As far as tackling the Trinity doctrine – I’ve been doing that for some 36 years now since I left…just to give opposing views an easy targetI usually say I’m a Trinitarian now – but a lot of my beliefs are in a state of flux since I left which means I have a lot of wiggle room…looking into verses that suggest the divinity of Christ is one way to unpack the idea of Christ’s identity…
...I don’t see anything in the Bible forbidding me to believe Jesus Christ is divine – as part of the Trinity. I don’t see Him as one and the same as the Father or the Holy Spirit…but there’s no denying there are ample Scripture that indicates in some way all 3 are interconnected – even though how it works is inexplicable to our finite minds. This is a lifelong study project of mine. I love the challenge – not to be able to explain it…but to learn more and more how…somehow…The Father, Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit work together.
Pretty cool. Yes there probably is ample Biblical evidence to write a sequel to JCNG called Jesus Christ Is God.
Could both be sold together as a discounted package deal lol?
I’m thinking about this for a while then will get a doctrinal thread going.
"...she had a need. And the need was, 'they might as well be red drapes.'"
Only in twi can the definition of a "need" include "they might as well" in it.
You got me thinking what were the chances of there being red drapes on - what was it - in an apartment the lady was looking for? How big an area are we looking at? And it’s not like she was asking for drapes that had the American flag , the constitution and the Declaration of Independence on them . It wasn’t that unique a request. And that was an example of using the law of believing?
and the other example of believing in reverse - fear in PFAL . What killed that little boy? Tragic accident? Yes. But was that so unusual? I don’t mean to sound crass but people get killed all the time - riding in cars, as pedestrians, killed by drunk drivers. Why link that little boy’s death to his mother’s fear?
what kind of consoling would wierwille do at a funeral? “Uhm, ma’am did your son take the PFALclass? Did you? Were you afraid your son was going to die one day? Here’s a green PFAL signup card - which one of these 10 benefits of the class would you like the most?”
She should have just said she was afraid she would only be able to find apartments with red drapes. Skip all the other steps. Fear is power in the machinery of...apartment hunting.
She should have just said she was afraid she would only be able to find apartments with red drapes. Skip all the other steps. Fear is power in the machinery of...apartment hunting.
Fear is sand in the cement mixer of life…Jimmy “Blue Eyes” is making you some concrete shoes
Salt is like sand in the Margaritta of life…wasting away again in Margaritaville
105. Picks at perceived harmony of the gospel errors to establish the teacher as the only one in Christianity that “got that right”. Next logical error “if you can’t trust them on 4 crucified how can you trust them on the details of the new birth?” Next step in the path down - splinter off from other Christian fellowship contact and communication and allow a cult to assume spiritual authority for you.
107. A. wierwille is self-appointed distributor of the abilities of the Holy Spirit.
Part A: why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated?
Excerpts from the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), Whiteside is interviewing wierwille, pages 195ff:
I begin asking Doctor questions, “But what was the event that happened before you led Amil Schaffner into receiving the holy spirit? What happened?”
“I guess that day was the second most important event in my life – after the day that God spoke to me in that old dentist’s office in Payne – the day I received into manifestation the holy spirit and spoke in tongues. I had been searching for years for more understanding of the Word, of the power we have in Christ Jesus. I’d tried all kinds of denominations, all kinds of trips. I’d gone to Pentecostal groups, to all kinds. I can’t remember them all.”
“I had worked all 385 verses in the Bible that spoke of the Holy Spirit. I knew very verse from memory. I had seen in the book of Acts how they spoke in tongues, and I’d gone to every group I’d heard of that I thought might give me more light on it”…
…“ I’d asked the greatest minds, theologians, in the country about receiving the holy spirit. No one could help me. I just knew that all I was seeing was flesh, not spirit.”…
… ”…was the winter of 1951. I flew to Tulsa, checked into the hotel, and went over to where the meeting was that night. It was a big rally. I met someone, told him my need, and he got all excited. He said he’d introduce me to some great men. They’d lay hands on me and lead me into tongues.”
“So before the meeting they got together, nine great men, in one room. They started praying, then three or four laid hands on me, and finally one of them said, ‘Speak another language.’ So, I spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started jumping up and down. They thought it was great. They didn’t know Greek. They said I had received and told me to speak another language.”
“So I did. I spoke in Hebrew – quoted from Genesis, and they just got all excited, congratulating themselves about it.”
“But in my heart, I knew I wasn’t speaking in tongues. You see, they’d just told me to speak in another language.; they never taught me or showed me the accuracy of the Word on this. They said ‘another language’ and I spoke another language.”
“At the big meeting that night one of the men stood up and told the two to three thousand that the had just led an Evangelical and Reformed minister from Van Wert into tongues. He was on an ego trip about it, but I was just sick of the whole thing. Sick of the lying. I knew it was a lie. I was ready to go home.”
“…there was a blizzard in Tulsa…The city was snowbound. I just couldn’t get out!”
…”The next morning, I still hadn’t left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel…a woman came over to me, and said, ‘I think God sent a man here to meet your need. Meet me at 9 a.m.’ I thought, ‘Women never tell the truth.’ But then I reconsidered, since I was stuck in town anyway. So I decided to meet her.”
“I got to the place she said at 9a.m. and there she was. She introduced me to a man named J.E. Stiles. He’d come in from the West Coast. A few days before, God had told him to go to Tulsa to minister the holy spirit to one man. We talked for a few minutes, and he suggested we go into the rally to hear Oral Roberts and then meet for lunch.”
“So that’s what we did. At lunchtime Stiles came in with his wife and the pianist. I just remember thinking to myself, ‘There aren’t going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.’ I was just watching and waiting. Lunch was kind of light talk – we talked about Oral Roberts, the Holy Spirit, lots of stuff. When we were done, I pecked up the check, and then Stiles turned to his wife and said, ‘Honey, I’m going with VP.’ She said something to him like, ‘How long will you be?’ And he said, ‘That’s none of your business.’ That was it, my opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes, just from the way he handled her.”
“We left the women and went up to my room. Stiles began to teach me from Acts 2:1-4, and many other verses…We worked till 3 p.m. Finally, I believed and spoke in tongues. I didn’t know the language. It was like a burning light…”
“You see, learning is a process. You don’t learn overnight. The holy spirit field – that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it."
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
I leave it to Grease Spotters to consider the very revealing words of a con artist. It’s possible one can have such delusions of grandeur that they believe their mission is not a con – but to help people. I am not challenging his motivation or intent. They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. People may want to do the right thing and follow what they think is the right way to do something. But that doesn’t mean what they’re doing is right. I believe in a lot of religions – and cults - people are not always aware of their sin nature and believe if they do this “good thing”, there is a reward waiting for them.
There are a few things in those excerpts that are very telling about wierwille. In his narrative he comes across as misogynistic– considering the culture and times that seems about par. And I think that attitude permeated his ministry for a long time – I can’t speak for the TWI-mindset after I left in ’86.
Also, my suspicion is drawn to wierwille knowing how to fake tongues. He spoke Greek and Hebrew (from PFAL material I know that biblical languages were not his long suit ). He doesn’t say who these men were or what their qualifications were who led him to “speak another language” but if they were leaders at this rally – I would assume they were pastors and/or theologians familiar with the biblical languages and would have recognized wierwille quoting from Genesis and John – or even to a serious Bible student like myself – I would have picked up on those very familiar passages since I’ve done a number of studies with an interlinear text and lexicons.
Another thing that stuck out to me was wierwille’s comment “You don’t learn overnight.” That’s true – but in reference to the abilities that the Holy Spirit distributes – nothing needs to be taught. I Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 indicate it’s the Holy Spirit who does the distributing and empowering. Besides that – some other big points of those chapters are that Christians are to do all with the proper attitude and it should be orderly with a view to the benefit of the body of believers in that local church.
And the last paragraph of excerpts exemplifies what a know-it-all cult-leader sounds like. wierwille said “that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it.”
So, why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated? Contrary to what wierwille taught - it’s not!
In part B I’ll get into the simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way.
end of part A
~ ~ ~ ~
Edited by T-Bone a typo know-it-all doesn't know it's a typo...LOL
She said something to him like, ‘How long will you be?’ And he said, ‘That’s none of your business.’ That was it, my [Victor's] opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes, just from the way he handled her.”
I don't get this attitude from the early, authentic letters of Paul.
It could be that I just don't know how (H-O-W) to read the YourBelieving+ChristInYou+TheBible+YourWalk.
My daughter and I got into the Charlie's Angels movies - Bernie played Bosley in the CA: Full Throttle - one of my favorite parts is when he's trying to infiltrate these shady Irish dock workers - Bernie pulls up with a forklift and the security dude checks his ID - and has this doubtful look on his face - Bernie says "I'm Black Irish"
107. B. wierwille is self-appointed distributor of the abilities of the Holy Spirit.
Part B: The simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way.
This part was so easy to write because I’m just going to point out a few passages inCorinthians 12and leave the rest up to you and the Holy Spirit. I’m not trying to avoid explaining the simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way. This isn’t based on self-determination once you learn certain steps, like what wierwille led many to believe…as if a man in-person, in a book or speaking in an audio or video PFAL class could confer on you a supernatural ability or teach you how to exercise it.
Also keep in mind, I Corinthians 12, 13, & 14 address primarily varieties in speaking gifts.
A case can be made that certain of these gifts were limited to the apostolic age to authenticate the apostles and their gospel message. We have God’s written Word - its unique origin, purpose, authority besides being superintended by the Holy Spirit endow it with a self-authenticating feature. The Word of God has authority in itself, and consequently does not rely upon external sources to verify its infallibility. (remember in an earlier post I explained the difference between infallibility and inerrancy -here)
There are other gifts of the Spirit intended for service see:
Spiritual gifts refer to abilities energized by the Holy Spirit and used in service to the church.
For the sake of brevity rather than going back and forth comparing what wierwille wrote to what the biblical text states – I will mention in passing a few of his dubious comments and simply post some parallel passages. My point is to show the simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way – as it’s simply put in I Peter 4:11:
Amplified Bible Whoever speaks [to the congregation], is to do so as one who speaks the oracles (utterances, the very words) of God. Whoever serves [the congregation] is to do so as one who serves by the strength which God [abundantly] supplies, so that in all things God may be glorified [honored and magnified] through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
You don’t have to take classes or have someone teach you how to exercise these gifts – Peter says to just get busy speaking or serving by the power which God supplies.
~ ~ ~ ~
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.I Corinthians 12
Verses 4 to 7 inform us that the Holy Spirit alone supernaturally and sovereignly bestows abilities on all believers for the common good. It’s not the work of some minister…not from a book or video class!
In the following translation i marked in bold red the references to the Holy Spirit being in charge of the distribution:
4Now there are [distinctive] varieties of spiritual gifts [special abilities given by the grace and extraordinary power of the Holy Spirit operating in believers], but it is the same Spirit[who grants them and empowers believers]. 5And there are [distinctive] varieties of ministries and service, but it is the same Lord[who is served]. 6And there are [distinctive] ways of working [to accomplish things], but it is the same God who produces all things in all believers [inspiring, energizing, and empowering them].
7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit [the spiritual illumination and the enabling of the Holy Spirit] for the common good.
8To one is given through the [Holy] Spirit [the power to speak] the message of wisdom, and to another [the power to express] the word of knowledge and understanding according to the same Spirit; 9to another [wonder-working] faith [is given] by the same[Holy] Spirit, and to another the [extraordinary] gifts of healings by the one Spirit; 10and to another the working of [a]miracles, and to another prophecy [foretelling the future, speaking a new message from God to the people], and to another discernment of spirits [the ability to distinguish sound, godly doctrine from the deceptive doctrine of man-made religions and cults], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues. 11All these things [the gifts, the achievements, the abilities, the empowering] are brought about by one and the same[Holy] Spirit, distributing to each one individually just as He chooses.
you might remember from the PFAL class, wierwille likened the holy spirit (and in his written work he used lower case “h” and “s” to make a distinction it was something separate from God) to a car battery – one power source that energized all the electrical components in an automobile. He also stressed that they were distributed as each Christian chooses – according to their believing. In PFAL he spends a lot of time in several sessions to go through instances in the book of Acts that mention speaking in tongues – but the verses do not indicate any instructions on the mechanics of speaking in tongues were taught. And he goes into other passages to alleviate fears and doubts – but the passages do not address speaking in tongues.
wierwille usually had a tendency to overcomplicate things and had the audacity to set himself up as the master of ceremonies for introducing followers to his idea of speaking in tongues.
We read in The Way: Living in Love wierwille appointed himself distributor of the abilities of the Holy Spirit. Just like his teaching of “the Word takes the place of the absent Christ”, wierwille also marginalized the Holy Spirit…The book of Peter mentions the possibility of false prophets and false teachers arising in the church…ignoring…denying the immanent lordship of Jesus Christ, introducing insidious destructive heresies - and in their greed they will exploit Christians with deceptive claims and perverse doctrine:
1But [in those days] false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will subtly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways, and because of them the way of truth will be maligned. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with false arguments and twisted doctrine. Their sentence [of condemnation which God has decreed] from a time long ago is not idle [but is still in force], and their destruction and deepening misery is not asleep [but is on its way]. II Peter 2
End of Part B: The simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way
107. B. wierwille is self-appointed distributor of the abilities of the Holy Spirit.
Part B: The simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way.
This part was so easy to write because I’m just going to point out a few passages inCorinthians 12and leave the rest up to you and the Holy Spirit. I’m not trying to avoid explaining the simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way. This isn’t based on self-determination once you learn certain steps, like what wierwille led many to believe…as if a man in-person, in a book or speaking in an audio or video PFAL class could confer on you a supernatural ability or teach you how to exercise it.
Also keep in mind, I Corinthians 12, 13, & 14 address primarily varieties in speaking gifts.
A a case can be made that certain of these gifts were limited to the apostolic age to authenticate the apostles and their gospel message. We have God’s written Word - its unique origin, purpose, authority besides being superintended by the Holy Spirit endow it with a self-authenticating feature. The Word of God has authority in itself, and consequently does not rely upon external sources to verify its infallibility. (remember in an earlier post I explained the difference between infallibility and inerrancy -here)
There are other gifts of the Spirit intended for service see:
Spiritual gifts refer to abilities energized by the Holy Spirit and used in service to the church.
For the sake of brevity rather than going back and forth comparing what wierwille wrote to what the biblical text states – I will mention in passing a few of his dubious comments and simply post some parallel passages. My point is to show the simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way – as it’s simply put in I Peter 4:11:
Amplified Bible Whoever speaks [to the congregation], is to do so as one who speaks the oracles (utterances, the very words) of God. Whoever serves [the congregation] is to do so as one who serves by the strength which God [abundantly] supplies, so that in all things God may be glorified [honored and magnified] through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
You don’t have to take classes or have someone teach you how to exercise these gifts – Peter says to just get busy speaking or serving by the power which God supplies.
~ ~ ~ ~
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.I Corinthians 12
Verses 4 to 7 inform us that the Holy Spirit alone supernaturally and sovereignly bestows abilities on all believers for the common good. It’s not the work of some minister…not from a book or video class! I the follow translation i marked in bold red the references to the Holy Spirit being in charge of the distribution:
4Now there are [distinctive] varieties of spiritual gifts [special abilities given by the grace and extraordinary power of the Holy Spirit operating in believers], but it is the same Spirit[who grants them and empowers believers]. 5And there are [distinctive] varieties of ministries and service, but it is the same Lord[who is served]. 6And there are [distinctive] ways of working [to accomplish things], but it is the same God who produces all things in all believers [inspiring, energizing, and empowering them].
7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit [the spiritual illumination and the enabling of the Holy Spirit] for the common good.
8To one is given through the [Holy] Spirit [the power to speak] the message of wisdom, and to another [the power to express] the word of knowledge and understanding according to the same Spirit; 9to another [wonder-working] faith [is given] by the same[Holy] Spirit, and to another the [extraordinary] gifts of healings by the one Spirit; 10and to another the working of [a]miracles, and to another prophecy [foretelling the future, speaking a new message from God to the people], and to another discernment of spirits [the ability to distinguish sound, godly doctrine from the deceptive doctrine of man-made religions and cults], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues. 11All these things [the gifts, the achievements, the abilities, the empowering] are brought about by one and the same[Holy] Spirit, distributing to each one individually just as He chooses.
you might remember from the PFAL class, wierwille likened the holy spirit (and in his written work he used lower case “h” and “s” to make a distinction it was something separate from God) to a car battery – one power source that energized all the electrical components in an automobile. He also stressed that they were distributed as each Christian chooses – according to their believing. In PFAL he spends a lot of time in several sessions to go through instances in the book of Acts that mention speaking in tongues – but the verses do not indicate any instructions on the mechanics of speaking in tongues were taught. And he goes into other passages to alleviate fears and doubts – but the passages do not address speaking in tongues.
wierwille usually had a tendency to overcomplicate things and had the audacity to set himself up as the master of ceremonies for introducing followers to his idea of speaking in tongues.
We read in The Way: Living in Love wierwille appointed himself distributor of the abilities of the Holy Spirit. Just like his teaching of “the Word takes the place of the absent Christ”, wierwille also marginalized the Holy Spirit…The book of Peter mentions the possibility of false prophets and false teachers arising in the church…ignoring…denying the immanent lordship of Jesus Christ, introducing insidious destructive heresies - and in their greed they will exploit Christians with deceptive claims and perverse doctrine:
1But [in those days] false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will subtly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways, and because of them the way of truth will be maligned. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with false arguments and twisted doctrine. Their sentence [of condemnation which God has decreed] from a time long ago is not idle [but is still in force], and their destruction and deepening misery is not asleep [but is on its way]. II Peter 2
End of Part B: The simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way
107. B. wierwille is self-appointed distributor of the abilities of the Holy Spirit.
Part B: The simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way.
This part was so easy to write because I’m just going to point out a few passages inCorinthians 12and leave the rest up to you and the Holy Spirit. I’m not trying to avoid explaining the simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way. This isn’t based on self-determination once you learn certain steps, like what wierwille led many to believe…as if a man in-person, in a book or speaking in an audio or video PFAL class could confer on you a supernatural ability or teach you how to exercise it.
Also keep in mind, I Corinthians 12, 13, & 14 address primarily varieties in speaking gifts.
A case can be made that certain of these gifts were limited to the apostolic age to authenticate the apostles and their gospel message. We have God’s written Word - its unique origin, purpose, authority besides being superintended by the Holy Spirit endow it with a self-authenticating feature. The Word of God has authority in itself, and consequently does not rely upon external sources to verify its infallibility. (remember in an earlier post I explained the difference between infallibility and inerrancy -here)
There are other gifts of the Spirit intended for service see:
Spiritual gifts refer to abilities energized by the Holy Spirit and used in service to the church.
For the sake of brevity rather than going back and forth comparing what wierwille wrote to what the biblical text states – I will mention in passing a few of his dubious comments and simply post some parallel passages. My point is to show the simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way – as it’s simply put in I Peter 4:11:
Amplified Bible Whoever speaks [to the congregation], is to do so as one who speaks the oracles (utterances, the very words) of God. Whoever serves [the congregation] is to do so as one who serves by the strength which God [abundantly] supplies, so that in all things God may be glorified [honored and magnified] through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
You don’t have to take classes or have someone teach you how to exercise these gifts – Peter says to just get busy speaking or serving by the power which God supplies.
~ ~ ~ ~
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.I Corinthians 12
Verses 4 to 7 inform us that the Holy Spirit alone supernaturally and sovereignly bestows abilities on all believers for the common good. It’s not the work of some minister…not from a book or video class!
In the following translation i marked in bold red the references to the Holy Spirit being in charge of the distribution:
4Now there are [distinctive] varieties of spiritual gifts [special abilities given by the grace and extraordinary power of the Holy Spirit operating in believers], but it is the same Spirit[who grants them and empowers believers]. 5And there are [distinctive] varieties of ministries and service, but it is the same Lord[who is served]. 6And there are [distinctive] ways of working [to accomplish things], but it is the same God who produces all things in all believers [inspiring, energizing, and empowering them].
7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit [the spiritual illumination and the enabling of the Holy Spirit] for the common good.
8To one is given through the [Holy] Spirit [the power to speak] the message of wisdom, and to another [the power to express] the word of knowledge and understanding according to the same Spirit; 9to another [wonder-working] faith [is given] by the same[Holy] Spirit, and to another the [extraordinary] gifts of healings by the one Spirit; 10and to another the working of [a]miracles, and to another prophecy [foretelling the future, speaking a new message from God to the people], and to another discernment of spirits [the ability to distinguish sound, godly doctrine from the deceptive doctrine of man-made religions and cults], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues. 11All these things [the gifts, the achievements, the abilities, the empowering] are brought about by one and the same[Holy] Spirit, distributing to each one individually just as He chooses.
you might remember from the PFAL class, wierwille likened the holy spirit (and in his written work he used lower case “h” and “s” to make a distinction it was something separate from God) to a car battery – one power source that energized all the electrical components in an automobile. He also stressed that they were distributed as each Christian chooses – according to their believing. In PFAL he spends a lot of time in several sessions to go through instances in the book of Acts that mention speaking in tongues – but the verses do not indicate any instructions on the mechanics of speaking in tongues were taught. And he goes into other passages to alleviate fears and doubts – but the passages do not address speaking in tongues.
wierwille usually had a tendency to overcomplicate things and had the audacity to set himself up as the master of ceremonies for introducing followers to his idea of speaking in tongues.
We read in The Way: Living in Love wierwille appointed himself distributor of the abilities of the Holy Spirit. Just like his teaching of “the Word takes the place of the absent Christ”, wierwille also marginalized the Holy Spirit…The book of Peter mentions the possibility of false prophets and false teachers arising in the church…ignoring…denying the immanent lordship of Jesus Christ, introducing insidious destructive heresies - and in their greed they will exploit Christians with deceptive claims and perverse doctrine:
1But [in those days] false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will subtly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways, and because of them the way of truth will be maligned. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with false arguments and twisted doctrine. Their sentence [of condemnation which God has decreed] from a time long ago is not idle [but is still in force], and their destruction and deepening misery is not asleep [but is on its way]. II Peter 2
End of Part B: The simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way
~ ~ ~ ~
Nice work. It is amazing when you go back over the epistles without waybrain certain things do stand out.
I feel in my heart truths in the HS field like talents and abilities being enhanced as opposed to an iron man suit approach.
I think the purpose of the iron man suit was to set VP up like Tony Stark the billionaire hero who saved the world and operated all 5 “gift ministries”.
But don’t get me started on that bullshonta. Like everything else it is a facade interpretation of what God really wants for the functioning of the body of Christ.
I feel in my heart truths in the HS field like talents and abilities being enhanced as opposed to an iron man suit approach.
Think this is right. "Ministries" are the things that, actually, you don't even realise you have - you just feel compelled to do certain things along Godly lines. You want to care for people (pastor them), or preach (evangelise), or expound (teach). Some people just seem to know the right Godly direction (prophets, perhaps). Apostles? Not sure there. Who really are our apostles today? Are there any? (I can tell you someone who definitely wasn't one!)
Disregard anything you learned in TWI about HS/hs. Relax into knowing God, just knowing; and then you'll find peaceful understanding. Not confusion.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
120
259
157
205
Popular Days
Nov 2
154
Oct 30
111
Nov 3
106
Nov 4
104
Top Posters In This Topic
Mike 120 posts
T-Bone 259 posts
OldSkool 157 posts
Nathan_Jr 205 posts
Popular Days
Nov 2 2022
154 posts
Oct 30 2022
111 posts
Nov 3 2022
106 posts
Nov 4 2022
104 posts
Popular Posts
penworks
VPW's statement that the Bible interprets itself is nonsense. The act of interpretation of any text is done by the reader of the text. People interpret what they read. They are the ones who give it me
waysider
And in doing so, he was violating his own "To Whom it is Written" rule.
Charity
What I see in what you wrote Chockfull is that we were meant to have a relationship with the class - you know the one that replaced our relationship with Christ. It was our lord in that it had power,
Posted Images
So_crates
Also: how to receive it and have your needs and wants parallel.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
104. Fire engine red drapes
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Pretty cool. Yes there probably is ample Biblical evidence to write a sequel to JCNG called Jesus Christ Is God.
Could both be sold together as a discounted package deal lol?
I’m thinking about this for a while then will get a doctrinal thread going.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
sounds great!
I'm looking forward to it!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
and make sure they're fire-resistant red drapes...for when those new students LoShonta like a house afire
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Who in the AF wants fire engine red drapes? Exactly no one. The story is complete fiction. Bad fiction.
Poor victor. Bless his little black heart.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
The phrasing was memorable.
"...she had a need. And the need was, 'they might as well be red drapes.'"
Only in twi can the definition of a "need" include "they might as well" in it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
You got me thinking what were the chances of there being red drapes on - what was it - in an apartment the lady was looking for? How big an area are we looking at? And it’s not like she was asking for drapes that had the American flag , the constitution and the Declaration of Independence on them . It wasn’t that unique a request. And that was an example of using the law of believing?
and the other example of believing in reverse - fear in PFAL . What killed that little boy? Tragic accident? Yes. But was that so unusual? I don’t mean to sound crass but people get killed all the time - riding in cars, as pedestrians, killed by drunk drivers. Why link that little boy’s death to his mother’s fear?
what kind of consoling would wierwille do at a funeral? “Uhm, ma’am did your son take the PFALclass? Did you? Were you afraid your son was going to die one day? Here’s a green PFAL signup card - which one of these 10 benefits of the class would you like the most?”
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Red Drapes:
She should have just said she was afraid she would only be able to find apartments with red drapes. Skip all the other steps. Fear is power in the machinery of...apartment hunting.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Fear is sand in the cement mixer of life…Jimmy “Blue Eyes” is making you some concrete shoes
Salt is like sand in the Margaritta of life…wasting away again in Margaritaville
People are like fodder in the Wood Chipper of life…ding ding ding – daily double pun - that's 2 extra gross out points ! – Soylent Green is people and wood chipper scene in Fargo
Edited by T-Bonethe editor eats Soylent green and his mother wears compost boots
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
105. Picks at perceived harmony of the gospel errors to establish the teacher as the only one in Christianity that “got that right”. Next logical error “if you can’t trust them on 4 crucified how can you trust them on the details of the new birth?” Next step in the path down - splinter off from other Christian fellowship contact and communication and allow a cult to assume spiritual authority for you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
106. You’re only as free as the cult-leader says you’re free
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
And that's only if you pay at least 10% or more of your income....freedom is not free....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
107. A. wierwille is self-appointed distributor of the abilities of the Holy Spirit.
Part A: why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated?
Excerpts from the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), Whiteside is interviewing wierwille, pages 195ff:
I begin asking Doctor questions, “But what was the event that happened before you led Amil Schaffner into receiving the holy spirit? What happened?”
“I guess that day was the second most important event in my life – after the day that God spoke to me in that old dentist’s office in Payne – the day I received into manifestation the holy spirit and spoke in tongues. I had been searching for years for more understanding of the Word, of the power we have in Christ Jesus. I’d tried all kinds of denominations, all kinds of trips. I’d gone to Pentecostal groups, to all kinds. I can’t remember them all.”
“I had worked all 385 verses in the Bible that spoke of the Holy Spirit. I knew very verse from memory. I had seen in the book of Acts how they spoke in tongues, and I’d gone to every group I’d heard of that I thought might give me more light on it”…
…“ I’d asked the greatest minds, theologians, in the country about receiving the holy spirit. No one could help me. I just knew that all I was seeing was flesh, not spirit.”…
… ”…was the winter of 1951. I flew to Tulsa, checked into the hotel, and went over to where the meeting was that night. It was a big rally. I met someone, told him my need, and he got all excited. He said he’d introduce me to some great men. They’d lay hands on me and lead me into tongues.”
“So before the meeting they got together, nine great men, in one room. They started praying, then three or four laid hands on me, and finally one of them said, ‘Speak another language.’ So, I spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started jumping up and down. They thought it was great. They didn’t know Greek. They said I had received and told me to speak another language.”
“So I did. I spoke in Hebrew – quoted from Genesis, and they just got all excited, congratulating themselves about it.”
“But in my heart, I knew I wasn’t speaking in tongues. You see, they’d just told me to speak in another language.; they never taught me or showed me the accuracy of the Word on this. They said ‘another language’ and I spoke another language.”
“At the big meeting that night one of the men stood up and told the two to three thousand that the had just led an Evangelical and Reformed minister from Van Wert into tongues. He was on an ego trip about it, but I was just sick of the whole thing. Sick of the lying. I knew it was a lie. I was ready to go home.”
“…there was a blizzard in Tulsa…The city was snowbound. I just couldn’t get out!”
…”The next morning, I still hadn’t left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel…a woman came over to me, and said, ‘I think God sent a man here to meet your need. Meet me at 9 a.m.’ I thought, ‘Women never tell the truth.’ But then I reconsidered, since I was stuck in town anyway. So I decided to meet her.”
“I got to the place she said at 9a.m. and there she was. She introduced me to a man named J.E. Stiles. He’d come in from the West Coast. A few days before, God had told him to go to Tulsa to minister the holy spirit to one man. We talked for a few minutes, and he suggested we go into the rally to hear Oral Roberts and then meet for lunch.”
“So that’s what we did. At lunchtime Stiles came in with his wife and the pianist. I just remember thinking to myself, ‘There aren’t going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.’ I was just watching and waiting. Lunch was kind of light talk – we talked about Oral Roberts, the Holy Spirit, lots of stuff. When we were done, I pecked up the check, and then Stiles turned to his wife and said, ‘Honey, I’m going with VP.’ She said something to him like, ‘How long will you be?’ And he said, ‘That’s none of your business.’ That was it, my opinion of him as a man went up 99 percent. His stature increased in my eyes, just from the way he handled her.”
“We left the women and went up to my room. Stiles began to teach me from Acts 2:1-4, and many other verses…We worked till 3 p.m. Finally, I believed and spoke in tongues. I didn’t know the language. It was like a burning light…”
“You see, learning is a process. You don’t learn overnight. The holy spirit field – that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it."
End of excerpts
~ ~ ~ ~
I leave it to Grease Spotters to consider the very revealing words of a con artist. It’s possible one can have such delusions of grandeur that they believe their mission is not a con – but to help people. I am not challenging his motivation or intent. They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. People may want to do the right thing and follow what they think is the right way to do something. But that doesn’t mean what they’re doing is right. I believe in a lot of religions – and cults - people are not always aware of their sin nature and believe if they do this “good thing”, there is a reward waiting for them.
There are a few things in those excerpts that are very telling about wierwille. In his narrative he comes across as misogynistic – considering the culture and times that seems about par. And I think that attitude permeated his ministry for a long time – I can’t speak for the TWI-mindset after I left in ’86.
Also, my suspicion is drawn to wierwille knowing how to fake tongues. He spoke Greek and Hebrew (from PFAL material I know that biblical languages were not his long suit
). He doesn’t say who these men were or what their qualifications were who led him to “speak another language” but if they were leaders at this rally – I would assume they were pastors and/or theologians familiar with the biblical languages and would have recognized wierwille quoting from Genesis and John – or even to a serious Bible student like myself – I would have picked up on those very familiar passages since I’ve done a number of studies with an interlinear text and lexicons.
Another thing that stuck out to me was wierwille’s comment “You don’t learn overnight.” That’s true – but in reference to the abilities that the Holy Spirit distributes – nothing needs to be taught. I Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 indicate it’s the Holy Spirit who does the distributing and empowering. Besides that – some other big points of those chapters are that Christians are to do all with the proper attitude and it should be orderly with a view to the benefit of the body of believers in that local church.
And the last paragraph of excerpts exemplifies what a know-it-all cult-leader sounds like. wierwille said “that’s the field God raised me up for. There’s not a question that cannot be answered biblically. And there’s no one I can’t lead into speaking in tongues if they are Christian and want to do it.”
So, why does exercising a God-given ability have to be so complicated? Contrary to what wierwille taught - it’s not!
In part B I’ll get into the simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way.
end of part A
~ ~ ~ ~
Edited by T-Bonea typo know-it-all doesn't know it's a typo...LOL
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
I don't get this attitude from the early, authentic letters of Paul.
It could be that I just don't know how (H-O-W) to read the YourBelieving+ChristInYou+TheBible+YourWalk.
Edited by Nathan_JrLink to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
yeah and if you think about it Paul lived in a male dominated culture - and wierwille even outdoes that
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
That's riiight. Orders of magnitude more patriarchal than mid-20th century Merica.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
hode up ! hode up! did you just say mid-20th century Merica?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Gawd, I miss Bernie Mac!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
me too!
I loved his TV show
My daughter and I got into the Charlie's Angels movies - Bernie played Bosley in the CA: Full Throttle - one of my favorite parts is when he's trying to infiltrate these shady Irish dock workers - Bernie pulls up with a forklift and the security dude checks his ID - and has this doubtful look on his face - Bernie says "I'm Black Irish"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
107. B. wierwille is self-appointed distributor of the abilities of the Holy Spirit.
Part B: The simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way.
This part was so easy to write because I’m just going to point out a few passages in Corinthians 12 and leave the rest up to you and the Holy Spirit
. I’m not trying to avoid explaining the simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way. This isn’t based on self-determination once you learn certain steps, like what wierwille led many to believe…as if a man in-person, in a book or speaking in an audio or video PFAL class could confer on you a supernatural ability or teach you how to exercise it.
Also keep in mind, I Corinthians 12, 13, & 14 address primarily varieties in speaking gifts.
A case can be made that certain of these gifts were limited to the apostolic age to authenticate the apostles and their gospel message. We have God’s written Word - its unique origin, purpose, authority besides being superintended by the Holy Spirit endow it with a self-authenticating feature. The Word of God has authority in itself, and consequently does not rely upon external sources to verify its infallibility. (remember in an earlier post I explained the difference between infallibility and inerrancy - here )
There are other gifts of the Spirit intended for service see:
Romans 12:3-8
I Corinthians 7:7
Ephesians 4:7-16
I Peter 4:11
Spiritual gifts refer to abilities energized by the Holy Spirit and used in service to the church.
For the sake of brevity rather than going back and forth comparing what wierwille wrote to what the biblical text states – I will mention in passing a few of his dubious comments and simply post some parallel passages. My point is to show the simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way – as it’s simply put in I Peter 4:11:
Amplified Bible
Whoever speaks [to the congregation], is to do so as one who speaks the oracles (utterances, the very words) of God. Whoever serves [the congregation] is to do so as one who serves by the strength which God [abundantly] supplies, so that in all things God may be glorified [honored and magnified] through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
You don’t have to take classes or have someone teach you how to exercise these gifts – Peter says to just get busy speaking or serving by the power which God supplies.
~ ~ ~ ~
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines. I Corinthians 12
Verses 4 to 7 inform us that the Holy Spirit alone supernaturally and sovereignly bestows abilities on all believers for the common good. It’s not the work of some minister…not from a book or video class!
In the following translation i marked in bold red the references to the Holy Spirit being in charge of the distribution:
4Now there are [distinctive] varieties of spiritual gifts [special abilities given by the grace and extraordinary power of the Holy Spirit operating in believers], but it is the same Spirit [who grants them and empowers believers]. 5And there are [distinctive] varieties of ministries and service, but it is the same Lord [who is served]. 6And there are [distinctive] ways of working [to accomplish things], but it is the same God who produces all things in all believers [inspiring, energizing, and empowering them].
7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit [the spiritual illumination and the enabling of the Holy Spirit] for the common good.
8To one is given through the [Holy] Spirit [the power to speak] the message of wisdom, and to another [the power to express] the word of knowledge and understanding according to the same Spirit; 9to another [wonder-working] faith [is given] by the same [Holy] Spirit, and to another the [extraordinary] gifts of healings by the one Spirit; 10and to another the working of [a]miracles, and to another prophecy [foretelling the future, speaking a new message from God to the people], and to another discernment of spirits [the ability to distinguish sound, godly doctrine from the deceptive doctrine of man-made religions and cults], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues. 11All these things [the gifts, the achievements, the abilities, the empowering] are brought about by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, distributing to each one individually just as He chooses.
I Corinthians 12 Amplified
you might remember from the PFAL class, wierwille likened the holy spirit (and in his written work he used lower case “h” and “s” to make a distinction it was something separate from God) to a car battery – one power source that energized all the electrical components in an automobile. He also stressed that they were distributed as each Christian chooses – according to their believing. In PFAL he spends a lot of time in several sessions to go through instances in the book of Acts that mention speaking in tongues – but the verses do not indicate any instructions on the mechanics of speaking in tongues were taught. And he goes into other passages to alleviate fears and doubts – but the passages do not address speaking in tongues.
wierwille usually had a tendency to overcomplicate things and had the audacity to set himself up as the master of ceremonies for introducing followers to his idea of speaking in tongues.
We read in The Way: Living in Love wierwille appointed himself distributor of the abilities of the Holy Spirit. Just like his teaching of “the Word takes the place of the absent Christ”, wierwille also marginalized the Holy Spirit…The book of Peter mentions the possibility of false prophets and false teachers arising in the church…ignoring…denying the immanent lordship of Jesus Christ, introducing insidious destructive heresies - and in their greed they will exploit Christians with deceptive claims and perverse doctrine:
1But [in those days] false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will subtly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways, and because of them the way of truth will be maligned. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with false arguments and twisted doctrine. Their sentence [of condemnation which God has decreed] from a time long ago is not idle [but is still in force], and their destruction and deepening misery is not asleep [but is on its way]. II Peter 2
End of Part B: The simplicity of the Holy Spirit’s way
~ ~ ~ ~
Edited by T-BoneTypos
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Yep. Real simple. Thanks.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Nice work. It is amazing when you go back over the epistles without waybrain certain things do stand out.
I feel in my heart truths in the HS field like talents and abilities being enhanced as opposed to an iron man suit approach.
I think the purpose of the iron man suit was to set VP up like Tony Stark the billionaire hero who saved the world and operated all 5 “gift ministries”.
But don’t get me started on that bullshonta. Like everything else it is a facade interpretation of what God really wants for the functioning of the body of Christ.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Think this is right. "Ministries" are the things that, actually, you don't even realise you have - you just feel compelled to do certain things along Godly lines. You want to care for people (pastor them), or preach (evangelise), or expound (teach). Some people just seem to know the right Godly direction (prophets, perhaps). Apostles? Not sure there. Who really are our apostles today? Are there any? (I can tell you someone who definitely wasn't one!)
Disregard anything you learned in TWI about HS/hs. Relax into knowing God, just knowing; and then you'll find peaceful understanding. Not confusion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.