34. Encourages an us-versus-them mindset - great for fortifying groupthink and isolation. “I have no friends when it comes to the Word.”
A. wierwille’s animosity toward Christians outside of TWI was camouflaged by his self-righteous stand on “rightly-dividing the Word”.
wierwille’s claptrap on handling the Greek word for “rightly dividing” – I will try to handle in another post – but for now I’ll just say he laid it out as more of an intellectual pursuit rather than paying attention to any ethical demands.
In the green book The New Dynamic Church, in chapter 13 Why Division, on page 171 wierwille explains
The leaders of the spiritual movements in the Church have always been ridiculed and maligned. The confusing element in the entire situation is that it is the religious people, those who are deeply sincere, who cause the division.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
Notice how wierwille paints with broad brush strokes…he makes vague generalizations that could encompass just about anyone, and he also uses stereotyping – an oversimplified and often biased idea of the typical characteristics of a certain group of people. A person can plug in any one they want to for “leaders of the spiritual movements in the Church” as well as pick any religious peoplethey’d like to blame for causing the division.
On page 172 wierwille concludes this chapter with the following remarks:
May God deliver us as the Church from being contentious and difficult, from maligning our brethren, from bickering and quarrelsomeness, from dividing the Body of Christ by our lack of enlightenment. There is too much division outside the Church; our solidarity is imperative to give us strength to move forward in spite of the opposition. May the Father in heaven, for the sake of the only-begotten Son, bless us with such an abundance that we may cease to be part of the problem and become part of the answer. May we as members of Christ’s Body become so filled with love that we may be teachable and have our hearts opened to His Holy Word. And may we receive of Him and carry the blessing to all we meet, that they may see us and know we are His.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
What did wierwille mean by our lack of enlightenment? He is obviously addressing Christians here. Is he talking about a lack of a special type of knowledge? Gnosticism?
After being involved with The Way International for 12 years I now see the hypocrisy of wierwille’s words. I’ve been in open meetings when wierwille would get on one of his anti-Trinitarian rants – and he’d say such hateful stuff along the lines of in order to really believe in the Trinity you’ve got to be possessed by a devil spirit…a lot of the leaders in big denominations, including the Roman Catholic Church are born again of the seed of the serpent. Now is not the time or place to get into analyzing the Trinitarian doctrine – but let’s leave it at this – the Trinity is not as big a deal in Trinitarian groups as it is in wierwille’s polarizing rants.
Always within “the household of faith” – wierwille used manipulative threats to keep us from breaking ranks – I still vividly remember his teaching from John 13to us the way corps – it’s when Judas left Jesus and the disciples to carry out his betrayal and in verse 30 it reads in NIV As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night. wierwille dialed the amp up to 11 with the symbolism of Judas leaving the fold and it was night – then presented us with a dire scenario – if we as way corps leave God’s ministry of the rightly-divided Word the only alternative is oblivion. He'd ask Where else are you going to go? implying there's nothing else out there like his great ministry of the rightly-divided word.
Penworks started a thread - Evidence: Letters VPW wrote to the Way CorpsI think anyone who has a strong sense of disillusionment from the failure of wierwille / TWI to fulfill the declared goalsand the perception of inconsistencies between the actions of certain TWI-leaders and the ideals they supposedly represent should check out that thread.
I could go on about the Mark and Avoid process too but enough on this stuff for now.
Oh yes one of my favorite collaterals Why Division?
Before we get to the payload let’s highlight what is there NOT causing the division.
1. VPs sex life
2. Drambuie Kools and exposing yourself
3. screaming at people and kicking them out of your programs and maligning them to others.
4. Contentious book titles
5. Calling all the heads of denominations seed of the serpent.
6. Strong arming hippie movements taking them over by force with your people
Now let’s discuss from the PFAL collaterals what causes division.
Us not being more teachable. That’s it.
Unfortunately I have two eyes and a brain. I think the division is more because of the first 6 things not because we are not more teachable.
It’s the same reason there still is division with the super nice guys in charge now. The house was built on the sinking sand of a flim flam artists disturbed mind.
Then, after that teaching, it is a lot of working it in Receive, Retain, Release, and walking in love.
This was a perceptual flaw that was inflicted on you. It was inflicted on me, too, but I actually blew it off the first time I heard it, since I knew it was wrong.
"You can't go beyond what you've been taught."- vpw
False. "You can't go beyond what you KNEW- but you can learn more and THEN go beyond what you KNEW." - WordWolf
What's the difference? vpw's version inflicts the "need" for a teacher on someone in order to learn ANYTHING. vpw was fond of inventing problems- and then offering the solutions for them- for a price. it was a lucrative, if unprincipled, business for him.
So, if you begin with
"You can't go beyond what you've been taught", then the next thing is needing to find a teacher, and only going as far as they can teach you. If you truly seek "mastery" of something, you have to completely discard that postulate and go FAR beyond what anyone can teach you. That's what "masters" of a thing do. Bruce Lee developed Jeet Kun Do in private, having gone far beyond what others had taught him. The Gracie family took Jiu Jitsu- a striking style- and added large amounts of grappling, holding, throws, and ground-fighting to it. The result was "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu"- which is a lot more dangerous than the conventional kind. (Check the octagon if there's any doubt.)
Those who DECIDE that they CAN'T go beyond what they've been taught will discover they are correct, and those who decide that they CAN go beyond what they've been taught will discover that THEY are correct as well.
I want to know the author's intended meaning, like in reading a Physics text by Einstein explaining E=mc2. I don't want my own interpretation of what he writes. I want to hammer my interpretations of each of Einstein's sentences and equations to exactly match his, as much as possible.
There are two major attitudes a reader can take while reading anything:
(1) I want to get the author's exactly intended meanings, in spite of how they make me feel, and
(2) I want to embrace whatever feeling I get from reading this piece.
[False Dilemma.
"There are 2 types of people- those who divide people into 2 types, and those who don't."
(BTW, that's another false dilemma even while it's a joke.)
False Dilemmas are a lot like the postulate "You can't go beyond what you've been taught." They limit discussion and they limit THINKING into narrow channels, when other answers may work better.
(Oh, and for those who are just skimming me for finding cut-and-paste to use against me later.... Just because only two options are offered is NOT a guarantee something is a False Dilemma. Sometimes there's only two possibilities, and often there are a lot more. One actually has to make the effort to determine which they are dealing with. Since that's work, some people will just guess. In the case of those who fence themselves in with a postulate (like "I can't go beyond what I've been taught") will find they don't really have an option without stepping outside their postulate.) ]
OFF TOPIC, but I am interested anyway. I have been working on this part of PFAL, of God needing spirit to communicate. Is there a thread on it here?
We never really made a thread on the subject, because it was so easily proven wrong.
First of all, it wasn't even consistent.
"God is Spirit- and God can only give that which He is, which is Spirit." -vpw, pfal.
"God gave manna. God is not manna." -Raf, GSC.
"God is Spirit- and God can only communicate with that which He is, which is Spirit."-vpw, pfal.
Several people pointed out the obvious problems with that, as it doesn't even work on paper- especially when what vpw called "The Great Principle" comes into play.
"God is Spirit, and God communicates with his spirit in you- which is now your spirit, and your spirit teaches your mind. Then it becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act."
So, now God's Spirit IS UNABLE to communicate with my mind directly, because God is Spirit, and Spirit cannot communicate with mind directly since mind is not spirit. So, God's Spirit communicates directly to my spirit.
The next step is that my spirit teaches my mind. To do that, it MUST FIRST COMMUNICATE with my mind. So, my spirit can do what God Almighty's Spirit is UNABLE TO DO.
Seriously, if you spend time trying to save "the Great Principle" with your usual method of "that's the version for public consumption, but even the Corps and the inner cadre never REALLY heard the secret, occult meaning behind that- of which the version in pfal is an oversimplified, understated version",
you're not going to get any converts to it, and you're just going to sink deeper into the rabbit hole.
But, if you really want to discuss it, sure, start a new thread in Doctrinal. (That's when you make a new thread yourself specifically to discuss something, that's not when you take a different, existing thread with a different subject and start posting your new subject on it.)
Yes but I was calling into question your postulate that God in His foreknowledge would only give big jobs to those that can handle it.
I guess the donkey was a faithful donkey lol. But at any rate an animal speaking completely bypasses your little .02 analysis fyi.
According to vpw in pfal,
God is Spirit, and can only communicate with that which He is-which is Spirit. (That's the 2nd of the 2 mutually-exclusive postulates he gave. the less-limiting one.)
vpw's standard explanation for revelation to people not born again and not prophets was that God Almighty would put spirit upon them conditionally in that instance only, and remove it shortly thereafter. (That's how he explained "the writing on the wall." BTW, FF Bruce explained it better, and that explanation doesn't require discussing revelation.)
So, to follow vpw's rules for spirit strictly,
What happened here was that God Almighty, since he was unable to communicate directly with the mind of the donkey, put some spirit conditionally upon the donkey. Since that was not sufficient to make the donkey able to speak and make sense, God also had to perform a miracle and temporarily increase the donkey's wit and make him able to utter intelligible speech. Once He had done that, He could communicate with His Spirit to the donkey's temporary spirit, which became manifested in the senses realm when the donkey spoke.
To discard vpw's explanation,
God Almighty performed a miracle that raised the donkey's wit, and allowed him intelligible speech. Nothing further was needed. That was pretty miraculous as it was.
God is Spirit, and can only communicate with that which He is-which is Spirit.
I think the simple answer to this is like in the class where we were taught "No man can REALLY say Jesus is Lord but by holy spirit."
The expanded version is:
God is Spirit, and can only REALLY communicate with that which He is-which is Spirit
God can communicate in less efficient ways, like with phenomena, but it is crude and limited. It's far from a face-to-face conversation.
Think of God being limited in how well He can communicate with natural men, the same way we are limited in how well we can communicate with our pets.... compared with our communication with people.
I think the simple answer to this is like in the class where we were taught "No man can REALLY say Jesus is Lord but by holy spirit."
The expanded version is:
God is Spirit, and can only REALLY communicate with that which He is-which is Spirit
God can communicate in less efficient ways, like with phenomena, but it is crude and limited. It's far from a face-to-face conversation.
Think of God being limited in how well He can communicate with natural men, the same way we are limited in how well we can communicate with our pets.... compared with our communication with people.
Nah bruh....this is talking about speaking in tongues according to st vic. Ive never seen you grasp straws to the point of grabbing air. Nothing you say here supports that bunk claim that God who is spirit can only talk to what he is spirit-spirit....its a BS statement, but I see you plan to sound more uncredible than usual when trying to make a point.
So....how does holy spirit within a believer communicate with flesh and blood....I mean God's spirit cant do it....that must mean that our spirit is more capable than the giver? You cant make this make sense.
Quote
Think of God being limited in how well He can communicate with natural men, the same way we are limited in how well we can communicate with our pets.... compared with our communication with people.
This is about as a ridicoulous explanation as trinitarians who use water as an explanation for how it all works. You know...water evaporates....and forms as water again in the same way that God took a body and redeemed mankind and went back to heaven again.
Those who DECIDE that they CAN'T go beyond what they've been taught will discover they are correct, and those who decide that they CAN go beyond what they've been taught will discover that THEY are correct as well.
Thought this bore repeating.
Hey! And doesn't just apply to human beings, either. Even animals and birds, domestic and wild, can go way beyond what they have been taught. Only human beings are "smart" enough to willingly allow others to limit themselves.
Hey! And doesn't just apply to human beings, either. Even animals and birds, domestic and wild, can go way beyond what they have been taught. Only human beings are "smart" enough to willingly allow others to limit themselves.
There have been legions of human explorers, blazing their own paths where no one had gone before them. Decades ago, I found the late Gail Sheehy's book, Pathfinders particularly intriguing. Pathfinders tells stories of lots of people who determined not to be limited by absence of a guru/teacher. It was first published 40 years ago today. Nov 1, 1982.
No book in the last decade has changed more lives than Gail Sheehy's groundbreaking Passages. Now, going beyond Passages in purpose and scope, Gail Sheehy's landmark best-seller explains why some of us overcome life's crises while others do not. Through interviews with hundreds of people of all ages and backgrounds, she has found the true pathfinders�men and women who have discovered uncommon solutions to the predictable crises and unexpected accidents of adult life. In vivid, unforgettable portraits, Gail Sheehy tells their life stories and analyzes the process by which they accumulated confidence, control and courage in their lives. Pathfinders is that rare book which sets you on your own unique path to well-being.
Pretty sure I read it in the late 1980s or early 1990s.
Those who DECIDE that they CAN'T go beyond what they've been taught will discover they are correct, and those who decide that they CAN go beyond what they've been taught will discover that THEY are correct as well.
7 hours ago, WordWolf said:The Gracie family took Jiu Jitsu- a striking style- and added large amounts of grappling, holding, throws, and ground-fighting to it. The result was "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu"- which is a lot more dangerous than the conventional kind. (Check the octagon if there's any doubt.)
Those who DECIDE that they CAN'T go beyond what they've been taught will discover they are correct, and those who decide that they CAN go beyond what they've been taught will discover that THEY are correct as well.
So to expand long before LIV Golf and the Saudis sportswashing their regime Renzo Gracie met a shiek who fell in love with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu who dedicated a portion of the public fund to create the ADCC - Abu Dhabi Combat Club which holds a world championship in submission grappling every 2 years. Like the Olympics the competition pushed athletes to go beyond previous marks and achieve greater heights every competition.
People teaching you that you cannot go beyond what you taught are imposing their own special dog collar of bondage. You decide whether or not wearing it is a good look on you.
Nah bruh....this is talking about speaking in tongues according to st vic. Ive never seen you grasp straws to the point of grabbing air. Nothing you say here supports that bunk claim that God who is spirit can only talk to what he is spirit-spirit....its a BS statement, but I see you plan to sound more uncredible than usual when trying to make a point.
So....how does holy spirit within a believer communicate with flesh and blood....I mean God's spirit cant do it....that must mean that our spirit is more capable than the giver? You cant make this make sense.
This is about as a ridicoulous explanation as trinitarians who use water as an explanation for how it all works. You know...water evaporates....and forms as water again in the same way that God took a body and redeemed mankind and went back to heaven again.
You are trying to make spiritual mechanics work like physical mechanics.
The fact that spirit is needed on our side is simply scriptural, and is like a Postulate that must be accepted, and then you look for understanding elsewhere.
By inserting the word "REALLY" into the process, I think it makes WORKABLE sense.
I have been pondering this idea for over 35 years, and I think you gave it less than 35 seconds, before your knee-jerk, "it looks too much like vpw for me to stomach," clouds your understanding. Give it some time, please.
WHY would VPW say such a thing in the class that "God cannot...."? That is an attention getter. It CANNOT be true to fact and must be a figure of speech that VPW was using there.
In my cat&dog analogy, we can see a similar situation.
Our pets are missing something that they ALMOST have, especially dogs. They have likes and dislikes and they try to communicate with us, but only get through rough, short ideas. Similarly with us getting complex information down to their level.
It is not a lack on our part that prevents us from communicating RICHLY with animals.
It is not a lack on God's part that prevents Him from communicating RICHLY with spiritless humans.
In essence that is what I heard in the late 1970s while listening to a tape from a Sunday teaching by VPW. As I remember, VPW said that he agreed with the Roman Catholic Church regarding the religious belief that the Pope was the Vicar of Christ. In practical application, while VPW was the leader of TWI, VPW also saw himself as the earthly representative of Christ and as "the teacher" instead of "a teacher", as I remember from the Power for Abundant Living class. However, at least most of and perhaps all of his books don't have that hierarchical and errant teaching.
That is very interesting. Do you think it ever went a step further and VPW forgave sins if/when someone confessed their sins to him? Like a priest would? I do find the confession process, an RC sacrament, to be very comforting. I would compare it (almost) to someone delivering an edifying word of prophesy for you... something similar like we heard in TWI ... edification, exhortation and comfort experience.
You are trying to make spiritual mechanics work like physical mechanics.
So naturally, being an expert in "spiritual mechanics" you're going to tell us how it works. How do you know how it works?
Do you understand God designed the physical world to help us understand the spiritual world? God says we're a family, so to help us understand that he created families. God says he is a father, to help us understand that he created fathers.
The other posters just explained something to you in that "logically logic" that Saint Vic claimed he used in PLAF. Then you did the exact opposite of your above complaint and refused to give it 35 seconds before you knee-jerked "this is too little PLAF" and let it cloud your understanding. Give it some time.
This is one thing that puts me off. For Saint Vic, anything was acceptable, just claim it was "spiritual." Don't let the sun go down on your anger, but "spiritual" anger is okay. Want to sin? Just stay right in your spirit and then sin all you want. Common sense tells us one thing, but, guess what, the spiritual world doesn't follow common sense.
There have been legions of human explorers, blazing their own paths where no one had gone before them. Decades ago, I found the late Gail Sheehy's book, Pathfinders particularly intriguing. Pathfinders tells stories of lots of people who determined not to be limited by absence of a guru/teacher. It was first published 40 years ago today. Nov 1, 1982.
No book in the last decade has changed more lives than Gail Sheehy's groundbreaking Passages. Now, going beyond Passages in purpose and scope, Gail Sheehy's landmark best-seller explains why some of us overcome life's crises while others do not. Through interviews with hundreds of people of all ages and backgrounds, she has found the true pathfinders�men and women who have discovered uncommon solutions to the predictable crises and unexpected accidents of adult life. In vivid, unforgettable portraits, Gail Sheehy tells their life stories and analyzes the process by which they accumulated confidence, control and courage in their lives. Pathfinders is that rare book which sets you on your own unique path to well-being.
Pretty sure I read it in the late 1980s or early 1990s.
Great book, Rocky!
I’ll have to reread that sometime.
I vaguely remember something in the book about the difference between a pathfinder versus a helicopter – and I may have garbled up some of this – or processed it (“made it my own” )… or “morphed it” the way I like apply it… …so help me out if I’m incorrect on stuff from the book – feel free to jump in…
Anyway…the pathfinder – or perhaps a tracker in problem-solving mode - is a painstaking approach on the ground – up-close to go over details with a fine-tooth comb; look at everything, break it down to essential parts, CSI-crime-scene style.
The helicopter goes for the overview – takes chances – may have lucky guesses where to look – or may be familiar with the topography and knows the likely places to look, maybe more familiar with the culprit’s modus operandi.
I remember reading this after I left TWI – and liked it more for inspiration in training technicians how to troubleshoot security systems. It takes some wisdom and experience to figure out which approach is the most appropriate on a service call – and sometimes one may switch modes if a clue leads you to do so.
Reflecting on my some 36-year journey since I left TWI – I think I used both approaches – and still do – to unravel the doctrinal issues and the intellectual and emotional baggage:
The pathfinder method - some of my troubleshooting is painstakingly slow –– checking out every trail - going over every detail of PFAL – like posters are doing on this thread. Getting into hermeneutics the way it’s supposed to be done. Exposing the logical fallacies, wierwille’s faulty redefining of biblical languages, etc.
Helicopter method – some of my favorite hobbies are reading about systematic theology, philosophy of religion and psychology. I kinda get the lay of the land – so in overview mode, I see connections - and how one thing may correlate with another...For example, how Gnosticism and fascination for supposedly special knowledge is sewn into the fabricate of PFAL - and that's one of the hooks of a cult-leader - appealing to a person's quest for answers.
You are trying to make spiritual mechanics work like physical mechanics.
What in the actual eff does spiritual mechanics work like physical mechanics even mean? Please explain to me how spiritual mechanics work.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
The fact that spirit is needed on our side is simply scriptural, and is like a Postulate that must be accepted, and then you look for understanding elsewhere.
I think one of the basic problems with wierwille's so called theology is he just never seemed to understand what holy spirit was really for. It wasn't only for communication and it's presence or abscence in a person has nothing to do with God's ability to communicate. It is a downpayment, it is a new nature that gives us power over the sin nature so we don't have to obey the sin nature, it's a new creation born within us that one day will lead to our full bodily redemption, holy spirit convicts of sin and cleanses us from unrighteousness, etc. God has always communicated with his creation in a multitude of ways. Heck the very nature of the creation declares God's handiwork, there's astronomy, written scripture, burning bushes, talking donkeys, etc. The very narrowminded idea that spirit is needed on ourside and the preposterous idea that God CAN ONLY COMMUNICATE WITH SPIRIT is just ridicoulous. It doesn't fit with reality, scripture, history, astronomy, etc. in the least. Why must I accept this garbage? Because some guy put it in a book in an authoratative manner and demanded my agreement? Those days are long gone.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
By inserting the word "REALLY" into the process, I think it makes WORKABLE sense.
Please eloborate.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
I have been pondering this idea for over 35 years, and I think you gave it less than 35 seconds, before your knee-jerk, "it looks too much like vpw for me to stomach," clouds your understanding. Give it some time, please.
Ahh....were back to the assumed moral superiority based on how much time you've supposedly been doing something, with it's corresponding condescending attitude. You are just so much wiser than little ole' inexperienced me. Endless geanology type stuff. I've been reading and studying all things wierwille since 96 and thats plenty of time. I will give vpw's errors not another second in my life. If you continue to do so then enjoy your time in the ditch cause thats where people wind up who follow blind men. A wise man would spend about 35 seconds reading wierwilles baloney and put it down recognizing that it's riddled with error. Sadly I wasn't very wise when I was young but wierwille's cult targets the young and still does to this day.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
WHY would VPW say such a thing in the class that "God cannot...."? That is an attention getter. It CANNOT be true to fact and must be a figure of speech that VPW was using there.
Lemme get this straight. If wierwille says "God cannot" in a class then I should pay attention? You know what...I agree. It is an attention getter that he had no earthly idea what he's talking about. The only thing I know for sure that God cannot do is be tempted with evil, lie, or change. I refuse to be so arrogant to think that as a created being I can say with any authority what God cannot do besides what he puts in scripture, which I quoted - maybe my list isn't exhaustive but it doesn't need to be to refute your points.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
in my cat&dog analogy, we can see a similar situation.
Our pets are missing something that they ALMOST have, especially dogs. They have likes and dislikes and they try to communicate with us, but only get through rough, short ideas. Similarly with us getting complex information down to their level.
Horrible analogy. Grasping straws....have to make up an analogy to try and make it fit...so what are we...God's little pets? Am I a spiritual doggie? Last time I checked we are sons of God purchased with the greatest price ever paid: the shedding of Jesus Christ's innocent blood. Comparing us to animals is just bad taste and unscriptural.
1 hour ago, Mike said:
It is not a lack on our part that prevents us from communicating RICHLY with animals.
It is not a lack on God's part that prevents Him from communicating RICHLY with spiritless humans.
So, please give the idea a little time to simmer.
I've simmered enough. I've worked vics stuff for years and probably with more effectiveness that what you have been able to do because I had access and utilized heavily the camp Gunnison library and HQ library. I've listened to most all of the old corps tapes, university of life tapes, on down the line. I had access to every printed book and every syllabus worth clasping my hands on in those two libraries. I really did live maximum learning in minimum time to the fullest. I've been all over the way international from soup to nuts, from being joe believer to being an arrogant way corps cabinet guy. Sorry - being dismissive of my times and experiences in the way simply do not hold any water because I have been exposed to so much more than you.....see how that works? I can assume a popmpous, fake level of superiority as well. But I won't. I simply disagree with your postulate and many things vpw said and the way international still teaches.
Hey! And doesn't just apply to human beings, either. Even animals and birds, domestic and wild, can go way beyond what they have been taught. Only human beings are "smart" enough to willingly allow others to limit themselves.
10 hours ago, WordWolf said:
Those who DECIDE that they CAN'T go beyond what they've been taught will discover they are correct, and those who decide that they CAN go beyond what they've been taught will discover that THEY are correct as well.
You are trying to make spiritual mechanics work like physical mechanics. The fact that spirit is needed on our side is simply scriptural, and is like a Postulate that must be accepted, and then you look for understanding elsewhere.
That is NOT a fact of Scripture but an assumption from a certain interpretation on your part.
And other matters for debate are what is spirit? What does death mean in Genesis?
What is the image and likeness of God in Genesis?
If humankind lost the image and likeness of God in Genesis – then why do passages written after the fall suggest humankind still retains that image?
However - I’m assuming the image is tarnished from the fall.
I started a thread in doctrinal and all are invited to ponder and give input here > Human nature and the fall
God can communicate in less efficient ways, like with phenomena, but it is crude and limited. It's far from a face-to-face conversation.
Think of God being limited in how well He can communicate with natural men, the same way we are limited in how well we can communicate with our pets.... compared with our communication with people.
Except on that bright, sunshiny day when he spoke audibly to ol' victor. He spoke so that victor could hear him with crystal clarity through vic's old man, natural, five senses ears. Via physical mechanisms by the laws of physical mechanics. Out loud. Audibly. "Just like I'm speaking to you now."
Except on that bright, sunshiny day when he spoke audibly to ol' victor. He spoke so that victor could hear him with crystal clarity through vic's old man, natural, five senses ears. Via physical mechanisms by the laws of physical mechanics. Out loud. Audibly. "Just like I'm speaking to you now."
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penworks
VPW's statement that the Bible interprets itself is nonsense. The act of interpretation of any text is done by the reader of the text. People interpret what they read. They are the ones who give it me
waysider
And in doing so, he was violating his own "To Whom it is Written" rule.
Charity
What I see in what you wrote Chockfull is that we were meant to have a relationship with the class - you know the one that replaced our relationship with Christ. It was our lord in that it had power,
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chockfull
Oh yes one of my favorite collaterals Why Division?
Before we get to the payload let’s highlight what is there NOT causing the division.
1. VPs sex life
2. Drambuie Kools and exposing yourself
3. screaming at people and kicking them out of your programs and maligning them to others.
4. Contentious book titles
5. Calling all the heads of denominations seed of the serpent.
6. Strong arming hippie movements taking them over by force with your people
Now let’s discuss from the PFAL collaterals what causes division.
Us not being more teachable. That’s it.
Unfortunately I have two eyes and a brain. I think the division is more because of the first 6 things not because we are not more teachable.
It’s the same reason there still is division with the super nice guys in charge now. The house was built on the sinking sand of a flim flam artists disturbed mind.
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WordWolf
This was a perceptual flaw that was inflicted on you. It was inflicted on me, too, but I actually blew it off the first time I heard it, since I knew it was wrong.
"You can't go beyond what you've been taught."- vpw
False. "You can't go beyond what you KNEW- but you can learn more and THEN go beyond what you KNEW." - WordWolf
What's the difference? vpw's version inflicts the "need" for a teacher on someone in order to learn ANYTHING. vpw was fond of inventing problems- and then offering the solutions for them- for a price. it was a lucrative, if unprincipled, business for him.
So, if you begin with
"You can't go beyond what you've been taught", then the next thing is needing to find a teacher, and only going as far as they can teach you. If you truly seek "mastery" of something, you have to completely discard that postulate and go FAR beyond what anyone can teach you. That's what "masters" of a thing do. Bruce Lee developed Jeet Kun Do in private, having gone far beyond what others had taught him. The Gracie family took Jiu Jitsu- a striking style- and added large amounts of grappling, holding, throws, and ground-fighting to it. The result was "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu"- which is a lot more dangerous than the conventional kind. (Check the octagon if there's any doubt.)
Those who DECIDE that they CAN'T go beyond what they've been taught will discover they are correct, and those who decide that they CAN go beyond what they've been taught will discover that THEY are correct as well.
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WordWolf
[False Dilemma.
"There are 2 types of people- those who divide people into 2 types, and those who don't."
(BTW, that's another false dilemma even while it's a joke.)
False Dilemmas are a lot like the postulate "You can't go beyond what you've been taught." They limit discussion and they limit THINKING into narrow channels, when other answers may work better.
(Oh, and for those who are just skimming me for finding cut-and-paste to use against me later.... Just because only two options are offered is NOT a guarantee something is a False Dilemma. Sometimes there's only two possibilities, and often there are a lot more. One actually has to make the effort to determine which they are dealing with. Since that's work, some people will just guess. In the case of those who fence themselves in with a postulate (like "I can't go beyond what I've been taught") will find they don't really have an option without stepping outside their postulate.) ]
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WordWolf
We never really made a thread on the subject, because it was so easily proven wrong.
First of all, it wasn't even consistent.
"God is Spirit- and God can only give that which He is, which is Spirit." -vpw, pfal.
"God gave manna. God is not manna." -Raf, GSC.
"God is Spirit- and God can only communicate with that which He is, which is Spirit."-vpw, pfal.
Several people pointed out the obvious problems with that, as it doesn't even work on paper- especially when what vpw called "The Great Principle" comes into play.
"God is Spirit, and God communicates with his spirit in you- which is now your spirit, and your spirit teaches your mind. Then it becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act."
So, now God's Spirit IS UNABLE to communicate with my mind directly, because God is Spirit, and Spirit cannot communicate with mind directly since mind is not spirit. So, God's Spirit communicates directly to my spirit.
The next step is that my spirit teaches my mind. To do that, it MUST FIRST COMMUNICATE with my mind. So, my spirit can do what God Almighty's Spirit is UNABLE TO DO.
Seriously, if you spend time trying to save "the Great Principle" with your usual method of "that's the version for public consumption, but even the Corps and the inner cadre never REALLY heard the secret, occult meaning behind that- of which the version in pfal is an oversimplified, understated version",
you're not going to get any converts to it, and you're just going to sink deeper into the rabbit hole.
But, if you really want to discuss it, sure, start a new thread in Doctrinal. (That's when you make a new thread yourself specifically to discuss something, that's not when you take a different, existing thread with a different subject and start posting your new subject on it.)
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WordWolf
According to vpw in pfal,
God is Spirit, and can only communicate with that which He is-which is Spirit. (That's the 2nd of the 2 mutually-exclusive postulates he gave. the less-limiting one.)
vpw's standard explanation for revelation to people not born again and not prophets was that God Almighty would put spirit upon them conditionally in that instance only, and remove it shortly thereafter. (That's how he explained "the writing on the wall." BTW, FF Bruce explained it better, and that explanation doesn't require discussing revelation.)
So, to follow vpw's rules for spirit strictly,
What happened here was that God Almighty, since he was unable to communicate directly with the mind of the donkey, put some spirit conditionally upon the donkey. Since that was not sufficient to make the donkey able to speak and make sense, God also had to perform a miracle and temporarily increase the donkey's wit and make him able to utter intelligible speech. Once He had done that, He could communicate with His Spirit to the donkey's temporary spirit, which became manifested in the senses realm when the donkey spoke.
To discard vpw's explanation,
God Almighty performed a miracle that raised the donkey's wit, and allowed him intelligible speech. Nothing further was needed. That was pretty miraculous as it was.
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Mike
Those are the two most pertinent to this topic.
Seeking the author's intent, versus not seeking it.
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Mike
You missed my answer to Nathan_Jr
Those are the two most pertinent to this topic:
Seeking the author's intent, versus not seeking it.
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Mike
I think the simple answer to this is like in the class where we were taught "No man can REALLY say Jesus is Lord but by holy spirit."
The expanded version is:
God is Spirit, and can only REALLY communicate with that which He is-which is Spirit
God can communicate in less efficient ways, like with phenomena, but it is crude and limited. It's far from a face-to-face conversation.
Think of God being limited in how well He can communicate with natural men, the same way we are limited in how well we can communicate with our pets.... compared with our communication with people.
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OldSkool
Nah bruh....this is talking about speaking in tongues according to st vic. Ive never seen you grasp straws to the point of grabbing air. Nothing you say here supports that bunk claim that God who is spirit can only talk to what he is spirit-spirit....its a BS statement, but I see you plan to sound more uncredible than usual when trying to make a point.
So....how does holy spirit within a believer communicate with flesh and blood....I mean God's spirit cant do it....that must mean that our spirit is more capable than the giver? You cant make this make sense.
This is about as a ridicoulous explanation as trinitarians who use water as an explanation for how it all works. You know...water evaporates....and forms as water again in the same way that God took a body and redeemed mankind and went back to heaven again.
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Twinky
Thought this bore repeating.
Hey! And doesn't just apply to human beings, either. Even animals and birds, domestic and wild, can go way beyond what they have been taught. Only human beings are "smart" enough to willingly allow others to limit themselves.
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Rocky
There have been legions of human explorers, blazing their own paths where no one had gone before them. Decades ago, I found the late Gail Sheehy's book, Pathfinders particularly intriguing. Pathfinders tells stories of lots of people who determined not to be limited by absence of a guru/teacher. It was first published 40 years ago today. Nov 1, 1982.
No book in the last decade has changed more lives than Gail Sheehy's groundbreaking Passages. Now, going beyond Passages in purpose and scope, Gail Sheehy's landmark best-seller explains why some of us overcome life's crises while others do not. Through interviews with hundreds of people of all ages and backgrounds, she has found the true pathfinders�men and women who have discovered uncommon solutions to the predictable crises and unexpected accidents of adult life. In vivid, unforgettable portraits, Gail Sheehy tells their life stories and analyzes the process by which they accumulated confidence, control and courage in their lives. Pathfinders is that rare book which sets you on your own unique path to well-being.
Pretty sure I read it in the late 1980s or early 1990s.
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Nathan_Jr
TRUTH.
This is so good. Wow. Thanks, WW. Well said.
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chockfull
So to expand long before LIV Golf and the Saudis sportswashing their regime Renzo Gracie met a shiek who fell in love with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu who dedicated a portion of the public fund to create the ADCC - Abu Dhabi Combat Club which holds a world championship in submission grappling every 2 years. Like the Olympics the competition pushed athletes to go beyond previous marks and achieve greater heights every competition.
People teaching you that you cannot go beyond what you taught are imposing their own special dog collar of bondage. You decide whether or not wearing it is a good look on you.
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Mike
You are trying to make spiritual mechanics work like physical mechanics.
The fact that spirit is needed on our side is simply scriptural, and is like a Postulate that must be accepted, and then you look for understanding elsewhere.
By inserting the word "REALLY" into the process, I think it makes WORKABLE sense.
I have been pondering this idea for over 35 years, and I think you gave it less than 35 seconds, before your knee-jerk, "it looks too much like vpw for me to stomach," clouds your understanding. Give it some time, please.
WHY would VPW say such a thing in the class that "God cannot...."? That is an attention getter. It CANNOT be true to fact and must be a figure of speech that VPW was using there.
In my cat&dog analogy, we can see a similar situation.
Our pets are missing something that they ALMOST have, especially dogs. They have likes and dislikes and they try to communicate with us, but only get through rough, short ideas. Similarly with us getting complex information down to their level.
It is not a lack on our part that prevents us from communicating RICHLY with animals.
It is not a lack on God's part that prevents Him from communicating RICHLY with spiritless humans.
So, please give the idea a little time to simmer.
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oldiesman
That is very interesting. Do you think it ever went a step further and VPW forgave sins if/when someone confessed their sins to him? Like a priest would? I do find the confession process, an RC sacrament, to be very comforting. I would compare it (almost) to someone delivering an edifying word of prophesy for you... something similar like we heard in TWI ... edification, exhortation and comfort experience.
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So_crates
So naturally, being an expert in "spiritual mechanics" you're going to tell us how it works. How do you know how it works?
Do you understand God designed the physical world to help us understand the spiritual world? God says we're a family, so to help us understand that he created families. God says he is a father, to help us understand that he created fathers.
The other posters just explained something to you in that "logically logic" that Saint Vic claimed he used in PLAF. Then you did the exact opposite of your above complaint and refused to give it 35 seconds before you knee-jerked "this is too little PLAF" and let it cloud your understanding. Give it some time.
This is one thing that puts me off. For Saint Vic, anything was acceptable, just claim it was "spiritual." Don't let the sun go down on your anger, but "spiritual" anger is okay. Want to sin? Just stay right in your spirit and then sin all you want. Common sense tells us one thing, but, guess what, the spiritual world doesn't follow common sense.
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T-Bone
Great book, Rocky!
I’ll have to reread that sometime.
I vaguely remember something in the book about the difference between a pathfinder versus a helicopter – and I may have garbled up some of this – or processed it (“made it my own”
)… or “morphed it” the way I like apply it… …so help me out if I’m incorrect on stuff from the book – feel free to jump in…
Anyway…the pathfinder – or perhaps a tracker in problem-solving mode - is a painstaking approach on the ground – up-close to go over details with a fine-tooth comb; look at everything, break it down to essential parts, CSI-crime-scene style.
The helicopter goes for the overview – takes chances – may have lucky guesses where to look – or may be familiar with the topography and knows the likely places to look, maybe more familiar with the culprit’s modus operandi.
I remember reading this after I left TWI – and liked it more for inspiration in training technicians how to troubleshoot security systems. It takes some wisdom and experience to figure out which approach is the most appropriate on a service call – and sometimes one may switch modes if a clue leads you to do so.
Reflecting on my some 36-year journey since I left TWI – I think I used both approaches – and still do – to unravel the doctrinal issues and the intellectual and emotional baggage:
The pathfinder method - some of my troubleshooting is painstakingly slow –– checking out every trail - going over every detail of PFAL – like posters are doing on this thread. Getting into hermeneutics the way it’s supposed to be done. Exposing the logical fallacies, wierwille’s faulty redefining of biblical languages, etc.
Helicopter method – some of my favorite hobbies are reading about systematic theology, philosophy of religion and psychology. I kinda get the lay of the land – so in overview mode, I see connections - and how one thing may correlate with another...For example, how Gnosticism and fascination for supposedly special knowledge is sewn into the fabricate of PFAL - and that's one of the hooks of a cult-leader - appealing to a person's quest for answers.
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OldSkool
What in the actual eff does spiritual mechanics work like physical mechanics even mean? Please explain to me how spiritual mechanics work.
I think one of the basic problems with wierwille's so called theology is he just never seemed to understand what holy spirit was really for. It wasn't only for communication and it's presence or abscence in a person has nothing to do with God's ability to communicate. It is a downpayment, it is a new nature that gives us power over the sin nature so we don't have to obey the sin nature, it's a new creation born within us that one day will lead to our full bodily redemption, holy spirit convicts of sin and cleanses us from unrighteousness, etc. God has always communicated with his creation in a multitude of ways. Heck the very nature of the creation declares God's handiwork, there's astronomy, written scripture, burning bushes, talking donkeys, etc. The very narrowminded idea that spirit is needed on ourside and the preposterous idea that God CAN ONLY COMMUNICATE WITH SPIRIT is just ridicoulous. It doesn't fit with reality, scripture, history, astronomy, etc. in the least. Why must I accept this garbage? Because some guy put it in a book in an authoratative manner and demanded my agreement? Those days are long gone.
Please eloborate.
Ahh....were back to the assumed moral superiority based on how much time you've supposedly been doing something, with it's corresponding condescending attitude. You are just so much wiser than little ole' inexperienced me. Endless geanology type stuff. I've been reading and studying all things wierwille since 96 and thats plenty of time. I will give vpw's errors not another second in my life. If you continue to do so then enjoy your time in the ditch cause thats where people wind up who follow blind men. A wise man would spend about 35 seconds reading wierwilles baloney and put it down recognizing that it's riddled with error. Sadly I wasn't very wise when I was young but wierwille's cult targets the young and still does to this day.
Lemme get this straight. If wierwille says "God cannot" in a class then I should pay attention? You know what...I agree. It is an attention getter that he had no earthly idea what he's talking about. The only thing I know for sure that God cannot do is be tempted with evil, lie, or change. I refuse to be so arrogant to think that as a created being I can say with any authority what God cannot do besides what he puts in scripture, which I quoted - maybe my list isn't exhaustive but it doesn't need to be to refute your points.
Horrible analogy. Grasping straws....have to make up an analogy to try and make it fit...so what are we...God's little pets? Am I a spiritual doggie? Last time I checked we are sons of God purchased with the greatest price ever paid: the shedding of Jesus Christ's innocent blood. Comparing us to animals is just bad taste and unscriptural.
I've simmered enough. I've worked vics stuff for years and probably with more effectiveness that what you have been able to do because I had access and utilized heavily the camp Gunnison library and HQ library. I've listened to most all of the old corps tapes, university of life tapes, on down the line. I had access to every printed book and every syllabus worth clasping my hands on in those two libraries. I really did live maximum learning in minimum time to the fullest. I've been all over the way international from soup to nuts, from being joe believer to being an arrogant way corps cabinet guy. Sorry - being dismissive of my times and experiences in the way simply do not hold any water because I have been exposed to so much more than you.....see how that works? I can assume a popmpous, fake level of superiority as well. But I won't. I simply disagree with your postulate and many things vpw said and the way international still teaches.
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T-Bone
2 great points that need repeating!
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T-Bone
That is NOT a fact of Scripture but an assumption from a certain interpretation on your part.
And other matters for debate are what is spirit? What does death mean in Genesis?
What is the image and likeness of God in Genesis?
If humankind lost the image and likeness of God in Genesis – then why do passages written after the fall suggest humankind still retains that image?
However - I’m assuming the image is tarnished from the fall.
I started a thread in doctrinal and all are invited to ponder and give input here > Human nature and the fall
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Nathan_Jr
Except on that bright, sunshiny day when he spoke audibly to ol' victor. He spoke so that victor could hear him with crystal clarity through vic's old man, natural, five senses ears. Via physical mechanisms by the laws of physical mechanics. Out loud. Audibly. "Just like I'm speaking to you now."
Edited by Nathan_JrMmmmmph
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OldSkool
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Nathan_Jr
Bold is nice. And I understand your original intent. It works, but it's limited, like victor's god.
HOWEVER,
When using adverbs and conjunctions like this, please, PLEASE, use all caps.
kuala lumpur zhabba meetay (Thanks),
NJr
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Nathan_Jr
Ya aintz gots ta lie, Craaaig.
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