.
Certainly didn't get the detailed discussion I was hoping for, though.
I thought if the topic was far enough from PFAL you folks could stomach it, but that aint the case, I can see.
The NT Canon thread was also far from the beaten PFAL path, but the Bottom-Up approach was never given a chance either.
Maybe someday we can come back to these 2 topics.
*/*/*/*/*
Maybe there will be some interesting news as the New TWI evolves. I've seen many good changes and signs of more to come.
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Nathan_Jr
The topic Determinism and the Illusion of Free Will is a bait and switch (Dar gato por liebre) in honor of one of victor's favorite tactics.
The real topic is T7TMOG and the music coordinator.
Maybe someday we can come back to this topic. Until then, and since it was derailed by Mike, I hope Raf will move this thread to Humor.
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OldSkool
Ahhh....you are more than just a disgruntled wierwille-ite. You are a current, standing believer....I see says the blindman.
You got a very detailed discussion and it wasn't the one you were hoping for. I concur. What you got was a boat load of critical thinking that demanded detail, definitions, and sources for your work. Your work was compared against...welll other things you had stated -- there were glaring contradictions and errors. Then it veered into the ridicoulous with you talking about "body and soul" vs body sould spirit people as if could ever tell the difference in any meaningful way related to a scientific study. The rules of science eliminate the possibility of spirit since matter is matter until its not matter then it doesnt matter. So, it all got basically labeled bullshonta. You couldn't answer our questions. All you chose to do was evade, distract, and stay off topic. So you have earned the troll badge.
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T-Bone
You were probably hoping no one would call out the trolling tactics
You were off-topic to begin with
then said you were posting a “thesis” on determinism and free will,
then you posted chapters of pseudoscience nonsense,
then when challenged that your “theories” were incoherent ,based on nonsense, contradictory to certain tenets from PFAL and to basic tenants of Christianity -
you pivoted to counter-argue that said - or will say
- actually proves you’re in agreement with the alleged challenges. 
Your bottom-up approach you posited on the NT canon thread was utter nonsense-
I wouldn’t bring that up if I were you - since it exemplifies what a troll would do to derail a thread.
I’m not a glutton for being trolled- so coming back to any topics you’ve done a royal # 2 of Bull-Shonta to the 666th degree does not sound appetizing.
It’s probably too much to hope that you will quit acting like an incessant troll - ditch the duplicity - grow a real backbone and YOU start a thread and stay on topic.
If your supervisor (or handler
) at HQ sees this stuff you've been posting - you will probably be called on the carpet about it since it reflects poorly on PFAL Today.
Edited by T-Boneemojify me
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waysider
Oh, cool! Are there any seats left for this week's SNS?
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Nathan_Jr
Ha!
Was there ever a time when there were no more seats? Was there ever a SNS that was completely sold out? Real questions.
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OldSkool
I'm sure of that...heck...I know that I know that I know
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waysider
Hey, Mike. If you're going, could you save me a WOWburger? They're just the best!
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WordWolf
"There is some consolation for all this harsh minimal-ness. There is a hidden BENEFIT to having less than total freedom, on the spot, to act or decide.
I think, as a culture, going over-board with the ideology of human freedom can sometimes become confusing in issues where freedom needs to come up in practical ways.
The idea that too much freedom can be bad or unsafe is too often automatically rejected.
But in theorizing about the mechanisms of the brain, it’s good to remember that too much spontaneous freedom of thought can be VERY bad. Bad in a practical, everyday sense, that is.
Lots of freedom sounds great for artists, but for survival IS cosmic freedom useful?
We live in a culture with great abundance, compared to most civilizations that came before us. We don’t think through enough about how FW and consciousness must work under much more austere circumstances.
But even logically, shouldn’t a totally “free” thought or action be viewed as dangerous to the thinker? To me it sounds like a great way to lose my place in a complicated set of thoughts. I want solid, immovable markers in my mind as I explore complicated ideas.
A thought, totally uninfluenced and guided by any past experience, may be poetically attractive at first, but WHO’S TO SAY there can be any practical, everyday-life benefit to such a type of freedom? Entropy would predict the opposite!"
====================================
I think it's fascinating to discuss models of culture where personal freedom has been curtailed. Mrs Wolf's fond of reviewing those- they're all DYSTOPIAS where, somewhere along the line, some idea or ideal was proposed as a cure-all and everything was adjusted to accomodate it... and society as a whole was crushed in response. Where "people can't think on their own- they need to be told what they should think." -Mrs Wolf.
In this case, we're looking at what Mike thinks is a problem-too much free will! Mike wants LESS free will! Mike wants a world so deterministic that his choices are hemmed in tightly. To Mike, that's comfort. I'm not against things being orderly, but I don't hold order to be the highest principle.
Imagine the book of Genesis with freedom of choice hemmed in deterministically. Well, actually, the options were right there. Some people complain Genesis 3 is bad because the freedom of choice is NOT hemmed in deterministically. People are given a chance to decide on their own- so they do. Who argued that the system was wrong in Genesis 3? Well, you can read it for yourself. I remember an Intro to Philosophy textbook that lauded "the serpent" as the hero in the Garden of Eden story. But, with LESS free will, there's no Genesis 3 account because humans aren't given "enough rope to hang themselves."
But, let's be honest here, I think that's the wrong perspective. Yes, it's true that one can view it that way- if one's perspective is confined strictly to the present moments as they occurred.
If one considers all of history, with all the free will decisions from that time, since then, to the present, and into the future,
Which is the greater good-
a hypothetical Garden of Eden, forever perfect from Genesis 3, with the unchanging status of Genesis 3 and two humans serving God?
or
a hypothetical future New Jerusalem, with millions of faithful, who chose to serve God Almighty despite other choices being available and easier, all transformed/resurrected with the new set (upgraded body and mind)?
On paper, when looking at all of eternity, is the second outcome not greatly superior to the first outcome, even with suffering on earth, unhappiness, and deaths- until then? I find it superior in many ways.
Each person had the choice to serve God- and those who wished to do so did, and those who wished not to did not, and each got what they wanted.
God got people who CHOSE to serve Him, who freely offered their loyalty to Him, who had the choice to love Him- and chose to do so even when it was not easy.
Instead of 2 humans serving Him, God got a LOT of them, each serving in their own manner.
What possible use is the hemming-in of free will? Someone who is scared of their own power, their own ability to choose, may well hand over their free will. (There's people who do that all the time.) Someone scared of the choices we are given might even posit that there either IS no free will, or that we should not HAVE free will after all. Does this truly benefit the person? I think not, but I can see how someone can be made to think that- or how one can run to such a doctrine when the world out there looks too big and scary. If you ask me, it's the kind of decision for someone who misses the child's lack of agency. (And WordPup, for one, doesn't want to be there even if he is young. He wants all the ability to choose that an adult has- but he accepts that it will come in time and that he might want some more practice until then.)
Those of us posting here are all adults- no matter what we're feeling like right now.
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T-Bone
interesting observation
reflecting on my TWI-mindset I held for 12 years - in a weird way there's a certain sense of comfort with black-and-white thinking - one is relieved there's not a whole lot of analyzing to do...rather than sort through multiple viable options, you simply look at two choices - one is right the other is wrong...
I accepted the false dilemmas wierwille presented in PFAL...there's only one way to rightly-divide "The Word" all other ways are wrong...when it comes to "The Word" I have no friends...you can either walk by your 5 senses or go by "The Word"...you can either use worldly logic or the logic of "The Word".
Edited by T-Boneadditions
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WordWolf
IIRC, the IC was 7 sessions when I took it. There's excellors for each session, and when the grads were in a separate room, there were longer excellors for the grads. The grad ones had nothing to do with fear removal. In the foundational, it was mentioned quite a bit. I remember one new student who was only eligible now to take it but had been doing SIT and so on before, and he was complaining about all the time being wasted on that rather than getting into SIT. Considering episodes 9-12 are on holy spirit and SIT, and nobody's supposed to SIT until session 12, he's got a point, that's a LOT of filler.
As for the IC, yes, the alphabet game, the recordings with the length of the tongue, the natural breaking points and so on, yes, those are all in the IC I took. That was quite a bit of time. None of that was about "fear removal."
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T-Bone
In other words, the Intermediate Class was more about fine tuning how to fake TIP, so it sounded polished like a real language being interpreted. I can see that – for me it wasn’t necessary to deal with the fear of embarrassing myself by speaking gibberish since I got past that at session 12 of PFAL…and truth be told – I faked it in session 12 – I used to sound like I was speaking Russian and Chinese kidding around in HS. I mentioned that to a guy who started a thread in doctrinal – and he freaked out and called me an unbeliever…
…well he might be right cuz he seemed pretty sharp spiritually – he said while attending some big ministry event he got revelation wierwille was loaded with devil spirits – and went on to say LCM was wrong seed and if that wasn’t terrifying enough – he also knew he had a bunch of wrong seed in his own family…that totally changed my viewpoint of TWI…what a mess – me an unbeliever being taught by a guy loaded with demons and being led by a wrong seed guy…
...uhm not that I’m paranoid or anything – but er…has anyone here made Satan their Lord or used to date Linda Blair?
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Nathan_Jr
Thanks, WW.
Wow. This really contradicts Mike's claims. It goes to the heart of his credibility.
Did they teach how to inflect interrogatives in excellors?
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