Ok, so while we're still off topic, I'll toss this in. A lot of us learned to play bass, back in the day, on cheap six string rigs. I never did any mods or anything like that, but, yeah, we just played the bass parts on regular old guitars until we could afford the real thing. Sure, it sounded just as thin as you would expect, but, hey, it sounded ok in the basement and it was the height of the Little Black Egg era. Know what I'm sayin'? I gave up a lot of my musical activity to focus on "the ministry". Life is full of regrets, but that's Ok. You have to "keep on keepin' on" and not allow them to drag you down.
Ok, so while we're still off topic, I'll toss this in. A lot of us learned to play bass, back in the day, on cheap six string rigs. I never did any mods or anything like that, but, yeah, we just played the bass parts on regular old guitars until we could afford the real thing. Sure, it sounded just as thin as you would expect, but, hey, it sounded ok in the basement and it was the height of the Little Black Egg era. Know what I'm sayin'? I gave up a lot of my musical activity to focus on "the ministry". Life is full of regrets, buy that's Ok. You have to "keep on keepin' on" and not allow them to drag you down.
How about this for a segue back to the topic - my Frankenstein bass design is like wierwille’s thinking behind PFAL and Advanced Class - throw together some good parts with a cheap warped structure for a backbone - it may look good but sounds terrible when put into play.
How about this for a segue back to the topic - my Frankenstein bass design is like wierwille’s thinking behind PFAL and Advanced Class - throw together some good parts with a cheap warped structure for a backbone - it may look good but sounds terrible when put into play.
Before we get modded I feel privileged to interact with you lewd fellows of the baser sort
35. Still confused over the unforgivable sin. Is it confess with your mouth Satan is lord and believe in your heart that Cain rose up against his brother? Or is it admit out loud Craig is Lord of the Dance and tried to out-schtup his daddy in “the word”
35.
A. Some unintended consequences of wierwille’s teaching on the unforgivable sin - is the mental anguish caused - and in some cases even suicide by TWI-followers who for whatever reasons believed they had committed the unforgivable sin.
37. Misdiagnosis when operating revelation manifestations.
wierwille claimed while ministering to a woman, he got revelation her ovaries hurt.
I heard wierwille say that in an Advanced Class...Remembering that baloney today, I thought wouldn't it have been funny if he found out later after visiting a realdoctor, he was suffering from sore lymph nodes in his groin area due to a sexually transmitted disease.
35.
A. Some unintended consequences of wierwille’s teaching on the unforgivable sin - is the mental anguish caused - and in some cases even suicide by TWI-followers who for whatever reasons believed they had committed the unforgivable sin.
I dealt with the worst self-condemnation based on this crap. I was into the occult - voodoo/santeria/etc before my time in TWI. I seriously contemplated suicide my first few months "in da werd". I eventually got over it but it was some serious mental anguish that came with the way TWI teaches this stuff. Obviously, the serpent has a seed per Genesis 3:15, but I am confident that in no way did vic/twi understand anything about it. Honestly, I can't say I understand exactly what Genesis 3:15 is all about, except we see it play out in the Gospels with Jesus and the Pharisees, et. al. Jesus did identify them as being of their father the devil, but that's about all I really understand. Is it a matter of confessing satan as lord? On face value, I HIGHLY doubt it. Is being a child of the devil like Elymas in acts something a person is naturally born into based on luciferian bloodlines? I have no clue. That there are luciferian bloodlines I am absolutely sure because the person that tutored me in the occult was from such a family. Worshipping lucifer was their religion and was documented in their family all the way back to the Scotland dating back several hundred years at least. So yes, after growing up southern baptist I went full bore into the occult. I was enticed by a very skillful handler.
I dealt with the worst self-condemnation based on this crap. I was into the occult - voodoo/santeria/etc before my time in TWI. I seriously contemplated suicide my first few months "in da werd". I eventually got over it but it was some serious mental anguish that came with the way TWI teaches this stuff. Obviously, the serpent has a seed per Genesis 3:15, but I am confident that in no way did vic/twi understand anything about it. Honestly, I can't say I understand exactly what Genesis 3:15 is all about, except we see it play out in the Gospels with Jesus and the Pharisees, et. al. Jesus did identify them as being of their father the devil, but that's about all I really understand. Is it a matter of confessing satan as lord? On face value, I HIGHLY doubt it. Is being a child of the devil like Elymas in acts something a person is naturally born into based on luciferian bloodlines? I have no clue. That there are luciferian bloodlines I am absolutely sure because the person that tutored me in the occult was from such a family. Worshipping lucifer was their religion and was documented in their family all the way back to the Scotland dating back several hundred years at least. So yes, after growing up southern baptist I went full bore into the occult. I was enticed by a very skillful handler.
I'm so sorry you ever bought into this serpent seed bull$hit. Child of the devil bull$hit.... oh... wait... did you ever see The Omen? Never mind, they made a movie. It must be true.
I thought the unforgivable sin was blaspheming the Holy Spirit - attributing divine power to the devil or vice versa? Or something like that. Isn't there a story in Matthew about it? I can't remember. Guess I need to renew my mind.
If only victor could have believed big enough to live long enough....snow and gloves...
I'm so sorry you ever bought into this serpent seed bull$hit. Child of the devil bull$hit.... oh... wait... did you ever see The Omen? Never mind, they made a movie. It must be true.
I thought the unforgivable sin was blaspheming the Holy Spirit - attributing divine power to the devil or vice versa? Or something like that. Isn't there a story in Matthew about it? I can't remember. Guess I need to renew my mind.
If only victor could have believed big enough to live long enough....snow and gloves...
I dealt with the worst self-condemnation based on this crap. I was into the occult - voodoo/santeria/etc before my time in TWI. I seriously contemplated suicide my first few months "in da werd". I eventually got over it but it was some serious mental anguish that came with the way TWI teaches this stuff. Obviously, the serpent has a seed per Genesis 3:15, but I am confident that in no way did vic/twi understand anything about it. Honestly, I can't say I understand exactly what Genesis 3:15 is all about, except we see it play out in the Gospels with Jesus and the Pharisees, et. al. Jesus did identify them as being of their father the devil, but that's about all I really understand. Is it a matter of confessing satan as lord? On face value, I HIGHLY doubt it. Is being a child of the devil like Elymas in acts something a person is naturally born into based on luciferian bloodlines? I have no clue. That there are luciferian bloodlines I am absolutely sure because the person that tutored me in the occult was from such a family. Worshipping lucifer was their religion and was documented in their family all the way back to the Scotland dating back several hundred years at least. So yes, after growing up southern baptist I went full bore into the occult. I was enticed by a very skillful handler.
OldSkool,
you got me thinking of some of what I was into before I got involved with TWI…I was a seeker for sure…figured I got all I was going to get out of the Roman Catholic church, so I got into other stuff, first it was mostly pot, occasional mescaline and acid. LSD was usually too intense for me – and after praying to Jesus during one bad trip, I didn’t mess with drugs anymore…then read some Edgar Cayce stuff, looked into ESP, meditation, Eastern religions…never got much out of any of that stuff – but I think it did leave some impression on me that there was more to life than meets the eye. And I guess that was what left the door open for me to accept what wierwille was saying as true…but I’m with you – now I realize wierwille didn’t know what he was talking about...I bet there's a lot more horror stories we've never heard about that prompted wierwille to pull the unforgiveable sin session from the PFAL class...I took that as a separate session some time after completing PFAL...damn wierwille and his hodge podge theology - playing with fire and he didn't even realize he was playing with fire.
A sidenote from me for this thread is that I’m to the point on stuff I don’t know about or have not experienced – I’ll wait and see…for me I’ll believe it if I see it. The paranormal? UFOs? Life on other planets? Someone doing miracles? If any of that crosses my path – I’ll talk more about it then.
Really?! Wow. This is rare. Very difficult to obtain. I’d love to hear about it sometime.
To keep it on topic, Victor made a reference to LSD in one of the ACs. Something about seeing pink elephants, which is pure bull$hit. Just one of the many thousands of subjects he knew absolutely NOTHING about, yet insisted on asserting claims of fact.
I dealt with the worst self-condemnation based on this crap. I was into the occult - voodoo/santeria/etc before my time in TWI. I seriously contemplated suicide my first few months "in da werd". I eventually got over it but it was some serious mental anguish that came with the way TWI teaches this stuff. Obviously, the serpent has a seed per Genesis 3:15, but I am confident that in no way did vic/twi understand anything about it. Honestly, I can't say I understand exactly what Genesis 3:15 is all about, except we see it play out in the Gospels with Jesus and the Pharisees, et. al. Jesus did identify them as being of their father the devil, but that's about all I really understand. Is it a matter of confessing satan as lord? On face value, I HIGHLY doubt it. Is being a child of the devil like Elymas in acts something a person is naturally born into based on luciferian bloodlines? I have no clue. That there are luciferian bloodlines I am absolutely sure because the person that tutored me in the occult was from such a family. Worshipping lucifer was their religion and was documented in their family all the way back to the Scotland dating back several hundred years at least. So yes, after growing up southern baptist I went full bore into the occult. I was enticed by a very skillful handler.
Man sorry you went through all that. And sorry as well for the loss of the Les Paul Custom that sounds like a pretty sweet gig axe.
A sidenote from me for this thread is that I’m to the point on stuff I don’t know about or have not experienced – I’ll wait and see…for me I’ll believe it if I see it. The paranormal? UFOs? Life on other planets? Someone doing miracles? If any of that crosses my path – I’ll talk more about it then.
And that's the cool thing with tossing the idea that we know that we know that we know. The only thing for sure I know is that I don't know very much at all about a great many topics. However, I am enjoying the adventure of finding out.
34 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:
Really?! Wow. This is rare. Very difficult to obtain. I’d love to hear about it sometime.
To keep it on topic, Victor made a reference to LSD in one of the ACs. Something about seeing pink elephants, which is pure bull$hit. Just one of the many thousands of subjects he knew absolutely NOTHING about, yet insisted on asserting claims of fact.
I dosed acid during my teenage years up until a bad trip when I was 18. Haven't touched the stuff since. I doubt he saw pink elephants unless he was going through DTs from his Drambuie. I used to dose LSD heavily and never hallucinated like he say he did at all. I saw walls breathing, trees getting distorted, what appeared to be ants crawling around. Most of my halloucinations were natural occurences chemicall distorted in my perceptions. That's not to say that other people didn't just outright hallucinate stuff that was out of this world. Depending on folks body chemistry it's plausible and possible. I HIGHLY doubt VPW knew anything first hand and likely quoted second hand experiences in an authoritative manner.
Now - what I did hallucinate on was mushrooms. Last time I did mushrooms I literally saw a light show on an exposed brick wall in my bedroom. Kinda like a fireworks show, spinnig pinwheel, multi-colored lights - other patterns too...it was very vivid and the experince is fresh in my mind to this day.
Man sorry you went through all that. And sorry as well for the loss of the Les Paul Custom that sounds like a pretty sweet gig axe.
thanks!! Really apprecaiate ya! I would LOVE to have that guitar to this very day. Still regret that move and will likely regret it the rest of my life.
thanks!! Really apprecaiate ya! I would LOVE to have that guitar to this very day. Still regret that move and will likely regret it the rest of my life.
I never got rid of anything that vintage. Maybe a Marshall head. I did Frankenstein a Jackson with some high output Chinese manufactured pickups and bicycle paint and fluorescent markers though. A few years ago. It makes me smile lol. It sounds pretty good. I had to learn how to sotter and used a wiring diagram off the net. My friend helped me also who knows a lot. Nowadays they have SoundCloud also for doing track work. I haven’t done any yet but probably will in next few years.
I bet there's a lot more horror stories we've never heard about that prompted wierwille to pull the unforgiveable sin session from the PFAL class...I took that as a separate session some time after completing PFAL...damn wierwille and his hodge podge theology - playing with fire and he didn't even realize he was playing with fire.
Hold up...I read right past this little golden nugget. You mean to tell me that he pulled the unforgiveable sin from early PFLAP classes? Cause I had no idea. I was exposed to the concept from reading the collaterials and absolutely freaked the eff out when I read it. In the mid-90s craig had all the information on seed of the serpent in the DTA and advanced classes. Im not sure if TWI even teaches it anymore.
Hold up...I read right past this little golden nugget. You mean to tell me that he pulled the unforgiveable sin from early PFLAP classes? Cause I had no idea. I was exposed to the concept from reading the collaterials and absolutely freaked the eff out when I read it. In the mid-90s craig had all the information on seed of the serpent in the DTA and advanced classes. Im not sure if TWI even teaches it anymore.
To clarify - I said it that way - from the standpoint of not knowing at the time the inner workings of TWI . But I can’t imagine leadership out in the field making a decision like that independent of wierwille’s say-so.
If I’m not mistaken there’s an unforgivable sin chapter in the orange book. But for me seeing wierwille teach it on the tv screen had more dramatic impact.
How you and I were affected differently by the initial presentation may indicate I was more impressed by his charisma than the written material- whereas you actually gave it more thought while reading it. In other words you’re the type of person who reads the fine print - and some sales reps don’t like it when you do that.
At the most fundamental level, Wierwille sought to establish a loyal base of followers who would willingly supply financial support with consistent frequency. It was no mistake that "Christians Should Be Prosperous" was one of the first reading requirements. The foundational class on Power For Abundant Living (PFAL) was only the bait that lured people into the organization, with promises of newly found freedom and deliverance. The Intermediate and Advanced Classes, along with other classes, such as Dealing With The Adversary and Renewed Mind, were what set the hook and reeled us in.
There was always an unofficial, undercurrent of teaching that flowed freely through the organization. Looking back, I believe it may have been done this way to distance the official organization from culpability. One of the concepts that seemed to gain a foothold quickly was the idea that, once you had heard "the truth", the devil would put a target on your back to keep you from spreading "the word". Bad things could happen to you if you ever left the hedge of protection that fellowshipping with likeminded believers provided. You could never go back to your old way of life. There were plenty of anecdotes being spread to fortify this thinking. One such example came straight from VPW when he brutally chastised the Way Corp, and one individual in particular, for the death of a Way Corp member who died in a car crash when he disobeyed the Man of God and left the HQ grounds, in violation of a directive not to do so. Supposedly, the believer's death was the result of defying revelation and walking out of fellowship... Well, you have to be En Garde! at all times, now, don't you?
In the course of only a few short weeks or months, a new believer went from a feeling of exhilaration and liberation to a feeling of paranoia, always having to mentally sneak a peek over the shoulder to make sure the devil was still at bay. You could never contemplate leaving. You were trapped. When the subsequent classes failed to provide answers of how to deal with this, a feeling of hopelessness eventually replaced the original excitement.
Being a promoter of PFAL is like being a drug dealer who gifts someone their first hit of heroin. The user goes from a euphoric rush to abject desolation. Staying addicted in hope of avoiding the inevitable is a painful act of futility.
At the most fundamental level, Wierwille sought to establish a loyal base of followers who would willingly supply financial support with consistent frequency. It was no mistake that "Christians Should Be Prosperous" was one of the first reading requirements. The foundational class on Power For Abundant Living (PFAL) was only the bait that lured people into the organization, with promises of newly found freedom and deliverance. The Intermediate and Advanced Classes, along with other classes, such as Dealing With The Adversary and Renewed Mind, were what set the hook and reeled us in.
There was always an unofficial, undercurrent of teaching that flowed freely through the organization. Looking back, I believe it may have been done this way to distance the official organization from culpability. One of the concepts that seemed to gain a foothold quickly was the idea that, once you had heard "the truth", the devil would put a target on your back to keep you from spreading "the word". Bad things could happen to you if you ever left the hedge of protection that fellowshipping with likeminded believers provided. You could never go back to your old way of life. There were plenty of anecdotes being spread to fortify this thinking. One such example came straight from VPW when he brutally chastised the Way Corp, and one individual in particular, for the death of a Way Corp member who died in a car crash when he disobeyed the Man of God and left the HQ grounds, in violation of a directive not to do so. Supposedly, the believer's death was the result of defying revelation and walking out of fellowship... Well, you have to be En Garde! at all times, now, don't you?
In the course of only a few short weeks or months, a new believer went from a feeling of exhilaration and liberation to a feeling of paranoia, always having to mentally sneak a peek over the shoulder to make sure the devil was still at bay. You could never contemplate leaving. You were trapped. When the subsequent classes failed to provide answers of how to deal with this, a feeling of hopelessness eventually replaced the original excitement.
Being a promoter of PFAL is like being a drug dealer who gifts someone their first hit of heroin. The user goes from a euphoric rush to abject desolation. Staying addicted in hope of avoiding the inevitable is a painful act of futility.
There were plenty of anecdotes being spread to fortify this thinking. One such example came straight from VPW when he brutally chastised the Way Corp, and one individual in particular, for the death of a Way Corp member who died in a car crash when he disobeyed the Man of God and left the HQ grounds, in violation of a directive not to do so. Supposedly, the believer's death was the result of defying revelation and walking out of fellowship
Thanks for this post, Waysider. Spot on!
Can you provide anymore details to flesh out this record?Just curious.
most of us, after the 1st session, were told to have "Christians Should Be Prosperous" read before the next session (the book was an argument for tithing to twi).
twi also taught "abundant sharing." In twi, the tithe was/is MANDATORY, although the Christian's donations are to be freewill and not "of necessity" (in other words, NOT MANDATORY.) Supposedly, 10 percent is the minimum, less than that and "God won't even spit in your direction." (lcm primarily.) That's "the seed."
Donations above 10 percent were called "abundant sharing." This got a bit confusing when the tithe (from the word "TENTH") was raised to 15 percent then 20 percent under lcm. Man, THAT didn't last long..... So, people were encouraged to donate directly to twi above 10 percent.
Then there's "plurality giving." Ever heard that term outside of twi? In twi, that meant taking your income, subtracting all you need to live on, and donating the rest directly to twi- as in HQ, NEVER locally. So, you were not supposed to save money for emergencies or investments. You were to trust twi that God would cover you in case of emergencies. As for investments like a house, in practice it was expected that you count on inheritences to give you a house, since otherwise you won't be handing all that cash over to twi.
Outside of twi - and possibly ex-twi groups- neither the term nor the concept- are taught. Then again, I haven't checked cults. No Christian denomination teaches it.
twi, from the beginning, was organized to turn a profit. Pfal was set up to sell the materials at RETAIL prices, guaranteeing a profit. It was held in homes where the locals covered all expenses. It pushed tithing (see above.) Intermediate was even more egregious about retail prices, since you got almost no materials. ROAs were always priced with everything RETAIL. And so on. Everything either had additional costs that weren't covering an obvious need, or was on its own expense. Want to go WOW? There's a flat fee of $200 that twi keeps- and gives back nothing in exchange. The rest of the fee is for you to find housing where you're assigned. The group is chosen with an eye towards who has a car. twi does not transport the groups, nor pay for gas or housing. Any help with housing is out-of-pocket for LOCALS, who ALWAYS pay the check in twi. And the main goal in WOW is to run pfal classes- which run at a profit for twi and attempt to reel in more suckers to get 10 percent or more of their income.
n other words you’re the type of person who reads the fine print - and some sales reps don’t like it when you do that.
Ive learned to put on my readers. I used to accept things at face value and that led me to rush headlong into TWI, way corps, etc. To be clear though, there are a lot of things I learned in the way corps/way corps training that benefit me to this day. However, in the big picture I could have had similar experiences without signing my life over to be heavily micromanaged for four years. But - yes - today I check everything out and really try to poke all kinds of holes in whatever I am into.
At the most fundamental level, Wierwille sought to establish a loyal base of followers who would willingly supply financial support with consistent frequency.
1 hour ago, WordWolf said:
twi, from the beginning, was organized to turn a profit. Pfal was set up to sell the materials at RETAIL prices, guaranteeing a profit.
Awesome posts guys!
If one is to follow the official propognda put out by the way international then they remain blind to the obvious - TWI is about making MONEY - especially back in Vics day. They ran through those donations with reckless abandon all the way up to the lawsuits - So that includes Criag, Donna, Rosalie, et. al. Once the lawyers were involved they introduced legalese such as "private inurement" into the system. So yeah, it's still a gravy train for the inner circle - they have just kinda quited down all the illegal spending. They try to make it seem legit. Like Rosalie paying TWI $10 a pop to have the grounds department mow her property. Considering the size, she would have easlily paid $50 or more. But that punk butt $10 leaves a paper trail where they can say -- "See...I paid." So yeah, they paid their lawyers God knows what sort of $$ out of donations from their followers to learn how to get over on their own system and get away with it. How's that for your abundant swharing at work.
One thing is for sure: most long standing way corps have nowhere else to go and really can't fit in very well anywhere else. They NEEED that headquarters lifestyle - they are too vested to do anything else.
Ive learned to put on my readers. I used to accept things at face value and that led me to rush headlong into TWI, way corps, etc. To be clear though, there are a lot of things I learned in the way corps/way corps training that benefit me to this day. However, in the big picture I could have had similar experiences without signing my life over to be heavily micromanaged for four years. But - yes - today I check everything out and really try to poke all kinds of holes in whatever I am into.
Yeah, a few the things my wife and I learned in the way corps was to keep a stiff upper lip, going the second mile, and to walk circumspectly even when walking through a snake pit. Getting back into our careers – my wife and I would swap work-battle stories.
Some of the challenges in the way corps prepared us for facing trouble in the real world – like: not giving up in the face of adversity, completing an assigned task whether I like doing it or not, and staying on top of details and taking deliberate thoughtful steps…That last point was critical working in security – save all emails – ask for verification or confirmation via email when a supervisor or client gave me a verbal “change order”…inspired by the way corps motto “it is written”
Our silent mantra whenever we were under fire at work was “I’m corps dammit”
now we're both retired...so we just have battles at home so we kinda cancel each other out "I'm corps dammit" versus "big deal, so am I"
funny story my wife overhead a corps couple having a fight - the wife said to hubby "you're so perfect you're the antichrist" true story - I swear on my corps notes!
Edited by T-Bone go the second smile...style...tile...no it's mile
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Something about spiritual mashed potatoes errr ...somethin'. "I am just a poor boy Though my story's seldom told I have squandered my resistance For a pocketful of mumbles such are prom
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At the most fundamental level, Wierwille sought to establish a loyal base of followers who would willingly supply financial support with consistent frequency. It was no mistake that "Christians Should
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waysider
Ok, so while we're still off topic, I'll toss this in. A lot of us learned to play bass, back in the day, on cheap six string rigs. I never did any mods or anything like that, but, yeah, we just played the bass parts on regular old guitars until we could afford the real thing. Sure, it sounded just as thin as you would expect, but, hey, it sounded ok in the basement and it was the height of the Little Black Egg era. Know what I'm sayin'? I gave up a lot of my musical activity to focus on "the ministry". Life is full of regrets, but that's Ok. You have to "keep on keepin' on" and not allow them to drag you down.
Edited by waysiderspelling
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T-Bone
How about this for a segue back to the topic - my Frankenstein bass design is like wierwille’s thinking behind PFAL and Advanced Class - throw together some good parts with a cheap warped structure for a backbone - it may look good but sounds terrible when put into play.
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chockfull
Before we get modded I feel privileged to interact with you lewd fellows of the baser sort
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T-Bone
35.
A. Some unintended consequences of wierwille’s teaching on the unforgivable sin - is the mental anguish caused - and in some cases even suicide by TWI-followers who for whatever reasons believed they had committed the unforgivable sin.
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chockfull
36. They teach the unforgivable sin is accepting Satan as lord. In practice the unforgivable sin is questioning the direction of leadership.
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T-Bone
37. Misdiagnosis when operating revelation manifestations.
wierwille claimed while ministering to a woman, he got revelation her ovaries hurt.
I heard wierwille say that in an Advanced Class...Remembering that baloney today, I thought wouldn't it have been funny if he found out later after visiting a real doctor, he was suffering from sore lymph nodes in his groin area due to a sexually transmitted disease.
Edited by T-Bonethe fact and the fiction
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OldSkool
I dealt with the worst self-condemnation based on this crap. I was into the occult - voodoo/santeria/etc before my time in TWI. I seriously contemplated suicide my first few months "in da werd". I eventually got over it but it was some serious mental anguish that came with the way TWI teaches this stuff. Obviously, the serpent has a seed per Genesis 3:15, but I am confident that in no way did vic/twi understand anything about it. Honestly, I can't say I understand exactly what Genesis 3:15 is all about, except we see it play out in the Gospels with Jesus and the Pharisees, et. al. Jesus did identify them as being of their father the devil, but that's about all I really understand. Is it a matter of confessing satan as lord? On face value, I HIGHLY doubt it. Is being a child of the devil like Elymas in acts something a person is naturally born into based on luciferian bloodlines? I have no clue. That there are luciferian bloodlines I am absolutely sure because the person that tutored me in the occult was from such a family. Worshipping lucifer was their religion and was documented in their family all the way back to the Scotland dating back several hundred years at least. So yes, after growing up southern baptist I went full bore into the occult. I was enticed by a very skillful handler.
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Nathan_Jr
I'm so sorry you ever bought into this serpent seed bull$hit. Child of the devil bull$hit.... oh... wait... did you ever see The Omen? Never mind, they made a movie. It must be true.
I thought the unforgivable sin was blaspheming the Holy Spirit - attributing divine power to the devil or vice versa? Or something like that. Isn't there a story in Matthew about it? I can't remember. Guess I need to renew my mind.
If only victor could have believed big enough to live long enough....snow and gloves...
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OldSkool
I really appreciate the kind words, thanks!
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T-Bone
OldSkool,
you got me thinking of some of what I was into before I got involved with TWI…I was a seeker for sure…figured I got all I was going to get out of the Roman Catholic church, so I got into other stuff, first it was mostly pot, occasional mescaline and acid. LSD was usually too intense for me – and after praying to Jesus during one bad trip, I didn’t mess with drugs anymore…then read some Edgar Cayce stuff, looked into ESP, meditation, Eastern religions…never got much out of any of that stuff – but I think it did leave some impression on me that there was more to life than meets the eye. And I guess that was what left the door open for me to accept what wierwille was saying as true…but I’m with you – now I realize wierwille didn’t know what he was talking about...I bet there's a lot more horror stories we've never heard about that prompted wierwille to pull the unforgiveable sin session from the PFAL class...I took that as a separate session some time after completing PFAL...damn wierwille and his hodge podge theology - playing with fire and he didn't even realize he was playing with fire.
A sidenote from me for this thread is that I’m to the point on stuff I don’t know about or have not experienced – I’ll wait and see…for me I’ll believe it if I see it. The paranormal? UFOs? Life on other planets? Someone doing miracles? If any of that crosses my path – I’ll talk more about it then.
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Nathan_Jr
Really?! Wow. This is rare. Very difficult to obtain. I’d love to hear about it sometime.
To keep it on topic, Victor made a reference to LSD in one of the ACs. Something about seeing pink elephants, which is pure bull$hit. Just one of the many thousands of subjects he knew absolutely NOTHING about, yet insisted on asserting claims of fact.
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chockfull
Man sorry you went through all that. And sorry as well for the loss of the Les Paul Custom that sounds like a pretty sweet gig axe.
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OldSkool
And that's the cool thing with tossing the idea that we know that we know that we know. The only thing for sure I know is that I don't know very much at all about a great many topics. However, I am enjoying the adventure of finding out.
I dosed acid during my teenage years up until a bad trip when I was 18. Haven't touched the stuff since. I doubt he saw pink elephants unless he was going through DTs from his Drambuie. I used to dose LSD heavily and never hallucinated like he say he did at all. I saw walls breathing, trees getting distorted, what appeared to be ants crawling around. Most of my halloucinations were natural occurences chemicall distorted in my perceptions. That's not to say that other people didn't just outright hallucinate stuff that was out of this world. Depending on folks body chemistry it's plausible and possible. I HIGHLY doubt VPW knew anything first hand and likely quoted second hand experiences in an authoritative manner.
Now - what I did hallucinate on was mushrooms. Last time I did mushrooms I literally saw a light show on an exposed brick wall in my bedroom. Kinda like a fireworks show, spinnig pinwheel, multi-colored lights - other patterns too...it was very vivid and the experince is fresh in my mind to this day.
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OldSkool
thanks!! Really apprecaiate ya! I would LOVE to have that guitar to this very day. Still regret that move and will likely regret it the rest of my life.
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chockfull
I never got rid of anything that vintage. Maybe a Marshall head. I did Frankenstein a Jackson with some high output Chinese manufactured pickups and bicycle paint and fluorescent markers though. A few years ago. It makes me smile lol. It sounds pretty good. I had to learn how to sotter and used a wiring diagram off the net. My friend helped me also who knows a lot. Nowadays they have SoundCloud also for doing track work. I haven’t done any yet but probably will in next few years.
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OldSkool
Hold up...I read right past this little golden nugget. You mean to tell me that he pulled the unforgiveable sin from early PFLAP classes? Cause I had no idea. I was exposed to the concept from reading the collaterials and absolutely freaked the eff out when I read it. In the mid-90s craig had all the information on seed of the serpent in the DTA and advanced classes. Im not sure if TWI even teaches it anymore.
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T-Bone
To clarify - I said it that way - from the standpoint of not knowing at the time the inner workings of TWI . But I can’t imagine leadership out in the field making a decision like that independent of wierwille’s say-so.
If I’m not mistaken there’s an unforgivable sin chapter in the orange book. But for me seeing wierwille teach it on the tv screen had more dramatic impact.
How you and I were affected differently by the initial presentation may indicate I was more impressed by his charisma than the written material- whereas you actually gave it more thought while reading it. In other words you’re the type of person who reads the fine print - and some sales reps don’t like it when you do that.
Edited by T-BoneTypos
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waysider
At the most fundamental level, Wierwille sought to establish a loyal base of followers who would willingly supply financial support with consistent frequency. It was no mistake that "Christians Should Be Prosperous" was one of the first reading requirements. The foundational class on Power For Abundant Living (PFAL) was only the bait that lured people into the organization, with promises of newly found freedom and deliverance. The Intermediate and Advanced Classes, along with other classes, such as Dealing With The Adversary and Renewed Mind, were what set the hook and reeled us in.
There was always an unofficial, undercurrent of teaching that flowed freely through the organization. Looking back, I believe it may have been done this way to distance the official organization from culpability. One of the concepts that seemed to gain a foothold quickly was the idea that, once you had heard "the truth", the devil would put a target on your back to keep you from spreading "the word". Bad things could happen to you if you ever left the hedge of protection that fellowshipping with likeminded believers provided. You could never go back to your old way of life. There were plenty of anecdotes being spread to fortify this thinking. One such example came straight from VPW when he brutally chastised the Way Corp, and one individual in particular, for the death of a Way Corp member who died in a car crash when he disobeyed the Man of God and left the HQ grounds, in violation of a directive not to do so. Supposedly, the believer's death was the result of defying revelation and walking out of fellowship... Well, you have to be En Garde! at all times, now, don't you?
In the course of only a few short weeks or months, a new believer went from a feeling of exhilaration and liberation to a feeling of paranoia, always having to mentally sneak a peek over the shoulder to make sure the devil was still at bay. You could never contemplate leaving. You were trapped. When the subsequent classes failed to provide answers of how to deal with this, a feeling of hopelessness eventually replaced the original excitement.
Being a promoter of PFAL is like being a drug dealer who gifts someone their first hit of heroin. The user goes from a euphoric rush to abject desolation. Staying addicted in hope of avoiding the inevitable is a painful act of futility.
Edited by waysiderspelling
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T-Bone
what an insightful post, Waysider!
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Nathan_Jr
Thanks for this post, Waysider. Spot on!
Can you provide anymore details to flesh out this record?Just curious.
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WordWolf
So,
most of us, after the 1st session, were told to have "Christians Should Be Prosperous" read before the next session (the book was an argument for tithing to twi).
twi also taught "abundant sharing." In twi, the tithe was/is MANDATORY, although the Christian's donations are to be freewill and not "of necessity" (in other words, NOT MANDATORY.) Supposedly, 10 percent is the minimum, less than that and "God won't even spit in your direction." (lcm primarily.) That's "the seed."
Donations above 10 percent were called "abundant sharing." This got a bit confusing when the tithe (from the word "TENTH") was raised to 15 percent then 20 percent under lcm. Man, THAT didn't last long..... So, people were encouraged to donate directly to twi above 10 percent.
Then there's "plurality giving." Ever heard that term outside of twi? In twi, that meant taking your income, subtracting all you need to live on, and donating the rest directly to twi- as in HQ, NEVER locally. So, you were not supposed to save money for emergencies or investments. You were to trust twi that God would cover you in case of emergencies. As for investments like a house, in practice it was expected that you count on inheritences to give you a house, since otherwise you won't be handing all that cash over to twi.
Outside of twi - and possibly ex-twi groups- neither the term nor the concept- are taught. Then again, I haven't checked cults. No Christian denomination teaches it.
twi, from the beginning, was organized to turn a profit. Pfal was set up to sell the materials at RETAIL prices, guaranteeing a profit. It was held in homes where the locals covered all expenses. It pushed tithing (see above.) Intermediate was even more egregious about retail prices, since you got almost no materials. ROAs were always priced with everything RETAIL. And so on. Everything either had additional costs that weren't covering an obvious need, or was on its own expense. Want to go WOW? There's a flat fee of $200 that twi keeps- and gives back nothing in exchange. The rest of the fee is for you to find housing where you're assigned. The group is chosen with an eye towards who has a car. twi does not transport the groups, nor pay for gas or housing. Any help with housing is out-of-pocket for LOCALS, who ALWAYS pay the check in twi. And the main goal in WOW is to run pfal classes- which run at a profit for twi and attempt to reel in more suckers to get 10 percent or more of their income.
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OldSkool
Ive learned to put on my readers. I used to accept things at face value and that led me to rush headlong into TWI, way corps, etc. To be clear though, there are a lot of things I learned in the way corps/way corps training that benefit me to this day. However, in the big picture I could have had similar experiences without signing my life over to be heavily micromanaged for four years. But - yes - today I check everything out and really try to poke all kinds of holes in whatever I am into.
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OldSkool
Awesome posts guys!
If one is to follow the official propognda put out by the way international then they remain blind to the obvious - TWI is about making MONEY - especially back in Vics day. They ran through those donations with reckless abandon all the way up to the lawsuits - So that includes Criag, Donna, Rosalie, et. al. Once the lawyers were involved they introduced legalese such as "private inurement" into the system. So yeah, it's still a gravy train for the inner circle - they have just kinda quited down all the illegal spending. They try to make it seem legit. Like Rosalie paying TWI $10 a pop to have the grounds department mow her property. Considering the size, she would have easlily paid $50 or more. But that punk butt $10 leaves a paper trail where they can say -- "See...I paid." So yeah, they paid their lawyers God knows what sort of $$ out of donations from their followers to learn how to get over on their own system and get away with it. How's that for your abundant swharing at work.
One thing is for sure: most long standing way corps have nowhere else to go and really can't fit in very well anywhere else. They NEEED that headquarters lifestyle - they are too vested to do anything else.
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T-Bone
Yeah, a few the things my wife and I learned in the way corps was to keep a stiff upper lip, going the second mile, and to walk circumspectly even when walking through a snake pit. Getting back into our careers – my wife and I would swap work-battle stories.
Some of the challenges in the way corps prepared us for facing trouble in the real world – like: not giving up in the face of adversity, completing an assigned task whether I like doing it or not, and staying on top of details and taking deliberate thoughtful steps…That last point was critical working in security – save all emails – ask for verification or confirmation via email when a supervisor or client gave me a verbal “change order”…inspired by the way corps motto “it is written”
Our silent mantra whenever we were under fire at work was “I’m corps dammit”
now we're both retired...so we just have battles at home
so we kinda cancel each other out "I'm corps dammit" versus "big deal, so am I" 
funny story my wife overhead a corps couple having a fight - the wife said to hubby "you're so perfect you're the antichrist" true story - I swear on my corps notes!
Edited by T-Bonego the second smile...style...tile...no it's mile
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