ROFLMAO! After watching that salient little clip I have to say that I won't be touching pennies anylonger....lo-shonta!
Those pennies are the power. You heard the man. Eight figgers a year! It's so simple. It makes perfect sense. Did you notice the golf glove? Notice how perfectly it fits his hand? Just a tremendous fitting. A real dandy.
I guess I was mistaken about our recent conversation. I thought WE were having a mini-breakthrough talking TO each other rather than talking PAST each other.
Maybe you don’t realize this but to me - to ME, Mike you come off insulting and condescending tion is being held in abeyance.
There are some things that I am sure of, and I will not budge on them. At least I tell you what they are. If you think progress with me is me backing off from my certainty with these issues, you are mistaken. You will not see that kind of progress.
There are many things I am not sure of, and we can discuss them better.
Maybe YOU will learn from me. If you think you can't, then that is the filter you use to see me, and all you can see is my certainty, and then interpret it as ego.
*/*/*/*/*/*
In the meantime, instead of talking about me, and my teacher, let's get back to the canon.
We talked about the Top-Down approach for a while, now it's time for the Bottom-Up approach.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*
It’s here! It’s here!
The last installment to my 1970s paper is here.
Did you see those two installments of text on Timothy?
They can be found way back on page 8.
Here they are on page 8:
1st installment – page 8 @ 30% mark, 23 hours ago,
Sat 10-15-22 ~ 9:00 am Pacific Time
2nd installment – page 8 @ 55% mark, 22 hours ago,
Sat 10-15-22 ~ 10 am Pacific Time
*/*/*/*/*/*/*
The third and LAST installment is below. It picks up where the long “a” list and the long “b” list left off. Those two lists made up the abababababa structure of 2 Timothy I’ve talked about.
Now we can see chapter 4, verse 13 as one of God’s final instructions to Timothy prior to his journey to see Pau1. The context of preserving the Word builds intensity toward this point.
“The cloak that I Paul left at Troas with Carpus,
when thou Timothy comest, bring with thee,
and the books, but especially the parchments.”
Paul is collecting together the remnant of faithful believers: Timothy, Mark and Luke (4:11). The timing of their meeting is close to Paul’s death (4:9), and Timothy is twice told to hurry (4:9,21) . The purpose of the meeting is to profit the ministry (4:11). The overall context (preserving the Word) builds up to 4:13, where the immediate context becomes the preservation of the Word, especially the ministry of the mystery, so that it can be preserved beyond the death of the man of God, Paul. So what do you think they were doing at that meeting?
They were pouring over books, parchments, Old Testament writings, writings of the early church; Paul’s seven church epistles, the two epistles to Timothy, Mark’s Gospel (or possibly the bare beginnings of it), possibly Luke’s Gospel and Luke’s Acts of the Apostles, just to name a few.
The word “cloak” stands out oddly in 4:13, but is singularly significant. Since all scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof and correction, then there must be some profit to Timothy, for God to have Paul mention this cloak. It couldn’t just be thrown in there because Paul missed his favorite jacket. That would completely deflate the intensity of the context build-up for the final instruction for Timothy’s journey.
Here is my theory on this:
The reason this particular cloak is mentioned has to do with Oriental customs. In the East a mantle, or cloak, is significant of social standing, prestige and authority. When Paul taught the Word at the School of Tyrannus he wore the mantle or cloak of The Teacher. He had the authority at that school where the beginnings of the ministry of the mystery first sprang to life and spread all throughout Asia Minor (Acts 19:9,10). Since there’s no indication Paul broke this common custom, we can assume he did wear a cloak of authority. There were probably many other occasions in Paul’s ministry as the man of God to the Gentiles, where proper cultural procedures demanded use of the authority cloak.
Now he’s telling Timothy to bring a certain cloak at the same time he mentions a LAST meeting with books, parchments, Mark, Luke, and profit to the ministry beyond Paul’s execution the prime topic.
What God is doing is building the believing and expectations of Timothy and Mark for that meeting by including mention of this cloak.
Their purpose for meeting was to be of such depth that it would have the authority of the man of God behind it, and that his ministry was NOT dead, in spite of the loss of the mystery revelation in most of the church.
The epistle started with Timothy being told not to be ashamed of Paul’s ministry. Now he’s being told the same thing, only in the positive sense: That their meeting was to have God’s stamp of approval on it.
By studying to rightly divide the Word, one obtains God’s approval and needs never be ashamed. It’s no wonder Timothy is told to study in verse 2:15, and then to build his expectations for that meeting, because they were REALLY going to do some right dividing of the Word there.
Now, for an unexpected plot twist in this detective mystery. Verse 4:13in the Aramaic text does NOT have the word “cloak” at all, but instead a word translated “book carrier,” and literally is “book house.” This would be a bag or case used for transporting, in his missionary travels, the most necessary books in Paul’s library.
In other words, the Aramaic indicates that there was already some work done in this field of collecting and compiling criticality important writings EVEN BEFORE Paul, Timothy, Mark and Luke were to meet.
So the Greek and the Aramaic, although differing on this one word, both supply interesting possibilities in understanding the gist of that first century meeting. Both of these indications point in the same direction: that God’s men were working on collecting God’s Word well before the canonization process took p1ace.
There’s even a further possibility that BOTH the Greek and Aramaic are correct, and BOTH Paul’s cloak of authority and Paul’s book bag collection were indicated in the original text.
In the East, oftentimes huge pockets are found in clothing for the purposes of carrying and transporting objects. If Paul carried his books in these pockets or pouches, then the discrepancy in the Greek and Aramaic may only be due to each language emphasizing different aspects of the same garment.
*/*/*/*/*
An authoritative pre-assembly of many of the books of the New Testament probably took place at or around that meeting in the first century. This would explain why the seven church epistles are always found in the exact same order no matter how old the manuscripts. Their invariant order indicates their assembling together at a very early date; earlier than the oldest known manuscripts.
Since these epistles are specifically addressed to us as church member of the Body of Christ, AND since they serve as our springboard to understanding all the other portions of the Bible addressed to other people, careful attention is demanded. Knowledge of the origins of these epistles is most vital to us. As for the final compilation of the other books of the Bible, including the Gospels, Epistles and Revelation of John, we can rest assured that God watched over that process in the same manner we’ve noticed throughout this essay: That God instructed His men as to how to put the Word together, the SAME men He had to write it.
Besides the scriptures we’ve considered thus far, there are many more clues that fit into the whole story. You might want to look up Romans 16:26, Colossians 4:16, I Thessalonians 5:27, II Thessalonians 2: 2,I Timothy 4:13 , Hebrews 2:1, Revelation 22:18,19. These will add to the impact of going through through II Timothy in light of its twofold context described here.
It is a thrilling thing to see the broad hints God puts in His written Word to assure us that we have the real McCoy, and not a product of the will of man, or an accident of history. God stands behind His word and it “liveth and abideth forever.” He knew what He was doing when He gave gift ministries to men, to carry out this work.
We can be extremely thankful that God chose the men He did to teach His Word.
For the authoritative assembling of the books of the Bible, we don’t have to look to ancient historical artifacts, or canonization committees hundreds of years after the apostles, or to the traditions of highly organized religion. We look to the men of God He has placed in our midst for that kind of information (Ephesians 4:l2).
We should never be overly concerned with the details of how the Bible was assembled, if that concern grows into doubt and interferes with our living the Word. We've got to get real sharp on trusting God, and not leaning on our own understanding, but leaning totally on the accuracy and integrity of His Word.
We can, however, become intimately aware of the processes by which God breathed His written Word, as we walk in the spirit and learn to talk with our heavenly Father for advice in how to help people. And we can see the preservation mechanisms God used to protect His Word as we first endeavor to uphold the integrity of His Word in our own lives.
Which is the exact reason I stopped responding and posting on these topics. It's pointless because there is no honest diuscussion with Mike. He has an agenda (get us to retake PFLAP), he seems to think were all stupid for not believing what he does, it's obvious he doesn't really read anyone's posts besides looking for cannon fodder, passive/agressive veiled insults - constantly, and .... he uses textbook trolling tactics that are designed to disrupt, distract, etc. I really wanted to get into this topic but Mike makes it all about himself and we oblige. Anywho. I actually applaud you and Nathan_Jr's stick-tuit-ness because someone has to respond to the constant BS. My 2 cents anyway.
No, my agenda is to give good reasons for people to come back to PFAL.
I try my best in integrate my messages to each thread.
Here in this thread I have introduced a new way of looking at the canon.
I want that to be part of the discussion, and I get resistance, so I fight back hard.
When I encounter less resistance, then I can present my side of the canon story much better.
I defend myself from all sorts of attacks and distortions, and then accused of making the thread about me. I am tired of me. Let's talk canon.
The other day, I saw a guy banging his head against the wall. "Sir", I said, "That looks horribly painful." "Oh, it is, it really is'.", he assured me. "Why, then, do you continue to do it?" , I questioned. "Well", he said, "It just feels so darn good when I stop."
There are some things that I am sure of, and I will not budge on them. At least I tell you what they are. If you think progress with me is me backing off from my certainty with these issues, you are mistaken. You will not see that kind of progress
And, by the same token, you must realize there are some things WE will not budge on.
As for me:
Do I believe God would have entrusted what you claim was the most important revelation since the bible itself with a man who defined sin and refused to repent? Not God as I understand him in the bible.
Do I believe PLAF is God breathe? Seems to me something God breathe would work. After 40 years of failure, I can honestly say it doesn't work.
In a prior post on this thread, you said we didn't try your postulates. Au contraire, most of the people taking part in this thread are class grads, so we have tried the bulk of your postulates and found them lacking.
2 hours ago, Mike said:
No, my agenda is to give good reasons for people to come back to PFAL.
I try my best in integrate my messages to each thread.
So your going to force them back because you know what's better for them than they do, right?
Oh, and if you're experiencing distortions, your responsible for your communication. It's not my responsibility to guess what you mean. If you're not getting the results you want find a better way to transmit the message.
Dig that...that's why I got beta ways to spend .my time...got beta cents than that. Psycho alpha disco beta bio-aqua do loop...got me quoting George Clinton and Parliament Funkadelics now .. yeah
a: an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture
b: the authentic works of a writer
c: a sanctioned oraccepted group or body of related works
Just in case you weren't reading your post it says:
Canon Merriam-Webster Dictionary noun
a: an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture
b: the authentic works of a writer
c: a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works
The most authoritative list would be one the AUTHOR (God) and or His helpers who wrote it for Him, the ones we see physically as AUTHORS (the apostles).
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
199
126
90
153
Popular Days
Oct 17
109
Oct 11
87
Oct 15
69
Oct 10
54
Top Posters In This Topic
Mike 199 posts
T-Bone 126 posts
OldSkool 90 posts
Nathan_Jr 153 posts
Popular Days
Oct 17 2022
109 posts
Oct 11 2022
87 posts
Oct 15 2022
69 posts
Oct 10 2022
54 posts
Popular Posts
Twinky
I haven't been following this thread but had a peek. This whole thread is absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the canon of scripture. But I did note the following, originally posted by our
waysider
Ahhh, those were the days.
waysider
Bake 'em away, toys.
Posted Images
Nathan_Jr
Those pennies are the power. You heard the man. Eight figgers a year! It's so simple. It makes perfect sense. Did you notice the golf glove? Notice how perfectly it fits his hand? Just a tremendous fitting. A real dandy.
"One at a time, of course!"
Edited by Nathan_JrLo shonta!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Quite welcom sir, quite welcome...lo shonta...I mean lol
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
There are some things that I am sure of, and I will not budge on them. At least I tell you what they are. If you think progress with me is me backing off from my certainty with these issues, you are mistaken. You will not see that kind of progress.
There are many things I am not sure of, and we can discuss them better.
Maybe YOU will learn from me. If you think you can't, then that is the filter you use to see me, and all you can see is my certainty, and then interpret it as ego.
*/*/*/*/*/*
In the meantime, instead of talking about me, and my teacher, let's get back to the canon.
We talked about the Top-Down approach for a while, now it's time for the Bottom-Up approach.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*
It’s here! It’s here!
The last installment to my 1970s paper is here.
Did you see those two installments of text on Timothy?
They can be found way back on page 8.
Here they are on page 8:
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25333-new-testament-canon/page/8/
1st installment – page 8 @ 30% mark, 23 hours ago,
Sat 10-15-22 ~ 9:00 am Pacific Time
2nd installment – page 8 @ 55% mark, 22 hours ago,
Sat 10-15-22 ~ 10 am Pacific Time
*/*/*/*/*/*/*
The third and LAST installment is below. It picks up where the long “a” list and the long “b” list left off. Those two lists made up the abababababa structure of 2 Timothy I’ve talked about.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Installment #3
This picks up with the “cloak” verse, 2 Tim 4:13
Now we can see chapter 4, verse 13 as one of God’s final instructions to Timothy prior to his journey to see Pau1. The context of preserving the Word builds intensity toward this point.
“The cloak that I Paul left at Troas with Carpus,
when thou Timothy comest, bring with thee,
and the books, but especially the parchments.”
Paul is collecting together the remnant of faithful believers: Timothy, Mark and Luke (4:11). The timing of their meeting is close to Paul’s death (4:9), and Timothy is twice told to hurry (4:9,21) . The purpose of the meeting is to profit the ministry (4:11). The overall context (preserving the Word) builds up to 4:13, where the immediate context becomes the preservation of the Word, especially the ministry of the mystery, so that it can be preserved beyond the death of the man of God, Paul. So what do you think they were doing at that meeting?
They were pouring over books, parchments, Old Testament writings, writings of the early church; Paul’s seven church epistles, the two epistles to Timothy, Mark’s Gospel (or possibly the bare beginnings of it), possibly Luke’s Gospel and Luke’s Acts of the Apostles, just to name a few.
The word “cloak” stands out oddly in 4:13, but is singularly significant. Since all scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof and correction, then there must be some profit to Timothy, for God to have Paul mention this cloak. It couldn’t just be thrown in there because Paul missed his favorite jacket. That would completely deflate the intensity of the context build-up for the final instruction for Timothy’s journey.
Here is my theory on this:
The reason this particular cloak is mentioned has to do with Oriental customs. In the East a mantle, or cloak, is significant of social standing, prestige and authority. When Paul taught the Word at the School of Tyrannus he wore the mantle or cloak of The Teacher. He had the authority at that school where the beginnings of the ministry of the mystery first sprang to life and spread all throughout Asia Minor (Acts 19:9,10). Since there’s no indication Paul broke this common custom, we can assume he did wear a cloak of authority. There were probably many other occasions in Paul’s ministry as the man of God to the Gentiles, where proper cultural procedures demanded use of the authority cloak.
Now he’s telling Timothy to bring a certain cloak at the same time he mentions a LAST meeting with books, parchments, Mark, Luke, and profit to the ministry beyond Paul’s execution the prime topic.
What God is doing is building the believing and expectations of Timothy and Mark for that meeting by including mention of this cloak.
Their purpose for meeting was to be of such depth that it would have the authority of the man of God behind it, and that his ministry was NOT dead, in spite of the loss of the mystery revelation in most of the church.
The epistle started with Timothy being told not to be ashamed of Paul’s ministry. Now he’s being told the same thing, only in the positive sense: That their meeting was to have God’s stamp of approval on it.
By studying to rightly divide the Word, one obtains God’s approval and needs never be ashamed. It’s no wonder Timothy is told to study in verse 2:15, and then to build his expectations for that meeting, because they were REALLY going to do some right dividing of the Word there.
Now, for an unexpected plot twist in this detective mystery. Verse 4:13 in the Aramaic text does NOT have the word “cloak” at all, but instead a word translated “book carrier,” and literally is “book house.” This would be a bag or case used for transporting, in his missionary travels, the most necessary books in Paul’s library.
In other words, the Aramaic indicates that there was already some work done in this field of collecting and compiling criticality important writings EVEN BEFORE Paul, Timothy, Mark and Luke were to meet.
So the Greek and the Aramaic, although differing on this one word, both supply interesting possibilities in understanding the gist of that first century meeting. Both of these indications point in the same direction: that God’s men were working on collecting God’s Word well before the canonization process took p1ace.
There’s even a further possibility that BOTH the Greek and Aramaic are correct, and BOTH Paul’s cloak of authority and Paul’s book bag collection were indicated in the original text.
In the East, oftentimes huge pockets are found in clothing for the purposes of carrying and transporting objects. If Paul carried his books in these pockets or pouches, then the discrepancy in the Greek and Aramaic may only be due to each language emphasizing different aspects of the same garment.
*/*/*/*/*
An authoritative pre-assembly of many of the books of the New Testament probably took place at or around that meeting in the first century. This would explain why the seven church epistles are always found in the exact same order no matter how old the manuscripts. Their invariant order indicates their assembling together at a very early date; earlier than the oldest known manuscripts.
Since these epistles are specifically addressed to us as church member of the Body of Christ, AND since they serve as our springboard to understanding all the other portions of the Bible addressed to other people, careful attention is demanded. Knowledge of the origins of these epistles is most vital to us. As for the final compilation of the other books of the Bible, including the Gospels, Epistles and Revelation of John, we can rest assured that God watched over that process in the same manner we’ve noticed throughout this essay: That God instructed His men as to how to put the Word together, the SAME men He had to write it.
Besides the scriptures we’ve considered thus far, there are many more clues that fit into the whole story. You might want to look up Romans 16:26, Colossians 4:16, I Thessalonians 5:27, II Thessalonians 2: 2, I Timothy 4:13 , Hebrews 2:1, Revelation 22:18,19. These will add to the impact of going through through II Timothy in light of its twofold context described here.
It is a thrilling thing to see the broad hints God puts in His written Word to assure us that we have the real McCoy, and not a product of the will of man, or an accident of history. God stands behind His word and it “liveth and abideth forever.” He knew what He was doing when He gave gift ministries to men, to carry out this work.
We can be extremely thankful that God chose the men He did to teach His Word.
For the authoritative assembling of the books of the Bible, we don’t have to look to ancient historical artifacts, or canonization committees hundreds of years after the apostles, or to the traditions of highly organized religion. We look to the men of God He has placed in our midst for that kind of information (Ephesians 4:l2).
We should never be overly concerned with the details of how the Bible was assembled, if that concern grows into doubt and interferes with our living the Word. We've got to get real sharp on trusting God, and not leaning on our own understanding, but leaning totally on the accuracy and integrity of His Word.
We can, however, become intimately aware of the processes by which God breathed His written Word, as we walk in the spirit and learn to talk with our heavenly Father for advice in how to help people. And we can see the preservation mechanisms God used to protect His Word as we first endeavor to uphold the integrity of His Word in our own lives.
The End
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
No, my agenda is to give good reasons for people to come back to PFAL.
I try my best in integrate my messages to each thread.
Here in this thread I have introduced a new way of looking at the canon.
I want that to be part of the discussion, and I get resistance, so I fight back hard.
When I encounter less resistance, then I can present my side of the canon story much better.
I defend myself from all sorts of attacks and distortions, and then accused of making the thread about me. I am tired of me. Let's talk canon.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
It gets boring watching you bang your head against the same wall from different angles.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
The other day, I saw a guy banging his head against the wall. "Sir", I said, "That looks horribly painful." "Oh, it is, it really is'.", he assured me. "Why, then, do you continue to do it?" , I questioned. "Well", he said, "It just feels so darn good when I stop."
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Please remember, this is a beta testing of my theory and the large collection of verses I found.
I value the testing of these items here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
And, by the same token, you must realize there are some things WE will not budge on.
As for me:
Do I believe God would have entrusted what you claim was the most important revelation since the bible itself with a man who defined sin and refused to repent? Not God as I understand him in the bible.
Do I believe PLAF is God breathe? Seems to me something God breathe would work. After 40 years of failure, I can honestly say it doesn't work.
In a prior post on this thread, you said we didn't try your postulates. Au contraire, most of the people taking part in this thread are class grads, so we have tried the bulk of your postulates and found them lacking.
So your going to force them back because you know what's better for them than they do, right?
Oh, and if you're experiencing distortions, your responsible for your communication. It's not my responsibility to guess what you mean. If you're not getting the results you want find a better way to transmit the message.
Edited by So_cratesLink to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Do you really expect me to believe you have a beta anything going on here besides trying to push people into your point of view at all costs?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
PROJECT UPDATE
1972: Alpha testing begins.
2022: Beta testing begins.
2072: Projected release date
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Guilty by association - old subway tokens might be mistaken for pennies…and that’s just as scary cuz you don’t know where that subway token has been…
sorry So_crates I couldn’t resist a good setup …back to the regularly scheduled program
Edited by T-BoneAs a token of my appreciation here’s a few pennies
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
noun
A collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine
Canon Cambridge Dictionary
noun
The writings or other works that are generally agreed to begood, important, and worth studying.
Canon Merriam-Webster Dictionary
noun
a: an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture
b: the authentic works of a writer
c: a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
A secret weapon is needed to take this beyond beta.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
That’s uncanny - you have a sixth cents
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Some people just don’t know any beta
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
One at a time, of course. That's how (H-O-W) I get the upper hand.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Dig that...that's why I got beta ways to spend .my time...got beta cents than that. Psycho alpha disco beta bio-aqua do loop...got me quoting George Clinton and Parliament Funkadelics now .. yeah
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Well you gotta start somewhere…now we’re getting into the hidden history of the farthing…let’s break that down fart + hing
Second part sounds like cha-ching- someone says something dumb
I fart - cha-ching - and say here’s a penny for your thoughts.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
noun
A collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine
Canon Cambridge Dictionary
noun
The writings or other works that are generally agreed to begood, important, and worth studying.
Canon Merriam-Webster Dictionary
noun
a: an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture
b: the authentic works of a writer
c: a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Just in case you weren't reading your post:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Just in case you weren't reading your post it says:
Canon Merriam-Webster Dictionary noun
a: an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture
b: the authentic works of a writer
c: a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works
The most authoritative list would be one the AUTHOR (God) and or His helpers who wrote it for Him, the ones we see physically as AUTHORS (the apostles).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.