So then your saying a born again person's freedom of will is different from a natural man's? How?
I am not sure.
I have confined my focus to the most simple possible situation, and hope to build from there.
The most simple situation I know of with free will is a natural man, with body and soul only.
I suspect that early Christian and later (around 1200) Thomas Aquinas confused the whole free will issue by focusing on Christian free will, for those with spirit added. That changes a lot; more than I can inventory. So they had spiritual free will in the Middle Ages.
Later, just about 400 years ago, the Enlightenment Philosophers secularized this spiritual free will into a godless, but still mystical form of free will called different names. Two currently popular names are Libertarian Free Will (LibFW) and the other is Contra-Causal Free Will. They are mystical in the sense that they are almost 100% pure opposites of what is known in science as Determinism, Physics Determinism to be precise.
My approach is to de-mystify free will and look for it in Biology as a deterministic mechanism like digestion. I have to re-define "freedom" here but that is ok, because it needs it.
*/*/*/*
My new approach is to look for freedoms that can be "bought" by using acceptable deterministic patterns to overrule unacceptable deterministic patterns.
In other words, instead of always looking at determinism for the prisons it can make, it can also be used to free us from some prisons. Determinism can be our friend; it can be useful in the brain for making better decisions.
Mike: neurosciencethese days sees human consciousness as a bit of a confabulation.
A profoundly inaccurate assertion.
Here we are talking about neuroscience and free will in the wrong thread, and meanwhile YOUR thread on free will versus determinism languishes under the shadow of some music director.
Maybe I should get things rolling there?
How big is the largest possible post?
I have 5 or 6 chapters on my free will book already written, and it would be nice if I could post an entire chapter in one post.
Instead of silencing me or shuffling me off to a closet, why not look at your own house and see if you are throwing out the PFAL baby with the bathwater.
The PFAL baby should have been aborted back then when it was determined the fetus was grossly deformed, inviable and also would have threatened the cognitive skills and mental health of those so impregnated – talking metaphorically of course…
You’d think this concept of mal-conception is inconceivable – but here we are debating over a student’s right to choose...
I see how things degenerate into food fights about me, and that is not what I want. I try to post what I honestly think people need and have a right to hear, and then I get many responses, to which I try to answer a lot of, and the cycle starts, and soon becomes chaos.
M: I see how things degenerate into food fights about me, and that is not what I want.
T: On the contrary, I can tell that’sexactly what you want!
M: I try to post what I honestly think people need and have a right to hear,
T: No, you don’t! You talk ATpeople and ignore feedback. That’s not communicating - that’s propaganda!
M: and then I get many responses, to which I try to answer a lot of, and the cycle starts, and soon becomes chaos.
T: But you don’ttry to ANSWER. You dodge, obfuscate, bloviate and instigate the chaotic cycle.
I was cooperative and stayed in the Absent Christ thread, then followed it into Doctrinal, then a special thread is made for me in the NT Canon, and then another one made for me in About the Way, and I finally I answer a long standing challenge to respond to penworks so I do in this thread.
You choose the battlefield where you think your context-ignoring inappropriate nonsense will cause the most damage
So then your saying a born again person's freedom of will is different from a natural man's? How?
It is more complicated when spirit is present.
That in itself is good reason to resort to the less complicated, body and soul man.
I don't need to know the exact reasons, and neither do you, to look FIRST at the simple before graduating to the more complex.
*/*/*/*
Now, THAT being said, I might speculate that having spirit means more avenues of learning.
Since my analysis shows free will is a complex learning thing, it is too complicated to consider learning via spirit. Maybe God can boost "will power" via spirit. OK. Now it's your turn to speculate.
PLUS, if I want to make my research marketable to neuroscientists, I must start with the body and soul man. That is all they want to hear about.
I would think someone so deeply immersed in the bible and the study of free will would have looked into it.
Actually, this is one reason I want to post my theory here. I honestly never thought to study free will in angels. Before the Pandemic, I did a lot of free will "surveys" at Star Bucks. It's also a great way to talk to ladies. But I never saw a real angel there, so never studied how they do it or did it. My guess is the Bible says nothing about it, or next to nothing.
That's the way it is with the Bible and free will for people: very skimpy. I was surprised at this in the early 1970s. I could find nothing substantial in the Bible on it. I did get those 3 tips from VPW, though.
Not since victor's regurgitating of Bullinger's four crucified error has someone failed so deeply to understand.
Mike: Insteadof silencing me or shuffling me off to a closet, why not look at your own house and see if you are throwing out the PFAL baby with the bathwater.
Never leave a rotting corpse in the bathtub. Throw that waterhead baby out!
Mike: Ifyou were building a mindful model of what went wrong at TWI, it would notcollapse at my mere posting.
Mike's posting CONFIRMS what is wrong at TWI and PFAL. The only things collapsing are Mike's logical fallacies and failed propositions under the weight of Mike's logical fallacies and failed propositions.
You folks seem to have a anti-idol being constantly manufactured that is very fragile, and all it takes is one thankful PFAL grad to post a few key ideas about the value of PFAL, and all chaos breaks loose.
Instead of silencing me or shuffling me off to a closet, why not look at your own house and see if you are throwing out the PFAL baby with the bathwater.
You once got all caught up and zealous for a movement that turned from mindful to mindless.
So ask yourselves, how immune are you to getting mindlessly caught up in something, today, that turns from mindful to mindless?
If you were building a mindful model of what went wrong at TWI, it would not collapse at my mere posting.
M:You folks seem to have a anti-idol being constantly manufactured that is very fragile, and all it takes is one thankful PFAL grad to post a few key ideas about the value of PFAL, and all chaos breaks loose.
T: let me unscramble the puzzle for those playing along in the Grease Spot Café Home Edition: some folks have very fragile idols named wierwille and PFAL, and sometimes it just takes one Grease Spotter making a valid criticism of wierwille or PFALand “booms-quick” the house of cards belief system in their heads - and presented in a post - falls into chaotic ruin.
M: Instead of silencing me or shuffling me off to a closet, why not look at your own house and see if you are throwing out the PFAL baby with the bathwater.
T: I have yet to see anyone silencing you or shuffling you off to a closet. Perhaps you say this stuff out of frustration for shooting yourself in the foot with a water gun filled with dirty bathwater
M: You once got all caught up and zealous for a movement that turned from mindful to mindless.
T: no charge for me to again unscramble the puzzle for those playing along in the Grease Spot Café Home Edition: This is classic Mike’s reverse-I’m-rubber-you’re-glue-countermeasure – similar to the triple-dog-dare-you that skips the interim double-dog-dare-you protocol…Mike thoughtlessly accuses others of being thoughtless when they have given him every chance to clarify things and explain himself. It's a response to a perceived insult, this maneuver is usually only used by children.
M: So ask yourselves, how immune are you to getting mindlessly caught up in something, today, that turns from mindful to mindless?
T: I’ve had 4 shots of Moderna.
M: If you were building a mindful model of what went wrong at TWI, it would not collapse at my mere posting.
T: oh, we’re back to mental constructs are we? You must enjoy playing 52 card pick-up – cuz your house of cards propaganda - which is in your head and reflected in your posts - collapses under the weight of your own chaos.
PLUS, if I want to make my research marketable to neuroscientists, I must start with the body and soul man. That is all they want to hear about
If you really want to make your "research" marketable to neuroscientists, you'll need to start by getting it peer reviewed and published in a reputable journal.
Mike: "Myapproach is to de-mystify free will and look for it in Biology as a deterministic mechanismlikedigestion. I haveto re-define"freedom"here but thatisok, because it needs it."
So Crates: "The first flaw in your theory: how would you know you have the truth?
And spare me the you have the Word bull. Catholics have the Word and they claim the have the truth. So do Presbyterians. So do Baptists. So does any one of 2500 Christian religions, all claiming they--and only they--have the one true truth. So how do you know when you have the truth?"
Mike:"You sound like academia here. Sorry, you don't get spared. If God can't verify to you when you got the truth then maybe you got the wrong god. If you got the god of academia, you are NOT ALLOWED to have truth or to know if if it lands in your lap."
Once again, Mike's demonstrating a lack of substance. It happens whenever there's a direct question, and this particular question strikes at the heart of Mike's entire belief system- Mike, how would you know you have the truth?
Mike FLED the question and changed the subject. Mike's system has an answer that is FAR too weak to withstand even CASUAL scrutiny, so he does the "dodge, distract, evade, but never admit an error is an error" system he himself posted that he uses.
But, the non-answer has answered quite a bit by what it fled.]
So Crates: "Sorry YOU don't get spared. How do you know you don't THINK God is verifying the truth to you.
Plenty of people have claimed God verified the truth and it was proven their claim was them lying to themselves.
Besides, you've never heard of false prophets?"
So Crates:"Do you read what you write? Or do you fade in and out?
Saint Vic was obsessed with academia. After all, he implied he went to Princeton university and insisted everyone call him doctor. I doubt he had a TARIS hidden somewhere.
So, considering his obsession with academia, by your own admission he was NOT ALLOWED to have the truth or know it if it was in his lap."
Nathan Jr: "This hypocrisy needs to be understood. Well said.
victor went to great lengths to bash academia, yet he beleeeved those credentials to be so very important that he purchased a "degree" so he could pretend to have academic authority and credibility. Why invoke an academic title, if it's meaningless?"
My library has all sorts of the teachers VPW had. I have collected more than the ones that were easily available at the Way Bookstore. I don't filter those things out at all.
*/*/*/*
So glad you asked about the re-writing.
Psalm 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: As silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
First the revelation comes, and it is then spoken, and then later put into written form. This last step can include finding better ways to say it, or include new research, new light on the topic.
It is only in the "divine dictation" model of revelation writing that your objection makes sense. VPW taught in the Thess. Univ of Life that generally the Word did not come by divine dictation.
It's cute how casually you can ascribe hidden meanings into the most straightforward points. You took this verse as if it spoke about pfal or some writings of a man that goes through editing.
This verse was entirely to get across the PURITY of the words of the LORD. How pure is it? Human language lacks the depth to truly convey it. The word of the LORD is 50 pounds of purity in a one-pound box. it's like silver that's been re-smelted seven times to eliminate impurities- THAT'S HOW PURE ARE THE WORDS OF THE LORD.
Taking meaning from the analogy of purifying what's considered a pure metal- and then running with that analogy and applying it to something else, well, that's unsound. If you wonder why you don't get converts here, it's because your processes are unsound and result- as they will- with errors. Since you're unable to notice it, to you it's like they don't exist and others are making them up. But that doesn't change the errors. Label the jar of pickles "soup" or "apple butter" and that doesn't change the contents.
So Crates: "The first flaw in your theory: how would you know you have the truth?
And spare me the you have the Word bull. Catholics have the Word and they claim the have the truth. So do Presbyterians. So do Baptists. So does any one of 2500 Christian religions, all claiming they--and only they--have the one true truth. So how do you know when you have the truth?"
Mike:"You sound like academia here. Sorry, you don't get spared. If God can't verify to you when you got the truth then maybe you got the wrong god. If you got the god of academia, you are NOT ALLOWED to have truth or to know if if it lands in your lap."
I was trying to find this exchange midst all the muck and the mire. Thanks.
Mike's comment makes me think of children screaming at each other: My god can beat up your god!!
56 minutes ago, WordWolf said:
This verse was entirely to get across the PURITY of the words of the LORD. How pure is it? Human language lacks the depth to truly convey it.
I must start with the body and soul man. That is all they want to hear about
Geez. You obviously lack any depth of understanding in what you are actually talking about. There isn't a scientist anywhere that wants to hear anything about spirit becuase it can't be scientifically proven.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
120
259
157
205
Popular Days
Nov 2
154
Oct 30
111
Nov 3
106
Nov 4
104
Top Posters In This Topic
Mike 120 posts
T-Bone 259 posts
OldSkool 157 posts
Nathan_Jr 205 posts
Popular Days
Nov 2 2022
154 posts
Oct 30 2022
111 posts
Nov 3 2022
106 posts
Nov 4 2022
104 posts
Popular Posts
penworks
VPW's statement that the Bible interprets itself is nonsense. The act of interpretation of any text is done by the reader of the text. People interpret what they read. They are the ones who give it me
waysider
And in doing so, he was violating his own "To Whom it is Written" rule.
Charity
What I see in what you wrote Chockfull is that we were meant to have a relationship with the class - you know the one that replaced our relationship with Christ. It was our lord in that it had power,
Posted Images
Rocky
Or any other entity, including (natural or artificial) humans.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
I would think someone so deeply immersed in the bible and the study of free will would have looked into it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Sigh... PLEASE don't feed the troll. Those are NOT questions that Mike could possibly answer in any coherent or concise manner.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
I am not sure.
I have confined my focus to the most simple possible situation, and hope to build from there.
The most simple situation I know of with free will is a natural man, with body and soul only.
I suspect that early Christian and later (around 1200) Thomas Aquinas confused the whole free will issue by focusing on Christian free will, for those with spirit added. That changes a lot; more than I can inventory. So they had spiritual free will in the Middle Ages.
Later, just about 400 years ago, the Enlightenment Philosophers secularized this spiritual free will into a godless, but still mystical form of free will called different names. Two currently popular names are Libertarian Free Will (LibFW) and the other is Contra-Causal Free Will. They are mystical in the sense that they are almost 100% pure opposites of what is known in science as Determinism, Physics Determinism to be precise.
My approach is to de-mystify free will and look for it in Biology as a deterministic mechanism like digestion. I have to re-define "freedom" here but that is ok, because it needs it.
*/*/*/*
My new approach is to look for freedoms that can be "bought" by using acceptable deterministic patterns to overrule unacceptable deterministic patterns.
In other words, instead of always looking at determinism for the prisons it can make, it can also be used to free us from some prisons. Determinism can be our friend; it can be useful in the brain for making better decisions.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Here we are talking about neuroscience and free will in the wrong thread, and meanwhile YOUR thread on free will versus determinism languishes under the shadow of some music director.
Maybe I should get things rolling there?
How big is the largest possible post?
I have 5 or 6 chapters on my free will book already written, and it would be nice if I could post an entire chapter in one post.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
The PFAL baby should have been aborted back then when it was determined the fetus was grossly deformed, inviable and also would have threatened the cognitive skills and mental health of those so impregnated – talking metaphorically of course…
You’d think this concept of mal-conception is inconceivable – but here we are debating over a student’s right to choose...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
M: I see how things degenerate into food fights about me, and that is not what I want.
T: On the contrary, I can tell that’s exactly what you want!
M: I try to post what I honestly think people need and have a right to hear,
T: No, you don’t! You talk AT people and ignore feedback. That’s not communicating - that’s propaganda!
M: and then I get many responses, to which I try to answer a lot of, and the cycle starts, and soon becomes chaos.
T: But you don’t try to ANSWER. You dodge, obfuscate, bloviate and instigate the chaotic cycle.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
You choose the battlefield where you think your context-ignoring inappropriate nonsense will cause the most damage
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Like a sign posted on a cage at the zoo ...or the hospital.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
It is more complicated when spirit is present.
That in itself is good reason to resort to the less complicated, body and soul man.
I don't need to know the exact reasons, and neither do you, to look FIRST at the simple before graduating to the more complex.
*/*/*/*
Now, THAT being said, I might speculate that having spirit means more avenues of learning.
Since my analysis shows free will is a complex learning thing, it is too complicated to consider learning via spirit. Maybe God can boost "will power" via spirit. OK. Now it's your turn to speculate.
PLUS, if I want to make my research marketable to neuroscientists, I must start with the body and soul man. That is all they want to hear about.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Actually, this is one reason I want to post my theory here. I honestly never thought to study free will in angels. Before the Pandemic, I did a lot of free will "surveys" at Star Bucks. It's also a great way to talk to ladies. But I never saw a real angel there, so never studied how they do it or did it. My guess is the Bible says nothing about it, or next to nothing.
That's the way it is with the Bible and free will for people: very skimpy. I was surprised at this in the early 1970s. I could find nothing substantial in the Bible on it. I did get those 3 tips from VPW, though.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Mike: I'm not understanding what you mean here.
Not since victor's regurgitating of Bullinger's four crucified error has someone failed so deeply to understand.
Mike: Instead of silencing me or shuffling me off to a closet, why not look at your own house and see if you are throwing out the PFAL baby with the bathwater.
Never leave a rotting corpse in the bathtub. Throw that waterhead baby out!
Mike: If you were building a mindful model of what went wrong at TWI, it would not collapse at my mere posting.
Mike's posting CONFIRMS what is wrong at TWI and PFAL. The only things collapsing are Mike's logical fallacies and failed propositions under the weight of Mike's logical fallacies and failed propositions.
Edited by Nathan_JrLink to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
M:You folks seem to have a anti-idol being constantly manufactured that is very fragile, and all it takes is one thankful PFAL grad to post a few key ideas about the value of PFAL, and all chaos breaks loose.
T: let me unscramble the puzzle for those playing along in the Grease Spot Café Home Edition: some folks have very fragile idols named wierwille and PFAL, and sometimes it just takes one Grease Spotter making a valid criticism of wierwille or PFAL and “booms-quick” the house of cards belief system in their heads - and presented in a post - falls into chaotic ruin.
M: Instead of silencing me or shuffling me off to a closet, why not look at your own house and see if you are throwing out the PFAL baby with the bathwater.
T: I have yet to see anyone silencing you or shuffling you off to a closet. Perhaps you say this stuff out of frustration for shooting yourself in the foot with a water gun filled with dirty bathwater
M: You once got all caught up and zealous for a movement that turned from mindful to mindless.
T: no charge for me to again unscramble the puzzle for those playing along in the Grease Spot Café Home Edition: This is classic Mike’s reverse-I’m-rubber-you’re-glue-countermeasure – similar to the triple-dog-dare-you that skips the interim double-dog-dare-you protocol…Mike thoughtlessly accuses others of being thoughtless when they have given him every chance to clarify things and explain himself. It's a response to a perceived insult, this maneuver is usually only used by children.
M: So ask yourselves, how immune are you to getting mindlessly caught up in something, today, that turns from mindful to mindless?
T: I’ve had 4 shots of Moderna.
M: If you were building a mindful model of what went wrong at TWI, it would not collapse at my mere posting.
T: oh, we’re back to mental constructs are we? You must enjoy playing 52 card pick-up – cuz your house of cards propaganda - which is in your head and reflected in your posts - collapses under the weight of your own chaos.
Edited by T-Bonetypo-esque
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
your lack of knowledge has never stopped you from posting before
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
perhaps you stalled out at wierwille road and highway PFAL
you should avoid those backcountry roads - might be awhile before help comes along...whatever you do don't accept a ride from the L.E.A.D. truck.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
If you really want to make your "research" marketable to neuroscientists, you'll need to start by getting it peer reviewed and published in a reputable journal.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Mike: It is more complicated when spirit is present
It is?
Mike: That in itself is good reason to resort to the less complicated, body and soul man.
It is?
Mike: I don't need to know the exact reasons, and neither do you, to look FIRST at the simple before graduating to the more complex.
You don't? And neither do I?
Mike: Now, THAT being said, I might speculate that having spirit means more avenues of learning.
You might?
Mike: Since my analysis shows free will is a complex learning thing,
It does?
Mike: it is too complicated to consider learning via spirit.
It is?
Mike: Maybe God can boost "will power" via spirit.
Maybe he can?
Mike: PLUS, if I want to make my research marketable to neuroscientists, I must start with the body and soul man.
Must you?
Mike: That is all they want to hear about.
It is?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
I see free will as being like a muscle.
You do?
It can be out of shape and weak.
It can?
There are all kinds of tricks that we can do to strengthen it, and make it function again.
There are?
I have been picking up tips for my research from links like this, and in groups that specialize in quitting smoking or changing eating habits.
You have?
In addition to being LIKE a muscle, my research is indicating that free will is IDENTICAL to learning; just complicated, self-directed learning.
Is that what your research indicates?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Mike: "My approach is to de-mystify free will and look for it in Biology as a deterministic mechanism like digestion. I have to re-define "freedom" here but that is ok, because it needs it."
I rest my case. Again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
So Crates: "The first flaw in your theory: how would you know you have the truth?
And spare me the you have the Word bull. Catholics have the Word and they claim the have the truth. So do Presbyterians. So do Baptists. So does any one of 2500 Christian religions, all claiming they--and only they--have the one true truth. So how do you know when you have the truth?"
Mike:"You sound like academia here. Sorry, you don't get spared. If God can't verify to you when you got the truth then maybe you got the wrong god. If you got the god of academia, you are NOT ALLOWED to have truth or to know if if it lands in your lap."
Once again, Mike's demonstrating a lack of substance. It happens whenever there's a direct question, and this particular question strikes at the heart of Mike's entire belief system- Mike, how would you know you have the truth?
Mike FLED the question and changed the subject. Mike's system has an answer that is FAR too weak to withstand even CASUAL scrutiny, so he does the "dodge, distract, evade, but never admit an error is an error" system he himself posted that he uses.
But, the non-answer has answered quite a bit by what it fled.]
So Crates: "Sorry YOU don't get spared. How do you know you don't THINK God is verifying the truth to you.
Plenty of people have claimed God verified the truth and it was proven their claim was them lying to themselves.
Besides, you've never heard of false prophets?"
So Crates:"Do you read what you write? Or do you fade in and out?
Saint Vic was obsessed with academia. After all, he implied he went to Princeton university and insisted everyone call him doctor. I doubt he had a TARIS hidden somewhere.
So, considering his obsession with academia, by your own admission he was NOT ALLOWED to have the truth or know it if it was in his lap."
Nathan Jr: "This hypocrisy needs to be understood. Well said.
victor went to great lengths to bash academia, yet he beleeeved those credentials to be so very important that he purchased a "degree" so he could pretend to have academic authority and credibility. Why invoke an academic title, if it's meaningless?"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
It's cute how casually you can ascribe hidden meanings into the most straightforward points. You took this verse as if it spoke about pfal or some writings of a man that goes through editing.
This verse was entirely to get across the PURITY of the words of the LORD. How pure is it? Human language lacks the depth to truly convey it. The word of the LORD is 50 pounds of purity in a one-pound box. it's like silver that's been re-smelted seven times to eliminate impurities- THAT'S HOW PURE ARE THE WORDS OF THE LORD.
Taking meaning from the analogy of purifying what's considered a pure metal- and then running with that analogy and applying it to something else, well, that's unsound. If you wonder why you don't get converts here, it's because your processes are unsound and result- as they will- with errors. Since you're unable to notice it, to you it's like they don't exist and others are making them up. But that doesn't change the errors. Label the jar of pickles "soup" or "apple butter" and that doesn't change the contents.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
I was trying to find this exchange midst all the muck and the mire. Thanks.
Mike's comment makes me think of children screaming at each other: My god can beat up your god!!
This is something to contemplate.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
What makes ANY of you think Mike is actually reachable? He's been deflecting the same arguments for 20 years.
There's never any indication of genuine rational discourse. NEVER.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Geez. You obviously lack any depth of understanding in what you are actually talking about. There isn't a scientist anywhere that wants to hear anything about spirit becuase it can't be scientifically proven.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.