Well if you look at the records in the Bible that Mike is talking about, it is obvious that he is right about one thing - God often uses imperfect men to do big jobs for Him, in fact not only often, but ALWAYS except for in the case of Jesus.
That being said, the issue is did God select VPW as a big job worker? Because the focus of the Way International was POWER, and not the cross of Christ, his impact was quite distorted from the gospel that the New Testament canon puts forth. It was a grand case of 'cherry picking' scriptures to assemble a cistern to imprison human beings in.
That being said, I do not believe it was VPs intention to mislead about the Word. I think he was mostly just mislead himself and it snowballed into something bigger than himself, eventually dragging him along for the ride.....just thinking out loud.
I appreciate a lot of your thinking out loud, like when you wrote: "Well if you look at the records in the Bible that Mike is talking about, it is obvious that he is right about one thing - God often uses imperfect men to do big jobs for Him, in fact not only often, but ALWAYS except for in the case of Jesus. "
Thank you.
Might I add that sometimes God’s willingness to tolerate extremes of imperfection in His workers has been to a strategic advantage for Him. Paul is an extreme example of this. God turns the tables on the adversary is some pretty surprising ways; ways we’d NEVER conceive, or approve of, if given advanced notice.
*/*/*/*/*
You then wrote:
“That being said, the issue is did God select VPW as a big job worker? Because the focus of the Way International was POWER, and not the cross of Christ, his impact was quite distorted from the gospel that the New Testament canon puts forth. It was a grand case of 'cherry picking' scriptures to assemble a cistern to imprison human beings in.
The big job I see VPW accomplishing is the set of written forms of PFAL, the collateral books especially. The focus of that end product of the 1942 promise is pure and pristine, and leads readers to a good relationship with the Father and His son, the living Christ Jesus.
But you are right, fredgrant, about TWI being focused on power and other things, depending on WHEN you look at it, and what factions within it you look at.TWI was like a swirling marble cake of light and dark spots, and still is to some degree, and with the same potential. TWI is only as good as those with gift-ministries within it make it to be, and people have their ups and downs.
But the big job that VPW got done is the collaterals.There is ZERO new doctrine in them, only clarifications on the earlier established doctrine. The revelations within the collaterals came from all sorts of men of God, and mostly VPW’s big job was to collect the right parts for us.
When people freely come back to written PFAL, and don’t bring with them all the baggage of an over-supervised past exposure, the cumulative effect of all that authoritative clarification of the original revelation can be again appreciated, and better the second time around.
So then, once again, why bother with the bible? Why not get born again and do as we damn please? Then, according to you, we'll join the ranks of those listed above and God may give us some of His big jobs, right?
No, it is NOT according to me that if we go out and sin boldly "...we'll join the ranks of those listed above and God may give us some of His big jobs, right?" NO, not right at all. That is up to God, and He just got His big 1942 job done. He may not need you for a big job. AND most crucially, God can look ahead and see if you would be able to get a big job done. Are you able?
*/*/*/*
You wrote:
"So then, once again, why bother with the bible? Why not get born again and do as we damn please?"
REWARDS, both now and later.
That's the reason Jesus put up with the cross: God gave him plenty of visions of the future that his pain would buy. Jesus saw his PAYCHECK in those future visions. Paul saw the same thing and he ran so he could OBTAIN rewards, as he put it.
There are plenty of reasons to hang in there as LONG as possible, and the same reasons apply to get back in fellowship as QUICKLY as possible.
Are you familiar with 1 Cor chapter 3? The first half is devoted to the idea of winning rewards, and avoiding the loss of rewards.
I believe, was the list the writers themselves had assembled and passed on.
Pure, unfounded speculation. This is fantasy land and historically it didn't happen this way at ALL. But that's the problem with wierwille's doctrines. They produce cognitive dissonance because they aren't true - the victim is left struggling to match reality with the lies wierwille pushed and the way international still push. So a false reality is needed to match the garbage wierwille interjected into scripture. You fully see that in action at HQ, everyone running around with a fake smile thinking they are on the frontlines of the spiritual competition, when in fact, they are basically menial labor that's overworked and underpayed. Cognitive dissonance.
No, it is NOT according to me that if we go out and sin boldly "...we'll join the ranks of those listed above and God may give us some of His big jobs, right?" NO, not right at all. That is up to God, and He just got His big 1942 job done. He may not need you for a big job. AND most crucially, God can look ahead and see if you would be able to get a big job done. Are you able?
*/*/*/*
You wrote:
"So then, once again, why bother with the bible? Why not get born again and do as we damn please?"
REWARDS, both now and later.
That's the reason Jesus put up with the cross: God gave him plenty of visions of the future that his pain would buy. Jesus saw his PAYCHECK in those future visions. Paul saw the same thing and he ran so he could OBTAIN rewards, as he put it.
There are plenty of reasons to hang in there as LONG as possible, and the same reasons apply to get back in fellowship as QUICKLY as possible.
Are you familiar with 1 Cor chapter 3? The first half is devoted to the idea of winning rewards, and avoiding the loss of rewards.
Very poor reasoning.
Among Saint Vic's responsibilities was to set an example. He obviously wasn't motivated by the promise of spiritual Scooby snacks and why should I be? Did his decision to disobey God every opportunity he got hurt him any? Again, according to you, of all the great examples God could have chosen for this, so called, important revelation, he chose a man who epitomized sin.
So why should I ignore PLAF and the bible and follow Saint Vic's example and do as I damn please? According to you, these are the type of people God chooses to do His "big jobs." Therefore, there's a chance that He'll choose me to do a "big job."
its ok if you don't get Mike to say he's wrong. Really, it is. Try to let it go.
First off, I don't appreciate being patronized.
Second, you apparently don't get what Mike is saying. Basically, what Mike is saying is anyone who commits the worst of sins against God's family should get a pass based on the claim they were doing God's "big job."
Second, you [ fredgrant ] apparently don't get what Mike is saying. Basically, what Mike is saying is anyone who commits the worst of sins against God's family should get a pass based on the claim they were doing God's "big job."
That is NOT what I am saying!
Are you deliberately twisting what I am saying?
What I am saying is IF God can work some big jobs with those sinners, think of how much BETTER He can work with us, who are NOT sinning.
There was NEVER a hint of encouragement in my words to go out and "get a pass" on sin. We may be in for some big surprises in how the rewards are passed out (or withheld) for those who milked God's grace, mercy, and forgiveness.
It is none of our business whom God picks to do His big jobs. His selection is aimed at getting the jobs done, and has nothing to do with what we do, or what sensibilities of justice we may harbor.
Once again, your communication is your responsibility. It's not my job to guess what you're saying. If I'm getting it wrong, maybe you should change the way your message is being transmitted.
6 hours ago, Mike said:
What I am saying is IF God can work some big jobs with those sinners, think of how much BETTER He can work with us, who are NOT sinning.
Yah, sure, we see that every day in the ministry, don't we?
6 hours ago, Mike said:
There was NEVER a hint of encouragement in my words to go out and "get a pass" on sin.
Actually, there is encouragement in your words. You gave Saint Vic a pass, you claim God gave Saint Vic pass, therefore, as God is no respecter of persons, why shouldn't we all get a pass?
6 hours ago, Mike said:
We may be in for some big surprises in how the rewards are passed out (or withheld) for those who milked God's grace, mercy, and forgiveness.
As I said, Saint Vic didn't worry about his rewards. As God, according to you, put him in a position to be my example, why should I be worried about my rewards.
6 hours ago, Mike said:
It is none of our business whom God picks to do His big jobs. His selection is aimed at getting the jobs done, and has nothing to do with what we do, or what sensibilities of justice we may harbor.
Wrong! God says He's a just God, therefore His decisions would be based on justice.
So if God's sensibilities of justice differs from ours, why should we trust Him to be just?
Pure, unfounded speculation. This is fantasy land and historically it didn't happen this way at ALL. But that's the problem with wierwille's doctrines. They produce cognitive dissonance because they aren't true - the victim is left struggling to match reality with the lies wierwille pushed and the way international still push. So a false reality is needed to match the garbage wierwille interjected into scripture. You fully see that in action at HQ, everyone running around with a fake smile thinking they are on the frontlines of the spiritual competition, when in fact, they are basically menial labor that's overworked and underpayed. Cognitive dissonance.
Actually, YES, it is speculation on my part, as I spelled it out the action in the later centuries.
What is NOT speculation is my reading of the MANY verses that plainly say the writers were also given the responsibility to keep the written revelations decent and in order. That would include a list of the most "sure" documents. The gentle hand of God is not a speculation, but an expectation that is justified by His stated will.
I have only begun to document the MANY verses that state the writers' recognized responsibilities to not just get the revelations into written form, but to also send them off into posterity with protection and guidance.
I still have many more verses to post. So far we have been limited to discuss 2 Timothy verses.
*/*/*/*
As far as cognitive dissonance, you may not understand how that works. The one suffering from it will have TWO trains of thought chugging away inside, but the two trains of thought are opposed to each other.
Can you better identify the two opposing thoughts that are simultaneously at work in one brain? I think you only identified one thought opposing reality. That is not how it works.
Has anyone else thought of the similarities of wierwille’s claim of hearing God’s voice and the “canon” of PFAL and Joseph Smith’s claim of an angel appearing to him and the “canon” of The Book of Mormon?
It seems to me wierwille/PFALand Smith/Book of Mormon both used their quick and dirty methods as a shortcut to thumb their noses at the development of the New Testament canon .
Actually, YES, it is speculation on my part, as I spelled it out the action in the later centuries.
What is NOT speculation is my reading of the MANY verses that plainly say the writers were also given the responsibility to keep the written revelations decent and in order. That would include a list of the most "sure" documents. The gentle hand of God is not a speculation, but an expectation that is justified by His stated will.
I have only begun to document the MANY verses that state the writers' recognized responsibilities to not just get the revelations into written form, but to also send them off into posterity with protection and guidance.
I still have many more verses to post. So far we have been limited to discuss 2 Timothy verses.
*/*/*/*
As far as cognitive dissonance, you may not understand how that works. The one suffering from it will have TWO trains of thought chugging away inside, but the two trains of thought are opposed to each other.
Can you better identify the two opposing thoughts that are simultaneously at work in one brain? I think you only identified one thought opposing reality. That is not how it works.
the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.
I used to think he suffers cognitive dissonance, also. Then, THen, THEn, THEN!! it was suggested to me that it is denial. After observing without prejudice, or without a mind contaminated with confirmation bias, I was able to see he is, indeed, in denial.
Has anyone else thought of the similarities of wierwille’s claim of hearing God’s voice and the “canon” of PFAL and Joseph Smith’s claim of an angel appearing to him and the “canon” of The Book of Mormon?
It seems to me wierwille/PFALand Smith/Book of Mormon both used their quick and dirty methods as a shortcut to thumb their noses at the development of the New Testament canon .
No, no no.
Joseph Smith introduced TONS of new doctrine,
and MANY new books to the "canon."
VPW's collaterals add ZERO new doctrine,
and add ZERO new books to the canon.
I used to think he suffers cognition dissonance, also. Then, THen, THEn, THEN!! it was suggested to me that it is denial. After observing without prejudice, or without a mind contaminated with confirmation bias, I was able to see he is, indeed, in denial.
Lo shonta!
Snow and gloves. Always in that order.
Im thinking denial as a main course with a nice hot side of cognitive dissonance. Good point on denial though.
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Twinky
I haven't been following this thread but had a peek. This whole thread is absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the canon of scripture. But I did note the following, originally posted by our
waysider
Ahhh, those were the days.
waysider
Bake 'em away, toys.
Posted Images
Mike
I appreciate a lot of your thinking out loud, like when you wrote:
"Well if you look at the records in the Bible that Mike is talking about, it is obvious that he is right about one thing - God often uses imperfect men to do big jobs for Him, in fact not only often, but ALWAYS except for in the case of Jesus. "
Thank you.
Might I add that sometimes God’s willingness to tolerate extremes of imperfection in His workers has been to a strategic advantage for Him. Paul is an extreme example of this. God turns the tables on the adversary is some pretty surprising ways; ways we’d NEVER conceive, or approve of, if given advanced notice.
*/*/*/*/*
You then wrote:
“That being said, the issue is did God select VPW as a big job worker? Because the focus of the Way International was POWER, and not the cross of Christ, his impact was quite distorted from the gospel that the New Testament canon puts forth. It was a grand case of 'cherry picking' scriptures to assemble a cistern to imprison human beings in.
The big job I see VPW accomplishing is the set of written forms of PFAL, the collateral books especially. The focus of that end product of the 1942 promise is pure and pristine, and leads readers to a good relationship with the Father and His son, the living Christ Jesus.
But you are right, fredgrant, about TWI being focused on power and other things, depending on WHEN you look at it, and what factions within it you look at. TWI was like a swirling marble cake of light and dark spots, and still is to some degree, and with the same potential. TWI is only as good as those with gift-ministries within it make it to be, and people have their ups and downs.
But the big job that VPW got done is the collaterals. There is ZERO new doctrine in them, only clarifications on the earlier established doctrine. The revelations within the collaterals came from all sorts of men of God, and mostly VPW’s big job was to collect the right parts for us.
When people freely come back to written PFAL, and don’t bring with them all the baggage of an over-supervised past exposure, the cumulative effect of all that authoritative clarification of the original revelation can be again appreciated, and better the second time around.
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Mike
No, it is NOT according to me that if we go out and sin boldly "...we'll join the ranks of those listed above and God may give us some of His big jobs, right?" NO, not right at all. That is up to God, and He just got His big 1942 job done. He may not need you for a big job. AND most crucially, God can look ahead and see if you would be able to get a big job done. Are you able?
*/*/*/*
You wrote:
"So then, once again, why bother with the bible? Why not get born again and do as we damn please?"
REWARDS, both now and later.
That's the reason Jesus put up with the cross: God gave him plenty of visions of the future that his pain would buy. Jesus saw his PAYCHECK in those future visions. Paul saw the same thing and he ran so he could OBTAIN rewards, as he put it.
There are plenty of reasons to hang in there as LONG as possible, and the same reasons apply to get back in fellowship as QUICKLY as possible.
Are you familiar with 1 Cor chapter 3? The first half is devoted to the idea of winning rewards, and avoiding the loss of rewards.
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Mike
Last bullet: A still fluid, but developing list....
What is fluid is the set of lists that, at that time, were varying from each other a little.
But within that set of lists, I believe, was the list the writers themselves had assembled and passed on.
This one list, flowing along with the other lists in the set, slowly dominated because God's gentle hand was on it.
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OldSkool
Pure, unfounded speculation. This is fantasy land and historically it didn't happen this way at ALL. But that's the problem with wierwille's doctrines. They produce cognitive dissonance because they aren't true - the victim is left struggling to match reality with the lies wierwille pushed and the way international still push. So a false reality is needed to match the garbage wierwille interjected into scripture. You fully see that in action at HQ, everyone running around with a fake smile thinking they are on the frontlines of the spiritual competition, when in fact, they are basically menial labor that's overworked and underpayed. Cognitive dissonance.
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waysider
Rare footage of the good old days has been recently discovered.
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OldSkool
Yeah...rainbows and waterfalls!
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waysider
Ahhh, those were the days.
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T-Bone
Oh yeah - I’ve seen this movie already - the very next scene is the bus in flames going over the cliff
Man they don’t make them like that anymore
movies?
no. Flaming bus going over the cliff. Now it’s all that fake CGI stuff
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So_crates
Very poor reasoning.
Among Saint Vic's responsibilities was to set an example. He obviously wasn't motivated by the promise of spiritual Scooby snacks and why should I be? Did his decision to disobey God every opportunity he got hurt him any? Again, according to you, of all the great examples God could have chosen for this, so called, important revelation, he chose a man who epitomized sin.
So why should I ignore PLAF and the bible and follow Saint Vic's example and do as I damn please? According to you, these are the type of people God chooses to do His "big jobs." Therefore, there's a chance that He'll choose me to do a "big job."
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So_crates
First off, I don't appreciate being patronized.
Second, you apparently don't get what Mike is saying. Basically, what Mike is saying is anyone who commits the worst of sins against God's family should get a pass based on the claim they were doing God's "big job."
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waysider
PFAL was one of God's "big jobs"?
Who knew?
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Mike
That is NOT what I am saying!
Are you deliberately twisting what I am saying?
What I am saying is IF God can work some big jobs with those sinners, think of how much BETTER He can work with us, who are NOT sinning.
There was NEVER a hint of encouragement in my words to go out and "get a pass" on sin. We may be in for some big surprises in how the rewards are passed out (or withheld) for those who milked God's grace, mercy, and forgiveness.
It is none of our business whom God picks to do His big jobs. His selection is aimed at getting the jobs done, and has nothing to do with what we do, or what sensibilities of justice we may harbor.
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So_crates
Once again, your communication is your responsibility. It's not my job to guess what you're saying. If I'm getting it wrong, maybe you should change the way your message is being transmitted.
Yah, sure, we see that every day in the ministry, don't we?
Actually, there is encouragement in your words. You gave Saint Vic a pass, you claim God gave Saint Vic pass, therefore, as God is no respecter of persons, why shouldn't we all get a pass?
As I said, Saint Vic didn't worry about his rewards. As God, according to you, put him in a position to be my example, why should I be worried about my rewards.
Wrong! God says He's a just God, therefore His decisions would be based on justice.
So if God's sensibilities of justice differs from ours, why should we trust Him to be just?
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Mike
Actually, YES, it is speculation on my part, as I spelled it out the action in the later centuries.
What is NOT speculation is my reading of the MANY verses that plainly say the writers were also given the responsibility to keep the written revelations decent and in order. That would include a list of the most "sure" documents. The gentle hand of God is not a speculation, but an expectation that is justified by His stated will.
I have only begun to document the MANY verses that state the writers' recognized responsibilities to not just get the revelations into written form, but to also send them off into posterity with protection and guidance.
I still have many more verses to post. So far we have been limited to discuss 2 Timothy verses.
*/*/*/*
As far as cognitive dissonance, you may not understand how that works. The one suffering from it will have TWO trains of thought chugging away inside, but the two trains of thought are opposed to each other.
Can you better identify the two opposing thoughts that are simultaneously at work in one brain? I think you only identified one thought opposing reality. That is not how it works.
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T-Bone
Has anyone else thought of the similarities of wierwille’s claim of hearing God’s voice and the “canon” of PFAL and Joseph Smith’s claim of an angel appearing to him and the “canon” of The Book of Mormon ?
It seems to me wierwille/PFAL and Smith/Book of Mormon both used their quick and dirty methods as a shortcut to thumb their noses at the development of the New Testament canon .
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OldSkool
Cool. As long as u know.
cog·ni·tive dis·so·nance
/ˈkäɡnədiv ˈdisənəns/
Learn to pronounce
noun
PSYCHOLOGY
the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.
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Nathan_Jr
What kind of weirdo was John the Baptizer?
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Nathan_Jr
I used to think he suffers cognitive dissonance, also. Then, THen, THEn, THEN!! it was suggested to me that it is denial. After observing without prejudice, or without a mind contaminated with confirmation bias, I was able to see he is, indeed, in denial.
Lo shonta!
Snow and gloves. Always in that order.
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Mike
No, no no.
Joseph Smith introduced TONS of new doctrine,
and MANY new books to the "canon."
VPW's collaterals add ZERO new doctrine,
and add ZERO new books to the canon.
BIG, BIG DIFFERENCES.
...trivial similarities.
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OldSkool
Im thinking denial as a main course with a nice hot side of cognitive dissonance. Good point on denial though.
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Nathan_Jr
What kind of weirdo was John the Baptizer?
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waysider
No new doctrine:
The seed of satan is not new doctrine?
No new books:
Not even PFAL?
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Nathan_Jr
Four crucified is new.
Tithing as the sine qua non of Christian identity is new.
SIT is the most important thing a Christian can do is new.
Bar mitzvahs were given at a different age for bastard Jews in "Bible times" is new.
Jesus was a bastard Jew is new.
Translating ekklesia as "called out" is new.
Rape in private is only a problem if you BELEEVE it to be is new.
Masturbation is the original sin is new.
The trees in the garden are symbolic of people is new.
So many new things, kidz...
Edited by Nathan_JrAll NEW. All HUGE liabilities. Did you ever see Inglorious Basterds? You know who the Bear Jew is? Mmm...mmm... mmmmmph!
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Nathan_Jr
PFAL is only new in foreknowledge. The PFAL tucked under Jesus's arm at the return, that's the new one. You've got to get your meta and pros straight.
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