The annual field service report is out for the JWs. 8.5 million “publishers” spent 1.5 billion “service hours” knocking on doors to produce around 1.5m “baptisms”.
As they note on the thread that works out to a little over 10,000 “service hours” to produce one “baptism”.
They question the baptism numbers saying that they count those who grew up in the religion as about half of the baptisms.
All the top leaders in the Governing Body can feel real good about the souls they saved before Armageddon.
If you’re going to join a cult, this is pretty much what you can expect with respect to lifestyle.
TWI also plans “service hours” for followers but don’t use those terms. They also are focused on increasing numbers and reporting on “each one reach one”.
The new PFAL class drives all of this activity.
Just wanted those hamsters on the wheels to have a glimpse at what their life will be like before they jump on and start running for their life.
So I just asked ChatGPT if the Way International fits Steven Hassan’s BITE model.
I don’t have any more photo capacity to upload the response but it would be a pretty easy exercise for a reader to duplicate.
The response involves some caveats like check it out for yourself and YMMV type of statements, but then affirms that TWI controls behavior, information, thought and emotional control. And gives examples.
Sorry TWI - even artificial intelligence agrees you function like a cult.
Dictate where, how, and with whom the member lives and associates or isolates
When, how and with whom the member has sex
Control types of clothing and hairstyles
Regulate diet – food and drink, hunger and/or fasting
Manipulation and deprivation of sleep
Financial exploitation, manipulation or dependence
Restrict leisure, entertainment, vacation time
Major time spent with group indoctrination and rituals and/or self indoctrination including the Internet
Permission required for major decisions
Rewards and punishments used to modify behaviors, both positive and negative
Discourage individualism, encourage group-think
Impose rigid rules and regulations
Punish disobedience by beating, torture, burning, cutting, rape, or tattooing/branding
Threaten harm to family and friends
Force individual to rape or be raped
Encourage and engage in corporal punishment
Instill dependency and obedience
Kidnapping
Beating
Torture
Rape
Separation of Families
Imprisonment
Murder
Information Control
Deception:
a. Deliberately withhold information
b. Distort information to make it more acceptable
c. Systematically lie to the cult member
Minimize or discourage access to non-cult sources of information, including:
a. Internet, TV, radio, books, articles, newspapers, magazines, media
b. Critical information
c. Former members
d. Keep members busy so they don’t have time to think and investigate
e. Control through cell phone with texting, calls, internet tracking
Compartmentalize information into Outsider vs. Insider doctrines
a. Ensure that information is not freely accessible
b. Control information at different levels and missions within group
c. Allow only leadership to decide who needs to know what and when
Encourage spying on other members
a. Impose a buddy system to monitor and control member
b. Report deviant thoughts, feelings and actions to leadership
c. Ensure that individual behavior is monitored by group
Extensive use of cult-generated information and propaganda, including:
a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audiotapes, videotapes, YouTube, movies and other media
b. Misquoting statements or using them out of context from non-cult sources
Unethical use of confession
a. Information about sins used to disrupt and/or dissolve identity boundaries
b. Withholding forgiveness or absolution
c. Manipulation of memory, possible false memories
Thought Control
Require members to internalize the group’s doctrine as truth
a. Adopting the group’s ‘map of reality’ as reality
b. Instill black and white thinking
c. Decide between good vs. evil
d. Organize people into us vs. them (insiders vs. outsiders)
Change person’s name and identity
Use of loaded language and clichés which constrict knowledge, stop critical thoughts and reduce complexities into platitudinous buzz words
Encourage only ‘good and proper’ thoughts
Hypnotic techniques are used to alter mental states, undermine critical thinking and even to age regress the member
Memories are manipulated and false memories are created
Teaching thought-stopping techniques which shut down reality testing by stopping negative thoughts and allowing only positive thoughts, including:
a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
b. Chanting
c. Meditating
d. Praying
e. Speaking in tongues
f. Singing or humming
Rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism
Forbid critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy allowed
Labeling alternative belief systems as illegitimate, evil, or not useful
Instill new “map of reality”
Emotional Control
Manipulate and narrow the range of feelings – some emotions and/or needs are deemed as evil, wrong or selfish
Teach emotion-stopping techniques to block feelings of homesickness, anger, doubt
Make the person feel that problems are always their own fault, never the leader’s or the group’s fault
Promote feelings of guilt or unworthiness, such as:
a. Identity guilt
b. You are not living up to your potential
c. Your family is deficient
d. Your past is suspect
e. Your affiliations are unwise
f. Your thoughts, feelings, actions are irrelevant or selfish
g. Social guilt
f. Historical guilt
Instill fear, such as fear of:
a. Thinking independently
b. The outside world
c. Enemies
d. Losing one’s salvation
e. Leaving or being shunned by the group
f. Other’s disapproval
f. Historical guilt
Extremes of emotional highs and lows – love bombing and praise one moment and then declaring you are horrible sinner
Ritualistic and sometimes public confession of sins
Phobia indoctrination: inculcating irrational fears about leaving the group or questioning the leader’s authority
a. No happiness or fulfillment possible outside of the group
b. Terrible consequences if you leave: hell, demon possession, incurable diseases, accidents, suicide, insanity, 10,000 reincarnations, etc.
c. Shunning of those who leave; fear of being rejected by friends and family
d. Never a legitimate reason to leave; those who leave are weak, undisciplined, unspiritual, worldly, brainwashed by family or counselor, or seduced by money, sex, or rock and roll
e. Threats of harm to ex-member and family
Destructive mind control can be determined when the overall effect of these four components promotes dependency and obedience to some leader or cause; it is not necessary for every single item on the list to be present.
Like many techniques, it is not inherently good or evil. If mind control techniques are used to empower an individual to have more choice, and authority for their life remains within themselves, the effects can be beneficial. For example, benevolent mind control can be used to help people quit smoking without affecting any other behavior. Mind control becomes destructive when it undermines a person’s ability to think and act independently.
Not as impressed as I hoped I would be with that first video. Part of the reason was "to whom addressed." As a follower of TWI, I would have been wholly unimpressed with the argument that Wierwille was wrong about Christology because there's a word someone made up that defines away Wierwille's point by fiat. So you see, Wierwille is wrong because of hocuscadabra!
I did like how he documented Wierwille's cursory [at best] grasp of early church history, but he inadvertently exposed some of his own. To hear him tell it, the early church comprised nothing but orthodox trinitarians occasionally pestered by heretical wannabes. In reality there were a whole bunch of competing Christologies in the early church with orthodoxy winning out.
Veering off topic. Veering back.
As a message to a general audience, I'd give this video a B. As a message to a Christian audience, an A. As a message to a scholarly audience, a C-.
Not as impressed as I hoped I would be with that first video. Part of the reason was "to whom addressed." As a follower of TWI, I would have been wholly unimpressed with the argument that Wierwille was wrong about Christology because there's a word someone made up that defines away Wierwille's point by fiat. So you see, Wierwille is wrong because of hocuscadabra!
I did like how he documented Wierwille's cursory [at best] grasp of early church history, but he inadvertently exposed some of his own. To hear him tell it, the early church comprised nothing but orthodox trinitarians occasionally pestered by heretical wannabes. In reality there were a whole bunch of competing Christologies in the early church with orthodoxy winning out.
Veering off topic. Veering back.
As a message to a general audience, I'd give this video a B. As a message to a Christian audience, an A. As a message to a scholarly audience, a C-.
So this is a much younger pastor. He describes in the first two intro videos about actually attending a Way fellowship and not being impressed. But not a PFAL grad or anything. He maybe has been a teaching pastor for less than 5 years?
I liked his approach of going off the “statement of beliefs” of TWI and digging in to how they are masked to look the same as denominations.
On the early history I think it was JCNG that depicted some kind of battle where the trinitarians won out at Nicea or something like that. I welcomed a fresh perspective from someone who actually studied that at an accredited school for pastors. And I would concur with him not Wierwille that the majority of first century writers around the church talked of Christs divinity. There was one writer they rejected for one God one son of God views. I’m not buying this teachers perspective 100 percent either but I think JCNG has the shoddy research.
He wasn’t as familiar with TWI as we are so he got some things wrong. But I liked the overall teaching package he put together for a part of his congregation - educating them on cults and covering so many in detail.
I’m not grading him just enjoying a different perspective. I was attracted to the fact he chose TWI to cover first over the bigger three cults.
After sitting through his entire class I thought he did well at pointing out standard Christian belief versus cult belief. But he is not perfect or a peer journal level writer or teacher.
I first learned of this stuff from Robert Jay Lifton's book during my deprogramming episode. They spent a whole afternoon going thru the tactics of cults. I should have listened more closely back then (1981), but more importantly I wanted to get back to twi to be with my fiance'.
This highlights the pattern of cults to hoard money centrally and hide it. The shell corporations have no other function than to obscure the reporting on them both to authorities and to church members.
TWI also has an investment fund or funds, mostly comprised of the $65 million left over from the exodus.
Rosalie in the past has gone on in leaders meetings about how she wanted to have HQ as self sufficient and not dependent on the offerings of members. So the investments would cover the staff and upkeep expense. I don’t know how well that is working out now.
Shell funds and free labor. And mandated tithing. Those are the elements that keep cults functioning.
This highlights the pattern of cults to hoard money centrally and hide it. The shell corporations have no other function than to obscure the reporting on them both to authorities and to church members.
TWI also has an investment fund or funds, mostly comprised of the $65 million left over from the exodus.
Rosalie in the past has gone on in leaders meetings about how she wanted to have HQ as self sufficient and not dependent on the offerings of members. So the investments would cover the staff and upkeep expense. I don’t know how well that is working out now.
Shell funds and free labor. And mandated tithing. Those are the elements that keep cults functioning.
1) the $65million figure is likely grossly out of date. We just don't know, but if they were hoarding similarly to past history, and given they've dumped a couple of properties, it could be much more.
2) the LDS fine egregiously underwhelms. $5 million on a $32 BILLION asset value is one and a half hundredths of one percent (0.00015625). IOW, next to nothing as the fund owners/managers are concerned.
They probably celebrated with champagne (but didn't disclose doing so to church members). The SEC order said: "According to the order, the Church was concerned that disclosure of its portfolio, which by 2018 grew to approximately $32 billion, would lead to negative consequences."
2) the LDS fine egregiously underwhelms. $5 million on a $32 BILLION asset value is one and a half hundredths of one percent (0.00015625). IOW, next to nothing as the fund owners/managers are concerned.
Thanks. I was about to point out the same.
The fine is as egregiously vulgar as the hoarding. It is loose change in the cushions of the sofa. Literally.
Managing $32B conservatively with a 4% return yields $1.28B…. per annum!!
1) the $65million figure is likely grossly out of date. We just don't know, but if they were hoarding similarly to past history, and given they've dumped a couple of properties, it could be much more.
2) the LDS fine egregiously underwhelms. $5 million on a $32 BILLION asset value is one and a half hundredths of one percent (0.00015625). IOW, next to nothing as the fund owners/managers are concerned.
They probably celebrated with champagne (but didn't disclose doing so to church members). The SEC order said: "According to the order, the Church was concerned that disclosure of its portfolio, which by 2018 grew to approximately $32 billion, would lead to negative consequences."
The legal consequences will pale in comparison to the impact to the average poor Mormon who will think twice about sending a tithe in to a corrupt organization.
The legal consequences will pale in comparison to the impact to the average poor Mormon who will think twice about sending a tithe in to a corrupt organization.
The PR image will have far worse impact.
For those who remain "in" that cult, I suspect the PR impact will be ultimately nil. They're experts at social enforcement. So, the question will be, how many will exodus out. I'm figuring the sense of belonging is overwhelming and a very high percentage of their church will remain steadfast... or whatever way they characterize it.
Thanks for posting, it was good. I liked his handling of "tithing and abundant sharing" emphasizing we give out of love and gratefulness and not out of fear. I liked how he mentioned the time between Christ's ascension and the Council of Nicea, and the sources teaching that Jesus is God during that period. The biggest impact for me was when he said "they never experienced born again supernatural life change." Of course that's not true, how would he know? On the other hand, for those folks who didn't give up their pot and booze, it may be an eye opener. Does that mean we really aren't saved if we didn't see changes like that? Otherwise, I thought it was accurate.
For those who remain "in" that cult, I suspect the PR impact will be ultimately nil. They're experts at social enforcement. So, the question will be, how many will exodus out. I'm figuring the sense of belonging is overwhelming and a very high percentage of their church will remain steadfast... or whatever way they characterize it.
For the LDS their functioning is different than the JWs. People seldom exodus out officially they just stop coming to meetings and keep their names on the books.
For the LDS it looks better on their books to claim 17m members worldwide as opposed to the more accurate estimates of maybe 4m actively attending meetings. Those doing the temple ceremonies are far less even among so called actives.
The JWs are polar opposite. Their 7m members or whatever they claim are lite as an estimate. They only put people on the books who are actively serving as “publishers” meaning the cart work and D2D.
liked his handling of "tithing and abundant sharing" emphasizing we give out of love and gratefulness and not out of fear.
I didn't watch the video but if they are saying we are still supposed to tithe then that's incorrect. Tithing was for the Levites, we aren't under Mosaic law so we are simply instructed to give as we purpose in our hearts and to give cheerfully, not of necessity, or compulsion in other words.
I didn't watch the video but if they are saying we are still supposed to tithe then that's incorrect. Tithing was for the Levites, we aren't under Mosaic law so we are simply instructed to give as we purpose in our hearts and to give cheerfully, not of necessity, or compulsion in other words.
When I skimmed thru most of the video... it seems that this guy spends a lot of time trying to dissect wierwille's stance on One God versus the trinity. Of course, he picks some scriptures but certainly neglects other aspects. For instance:
If Jesus Christ is God.... then why is he called "the last Adam?" Was the "first man Adam" God too? 1Co 15:45Andsoit is written,The firstmanAdamwas madea livingsoul;the lastAdamwas madea quickeningspirit.
Jesus Christ is referenced as "the Passover Lamb."Wasn't the OT sacrifice of a lamb without spot and blemish to be taken from the flock of the sheep? If Jesus was in existence before (i.e. God, in the beginning of time), then he was NOT taken from the flock of the sheep.... but "of heaven." Or, equivalent.
1Co 5:7 Get rid of the old “yeast” by removing this wicked person from among you. Then you will be like a fresh batch of dough made without yeast, which is what you really are. Christ, ourPassover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us
There is a scripture reference that Jesus didn't know the time of his death. If he were God incarnate, on earth, wouldn't he have known the time of his death?
None of this validates the times where wierwille took liberties of private interpretation in the Scriptures.... but it does raise valid points that this guy in the video doesn't even begin to address.
I could probably cite another ten if I took the time to think more about it.
When I skimmed thru most of the video... it seems that this guy spends a lot of time trying to dissect wierwille's stance on One God versus the trinity. Of course, he picks some scriptures but certainly neglects other aspects. For instance:
If Jesus Christ is God.... then why is he called "the last Adam?" Was the "first man Adam" God too?1Co 15:45Andsoit is written,The firstmanAdamwas madea livingsoul;the lastAdamwas madea quickeningspirit.
Jesus Christ is referenced as "the Passover Lamb."Wasn't the OT sacrifice of a lamb without spot and blemish to be taken from the flock of the sheep? If Jesus was in existence before (i.e. God, in the beginning of time), then he was NOT taken from the flock of the sheep.... but "of heaven." Or, equivalent.
There is a scripture reference that Jesus didn't know the time of his death. If he were God incarnate, on earth, wouldn't he have known the time of his death?
None of this validates the times where wierwille took liberties of private interpretation in the Scriptures.... but it does raise valid points that this guy in the video doesn't even begin to address.
I could probably cite another ten if I took the time to think more about it.
Thanks! Sounds like I will likely skip the video..I appreciate the heads up.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
59
15
79
31
Popular Days
Oct 4
16
Nov 30
10
Feb 27
10
Oct 6
9
Top Posters In This Topic
Rocky 59 posts
penworks 15 posts
chockfull 79 posts
Nathan_Jr 31 posts
Popular Days
Oct 4 2023
16 posts
Nov 30 2023
10 posts
Feb 27 2023
10 posts
Oct 6 2023
9 posts
Popular Posts
Nathan_Jr
I really despise these euphemisms, but charlatans and criminals wouldn’t leave the house without them. The media seems to have normalized this linguistic apologetic by referring to rape as sexual
Stayed Too Long
Great atticle defining a cult https://findingmyway12.substack.com/p/waityou-grew-up-in-a-cult
penworks
I admire Jennifer's bravery in sharing her traumatic experiences and related information on Substack. Here's my blog today that includes a link to her post: Speaking of "Way" Stories ... | C
Posted Images
chockfull
Manipulation tactics used by cults:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Here’s a new podcast by Dr Stephen Hassan on Detecting Deception:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/7ak2QdYhJXyBY7V8T11cik
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
And a lot more of his podcasts can be found here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strengthening_Church_Members_Committee
Here we go. The Mormons have a committee for detecting critical statements from members.
Findings are forwarded to local leaders for excommunication due to apostasy.
I think every cult has one of these!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
The annual field service report is out for the JWs. 8.5 million “publishers” spent 1.5 billion “service hours” knocking on doors to produce around 1.5m “baptisms”.
As they note on the thread that works out to a little over 10,000 “service hours” to produce one “baptism”.
They question the baptism numbers saying that they count those who grew up in the religion as about half of the baptisms.
All the top leaders in the Governing Body can feel real good about the souls they saved before Armageddon.
If you’re going to join a cult, this is pretty much what you can expect with respect to lifestyle.
TWI also plans “service hours” for followers but don’t use those terms. They also are focused on increasing numbers and reporting on “each one reach one”.
The new PFAL class drives all of this activity.
Just wanted those hamsters on the wheels to have a glimpse at what their life will be like before they jump on and start running for their life.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
So I just asked ChatGPT if the Way International fits Steven Hassan’s BITE model.
I don’t have any more photo capacity to upload the response but it would be a pretty easy exercise for a reader to duplicate.
The response involves some caveats like check it out for yourself and YMMV type of statements, but then affirms that TWI controls behavior, information, thought and emotional control. And gives examples.
Sorry TWI - even artificial intelligence agrees you function like a cult.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Thanks chockfull!
Steven Hassan developed the BITE Model to describe the specific methods that cults use to recruit and maintain control over people. “BITE” stands for Behavior, Information, Thought, and Emotional control.
Behavior Control
Information Control
a. Deliberately withhold information
b. Distort information to make it more acceptable
c. Systematically lie to the cult member
a. Internet, TV, radio, books, articles, newspapers, magazines, media
b. Critical information
c. Former members
d. Keep members busy so they don’t have time to think and investigate
e. Control through cell phone with texting, calls, internet tracking
a. Ensure that information is not freely accessible
b. Control information at different levels and missions within group
c. Allow only leadership to decide who needs to know what and when
a. Impose a buddy system to monitor and control member
b. Report deviant thoughts, feelings and actions to leadership
c. Ensure that individual behavior is monitored by group
a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audiotapes, videotapes, YouTube, movies and other media
b. Misquoting statements or using them out of context from non-cult sources
a. Information about sins used to disrupt and/or dissolve identity boundaries
b. Withholding forgiveness or absolution
c. Manipulation of memory, possible false memories
Thought Control
a. Adopting the group’s ‘map of reality’ as reality
b. Instill black and white thinking
c. Decide between good vs. evil
d. Organize people into us vs. them (insiders vs. outsiders)
a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
b. Chanting
c. Meditating
d. Praying
e. Speaking in tongues
f. Singing or humming
Emotional Control
a. Identity guilt
b. You are not living up to your potential
c. Your family is deficient
d. Your past is suspect
e. Your affiliations are unwise
f. Your thoughts, feelings, actions are irrelevant or selfish
g. Social guilt
f. Historical guilt
a. Thinking independently
b. The outside world
c. Enemies
d. Losing one’s salvation
e. Leaving or being shunned by the group
f. Other’s disapproval
f. Historical guilt
a. No happiness or fulfillment possible outside of the group
b. Terrible consequences if you leave: hell, demon possession, incurable diseases, accidents, suicide, insanity, 10,000 reincarnations, etc.
c. Shunning of those who leave; fear of being rejected by friends and family
d. Never a legitimate reason to leave; those who leave are weak, undisciplined, unspiritual, worldly, brainwashed by family or counselor, or seduced by money, sex, or rock and roll
e. Threats of harm to ex-member and family
Destructive mind control can be determined when the overall effect of these four components promotes dependency and obedience to some leader or cause; it is not necessary for every single item on the list to be present.
Like many techniques, it is not inherently good or evil. If mind control techniques are used to empower an individual to have more choice, and authority for their life remains within themselves, the effects can be beneficial. For example, benevolent mind control can be used to help people quit smoking without affecting any other behavior. Mind control becomes destructive when it undermines a person’s ability to think and act independently.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Deep into the first video and looking forward to getting into the one on JWs. As a survivor of both groups, I'm really having fun with it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Not as impressed as I hoped I would be with that first video. Part of the reason was "to whom addressed." As a follower of TWI, I would have been wholly unimpressed with the argument that Wierwille was wrong about Christology because there's a word someone made up that defines away Wierwille's point by fiat. So you see, Wierwille is wrong because of hocuscadabra!
I did like how he documented Wierwille's cursory [at best] grasp of early church history, but he inadvertently exposed some of his own. To hear him tell it, the early church comprised nothing but orthodox trinitarians occasionally pestered by heretical wannabes. In reality there were a whole bunch of competing Christologies in the early church with orthodoxy winning out.
Veering off topic. Veering back.
As a message to a general audience, I'd give this video a B. As a message to a Christian audience, an A. As a message to a scholarly audience, a C-.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
So this is a much younger pastor. He describes in the first two intro videos about actually attending a Way fellowship and not being impressed. But not a PFAL grad or anything. He maybe has been a teaching pastor for less than 5 years?
I liked his approach of going off the “statement of beliefs” of TWI and digging in to how they are masked to look the same as denominations.
On the early history I think it was JCNG that depicted some kind of battle where the trinitarians won out at Nicea or something like that. I welcomed a fresh perspective from someone who actually studied that at an accredited school for pastors. And I would concur with him not Wierwille that the majority of first century writers around the church talked of Christs divinity. There was one writer they rejected for one God one son of God views. I’m not buying this teachers perspective 100 percent either but I think JCNG has the shoddy research.
He wasn’t as familiar with TWI as we are so he got some things wrong. But I liked the overall teaching package he put together for a part of his congregation - educating them on cults and covering so many in detail.
I’m not grading him just enjoying a different perspective. I was attracted to the fact he chose TWI to cover first over the bigger three cults.
After sitting through his entire class I thought he did well at pointing out standard Christian belief versus cult belief. But he is not perfect or a peer journal level writer or teacher.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Yeah, thanks chockfull.
I first learned of this stuff from Robert Jay Lifton's book during my deprogramming episode. They spent a whole afternoon going thru the tactics of cults. I should have listened more closely back then (1981), but more importantly I wanted to get back to twi to be with my fiance'.
Hassan studied the thought reform theories of Robert Jay Lifton, and concluded that he was "able to see clearly that the Moon organization uses all eight" characteristics of thought reform as described by Lifton.[21] Hassan studied the work of Richard Bandler and John Grinder who developed neuro-linguistic programming, the works of Milton Erickson, Virginia Satir, and Gregory Bateson,[21] and used their works as a basis to develop his own theories on mind control, counseling, and intervention.
.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Free labor is the currency of cults. They spend it freely.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
How do they get cult members to work for free? Well, it wasn't necessarily promising 70 virgins upon fulfillment of the mission.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
The Mormons are facing charges from their $32 billion dollar shell company:
https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-35
This highlights the pattern of cults to hoard money centrally and hide it. The shell corporations have no other function than to obscure the reporting on them both to authorities and to church members.
TWI also has an investment fund or funds, mostly comprised of the $65 million left over from the exodus.
Rosalie in the past has gone on in leaders meetings about how she wanted to have HQ as self sufficient and not dependent on the offerings of members. So the investments would cover the staff and upkeep expense. I don’t know how well that is working out now.
Shell funds and free labor. And mandated tithing. Those are the elements that keep cults functioning.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
1) the $65million figure is likely grossly out of date. We just don't know, but if they were hoarding similarly to past history, and given they've dumped a couple of properties, it could be much more.
2) the LDS fine egregiously underwhelms. $5 million on a $32 BILLION asset value is one and a half hundredths of one percent (0.00015625). IOW, next to nothing as the fund owners/managers are concerned.
They probably celebrated with champagne (but didn't disclose doing so to church members). The SEC order said: "According to the order, the Church was concerned that disclosure of its portfolio, which by 2018 grew to approximately $32 billion, would lead to negative consequences."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Thanks. I was about to point out the same.
The fine is as egregiously vulgar as the hoarding. It is loose change in the cushions of the sofa. Literally.
Managing $32B conservatively with a 4% return yields $1.28B…. per annum!!
A $5M penalty is just…
Dark.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
The legal consequences will pale in comparison to the impact to the average poor Mormon who will think twice about sending a tithe in to a corrupt organization.
The PR image will have far worse impact.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Someone’s mom on exmormon just decided to leave over this. Yes the fine is nothing. What it exposes is bigger.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
For those who remain "in" that cult, I suspect the PR impact will be ultimately nil. They're experts at social enforcement. So, the question will be, how many will exodus out. I'm figuring the sense of belonging is overwhelming and a very high percentage of their church will remain steadfast... or whatever way they characterize it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Thanks for posting, it was good. I liked his handling of "tithing and abundant sharing" emphasizing we give out of love and gratefulness and not out of fear. I liked how he mentioned the time between Christ's ascension and the Council of Nicea, and the sources teaching that Jesus is God during that period. The biggest impact for me was when he said "they never experienced born again supernatural life change." Of course that's not true, how would he know? On the other hand, for those folks who didn't give up their pot and booze, it may be an eye opener. Does that mean we really aren't saved if we didn't see changes like that? Otherwise, I thought it was accurate.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
For the LDS their functioning is different than the JWs. People seldom exodus out officially they just stop coming to meetings and keep their names on the books.
For the LDS it looks better on their books to claim 17m members worldwide as opposed to the more accurate estimates of maybe 4m actively attending meetings. Those doing the temple ceremonies are far less even among so called actives.
The JWs are polar opposite. Their 7m members or whatever they claim are lite as an estimate. They only put people on the books who are actively serving as “publishers” meaning the cart work and D2D.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
I didn't watch the video but if they are saying we are still supposed to tithe then that's incorrect. Tithing was for the Levites, we aren't under Mosaic law so we are simply instructed to give as we purpose in our hearts and to give cheerfully, not of necessity, or compulsion in other words.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
When I skimmed thru most of the video... it seems that this guy spends a lot of time trying to dissect wierwille's stance on One God versus the trinity. Of course, he picks some scriptures but certainly neglects other aspects. For instance:
1Co 5:7 Get rid of the old “yeast” by removing this wicked person from among you. Then you will be like a fresh batch of dough made without yeast, which is what you really are. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us
None of this validates the times where wierwille took liberties of private interpretation in the Scriptures.... but it does raise valid points that this guy in the video doesn't even begin to address.
I could probably cite another ten if I took the time to think more about it.
added scripture reference
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Thanks! Sounds like I will likely skip the video..I appreciate the heads up.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.