Number 9 is hilarious!! Is this real for LDS? It's not just stupid, it's four crucified stupid.
Yeah real. I think 2018 was the first time black people were legally qualified for the priesthood due to a historic racist comment by an old LDS apostle leader.
There are two life size versions I believe one is in the lobby of the auditorium.
Oh snap, I didn't realize there were two. When I left in 2008 the one in the auditorium was still there, to the right of the main doors to the auditorium.
And yes, for anyone thinking Chockfull is joking about that bronze statue sitting on desks all across way international clergy land: He isnt! That is actual and factual.
Finished up the Cults class teaching on Heavens Gate.
The impact that had on me was that the tactics were similar to other cults isolating people into a small group for control purposes.
However this one really brought home the impact of remaining isolated in a group like that for an extended period of time. Like the Stanford prison experiment which had guards turned into gestapo tyrants inside of 3 days, this group drifted further and further off course directed by two people, which eventually ended in mass suicide.
The battle is real folks for your mind and the freedom of your mind.
So on the cults topic this is nothing new the Way has faced this criticism from forever, back when I joined and before and up until this day.
I remember when I was in how I used to think it was so unfair to compare the Way to all these other groups like the JWs, Scientology, the Mormons.
I used to think “they don’t know us at all we are nothing like that”.
Why did I flip my views?
I guess over time I gradually started paying attention more to the actions and results of the group and less to their sales pitch. And personally I experienced my average fellow community member caring more for my life as proven upon many occasions than the leadership of the group I had dedicated my life to showed.
When you look at the fruit as Jesus taught and tune out the static it starts to emerge more clearly.
A small exclusive group at the top. No outside oversight. A free proselytizing force. Money flowing one way on the wings of obligation. The fleecing of the sheep for as much wool as exists on the coat, regardless of the upcoming winter for the sheep. Hamster wheel like activity for self perpetuating motion. Excommunication and shunning. Isolation, even from others of similar cause.
All those things exist in common for cults.
The schtick varies, from L Ron Hubbard and the self enlightenment path, to Joseph Smith and his golden tablets from the angel Moroni and sessions in a hat, to a Watchtower Society of the 144000 in the end times, to a fictional snowstorm and a promise to know scripture hidden since the first century.
Thought some of you might enjoy (?) this book review of a recently released book by an escaping Sea Org scientologist. I think some of us can so relate to what he felt when he left - hiding in doorways. (It's a free article, and you don't need to "register" to read it.)
Yes, I have it on Kindle to read. Also saw him on Leah Remini's series. I'm fascinated with Scientology because it has so many parallels to TWI. Their doctrine is totally different but their methods in how they are organized and how they treat people are similar.
Following up on my Cults class, here is the website for the Heavens Gate group. Since they all mass suicided, someone with some affinity to the group keeps up the website and correspondence.
Ti and Do the leaders were known as, and recruited members themselves with others by “love bombing” as is a common cult tactic for recruitment or to enact an agenda. They would isolate members and sway them to their cause. Immediately upon accepting the convert received a new name and was only called by the new name. Family members said it was just like they dropped off the face of the earth, extreme isolation and the adoption of a new identity.
Cults offer the promise of virtue but in actuality the power in the virtue is diverted for selfish causes.
Following up on my Cults class, here is the website for the Heavens Gate group. Since they all mass suicided, someone with some affinity to the group keeps up the website and correspondence.
Ti and Do the leaders were known as, and recruited members themselves with others by “love bombing” as is a common cult tactic for recruitment or to enact an agenda. They would isolate members and sway them to their cause. Immediately upon accepting the convert received a new name and was only called by the new name. Family members said it was just like they dropped off the face of the earth, extreme isolation and the adoption of a new identity.
Cults offer the promise of virtue but in actuality the power in the virtue is diverted for selfish causes.
I wonder if they were taught to write the new names on 3x5 cards so they might remember.
Next up in the series is the Rosicrucian order. I personally had not heard of this group. It is an example also of something I had not run into, “Christian mysticism”. This concept based on mystery teachings conveys a personal sense of connection with a deity, and basing an approach and philosophy from that.
I personally see a boundary highlighted here for myself. If your viewpoint approaches more of the “good buddy” type of personalization for God and Jesus Christ, then the danger is to sway into mystic religion and abandon scripture for seeking experience.
I see a true Christian relationship with God and Jesus Christ having elements of both - a personalized experience especially in prayer, and a respect for scripture and engagement in study.
The Way is over the boundary on the fundamentalism side, and the repackaged class does zilch to address any of those errors and get honest about their past.
These Rosicrucian types are over the boundary on personal experience. Degrades to a mystery religion with no teaching text and study that represents a common standard or common virtuous goals.
So one of the things I’ve done in conjunction with this cult class study is I joined a Reddit group for exmormans. You can search for it but it basically is a lot like this site. Exmormans posting threads and commenting.
Much of the Mormon content I posted is from there and the pictures.
So one of the sites that debunks Mormon history is CES letters above in link. More recently the “apostles” of Mormonism have determined that the “first vision” that Joseph Smith had is of utmost importance to people’s life today.
This page shows that there were 4 versions of the “first vision” that Joseph Smith had of the angel Moroni, he was between 14-16 years old, and that he never told another soul about it for 12-22 years.
Moroni in the vision supposedly told Smith that all of the denominations had apostasized away from the true church and that he JS would lead Gods people into a church with latter day saints.
This story led to the creation and development of the worlds largest cult at 17 million followers.
I see quite a number of parallels between this story and the “1942 promise” that VPW claimed and that the Way loves to have rumors circulating about but no official commentary on or support of.
This story led to the creation and development of the worlds largest cult at 17 million followers.
I see quite a number of parallels between this story and the “1942 promise” that VPW claimed and that the Way loves to have rumors circulating about but no official commentary on or support of.
Another way to view it or rather to label it is to realize each is the cult's "origin myth."
It is uncanny to me the parallels between Mormons and TWI. It’s like the Mormons are the “big brother cult” to TWI.
What I mean by that is not that there is any contact or shared doctrine.
But the interplay of human nature all working with the leadership organization setup all show the same patterns TWI is going through and coming up with on a larger scale with 17m followers not 5000 ish.
Whitewash the cultishness - check. Now they hate the term Mormon and prefer the full LDS title. Looks more Christian.
Family values and celestial kingdoms and rules. Looks wholesome to the outside. Hides the politics on the inside.
President Nelson is all about winning new people and is hyper focused on building temples all over the world. This magnifies him but he says it magnifies Christ.
Meanwhile you have a cult extracting a tithe regardless of anything else for a temple recommendation.
It is the epitome of hypocrisy for the bishops to sit with each member and document the tithe while at the same time the riches of the whole Mormon kingdom are not even known but they can spend $100M on the mall closest to their Salt Lake City temple, putting in a retracting ceiling for the comfort of shoppers buying Mormon product. They enrich themselves and their centers and neglect their own poor.
I am so glad I took this cult class as it has my mind focusing on patterns of behavior as opposed to the sales pitches involved. Or recognizing the sales pitches.
And yes the class teacher fully admits in the intro that there is no specific definition for a cult that holds true across examples. Just patterns of behavior. And the overall feel of overstepping boundaries that should be in place for normal people.
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Nathan_Jr
I really despise these euphemisms, but charlatans and criminals wouldn’t leave the house without them. The media seems to have normalized this linguistic apologetic by referring to rape as sexual
Stayed Too Long
Great atticle defining a cult https://findingmyway12.substack.com/p/waityou-grew-up-in-a-cult
penworks
I admire Jennifer's bravery in sharing her traumatic experiences and related information on Substack. Here's my blog today that includes a link to her post: Speaking of "Way" Stories ... | C
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chockfull
Yeah real. I think 2018 was the first time black people were legally qualified for the priesthood due to a historic racist comment by an old LDS apostle leader.
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chockfull
Here’s a picture of a statue unveiling in India. One of the white old Mormon apostles was real happy to be there.
What is it with cult leaders and golden statues?
This looks a lot like the golden calf Timothy statues at the Way.
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chockfull
Apparently the LGTBQ+ shooter was on Mormon member rolls.
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OldSkool
They made that life size bronze statue of wierwille they keep in the lobby of the auditorium.
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Nathan_Jr
Really? Like, actually? Or, are you joking?
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OldSkool
Actual...all bull shonta aside. They even put his eye glasses in his hand...
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Nathan_Jr
I’ve looked for an image of this bronze idol on TWI’s site, but can’t find anything. If anyone has a photo image of this vulgarity, please share.
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OldSkool
It was like this but lifesize and the glasses were in the outstretched hand.
So....yes....they have a bronzed MOGFODAT!
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/original-1991-dr-victor-paul-1889151999
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chockfull
Here is the miniature golden calf version that all of the Way clergy have sitting on their desk to remind them of the prototype they are growing into.
There are two life size versions I believe one is in the lobby of the auditorium.
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OldSkool
Oh snap, I didn't realize there were two. When I left in 2008 the one in the auditorium was still there, to the right of the main doors to the auditorium.
And yes, for anyone thinking Chockfull is joking about that bronze statue sitting on desks all across way international clergy land: He isnt! That is actual and factual.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
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chockfull
Finished up the Cults class teaching on Heavens Gate.
The impact that had on me was that the tactics were similar to other cults isolating people into a small group for control purposes.
However this one really brought home the impact of remaining isolated in a group like that for an extended period of time. Like the Stanford prison experiment which had guards turned into gestapo tyrants inside of 3 days, this group drifted further and further off course directed by two people, which eventually ended in mass suicide.
The battle is real folks for your mind and the freedom of your mind.
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Share on other sites
chockfull
So on the cults topic this is nothing new the Way has faced this criticism from forever, back when I joined and before and up until this day.
I remember when I was in how I used to think it was so unfair to compare the Way to all these other groups like the JWs, Scientology, the Mormons.
I used to think “they don’t know us at all we are nothing like that”.
Why did I flip my views?
I guess over time I gradually started paying attention more to the actions and results of the group and less to their sales pitch. And personally I experienced my average fellow community member caring more for my life as proven upon many occasions than the leadership of the group I had dedicated my life to showed.
When you look at the fruit as Jesus taught and tune out the static it starts to emerge more clearly.
A small exclusive group at the top. No outside oversight. A free proselytizing force. Money flowing one way on the wings of obligation. The fleecing of the sheep for as much wool as exists on the coat, regardless of the upcoming winter for the sheep. Hamster wheel like activity for self perpetuating motion. Excommunication and shunning. Isolation, even from others of similar cause.
All those things exist in common for cults.
The schtick varies, from L Ron Hubbard and the self enlightenment path, to Joseph Smith and his golden tablets from the angel Moroni and sessions in a hat, to a Watchtower Society of the 144000 in the end times, to a fictional snowstorm and a promise to know scripture hidden since the first century.
Everybody has got a pitch.
What happens in the delivery of the goods though?
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waysider
It's like a certain homecare products MLM that leaves you wondering, "Who buys the soap?".
You'll find yourself wondering, "Who lives this 'abundant life' they pitched?".
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outandabout
Yes, I have it on Kindle to read. Also saw him on Leah Remini's series. I'm fascinated with Scientology because it has so many parallels to TWI. Their doctrine is totally different but their methods in how they are organized and how they treat people are similar.
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chockfull
https://www.heavensgate.com
Following up on my Cults class, here is the website for the Heavens Gate group. Since they all mass suicided, someone with some affinity to the group keeps up the website and correspondence.
Ti and Do the leaders were known as, and recruited members themselves with others by “love bombing” as is a common cult tactic for recruitment or to enact an agenda. They would isolate members and sway them to their cause. Immediately upon accepting the convert received a new name and was only called by the new name. Family members said it was just like they dropped off the face of the earth, extreme isolation and the adoption of a new identity.
Cults offer the promise of virtue but in actuality the power in the virtue is diverted for selfish causes.
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Nathan_Jr
I wonder if they were taught to write the new names on 3x5 cards so they might remember.
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chockfull
Next up in the series is the Rosicrucian order. I personally had not heard of this group. It is an example also of something I had not run into, “Christian mysticism”. This concept based on mystery teachings conveys a personal sense of connection with a deity, and basing an approach and philosophy from that.
I personally see a boundary highlighted here for myself. If your viewpoint approaches more of the “good buddy” type of personalization for God and Jesus Christ, then the danger is to sway into mystic religion and abandon scripture for seeking experience.
I see a true Christian relationship with God and Jesus Christ having elements of both - a personalized experience especially in prayer, and a respect for scripture and engagement in study.
The Way is over the boundary on the fundamentalism side, and the repackaged class does zilch to address any of those errors and get honest about their past.
These Rosicrucian types are over the boundary on personal experience. Degrades to a mystery religion with no teaching text and study that represents a common standard or common virtuous goals.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
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chockfull
So one of the things I’ve done in conjunction with this cult class study is I joined a Reddit group for exmormans. You can search for it but it basically is a lot like this site. Exmormans posting threads and commenting.
Much of the Mormon content I posted is from there and the pictures.
Why do I care?
Mormons are probably the largest functioning cult worldwide. Their membership numbers are over 16 million now worldwide. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Membership_statistics_of_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints
The Way International at its highest even rumored point with the most inflated numbers I have heard say that 100,000 people took PFAL.
More realistic numbers I’ve heard over the past decade or more put USA total membership numbers somewhere in the 2500 - 3000 range.
So orders of magnitude lower in impact and influence.
The exmos have their own lingo and acronyms that are funny and interesting. Here are a few:
TSCC - the so called church
TBM - true blue Mormon
PIMO - physically in mentally out
IHOH - international house of handshakes (the temple)
Funny and interesting. I would probably say when I was a leader in TWI that over 50% would be PIMO.
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chockfull
A Mormon joke comedian.
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chockfull
https://read.cesletter.org/first-vision/#contradictions
So one of the sites that debunks Mormon history is CES letters above in link. More recently the “apostles” of Mormonism have determined that the “first vision” that Joseph Smith had is of utmost importance to people’s life today.
This page shows that there were 4 versions of the “first vision” that Joseph Smith had of the angel Moroni, he was between 14-16 years old, and that he never told another soul about it for 12-22 years.
Moroni in the vision supposedly told Smith that all of the denominations had apostasized away from the true church and that he JS would lead Gods people into a church with latter day saints.
This story led to the creation and development of the worlds largest cult at 17 million followers.
I see quite a number of parallels between this story and the “1942 promise” that VPW claimed and that the Way loves to have rumors circulating about but no official commentary on or support of.
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Rocky
Another way to view it or rather to label it is to realize each is the cult's "origin myth."
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chockfull
It is uncanny to me the parallels between Mormons and TWI. It’s like the Mormons are the “big brother cult” to TWI.
What I mean by that is not that there is any contact or shared doctrine.
But the interplay of human nature all working with the leadership organization setup all show the same patterns TWI is going through and coming up with on a larger scale with 17m followers not 5000 ish.
Whitewash the cultishness - check. Now they hate the term Mormon and prefer the full LDS title. Looks more Christian.
Family values and celestial kingdoms and rules. Looks wholesome to the outside. Hides the politics on the inside.
President Nelson is all about winning new people and is hyper focused on building temples all over the world. This magnifies him but he says it magnifies Christ.
Meanwhile you have a cult extracting a tithe regardless of anything else for a temple recommendation.
It is the epitome of hypocrisy for the bishops to sit with each member and document the tithe while at the same time the riches of the whole Mormon kingdom are not even known but they can spend $100M on the mall closest to their Salt Lake City temple, putting in a retracting ceiling for the comfort of shoppers buying Mormon product. They enrich themselves and their centers and neglect their own poor.
I am so glad I took this cult class as it has my mind focusing on patterns of behavior as opposed to the sales pitches involved. Or recognizing the sales pitches.
And yes the class teacher fully admits in the intro that there is no specific definition for a cult that holds true across examples. Just patterns of behavior. And the overall feel of overstepping boundaries that should be in place for normal people.
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chockfull
There is a current fictional crime TV series that explores the Mormons called Under the Banner of Heaven.
I watched it and they do an uncanny job of portraying inside and outside thinking and the LDS church.
I thought I would post it up as entertainment recommendations for former cult members.
If you like the murder mystery stuff then it will connect.
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Rocky
I watched the series when it was first available (on Hulu). It resonated with me.
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